Fady, what you write makes a lot of sense. However, as I'm sure you're aware of, 99% of people in surf music do this as a hobby, not as a business. I looked at many of the suggestions you made on how to sell more CDs, etc. When I look at that stuff, I think to myself - that's a shitload of more work. And I just don't have the time or the energy. It's a real struggle for everybody in my band to find the time to perform one weekend a month, to write and learn new songs, and especially to record a full-album's worth of music and make it sound good. Our time is completely max-ed out, and then some, just doing that.

I completely understand that today more than ever in order to have any success as a musician, you really have to be a businessman just as much as a musician. I think that MoAM are a shining example when it comes to that. And as an economist, I appreciate that, and respect it. But as a musician, I'll be completely honest, I resent the hell out of it. (Just to be clear, my resentment is entirely about the reality of the situation - and thus utterly futile - and not any one person, or band, or entity, or whatever.) I have a good job that I love, and make a good living. My expectations for my music hobby are not very high. Yet, those even those low expectations are dashed to bits quite often. I don't expect to have huge success, or even moderate success. But it's so damn hard to do well enough just to make it all worthwhile. I often wonder how much longer I want to keep doing this. I worked very hard to be a good musician, I work very hard to make the best music that I can, but it's clearly not enough - and I can't help but be resentful over it.

I guess ultimately when it comes to music, I don't want to be a businessman and I don't want to be an 'entertainer', I just want to be a musician - and therefore, I'm doomed. I over and over hope that within this small community of surf music fans, there will be enough that will appreciate our music to make it worthwhile to go through all the effort. But I'm often disappointed. The fact is that recording our albums is completely a vanity project at this point. We do not make anywhere close to enough money to pay for it all, nevermind the time we put into it. Given that we get such raving reviews from so many people, it's hard not to somehow feel shortchanged. I don't know how much of that is due to pirating vs. the market being too small vs. increasing apathy of the music-buying public, or whatever else may be at work here. But it's hard not get discouraged.

BTW, Sean can give you more details about BNS, but from my perspective it was a disappointment. It did not accomplish what I had hoped it would, not even close. I had hoped that surf music fans would snatch it up in droves and then be inspired to check out the bands on them and buy more of their stuff, that it would create some excitement about the remarkably creative state of modern surf music. I know that's happened a few times, but I don't think very much. Again, hard not feel disappointed, since I put a huge amount of time into it, making sure everything is perfect, getting the liner notes just right, etc.

I guess this is why I sometimes gripe that so many people on SG101 are more interested in plopping down bucks on replacement pickups for their AVRI Jag (which will have next to no impact on how they sound) rather than actually checking out new surf bands and buying more CDs. It's frustrating. I don't feel like in general the self-professed surf music fans are really all that supportive of modern surf bands (though of course, there are many that truly are - but given how many people post on SG101 and how many post in the gear forum in particular, CD sales just do not reflect those kinds of numbers.

But hey, cry me a river, life's tough, ain't it.... But I'll second Victor - this has probably been the most depressing thread on SG101 ever.

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Sean, Ivan. Thanks for your quick posts and comments on a number of fronts. I'm glad I didn't get a big F.U. right back

Ivan - I think you've clearly articulated your expectations (not a business), and I think you've mostly been content with what it is. That's the key. Sure, we all hope and dream for a big breakthrough (another Pulp Fiction wave?), but short of unexpected luck, it doesn't come without the effort.

Sean - again, please don't take this as personal shots (you've not so far, so thank you!) You've just confirmed most of what I'd hoped not to hear if the objective of the BNS project is/was to expand the market, taking surf to a new audience. There are only so many fish in this barrel. BNS needs to swim in different waters and, IMO, the vast majority of time/effort/money/focus for the project should be elsewhere - and probably not radio. Remember Slacktone in Slim Jim commercials? What about Broadcasters for intro/outtro's of the X-Games or related high energy sport events? Piggy back on the SoCal/Hollywood crowd to find the next break through film? Buddy up with PacSun, Hollister, A&F, Urban Outfitters (etc.) - or even Surf Brands like Quicksliver, Billabong, Hurley, etc to do promo give away of BNS for any swimsuit purchase this summer? Rainbow, Havaianas, or Reef flip-flops sold?

Different results take different approaches.

Fady

El Mirage @ ReverbNation

Like Ivan said, it takes hooking up with a large publishing company to get into some of the stuff you mentioned. As someone with a full time job and wife and kids, I don't have the time to do it myself. It would also take a lot of money to get those kind of deals - publishing and licensing companies don't work for free, nor do they guarantee results. Even when we had a bunch of our music played on MTV's Real World series, it did not result in an increase in sales. The only thing it really did was allow the bands to say "we were played on MTV" and perhaps that helped them get gigs.

There are just so many songs competing to get licensing deals. In cases where film/TV/video/video game production companies are looking for surf music, I would imagine that they already have plenty of songs in their libraries to choose from. Not usually from bands we know and love, but commercial/studio musicians that record 15 - 60 seconds snippits of surf music created solely for commercial use. When bands do get their music used, it's usually because someone in the creative process is a fan of a band or a song, and has it in mind specifically to fit into the project being worked on.

Sadly, these days surf music is not in high demand, especially if the media project doesn't involve a beach. It's all about pop these days - Nikki Minaj, Kelly Clarkson, Justin Bieber, etc...

The best I can do, with limited time in a resources, is just spread the word as best I can to as many people as possible. Hopefully it connects with people in the right places, leading to a licensing deal. If it doesn't though, I'm still just happy if a CD we put out sells well enough for us to make the next CD. Despite all of the hours I pour into the label, the most satisfying thing to me is working with people and bands that I love, releasing music that people enjoy throughout the world. So what if I make less than $5/hour doing it (if I'm lucky...) - the money part of it is really not the top of my priority list of the label. Having said that, I can't have it lose money - it is it's own thing and I do not dip into our family funds to finance the label. Unfortunately it's getting to the point where I have the funds coming in to finance releases, but not do much else in the way of advertising and promotion. Thankfully there is a dedicated group of surf fans, as well as long-time loyal customers, that keep the label going. But there is a scary trend at the moment, and I'd be lying if I was 100% convinced that I'll be able to keep it going beyond the next year or two. It could just be a switch to focusing more on the Continental Magazine, who knows. I don't seem myself ever walking away from the community completely, but if people stop buying CD's that's obviously going to have a serious affect on whether we can release stuff in the future or not.

I also look at our inventory of past releases and think - wow, there is still a lot of it to sell! Perhaps it's time to mark down some of our older releases further and move it on out.

Sean
Double Crown Records
www.doublecrownrecords.com

Surf CD's / Vinyl / Fanzines / DVD's
Aloha Screwdriver - Lunar Wobble CD
The Nebulas - Euphorion LP / CD
Supertubos - The Fourth Drive CD
Continental Magazine - Issue #38 w/17 Song CD

"increasing apathy of the music-buying public..."

i think this is a huge part of it. like ivan, and is true with me, i lived, breathed music from the time i was around 10 years old. i spent every penny i had on music for years. i don't see this with any of the kids today, my son included. i know he shares music with his friends but the majority of what he listens to comes from my music collection, all of which i have paid for.

i have no idea what the solution is.

www.surfintheeye.com

IvanP wrote:

To finish this, and bring it back to pirating: I do wonder sometimes if free access to so much music has made music somehow lesser for most people. It seems that it doesn't play as important part in people's lives anymore, though I could be wrong about that.

No, I think your observation is totally correct. That is the real siginificant change that the internet brought to music. The free omnipresence of favorized music devalued it in the mind of the consumer. We older guys are closer to the spiritual origins of music, where music was first only performed as part of ceremonies and such.

What to do about it? Destroy business models that rely on not compensating labour. That’s what Lincoln would have done anyway.

I gather many of you don’t see it as labour. But you will not be able to pass that torch of passion to a future generation.

The Exotic Guitar of Kahuna Kawentzmann

You can get the boy out of the Keynes era, but you can’t get the Keynes era out of the boy.

Last edited: Jun 25, 2012 00:58:01

from what i see everywhere i go, the younger kids are too busy texting each other to pay any attention to anything going on around them. i see it all day long in my store, mostly with the girls. they walk in, head down, phone in hand, texting, sometimes to each other. it's so weird.

www.surfintheeye.com

IvanP wrote:

Have you thought about trying to help a surf band out there, in terms of offering to manage them and promote them? ... Given that you seem to have some inclination for this stuff, you might want to consider giving that a shot. Just a thought.

You know, that thought has crossed my mind on more than one occasion.

IvanP wrote:

To finish this, and bring it back to pirating: I do wonder sometimes if free access to so much music has made music somehow lesser for most people. It seems that it doesn't play as important part in people's lives anymore, though I could be wrong about that. But to me, music has been basically holy since I was about ten. It's really been my religion. It's played an incredibly important part in my life. It seems that this is also the case for much if not even most of my generation (Generation X), amd the previous generation (the Baby Boomers). Is that the case for Generation Y or the Millenials?

I'd echo Jake's comments about music not being less of a role in ones life. I'd say it is at least equal to past generations, possibly more. As the economist, you must appreciate the point Billboard guest writer Jay Frank makes in that response post.

Jay Frank wrote

The primary "other factor" is the fact that there are too many artists competing for shrinking dollars, largely due to the shift from albums to singles. Despite the economic number that David Lowery quoted of the number of professional musicians falling by 25%, if you took "album releases" as an indicator, it seems like the number of pros has increased. In a decade, we've gone from about 30,000 albums being released to over 77,000 last year. And that's just albums going thru legit channels.

That "supply side" story is staggering. More music, portability, ease of access, growing music "libraries/collections" ... and yet still just 24 hours in a day. Time/value per song is clearly dropping like a rock, but that doesn't mean time/value per day or week spent on music by today's youth has.

IvanP wrote

We may have to face the fact that the relationship between people and music is changing and that music will play a less important role in people's lives for the foreseeable future. This is the part that I find the most disheartening. But life is change, isn't it, and each generation as it gets older bemoans some of the ways in which the world changes, nothing new here....

Same as above, I'd offer that Music is not less important on the whole to younger generations. They simply have much, much more access (supply) so the relative value to any one song has got to be lower on average. And back to Jay Franks numbers for a second; I find it hard to argue that music is less important to society if annual "official releases" have increased by more than 2x in the last 10 years. I assure you high school and college kids still have a soundtrack to their senior year, or summer, or romance... A few years from now, they will have those moments of "Oh Snap! This song takes me right back to ..."

For example, I'm pretty sure more than a few of these people (98% of whom probably couldn't name more than 3 songs in the set) will have a Summer of 2012 memory that includes this day:

fenderfan wrote:

It was an outstanding afternoon at a big condo complex, with excellent photos by the one and only Tuck, who also was invaluable with his gear assistance on a 102 degree day...

raito wrote:

Onslow_Beach wrote:

or even Surf Brands like Quicksliver, Billabong, Hurley, etc to do promo give away of BNS for any swimsuit purchase this summer?

Surf merchandise is no longer sold (if it ever was) using surf music. It's sold using the sort of music the demographic is listening to. Check out ANY of the advertisements on surfline.com. Not one note is surf.

I'm not suggesting that people would buy a bathing suit or flip flops because what you or I would define as Surf is the carrot telling them to buy. The thinking is that the best chance of getting someone to listen to you is when they want to hear you - getting the timing and context right is critical.

Someone buying a new swimsuit for the summer season that is upon us, or a spiffy new pair of flip flops is someone most likely thinking about summer fun, time at the pool or beach, their favorite cold beverage and a hammock or whatever. If our "surf" music was ever going to have a shot at an unsuspecting new audience, I'd put my chips on someone in this state of mind. Give 'em a promo copy of BNS when they walk out the door with one of those items in hand.

I do appreciate the TV/Movie/Hollywood licensing challenges. I'm just thinking about proximity as an asset. So Cal, Hollywood, people in the industry digging the scene (where has Norm been lately anyways?). Same could be said for Wilmington NC by the way - long standing cottage industry for major film studios. As the old adage goes... sometimes it's just who you know.

Fady

El Mirage @ ReverbNation

Last post, until responses come in...I promise...

As many of you know, KBK has decided to take the Deep Eddy offer and release our next record through the label. We could not be more excited. No, it is not a big label, but Ted is a standup guy and has a good history.

Over the past year I have gotten to know him pretty well. We have shared many ideas. The most important thing we have discussed(to no end) is the importance of the relationship between a label and its bands.

We are dealing with small labels that in no way have the resources of larger ones. They can usually only afford to press a record and do limited promotion. No, for a band this isn't ideal. There would be nothing better than to have a label that could afford recording costs, extensive promotion and even furnishing a touring vehicle. It is just not the case.

My question is now, what are the bands that are working for your label doing to help you? Do they simply record and let you release it, playing a handful of shows after and depend on you to do the promotion? Even more, do the bands you put out tour as much as possible? Do they have a very active social network presence?

These are of utmost importance. While I know that everyone that starts a label dreams of just putting out the music they love, this is not the most wise thing to do. Many things need to be taken into account. The most important thing is signing artists that have a product for which there is a demand or the potential to create a demand. After that comes the question of if the band has the ability and the drive to go out and sell the product. Some of the best bands I have ever known had ZERO potential to sell records because they simply would not or could not get out on the road to reach audiences.

Lastly, what are the bands you do have doing to help spread the name of the label, not just their own band? KBK started branding every piece of promotional material with the Deep Eddy logo. We added the name to our Merch Table banner. Even more, we are now making attempts to spread other Deep Eddy materials while we are out playing. As of the two surf fests we have this coming weekend, our table will not only include our own products, but we will also be selling the 4 most recent Deep Eddy releases. Our hope is that the other current and future Deep Eddy bands will start doing the same.

THE KBK ... This is the last known signal. We offer Sanctuary.

www.thekbk.com
http://www.deepeddy.net/artists/thekbk/
www.reverbnation.com/thekbk
www.facebook.com/thekbkal

Ah, Noah, if only every other band shared your great attitude and drive. I am very grateful for all you do.

I get emails and letters, usually accompanied with CDs, all the time from bands of all genres hoping for a record deal and help with artist development. One band said that they will be moving to Austin soon and wanted to affiliate with a label to help them build their following and presence and turn them into something big. I told them first of all that they're going about it all wrong. No label big or small is going to express an interest in a band that doesn't at least have some kind of proven track record. Maybe they have great songs and can get a development deal based on their songwriting. I've seen it happen, but it's rare. Realistically, they need to work hard at developing their own following, first locally and then regionally. They need to become masters of self-promotion. If they can sell a few thousand CDs on their own and get some decent press and airplay, maybe play some big festivals, etc., they are more likely to draw a label's attention. Or not. Anything's possible, buy I always tell bands that, as one of my many managers here at the state gubment is fond of saying, they need to manage their own careers. If you sit around waiting for someone else to do it for you, it'll never get done...unless you pay them.

Regarding the compilation releases, we give them to people that buy our full CD at shows. Buy a Nematoads CD, get a free comp. Here's 23 other bands that play surf music, and they all have their own sounds. If you like a band, track 'em down and order their full CD.

Perhaps we need rename this thread...

Ted James
Deep Eddy Records http://www.deepeddy.net
The Nematoads http://www.nematoads.com

A couple of thoughts:

The product here, "music" is unlike others in that it is a creative creation that you "buy" but do not own. I think most people don't understand what it is they get when they "buy" music and because the strict enforcement of the nebulous legalities of "ownership" are unrealistic , people can more easily rationalize unauthorized downloading.

My second observation is that for most younger consumers, music does not hold the same meaning it did for us older...uh...more experienced folks. Music is very disposable to kids and they add and delete songs from their digital media quite freely whereas we grew up carefully handling the physical media (LPs) which we saved allowances, etc. to buy. If you were a teenager now without the benefit of the artist's perspective, can you say you wouldn't have joined your friends in downloading? After all, it's in the teen spirit to rebel against authority.

This brings me to point three which is that most people do not have unlimited budgets for music and are not likely to buy something unless they know they like it. I don't believe unauthorized downloads are one-for-one lost revenue because if consumers were making an economic decision there would be far fewer downloads.

This last point is where there is both opportunity and anguish because while unauthorized downloading might erode your revenue base, it also results in your music reaching a wider audience.

I don't have a solution to unathorized downloading, but it strikes me that the revenue models of many businesses have had to change with advances in technology and I wonder if we are just now in that state of flux where the music industry is morphing into something new. I hope the new business model will serve the artist better.

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