Here is a fantastic and detailed chart showing the quantity in sales, based on each of the key retail componants at the moment, a solo artist has to generate each month in order to make 'minimum wage'.

http://mashable.com/2010/04/15/music-artists-earn-online-infographic/

THE KBK ... This is the last known signal. We offer Sanctuary.

www.thekbk.com
http://www.deepeddy.net/artists/thekbk/
www.reverbnation.com/thekbk
www.facebook.com/thekbkal

That's interesting that it would vary that much from two Southern states (NC & Ala)?

All original does create a different dynamic. That said, nobody hardly recognizes or format anyway. With the exception of a few older cats in the audience most wouldn't know if we were playing an original or Surf cover.

I often have younger people come up and ask if the music we play is all original and I always try and educate them and steer them in the direction of the pioneers of Surf.

Most just like what they hear!

METEOR IV on reverbnation

Last edited: Jun 19, 2012 22:21:58

Read this:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/allsongs/2012/06/16/154863819/i-never-owned-any-music-to-begin-with

And then read this:

http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/letter-to-emily-white-at-npr-all-songs-considered/

That's David Lowery of Camper Van Beethoven and Cracker fame.

Ted James
Deep Eddy Records http://www.deepeddy.net
The Nematoads http://www.nematoads.com

I hadn't read the letter originally, but David Lowery sums it up better than I could ever hope to!
For me, he puts it best when he encapsulates the general prevailing attitude as:
"Networks: Giant mega corporations. Cool! have some money!

Hardware: Giant mega corporations. Cool! have some money!

Artists: 99.9 % lower middle class. Screw you, you greedy bastards!"

Because of illeagal downloading I have personally seen a decline in my income. I believe I've mentioned it before in another thresd, or maybe even this one, but it bears repeating: In 2005 Alternative Tentacles released two anthologies of one of my old punk bands. They sold very well and netted me at least $600-$800 per year, or something like that. Money which I used in part to finance my current music. As of two years ago these records were deleted by Alternative Tentacles as a direct result of piracy and illicit downloading. They're still downloadable from ITunes, but I don't receive anymore money. Why? Both albums are available for free from about 20 different blogs and file-sharing sites. That's why. This is criminal. Here's one of them:
http://degenerik666.blogspot.com/2012/01/nausea-punk-terrorist-anthology-vol2.html
I wish that were the end of it, but... Within two months of releasing the second Coffin Daggers album, it was posted on about three russian torrent sites for free (that I've found to date!). We hadn't even sold 100 copies yet!
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3782238
http://myzuka.ru/Song/2489943/The-Coffin-Daggers-Monsters-From-The-Id
http://muz-vk.ru/Coffin+Daggers++The.html (this one has our entire catalog for free!!!!! ) Please don't steal our music - I'm only posting this as an example Remember: If your band releases music, this could easily happen to you. Some people actually feel entitled to steal your stuff.

I'm sick of all the justifications and rationalizations. Anybody in a band on this board can tell you there is no money in touring and live shows. What's left? T-shirts? I've no interest in being in the apparel business. Something's gotta give. This situation can't continue.

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

Last edited: Jun 21, 2012 14:24:49

I cannot find the link at the moment, but there was a response to Mr. Lowreys letter that brought up some very good points. I will post it as soon as I can.

One thing he pointed out was that with the rise of streaming services like Spotify and Last FM, there has actually been a sharp decline in torrent downloads for music. This is a good thing indeed.

This does lead to the important factor though. Major labels have realized the value of these streaming services and have adjusted their business model, as it seems that, at least for the moment, this is the future of music distribution. Now the battle that is being waged currently in courts to re-negotiate artists percentage to a fair level that is comparable to that the received during the days of physical distribution has to be won.

Victor, I have realized that physical media is very difficult to sell these days. Our EP has sold quite well, but that is mostly due to sales at shows, coupled with the amount of travel and shows we have done since its release. As far as the retail end of things goes, we have made 10-1 through digital sales. Of those, I would say that at least 30% have been royalties from streaming services.

THE KBK ... This is the last known signal. We offer Sanctuary.

www.thekbk.com
http://www.deepeddy.net/artists/thekbk/
www.reverbnation.com/thekbk
www.facebook.com/thekbkal

Psychonaut, it breaks my heats to write this, because I appreciate so much what professional musicians do, and I think they should be rewarded (at least as plastic surgeons are ).
Music is not food or water, one can live without it, but bringing joy to people is a noble thing. A thing that is and was very hard to monetize and make a profit from.

Things were f***ed up before, the file-sharing just exposes that. Nothing is new though in terms of morality, and I disagree with the assumption that morals are changing to adapt to new technology. Things are generally wrong in this world. Truth is - many people, more than what we'd like to admit, will steal (and loot, rape and murder) when they know they can't get caught. Internet just provides a means, and it has affected all industries, all commerce, all walks of life. The world has changed, and it will not go back.

The solution is long and hard, same as the problem is ages old. It never can be about policing and restricting people (even though it is necessary, because anarchy sucks), the real solution is education, and figuring out the basic moral issues of copyright. You'd think they had it down by now, but no, it's a mess, controlled by the big boys. Power and money = corruption. They tricked you, they tricked us all. Like you said, it's the little people that eventually suffer.
It will take a lot of time (if at all) until a fair and accepted system is the norm.

It is too big - you shut down Megaupload, a dozen Russian and Chinese sites pop up. SOPA was/is a bad idea, a knee jerk reaction by politicians who's own morals are questionable. No, they don't care about you, they care about their public image and bank account.

It's not a solution, but I think it should be encouraged: Offer downloads yourself, for free on your site, low quality mp3's. Charge a reasonable amount for lossless format. (just like the Phantom Four did for their latest). Give the option to donate. Work the new media to your advantage, built a crowd, a true following, and hopefully you'd salvage something. At least that way, you'll have some kind of direct connection with your listeners, not some anonymous blog. When people are presented with an option like that, the are more likely to do the right thing.
I see you have already implemented some of those ideas in your site, but maybe you'd want to take it up a notch. It's all you can do really, so do it, do what you can. Put a direct link to your site in your signature here, myspace is not enough.

So you don't want to get into apparel business? Tuff luck, because it's either that, or having less money. Don't be mad, I'm just telling it the way it is. Sucks.

You can't fight the internet, you can't be pissed about it, it doesn't care. Get over it. Yeah it's not right, people steal, deal with it. The media world is changing, make the best of it and live your life, do music for the love. Again, it breaks my heart, but you can't just stay pissed, it will ruin you.

Last edited: Jun 21, 2012 16:33:02

I'm sorry, I know my previous post was a bit offensive, but I hoped to get something deeper across and took the chance anyway. My English is limited in terms of expression, so that doesn't contribute. But some things need to be said.

It's not about how we think things should be ideally, it about what we do now to make the most of it. People are being exploited all around the world, killed for no reason at all, terrorism, tyrannical regimes, massive injustices. Musicians are a lovely bunch, but have some perspective, man. Some very talented, righteous people around the world don't even have the resources to open a website or own a Fender. That doesn't mean that you have to accept injustice, even at the smallest amount, no way, just realize the world is f***ed, and some of it affect you too. To change it, the roots of the problem needs to be fixed, from the source, stealing online is just the consequence of it, and by "it" I mean overall bad morals that are integral part of the human nature. We always have to resent it, but it's here to stay, one way or another. Online piracy a symptom, not the disease.

psychonaut wrote:

So nothing should be done?

Like I said, do what you can.

I shouldn't be pissed at having my life's work pilfered?

I humbly think, preferably not. Sadly, you don't have anyone you can punch in the face in this situation. Go on, rant on the internet if it makes you feel better, we'll all hug and feel sorry for ourselves. Find me an enemy and I'll join you. I'm on your side man, I feel you, and like I said before, if it was up to me you'd be rewarded for your creation much more money than you even think you're worth.

Sorry, but telling me to "get over it" is a pretty offensive remark considering that I'm referring to literally every note of music I've ever commercially released is being stolen.

You're not the only one that is offended and pissed. Total businesses have collapsed. Don't blame the messenger. It's your private choice to get over it or not, and this choice doesn't change reality, just how you feel. It's good to feel bad only when you rage is realistically useful, when it doesn't have a practical target it always turns upon you. Again, if someone steals your amp at a gig, I'm sure you'd track him and punish him, I fully support it. If a Russian site exploits your work, there is nothing you can do. Send an e-mail, a thousand e-mails. Shutting down the internet is not a solution. Not going to happen. All that's left, is how you feel. Enraging, I know. All things pass, I believe in the goodness of mankind, but it will take time. Meanwhile we have to adapt, whatever it takes. Bad times for musicians, there were better times, now it's bad times. I believe it's a cycle.

Are you saying that because people steal it should be allowed and that the victim shouldn't have a righteous indignation?

No way, of course it shouldn't be allowed. But there is no authority here to impose the rules. It's Mad Max baby. You, we, suffer the consequences of a world in change. I'm not telling you to shut up, just to be careful, sometimes legit righteousness leads to even worse reactions, like SOPA etc. Your paths of constructive reaction are ,sadly, very limited here. That you must accept, and do what you can and forget about what you can't. IMHO.

A band or musician cannot support their career by just selling t-shirts (which by the way also get bootlegged).

Not just, but it's something. Get all you can get, it's a war out there, if you don't do it, no one will do it for you. Your energy is wasted just being angry, you need it to survive.

Being pissed about this doesn't ruin me, being prevented from making a lively hood from my talents and abilities does.

No, it doesn't. It certainly sucks, but ruin? Everyday people I know are injured and/or killed by animal terrorists. American economy is still spiraling down, people are losing their houses. We overcome. You're hopefully healthy, you got a band and Fenders and you're rocking on stages. Your life is better than 90% of the world's population. Guess what, no one promised you anything, success is rare, and most people don't even get the chances that you got. I'm not degrading the injustice that is being done to you, it is real, but ruin is something different, much different.

Also, the russian torrent sites are already offering our music in a lossless format.

Everybody is getting screwed over. Do what you can. Phantom Four did, wisely. I don't know how much revenue they got, it's instro music after all, but they offered an easy, direct way to get the losless from them. CD baby doesn't provide, so you provide it. Steal your customers back, whatever it takes.

Passive acceptance is not a solution.

Do what you can. (You see a pattern here?) What you can't do is shut down the Internet. Not because it's not right, it just isn't possible. You can barely even police it, and by you I man governments.

Sorry for offending you, I'm trying to philosophize this thing. Looking at the big picture may help us live with this, and continue creating wonderful things, because theft is an old old thing, and is here to stay, and can't fight human nature, but you can direct it, and it takes time.

I fully accept your moral standpoint. It's not about that. Because I like my Surf comrades, I want them to hang on, but I can't offer a solution, just some words that may give a better understanding of this reality: Lord Humungus is approaching, it's time to salvage all the food water and fuel we can, because he shows no mercy. When fighting is an option, I'm always at the front line, I'll kick his ass. But in this case he's much, much stronger than us. We have no chance. Time to crawl into a cave, protect what's crucial to our livelihood, and hopefully when he passes we'll still have some crops left. Reality stinks, don't it?

Peace.

Last edited: Jun 21, 2012 18:54:05

psychonaut wrote:

I hadn't read the letter originally, but David Lowery sums it up better than I could ever hope to!
For me, he puts it best when he encapsulates the general prevailing attitude as:
"Networks: Giant mega corporations. Cool! have some money!

Hardware: Giant mega corporations. Cool! have some money!

Artists: 99.9 % lower middle class. Screw you, you greedy bastards!"

Because of illeagal downloading I have personally seen a decline in my income. I believe I've mentioned it before in another thresd, or maybe even this one, but it bears repeating: In 2005 Alternative Tentacles released two anthologies of one of my old punk bands. They sold very well and netted me at least $600-$800 per year, or something like that. Money which I used in part to finance my current music. As of two years ago these records were deleted by Alternative Tentacles as a direct result of piracy and illicit downloading. They're still downloadable from ITunes, but I don't receive anymore money. Why? Both albums are available for free from about 20 different blogs and file-sharing sites. That's why. This is criminal. Here's one of them:
http://degenerik666.blogspot.com/2012/01/nausea-punk-terrorist-anthology-vol2.html
I wish that were the end of it, but... Within two months of releasing the second Coffin Daggers album, it was posted on about three russian torrent sites for free (that I've found to date!). We hadn't even sold 100 copies yet!
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3782238
http://myzuka.ru/Song/2489943/The-Coffin-Daggers-Monsters-From-The-Id
http://muz-vk.ru/Coffin+Daggers++The.html (this one has our entire catalog for free!!!!! ) Please don't steal our music - I'm only posting this as an example Remember: If your band releases music, this could easily happen to you. Some people actually feel entitled to steal your stuff.

I'm sick of all the justifications and rationalizations. Anybody in a band on this board can tell you there is no money in touring and live shows. What's left? T-shirts? I've no interest in being in the apparel business. Something's gotta give. This situation can't continue.

Victor, This makes me sick,
I have a couple older Coffin Daggers cds, that I bought in stores,
or in music buys from people selling their stuff off.
I know I need to get the new one, and maybe a couple others.
But I would never dream of downloading them from a site like those above.
Sorry to hear about the parasites out there.
I feel for ya.
Me and a few friends are anti downloading people, probably last of a dying breed.

Jeff(bigtikidude)

I won't pirate music in which I don't already own a physical copy. I download what I buy so I don't have to rip it or enter a download code.

I buy A LOT of new records of stuff I've never really heard.

I will NEVER pay for a digital download. I will start pirating if there is ever a lack of a physical product. Nor would I expect others to pay for a digital download of my or anybody else's music.

However, I support people who pirate and I support the Russian/Chinese pirates. Well... I sympathize with them. I'm an American with a job, I can afford to buy records and try things out. Do you think people all across Europe can? And if they can, can they afford the added shipping fees associated with buying a record? You have affluent people and parts of a good portion of countries, but as Americans with jobs, what percentage of rich are we in the world? Top 25% for sure, and probably more like top 10%.

Personally, I'm absolutely pleased to know my work has been listened to in numerous countries around the world. Hopefully they kept the download and listen to it every now and then. If they wanted to download just to try it, please do! And if they wanted to keep it, I'm honored.

Making a living/any money in a surf band is almost laughable. It is a passionate hobby. If I wanted to make money at it, I'd be touring year round and treating it like a full-time job: rehearsing, doing PR, blanketing towns in flyers, making connections. If you do not do that, your band will never make a living. That is, four to five members being able to support a family, living with parents not counting.

Psychonaut, you shouldn't let it bother you and you need to feed proud that people regard your music enough to download it. Somebody in Europe discovered your plankton sized album in a vast ocean. That is incredible! Surf music is just a niche, and you made a dent were there once was not.

Passive acceptance isn't a solution, but will you try aggressive acceptance? Get out there and tour the fuck out of Europe and other places that are listening to your music. That is how you make money out of music, touring and selling merch. Not playing locally and expecting internet sales to come in from around the world.

CaptainThunder wrote:

I just hook the laptop up to the speakers and go find stuff on YouTube. Can usually hear awesome songs and there's no downloading or pirating anything. I'll often buy something from iTunes after I heard it on YouTube first. It's the best PR I can think of for a band to gain worldwide exposure. CD's just eat up space, however I don't think I'd part with my Ventures vinyl:)

To me, no different than downloading off of a file sharing site or from a website/rapidshare. If you buy it, great! And I'm not judging, people need to hear about music somehow, otherwise nobody would listen to anything not on the radio.

File sharing and youtube listening allows people to cater to their own personal music tastes, or rather allows one to shape and form their own musical taste.