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--- Brian Neal <> wrote:
> Did the Shadows influence the 1st wave of
> surf?
In the US, virtually not at all.
> But what about bands like the Atlantics from
> Australia? They had a direct Shadows influence
> and were considered a surf band as they were
> exposed to both. And I definitely hear the
> Shadows influence in *modern* European surf
> bands where the Shadows influence was inescapable.
Outside the US, many sounds that were guitar dominated
intro were called surf. In a strict sense, their
obvious homage to the Shadows makes them debatable I
suppose, but I sure think of them as surf, at least in
part. The Joy Boys were even covered by the Surfaris
("Murphy The Surfie").
> As for why didn't the Shadows tour the US during
> the British Invasion...well the Shadows weren't
> considered a British Invasion band!
Exactly. The British Invasion was comprised of
basically three sounds, pop bands (Beatles, Gerry and
the Pacemakers, Honeycombs, etc.), the R&B bands
(Rolling Stones, Yardbirds, Pretty Things, Animals,
Them, the Who, etc.), and rock 'n' roll bands (the
Dave Clark Five, the Kinks, and more). OTher British
pop and rock styles did not translate to US audiences.
> Bands like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks,
> The Who, etc were very different from The Shadows
> at the time and probably looked down their noses
> at those older guys...
I think they were just very different. And as
influences go, the R&B bands rocked the American
garage/punk world, spawning many legendary bands in
reaction to their tuff sound.
> One thing that always kind of bugged me about
> the Ventures is their trend hopping nature.
A trait that earned them two things, the title of the
Chameleons of rock 'n' roll, and longevity through a
period of very rapid musical change. Their brethren
were luckyo to stay together for 3 years.
1961 surf in the US
R&B boom in the UK
1962 British Invasion begins quietly, but false
starts except for the Tornados "Telstar" and
a couple of others
1964 British Invasion full tilt
1965 American garage bands fight back
Folk rock appears, freak beat begins,
1966 American garage bands get psychedelic
1967 San Francisco folk rock tunrs to flower power,
Sunset srtip errupts in daisies and acid,
Loud and ugly is born from the ashes of the
Oxford Circle in the personna of Blue Cheer,
in the UK, flower pop and the Perfumed Garden
goes big time.
1968 Blue Cheer, coupled with Sparrow becoming
Steppenwolf and Jimi Hendrix really coming into
focus mortells heavy metal, and Silver Apples
lays groundwork that errupted in Cabaret Voltaire
a decade later.
The Ventures remained viable through it all in their
own way.
=====
Well said, Brian - I agree with you. I just take issue with those who'd hold
that The Shadows were more influential, heard by a wider audience, and/or
therefore more essential to be inductees into the RRHOF. I go along with you
that both groups are equally important, and equally deserving of the
recognition.
I don't think Dolton Records would have made the claim that The Ventures had
toured Great Britain, if the claim couldn't be backed up - and yet, on their "On
Stage" LP from the 1960's, are two or three songs, supposedly performed in G.B.
- Ivan, do you want to call this an outright lie?
Bruce D
Brian Neal <> wrote:
I'm not the hard core Ventures or Shadows authority like some of you
guys here, but from my own investigations, it is quite clear that The
Shadows ruled the UK and Europe while the Ventures had a more direct
influence on the US and Japan. Did the Shadows influence the 1st wave of
surf? Not as much as the Ventures, sure. But what about bands like the
Atlantics from Australia? They had a direct Shadows influence and were
considered a surf band as they were exposed to both. And I definitely
hear the Shadows influence in *modern* European surf bands where the
Shadows influence was inescapable.
As for why didn't the Shadows tour the US during the British
Invasion....well the Shadows weren't considered a British Invasion band!
Bands like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks, The Who, etc were very
different from The Shadows at the time and probably looked down their
noses at those older guys (even though they probably liked them and
learned from them when they first picked up guitars).
Clearly if there were justice in the world, both The Shadows & The
Ventures would be in the RRHOF. They both inspired multitudes of kids to
pick up guitars all over the world.
One thing that always kind of bugged me about the Ventures is their
trend hopping nature. Of course they claim it is because they like all
forms of music, and maybe that's true and more power to them. No one can
take away their power and contributions in the early-mid 60's, but to
release disco albums, Carpenters cover albums, Country albums, etc,
etc....either they really do like all that stuff or they are just trying
to stay in business (as in a business Venture). They openly admit that
they would listen to the top 40 hits of the day, pick a few, Venture-ize
them, and then record several originals in the same vein. Wham, there is
your next Ventures album. Is that wrong? I dunno. Is that easy to do?
Not at all, and they mastered it. They still put a fair amount of
creativity into those arrangements, and if you buy their argument that
"hey we musicians who just love to play our guitars" then I guess it's
okay. It's hard not to say "sell out" under your breath though....ouch.
I don't know very much about the Shadows in their later periods, but
Ivan has told me a little bit about their history and they kind of went
off the rails too during various times.
Still, all in all, both of those bands have had phenomenal careers with
longevity and success unheard of for "instrumental" bands. They both
deserve recognition equally IMHO. They both affected surf music. As I
see it, The Ventures directly influenced the 1st wave surf musicians
before surf existed; they also themselves jumped on the trend and helped
popularize it. The Shadows influence on surf came mainly in later waves,
but they did create quite a revolution in popular music in Europe and
England.
BN
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In case it's not obvious, I am a dyed-in-the-wool Ventures fanatic
but I think you have hit on one problem as to why the Ventures aren't
in the RRHOF, Brian. At their worst, they were trend hoppers and very
much the subjects of their Mother label, Liberty/EMI. Their records
sold well but a lot of that was the result of marque value; hit song
titles exploited on the album covers. Two of their recordings, "Wipe
Out" and "More" were recorded strictly by session players. The label
wanted to be able to put those titles on the "Let's Go" album but the
V-boys had cut their tracks and were outta town. Now I know of at
least one current Hall of Famer who was also under a similar record
contract and had at least one recording cut without his involvement.
I won't mention his name but his initials are Duane Eddy.
That's the Ventures at their worst, a cover band slave to the big
label. Fortunatly, we remember the Ventures at their best with the
great original tunes and the whole "how much fun can you have with a
guitar" attitude. That's why they should be in the RRHOF.
-Marty
--- In , Brian Neal <brian@s...> wrote:
> I'm not the hard core Ventures or Shadows authority like some of
you
> guys here, but from my own investigations, it is quite clear that
The
> Shadows ruled the UK and Europe while the Ventures had a more
direct
> influence on the US and Japan. Did the Shadows influence the 1st
wave of
> surf? Not as much as the Ventures, sure. But what about bands like
the
> Atlantics from Australia? They had a direct Shadows influence and
were
> considered a surf band as they were exposed to both. And I
definitely
> hear the Shadows influence in *modern* European surf bands where
the
> Shadows influence was inescapable.
>
> As for why didn't the Shadows tour the US during the British
> Invasion....well the Shadows weren't considered a British Invasion
band!
> Bands like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks, The Who, etc were
very
> different from The Shadows at the time and probably looked down
their
> noses at those older guys (even though they probably liked them and
> learned from them when they first picked up guitars).
>
> Clearly if there were justice in the world, both The Shadows & The
> Ventures would be in the RRHOF. They both inspired multitudes of
kids to
> pick up guitars all over the world.
>
> One thing that always kind of bugged me about the Ventures is their
> trend hopping nature. Of course they claim it is because they like
all
> forms of music, and maybe that's true and more power to them. No
one can
> take away their power and contributions in the early-mid 60's, but
to
> release disco albums, Carpenters cover albums, Country albums, etc,
> etc....either they really do like all that stuff or they are just
trying
> to stay in business (as in a business Venture). They openly admit
that
> they would listen to the top 40 hits of the day, pick a few,
Venture-ize
> them, and then record several originals in the same vein. Wham,
there is
> your next Ventures album. Is that wrong? I dunno. Is that easy to
do?
> Not at all, and they mastered it. They still put a fair amount of
> creativity into those arrangements, and if you buy their argument
that
> "hey we musicians who just love to play our guitars" then I guess
it's
> okay. It's hard not to say "sell out" under your breath
though....ouch.
>
> I don't know very much about the Shadows in their later periods,
but
> Ivan has told me a little bit about their history and they kind of
went
> off the rails too during various times.
>
> Still, all in all, both of those bands have had phenomenal careers
with
> longevity and success unheard of for "instrumental" bands. They
both
> deserve recognition equally IMHO. They both affected surf music. As
I
> see it, The Ventures directly influenced the 1st wave surf
musicians
> before surf existed; they also themselves jumped on the trend and
helped
> popularize it. The Shadows influence on surf came mainly in later
waves,
> but they did create quite a revolution in popular music in Europe
and
> England.
>
> BN
Man, the Beatles sure threw a monkey wrench in the gameplan of alot of bands.
Imagine if the Beatles never existed.
I can't even fathom how many bands probably could have rose to the top. Those
rotten scoundrels!
B-B-O
---- Phil Dirt <> wrote:
>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> Right-O. They, along with the Fireballs, gave the<BR>
> arrangement to the surfbands, gave rock 'n' roll back<BR>
> to kids in garages and at high school dances, and that<BR>
> is what birthed surf more than anything else IMHO,<BR>
> helped immensly by Leo Fender's volume and fullness.<BR>
> Remember, British amps were very weak and thin back<BR>
> then, as was everything in the US before the Fender<BR>
> revolution of '62.<BR>
> <BR>
> The number of players back then who learned from the<BR>
> "PLay Guitar With..." series is endless. It did not<BR>
> matter whether they played the Ventures or not, they<BR>
> learned from them. Their sound was also much more<BR>
> suburban (in appeal and reproduction) than anything<BR>
> before it, as surf was in large part a suburban<BR>
> phenomenom musically once it got going, and the garage<BR>
> bands that followed of course.<BR>
> <BR>
> --- supertwangreverb <><BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> > Like Phil Dirt said, the Ventures impact on rock n'<BR>
> > roll(and I hope this is what you meant Phil) is<BR>
> > more than just a list of Guitar Gods citing Nokie<BR>
> > Edwards as their idol (and there are A LOT). <BR>
> > It's the foundations they layed for young<BR>
> > guitarists starting out, the whole act that<BR>
> > started the concept behind garage rock, pick up<BR>
> > a guitar and play. They were part of the driving<BR>
> > force in America that influenced these kids, and<BR>
> > I think they were the driving force for the<BR>
> > Japanese kids. <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Bill<BR>
> <BR>
> =====<BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
>
> <br><br>
> <tt>
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On the records sales of both bands. Just because the Ventures sold
many more albums, I assume, doesn't mean that the Shadows were heard
any less or were more of an influence. In America there was a whole
lot of prosperity. In Europe there wasn't much to be happy with,
materialism wise. The USSR controlled a chunk of Eastern Russia, the
UK was just beginning to recover from the war. I am sure Germany
hadn't begun to recover. There wasn't much money to go around.
Their influence cannot be compared as they were in two completely
different continents. But the Ventures should not be considered more
influential just for the sake of selling more records. Are the Eagles
and Michael Jackson the most influential musicians ever?
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> > What I WAS saying is that the Shadows actually inspired many more
> > guitarists who ended up becoming legendary (even though many surf
> > fans may not really like them) then the Ventures.
>
> Ivan, someone would have to do a load of research to make that a
> valid point. There are so many guitarists out there, and other
> musicians who don't play guitar. Keith Moon has said that "Ventures
> in Space" was his favorite album. I would think the Who(all tho I
> dislike them) have made a bigger impact on rock than Pink Floyd, or
> Queen.
No offense guys but this thread has gotten ridiculous. The Ventures
and The Shadows were both huge influences on guitar players. The
point that Ivan made, that isn't getting through to a lot of people,
is that Hank and Bruce probably had a bigger effect through osmosis
than did the Ventures. If you listen to a cross-section of surf from
the early 60s to now, there is an ungodly amount of it that is
blatantly influenced by Hank Marvin. Not only his tone, but his
melodic writing style. As much as I like the Ventures, they didn't
really innovate anything and didn't necessarily have an instantly
recognizable style (as did the Shadows). Sure, the Play Guitar with
the Ventures Lps (or whatever they were called) sold a lot and helped
a lot of guitarists to learn. To my understanding, session guys
played on that, not Nokie or Bob. I can pull more songs out of my
surf collection that will sound like the Shadows than will the Ventures.
Shawn Martin
I choose my beer based on how fast it'll take out a full grown snail.
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
> Well said, Brian - I agree with you. I just take issue with those
who'd hold that The Shadows were more influential, heard by a wider
audience, and/or therefore more essential to be inductees into the
RRHOF. I go along with you that both groups are equally important,
and equally deserving of the recognition.
>
> I don't think Dolton Records would have made the claim that The
Ventures had toured Great Britain, if the claim couldn't be backed up
- and yet, on their "On Stage" LP from the 1960's, are two or three
songs, supposedly performed in G.B. - Ivan, do you want to call this
an outright lie?
Jeez, are you related to one of the Ventures? I've never seen someone
get so defensive about something so meaningless in the grand scheme of
things.
Shawn Martin
I choose my beer based on how fast it'll take out a full grown snail.
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
Well, this discussion is lively! I can't tell you how many interviews I've seen
with "classic
rock" artists who said they were influenced by Hank Marvin & the Shadows: Neil
Young,
Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck. MONSTERS of rock, who would in turn go on
to
influence future generations.
The only big player I remember who said he was influenced by The Ventures is
Eddie Van
Halen, who said the first song he learned was "Walk Don't Run." (Page did say he
tried to
get a fuzz effect to replicate the sound on The Ventures "2000 Pound Bee"). But
I am sure
Ventures advocates could find dozens of examples to prove me wrong!
I think we can all agree, The Shadows were the mind-blowing musicians, for their
time.
Can't be said of The Ventures, but they did bring surf to the national attention
with "Walk
Don't Run," "Perfidia," and more.
The Ventures probably inspired many more Americans to pick up guitars in the
first place
and play. Hmm...remember, the U.S. kids had many more artists to be influenced
by, so
how many successful ones would say they related primarily to The Ventures? And,
let's
face it, most of the surf bands would have been influenced by Dick Dale, Duane
Eddie, Link Wray, jazz artists, Catalonian sheep herders, and others - The
Ventures were
their contemporaries. And, I wonder if The Ventures weren't more influenced by
those
fairly anonymous surf bands, given their penchant for raiding other people's set
lists and
sounds!
Truly, the Shadows had a more sophisticated approach. In the end, tho, I think
all three
bands (Ventures, Shadows, & Dick Dale & His Deltones) deserve a wing in the
R'n'R Hall of
Fame. Or, at least a wave pool.
--- In , "mctippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
>
> In case it's not obvious, I am a dyed-in-the-wool Ventures fanatic
> but I think you have hit on one problem as to why the Ventures aren't
> in the RRHOF, Brian. At their worst, they were trend hoppers and very
> much the subjects of their Mother label, Liberty/EMI.
BINGO! Most people, when they think of the Ventures, think of the
same half dozen songs. Nobody takes into account that they put out a
ton of (I'll say it) garbage. They rode the surf wave and are somehow
the first group that the non-educated public thinks of when someone
says surf music (if they don't say the Beach Boys). Very little of
what they did can really be considered surf and most of there albums
were comprised of covers of whatever songs were just in the top 40 by
other bands. I don't have anything against the Ventures. They
influenced a lot of musicians (Mel Taylor influenced me on drums), but
their tangible influence on guitarists as a whole is being way
overblown by a few people here IMHO.
Shawn Martin
I choose my beer based on how fast it'll take out a full grown snail.
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
Jeez Shawn,
So mentioning something that appeared prominently on a Ventures album is
"defensive"? Having a concern for truth and accuracy makes me biased? Jeez,
pardon me for breathing!
Bruce D
Shawn Martin <> wrote:
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
> Well said, Brian - I agree with you. I just take issue with those
who'd hold that The Shadows were more influential, heard by a wider
audience, and/or therefore more essential to be inductees into the
RRHOF. I go along with you that both groups are equally important,
and equally deserving of the recognition.
>
> I don't think Dolton Records would have made the claim that The
Ventures had toured Great Britain, if the claim couldn't be backed up
- and yet, on their "On Stage" LP from the 1960's, are two or three
songs, supposedly performed in G.B. - Ivan, do you want to call this
an outright lie?
Jeez, are you related to one of the Ventures? I've never seen someone
get so defensive about something so meaningless in the grand scheme of
things.
Shawn Martin
I choose my beer based on how fast it'll take out a full grown snail.
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
.
Visit for archived messages,
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
wrote:
> I don't think Dolton Records would have made the claim that The
Ventures had toured Great Britain, if the claim couldn't be backed
up - and yet, on their "On Stage" LP from the 1960's, are two or
three songs, supposedly performed in G.B. - Ivan, do you want to call
this an outright lie?
Yes. The On Stage LP was not actually live performances, and all the
MC and audience stuff was dubbed in. They never played in the UK.
It was pure propaganda/promotion.
Please some Ventures historian back me up on this. Thank you.
Ivan
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
> Jeez Shawn,
>
> So mentioning something that appeared prominently on a Ventures
album is "defensive"? Having a concern for truth and accuracy makes
me biased? Jeez, pardon me for breathing!
Do you actually think that is a real live recording? Sandy Nelson
recorded a bunch of tunes in his garage and added crowd noise and
released it as a live album too.
Shawn Martin
I choose my beer based on how fast it'll take out a full grown snail.
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
Alright Shawn,
Thanks for giving me the thumbs up but lets not go crazy and say that the
Ventures released a bunch o' garbage, at least not without balancing the comment
with the fact that they also released much more in the way of good stuff. And
they were indeed an influence on many guitarists. That is not a notion that has
been overblown here...yet.
In the rock and roll era, the artists that sent major droves of kids to the
guitar stores (in the U.S.) came every 5 years and they were: Duane Eddy, The
Ventures, The Beat-less, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Eddie Van Halen, and SRV.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Shawn Martin
To:
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 6:43 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
--- In , "mctippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
>
> In case it's not obvious, I am a dyed-in-the-wool Ventures fanatic
> but I think you have hit on one problem as to why the Ventures aren't
> in the RRHOF, Brian. At their worst, they were trend hoppers and very
> much the subjects of their Mother label, Liberty/EMI.
BINGO! Most people, when they think of the Ventures, think of the
same half dozen songs. Nobody takes into account that they put out a
ton of (I'll say it) garbage. They rode the surf wave and are somehow
the first group that the non-educated public thinks of when someone
says surf music (if they don't say the Beach Boys). Very little of
what they did can really be considered surf and most of there albums
were comprised of covers of whatever songs were just in the top 40 by
other bands. I don't have anything against the Ventures. They
influenced a lot of musicians (Mel Taylor influenced me on drums), but
their tangible influence on guitarists as a whole is being way
overblown by a few people here IMHO.
Shawn Martin
I choose my beer based on how fast it'll take out a full grown snail.
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I like what you have here, Gavin, BUT you've got it wrong on the technical
ability scale. The Shadows never released any mind-blowing guitar work. They
released mind-blowing guitar tones and great productions and arrangements. The
Ventures did release mind blowing guitar work. One example is the Nokie's guitar
in Caravan on the "On Stage Around the World" album which, to this day, is mind
blowing.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Gavin Ehringer
To:
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 6:38 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
Well, this discussion is lively! I can't tell you how many interviews I've
seen with "classic
rock" artists who said they were influenced by Hank Marvin & the Shadows: Neil
Young,
Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck. MONSTERS of rock, who would in turn go on
to
influence future generations.
The only big player I remember who said he was influenced by The Ventures is
Eddie Van
Halen, who said the first song he learned was "Walk Don't Run." (Page did say
he tried to
get a fuzz effect to replicate the sound on The Ventures "2000 Pound Bee").
But I am sure
Ventures advocates could find dozens of examples to prove me wrong!
I think we can all agree, The Shadows were the mind-blowing musicians, for
their time.
Can't be said of The Ventures, but they did bring surf to the national
attention with "Walk
Don't Run," "Perfidia," and more.
The Ventures probably inspired many more Americans to pick up guitars in the
first place
and play. Hmm...remember, the U.S. kids had many more artists to be influenced
by, so
how many successful ones would say they related primarily to The Ventures?
And, let's
face it, most of the surf bands would have been influenced by Dick Dale, Duane
Eddie, Link Wray, jazz artists, Catalonian sheep herders, and others - The
Ventures were
their contemporaries. And, I wonder if The Ventures weren't more influenced by
those
fairly anonymous surf bands, given their penchant for raiding other people's
set lists and
sounds!
Truly, the Shadows had a more sophisticated approach. In the end, tho, I think
all three
bands (Ventures, Shadows, & Dick Dale & His Deltones) deserve a wing in the
R'n'R Hall of
Fame. Or, at least a wave pool.
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Ventures were indeed innovators, even if they were also copiers at other
times. They were early motivators of the Fender sound. They had arguably the
first use of fuzz guitar on "2000lb Bee", they also had a whole album full of
innovative sounds called "In Space". The Shadows did have an identifiable sound,
but they stuck to that sound and that is their sole innovation.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Shawn Martin
To:
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 6:15 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> > What I WAS saying is that the Shadows actually inspired many more
> > guitarists who ended up becoming legendary (even though many surf
> > fans may not really like them) then the Ventures.
>
> Ivan, someone would have to do a load of research to make that a
> valid point. There are so many guitarists out there, and other
> musicians who don't play guitar. Keith Moon has said that "Ventures
> in Space" was his favorite album. I would think the Who(all tho I
> dislike them) have made a bigger impact on rock than Pink Floyd, or
> Queen.
No offense guys but this thread has gotten ridiculous. The Ventures
and The Shadows were both huge influences on guitar players. The
point that Ivan made, that isn't getting through to a lot of people,
is that Hank and Bruce probably had a bigger effect through osmosis
than did the Ventures. If you listen to a cross-section of surf from
the early 60s to now, there is an ungodly amount of it that is
blatantly influenced by Hank Marvin. Not only his tone, but his
melodic writing style. As much as I like the Ventures, they didn't
really innovate anything and didn't necessarily have an instantly
recognizable style (as did the Shadows). Sure, the Play Guitar with
the Ventures Lps (or whatever they were called) sold a lot and helped
a lot of guitarists to learn. To my understanding, session guys
played on that, not Nokie or Bob. I can pull more songs out of my
surf collection that will sound like the Shadows than will the Ventures.
Shawn Martin
I choose my beer based on how fast it'll take out a full grown snail.
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
.
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I don't know if the Ventures sold many more albums that the Shadows. The Shadows
did purdy darn well in Europe. But making it in America is something that I
think counts. Again, the U.S. is where rock started, it is the proving ground.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: jacobdobner
To:
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 6:08 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
On the records sales of both bands. Just because the Ventures sold
many more albums, I assume, doesn't mean that the Shadows were heard
any less or were more of an influence. In America there was a whole
lot of prosperity. In Europe there wasn't much to be happy with,
materialism wise. The USSR controlled a chunk of Eastern Russia, the
UK was just beginning to recover from the war. I am sure Germany
hadn't begun to recover. There wasn't much money to go around.
Their influence cannot be compared as they were in two completely
different continents. But the Ventures should not be considered more
influential just for the sake of selling more records. Are the Eagles
and Michael Jackson the most influential musicians ever?
.
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I'm not sure where you're going with this, Bruce, but I'm afraid I have to break
the news that the Ventures never set foot in the U.K. as a performing band and
yes, Dolton (Liberty/EMI) told an outright lie on the cover of the "On Stage
Around the World" album. I still love the Ventures, in spite of the many
fallacies that have adorned their career.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
Well said, Brian - I agree with you. I just take issue with those who'd hold
that The Shadows were more influential, heard by a wider audience, and/or
therefore more essential to be inductees into the RRHOF. I go along with you
that both groups are equally important, and equally deserving of the
recognition.
I don't think Dolton Records would have made the claim that The Ventures had
toured Great Britain, if the claim couldn't be backed up - and yet, on their "On
Stage" LP from the 1960's, are two or three songs, supposedly performed in G.B.
- Ivan, do you want to call this an outright lie?
Bruce D
Brian Neal <> wrote:
I'm not the hard core Ventures or Shadows authority like some of you
guys here, but from my own investigations, it is quite clear that The
Shadows ruled the UK and Europe while the Ventures had a more direct
influence on the US and Japan. Did the Shadows influence the 1st wave of
surf? Not as much as the Ventures, sure. But what about bands like the
Atlantics from Australia? They had a direct Shadows influence and were
considered a surf band as they were exposed to both. And I definitely
hear the Shadows influence in *modern* European surf bands where the
Shadows influence was inescapable.
As for why didn't the Shadows tour the US during the British
Invasion....well the Shadows weren't considered a British Invasion band!
Bands like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks, The Who, etc were very
different from The Shadows at the time and probably looked down their
noses at those older guys (even though they probably liked them and
learned from them when they first picked up guitars).
Clearly if there were justice in the world, both The Shadows & The
Ventures would be in the RRHOF. They both inspired multitudes of kids to
pick up guitars all over the world.
One thing that always kind of bugged me about the Ventures is their
trend hopping nature. Of course they claim it is because they like all
forms of music, and maybe that's true and more power to them. No one can
take away their power and contributions in the early-mid 60's, but to
release disco albums, Carpenters cover albums, Country albums, etc,
etc....either they really do like all that stuff or they are just trying
to stay in business (as in a business Venture). They openly admit that
they would listen to the top 40 hits of the day, pick a few, Venture-ize
them, and then record several originals in the same vein. Wham, there is
your next Ventures album. Is that wrong? I dunno. Is that easy to do?
Not at all, and they mastered it. They still put a fair amount of
creativity into those arrangements, and if you buy their argument that
"hey we musicians who just love to play our guitars" then I guess it's
okay. It's hard not to say "sell out" under your breath though....ouch.
I don't know very much about the Shadows in their later periods, but
Ivan has told me a little bit about their history and they kind of went
off the rails too during various times.
Still, all in all, both of those bands have had phenomenal careers with
longevity and success unheard of for "instrumental" bands. They both
deserve recognition equally IMHO. They both affected surf music. As I
see it, The Ventures directly influenced the 1st wave surf musicians
before surf existed; they also themselves jumped on the trend and helped
popularize it. The Shadows influence on surf came mainly in later waves,
but they did create quite a revolution in popular music in Europe and
England.
BN
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I like what you have here, Gavin, BUT you've got it wrong on the
technical ability scale. The Shadows never released any mind-blowing
guitar work. They released mind-blowing guitar tones and great
productions and arrangements. The Ventures did release mind blowing
guitar work. One example is the Nokie's guitar in Caravan on the "On
Stage Around the World" album which, to this day, is mind blowing.
The Shadows mind blowing guitar tones?? Vox amps, yuk! :)
I think Nokie's guitar playing on "Live in Japan '65" is mind
blowing.
Okay, I'll go along with that, Marty. Maybe the Shadows only blow my mind
because I've
only just begun really listening to their work, and it is all new to me.
That said, I think we can all agree, they were too great bands who didn't get
their due, at
least in the States.
Damn those Beatles! ;-)
Gavin
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> I like what you have here, Gavin, BUT you've got it wrong on the technical
ability scale.
The Shadows never released any mind-blowing guitar work. They released
mind-blowing
guitar tones and great productions and arrangements. The Ventures did release
mind
blowing guitar work. One example is the Nokie's guitar in Caravan on the "On
Stage
Around the World" album which, to this day, is mind blowing.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gavin Ehringer
> To:
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 6:38 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
>
>
>
> Well, this discussion is lively! I can't tell you how many interviews I've
seen with "classic
> rock" artists who said they were influenced by Hank Marvin & the Shadows:
Neil Young,
> Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck. MONSTERS of rock, who would in turn go
on to
> influence future generations.
>
> The only big player I remember who said he was influenced by The Ventures is
Eddie
Van
> Halen, who said the first song he learned was "Walk Don't Run." (Page did
say he tried
to
> get a fuzz effect to replicate the sound on The Ventures "2000 Pound Bee").
But I am
sure
> Ventures advocates could find dozens of examples to prove me wrong!
>
> I think we can all agree, The Shadows were the mind-blowing musicians, for
their time.
> Can't be said of The Ventures, but they did bring surf to the national
attention with
"Walk
> Don't Run," "Perfidia," and more.
>
> The Ventures probably inspired many more Americans to pick up guitars in the
first
place
> and play. Hmm...remember, the U.S. kids had many more artists to be
influenced by,
so
> how many successful ones would say they related primarily to The Ventures?
And, let's
> face it, most of the surf bands would have been influenced by Dick Dale,
Duane
> Eddie, Link Wray, jazz artists, Catalonian sheep herders, and others - The
Ventures
were
> their contemporaries. And, I wonder if The Ventures weren't more influenced
by those
> fairly anonymous surf bands, given their penchant for raiding other people's
set lists
and
> sounds!
>
> Truly, the Shadows had a more sophisticated approach. In the end, tho, I
think all three
> bands (Ventures, Shadows, & Dick Dale & His Deltones) deserve a wing in the
R'n'R Hall
of
> Fame. Or, at least a wave pool.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
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>
>
>
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> ADVERTISEMENT
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh yeah, I've always been combing the import section looking for bands that got
overlooked by the U.S. radio.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Gavin Ehringer
To:
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:05 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
Okay, I'll go along with that, Marty. Maybe the Shadows only blow my mind
because I've
only just begun really listening to their work, and it is all new to me.
That said, I think we can all agree, they were too great bands who didn't get
their due, at
least in the States.
Damn those Beatles! ;-)
Gavin
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> I like what you have here, Gavin, BUT you've got it wrong on the technical
ability scale.
The Shadows never released any mind-blowing guitar work. They released
mind-blowing
guitar tones and great productions and arrangements. The Ventures did release
mind
blowing guitar work. One example is the Nokie's guitar in Caravan on the "On
Stage
Around the World" album which, to this day, is mind blowing.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gavin Ehringer
> To:
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 6:38 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
>
>
>
> Well, this discussion is lively! I can't tell you how many interviews I've
seen with "classic
> rock" artists who said they were influenced by Hank Marvin & the Shadows:
Neil Young,
> Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck. MONSTERS of rock, who would in turn
go on to
> influence future generations.
>
> The only big player I remember who said he was influenced by The Ventures
is Eddie
Van
> Halen, who said the first song he learned was "Walk Don't Run." (Page did
say he tried
to
> get a fuzz effect to replicate the sound on The Ventures "2000 Pound
Bee"). But I am
sure
> Ventures advocates could find dozens of examples to prove me wrong!
>
> I think we can all agree, The Shadows were the mind-blowing musicians, for
their time.
> Can't be said of The Ventures, but they did bring surf to the national
attention with
"Walk
> Don't Run," "Perfidia," and more.
>
> The Ventures probably inspired many more Americans to pick up guitars in
the first
place
> and play. Hmm...remember, the U.S. kids had many more artists to be
influenced by,
so
> how many successful ones would say they related primarily to The Ventures?
And, let's
> face it, most of the surf bands would have been influenced by Dick Dale,
Duane
> Eddie, Link Wray, jazz artists, Catalonian sheep herders, and others - The
Ventures
were
> their contemporaries. And, I wonder if The Ventures weren't more
influenced by those
> fairly anonymous surf bands, given their penchant for raiding other
people's set lists
and
> sounds!
>
> Truly, the Shadows had a more sophisticated approach. In the end, tho, I
think all three
> bands (Ventures, Shadows, & Dick Dale & His Deltones) deserve a wing in
the R'n'R Hall
of
> Fame. Or, at least a wave pool.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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