BayState wrote:

Onslow_Beach wrote:

Changing the game is the solution. I happen to agree with that being a pretty viable one - especially for this genre.

As a home player/hobbyist I loved this idea from your link

"Pull a Ventures move; bundle "Learn to Play With" - this genre is one of a select few that I think would actually be able to pull this off (again!) - just think what % of the core listener base plays or tries to play this music - it's a massive asset to this market."

As someone who pretty much only buys digital these days I would definitely buy physical media if it included sheet music or tab for even a few of the songs. Playing by ear is something I struggle with. That added value would be the sort of incentive that would get me to buy a CD or LP.

I like digital for the convenience and the fact that it is cheaper. I buy all my music through emusic.com. Surf is pretty much $5.99 for a full disc or .49 a track. Why aren't more artists or labels offering their own downloads for sale? I would rather pay $5.99 directly to Double Crown, Deep Eddy, or the band than to emusic. Is it simply for fear of making digital copies available?

Most of (not to compilations) the Deep Eddy Records catalog is available for digital download via CD Baby as well as all 40+ digital retailers (iTunes, etc.) affiliated with CD Baby. I've thought about trying to sell these songs digitally myself, but I just don't have the time to manage it. A day job combined with family, band, etc., makes it impossible to do everything myself. Just packaging and mailing CDs takes up an incredible amount of time each week. If I had to create and email mp3s and album art and such, I'd never get anything else done. I need an intern or something... I would love to be able to offer more, though.

Ted James
Deep Eddy Records http://www.deepeddy.net
The Nematoads http://www.nematoads.com

Here is the link to the Phantom Four album with the "name your price". Bandcamp is the service. I don't know anything about it, other than as a consumer I think it is awesome.

http://thephantomfour.bandcamp.com/album/morgana

Site dude - S3 Agent #202
Need help with the site? SG101 FAQ - Send me a private message - Email me

"It starts... when it begins" -- Ralf Kilauea

matt wrote:

Bandcamp is tremendous. very easy to use, and you can customize things to a huge degree. I've both bought & sold music with them, love it.

Agreed. Bandcamp has worked well for Rev Hank & USK. Inspired by the Phantom Four, I put Longhorn up with a name your price option, plus 2 free songs. http://reverbranch.bandcamp.com/album/longhorn

Rev

Canadian Surf

http://www.urbansurfkings.com/

DreadInBabylon wrote:

Very good points, Brian. I also wanted to mention Louie CK (even though his market is way, way bigger than a surf band's), but I believe this kind of thing will grow, and eventually will be the norm, for independent artists at least.

Basic morals dictates that if someone doesn't want his thing shared, then it's his right not to share it.

Sure, but let me raise a philosophical question:
If there's a lit candle, and many other candles are then lit from the same candle, do they subtract something from it?
That's more or less the issue with media, especially digital. It only subtracts income from the artist if someone was going to buy it but the availability of illegal download makes him not do that. That's very hard to prove statistically. On all other cases, it's exposure (that may lead to future purchase), and that's a good thing.

I can can tell you with absolute certainty that in my case, digital piracy HAS reduced my income, to the tune of $600 to $800 per year from two specific albums. That's what I was earning, now... nothing. Zero $$. Since that band no longer exists and hasn't for over 20 years, none of the 'sell the music directly from your website' workarounds apply, nor does the band camp suggestion -- These particular recordings are commercially released by Alternative Tentacles who legally own the distribution rights, and already sell downloads directly from their website. The lost revenue also affects them, their employees, and any bands they might have signed had the money been available. We're not talking Geffen, Atlantic, or Warner Bros. here either, AT was one of the pioneers and leaders of the indy movement -- They're not a big company, they don't bear the loss lightly.

All these suggestions are fine for small semi-pro indy bands, but what about life-long professionals that are having their entire catalog pilfered?

It's not at all hard to download illegally as Jake mentioned above. Just google almost any album with the word blog after it and you'll probably find it readily available. The downlaods are hosted on sites such as Fileserve, Depositfiles, Uploading, etc... doesn't take longer than 10 mins or so to find and download, and many are in CD quality FLAC format.
If it were only a case of friends sharing songs, there wouldn't be an issue -- However when you publicly post something for anyone in the world to freely take, you Will affect legal sales. The 'they wouldn't buy it anyway' argument is false in my opinion. You state that downloading may lead to a future purchase. How can this be if "they wouldn't have bought it in the first place"? The reason people steal music is because they can get away with it period. If they couldn't steal it they would have no choice but to buy it so the argument is specious. I don't believe nothing can be done. There are already loads of international copyright laws and treaties on the books already that cover this, as well as telecommunications rules and standards, why they're not enforced is beyond me. I think that a lot of people justifying and rationalizing piracy would have a much different opinion on the topic if it were them being robbed.

Do we really want to live in a world of shitty home recorded mp3's by hobbiest bands that have to work day jobs and can only play part time?
I don't see how anyone can be a career musician in this enviorment.

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

BTD, sometimes it makes me sad too. There's logic in what you say, but in real life, it want's just one huge pile I threw out, it took 10 years, in waves. Just setting up a sale is a giant headache that wasn't worth it for me, and my collection is in no way mainstream, so it could have taken forever. Also, isn't ripping the CD's and them selling the copyright infringement? Sure is. (in some cases even ripping it as backups is a no no by the law).

Psychonaut, all that I wrote above was in no way a justification or rationalization of anything, I was just trying to tell it like it is, what CAN be done about it, and what CANNOT. It's totally your right to be pissed that you're losing money. I'm sorry for that, and yeah, it seems that a pro band is less likely these days to earn their living from their music. OTH, the new media world offers amazing exposure opportunities to a lot of others, not necessarily "shitty home recorded mp3's by hobbiest bands". It will balance, in time, I hope.

You're also right about the ease of getting stuff - if it's out there, Google is all it takes. All you can try to do is make sure that your results will be at the top, and that it will lead to content that people will want. It's not much, but policing the internet is futile, it's chaos land. It's a fascinating study of anarchy, and human trends, for good or bad.

Last edited: Jun 23, 2012 15:43:49

JakeDobner wrote:

It takes a knowledge of recording, but I feel recording/engineering isn't exactly hard to learn for a serious musician.

It might not be hard to lean, but it is an art, and not everyone is capable of producing a great sounding record be it at home or in the studio.

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

Obviously, it won't work for any genre. But I've heard some great albums recorded straight to cheap four-tracks.

If I were to choose from an ideal setting(ample time, peaceful setting) and having an audio engineer at hand, I'd choose the ideal setting every time.

We've always done studio ourselves, and I would continue to do that if the 'Verb recorded another record. Not everyone in the band is capable of a non-studio setting. What I'm saying is, not enough perfectionists. Studios allow you to get a really great sounding record quickly, recording at home allows you to get a great sounding record with work but at your own pace. I work best being systematic and not doing something until I'm ready or until I have a better idea than the one I currently have. I'll record filler knowing I'll replace it later when the right puzzle piece comes to me.

We're not talking about the shitty ones are we?
I haven't recorded anything, but from other stuff I did in my life, I find that a bit of pressure tends to bring out the best from you. Sometimes. Obviously, you have to be prepared.
Man, really, listen to that podcast, you'll enjoy it.
Now we're totally off-topic. Hmmm, sorry all.

I'm a little behind on this thread, and just finished reading the last 5 pages to catch up. I look forward to reading the pages you all linked to as well.

The situation as it stands now is pretty frightening, to be honest. I'm still squeaking by with Double Crown, but sales have slowed down a bit, especially over the last couple of years. While I am thankful that sales have been decent to this point, I really hope this trend doesn't continue downward. I keep saying to myself that the 25-60 year old males that are my label's demographic are used to buying CD's and 7"s, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. However, I sent out an e-newsletter to nearly 1800 of our customers at the beginning of the month, and got 10 orders as a result - that's not great.

Here's how the future's starting to shape up for the label - smaller CD production runs, fewer releases, no vinyl releases, and no more taking chances on bands that don't tour, or just don't have strong sales potential. The days of just releasing good music, not taking into account sales potential, sadly look like they're over. The cost of manufacturing CD's has dropped, oftentimes to less than a dollar a disc. However, a few of our recent releases have sold less than 100 copies, unheard of in the first 10 years of the label.

I can't say every release we've put out has been a timeless classic, but all have had enough strong points to justify being released on the label. I've always enjoyed taking chances with some releases, but sadly, that may not be possible in the future.

It's even more scary when I look beyond Double Crown. Is there going to be a point when bands stop recording songs or putting out albums? These days it seems like if you have a hit single (which is usually more reliant on the image and outragousness of the artist), you can look forward to 2-3 years of fame and success, until people have moved on to whatever else is new and crazy. If you're an artist or band that doesn't have the potential of scoring a hit, then there will be no reason to release your music. For some classic artists, they have an older fanbase - enough of whom will buy their releases to justify the cost of putting the recording together. Over time these acts will fade away, and younger bands will have fans that aren't used to paying for music. If you can't sell your music, then it only makes sense to record music and release it with a budget that that doesn't take sales into account. It's essentially a business card, used to win fans and bring people to live shows.

So as time goes fewer and fewer people buy CD's and LP's, those fade away. Are digital sales the answer - nope. Reports are showing that digital sales are declining as well. What happens when iTunes, Amazon MP3 and others fade away. Will iPods and mobile phones simply be streaming devices? If so, won't we need nationwide broadband internet and wifi? Does anyone see that becoming a reality any time soon?

Music is everywhere these days. It's become background music to so many, that most feel that it's not worth paying for. Why spend $12 on a CD when you can stream music for free? Or download it for free? Or listen to a podcast for free? YouTube, standard radio, cable/satellite music channels, etc. Sure, some of these do pay artists and labels, making what they do "legit", but it's pennies to the dollar. Madonna probably couldn't go 3 blocks in her limo off what she makes from streaming music sales in a month. Legitimate streaming is not the answer for artists and labels, even though many in the press say it is.

Man, I could go on and on with this - it just isn't a great situation. Funny thing is, I think things are in a better state with our fanzine, The Continental, than they are with the label. And everyone was saying that print publications were dead!

Sean
Double Crown Records
www.doublecrownrecords.com

Surf CD's / Vinyl / Fanzines / DVD's
Aloha Screwdriver - Lunar Wobble CD
The Nebulas - Euphorion LP / CD
Supertubos - The Fourth Drive CD
Continental Magazine - Issue #38 w/17 Song CD

It is technically possible to implement software that detects any download of a music file anywhere on the Internet. Pirate sites could offer it for free all they wanted, but both they and the downloader would get caught. In fact, a popup could offer the downloader an option to pay a license fee and avoid fines and other penalties, in order to receive the music file.

Programs like these already operate on the Internet to catch file sharing of various types of illegal content, as well as flag content of interest to various national security agencies here and around the world. Of course, this means some company, agency or other entity is already processing files moving over the Internet for "interesting" content.

Using such technology in this manner would reduce and perhaps eliminate loss of property use license fees by music owners by forcing downloaders to choose between paying the license holder or not downloading. Needless to add, the pirates don't receive any money.

This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.