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--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
> Wow! I really couldn't compare the Shadows with the Ventures. I
> like the Shads but the Ventures BLOW em away IMO. Someone once
said
> on the Fender Forum this of the Shads, "nice try for a bunch of
> english guys."
BLASPHEMY!!!! You must die!
Seriously, that is just soooo wrong, and shows utter ignorance not
only of history but also of much of the Shadows material... I mean,
how much of their stuff has that guy actually heard?
> IMO the Ventures were at their best starting off with
> their last "Fender" album "Lets Go!" uptil about "Wild Things" in
> 1966. I really like the Ventures when they used the Mosrite
> guitars, the Mosrite Fuzzrites, and the organs.
> For good Ventures albums check out, "the Ventures in Space," "The
> Ventures: Knock Me Out," "the Ventures Walk Don't Run Vol. 2,"
> and "the Ventures Live in Japan 1965." I could argue reasons for
> them to be in the ROHF based just on the "Live in Japan '65."
Bill, we're in full agreement on this. I suspect that most surf
music fans are in agreement on this. The Ventures from '63 to '66
were da bomb! And '64 and '65 were their most outstanding years.
Nokie was playing like a man possessed at that point.
> But I still like their earlier Fender albums that Bob played lead
> on too.
Also agreed.
> I just don't like anything with Gerry McGee on it.
Also agreed. He just doesn't do it for me.
> What the hell were the Shadows doing in the mid '60s? "Rhythm and
> Greens" "yeah baby ohh ahhh!!!" ????? :)
Ah, this is where our agreement drastically collapses! Rhythm and
Greens, first of all, was just a joke. It was supposed to make of
the early Beatles and their ilk and their idiotic (early) lyrics and
dumb rhythm & blues imitation sounds and songs. I think most surf
fans can appreciate this sentiment. I mean, think of Potato Bug from
Bikini Beach! The surfers had the same idea.
Second, '65 saw the release of a bunch of great singles by the Shads,
as well as one of their best albums, Sound of the Shadows. Hank, as
well as every other member of the band, also achieved a level of
musicianship on this album that was quite incredible. And though it
didn't rock nearly as hard as the Ventures circa '65, it did have its
supremely energetic moments, such as The Lost City (with an
incredible, biting tone), National Provincial Samba, Breakthru, and
Deep Purple. The Shadows were steered wrong by their management
during those years, and they became gradually softer, but they could
definitely rock. And yes, their most rocking moments were in '60
and '61, when the Ventures sounded like a band that grandma would
love. The Shads were pumping out Man Of Mystery (described by Brian
May as the 'heaviest, most metallic-sounding thing he had ever heard
up to then'), The Savage, Gonzales, The Frightened City, and so on.
Nothing that the Ventures did until at least '64 could match that
sort of intensity. So, let's give the Shads their due, please.
Ivan
PS For a great demonstration of what a rocking band the Shads were,
one really must check out their early work ('59-'61) with Cliff
Richard. For example, Nine Times Out of Ten is as fast and heavy as
any American r&r song from '54-'60, and Hank's solo is
UNBELIVABLE!! Pure electricity! And totally improvised, as were
all of his solos in all of the early years. And don't even get me
started on his tone in that song...
But... I wonder if Brian May had heard of Link Wray!
> The Shads were pumping out Man Of Mystery (described by Brian
> May as the 'heaviest, most metallic-sounding thing he had ever
heard
> up to then')
I wonder if Brian May had heard of Link Wray!
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> > The Shads were pumping out Man Of Mystery (described by Brian
> > May as the 'heaviest, most metallic-sounding thing he had ever
> heard
> > up to then')
>
> I wonder if Brian May had heard of Link Wray!
I have no idea, but here's a story along these lines:
Pete Townshend (of the Who) said on occasion that if it wasn't for
Link Wray he never would have picked up the guitar. BUT, when I was
talking to Bruce Welch, the rhythm guitarist for the Shadows and one
of the band's two primary songwriters, in 2003 (BTW, I HIGHLY
recommend sitting down with one of your heroes and shooting shit late
into the night, if you ever get a chance - it's quite choice! :) he
told me that recently he was inducted into some sort of hall-of-fame-
like thing (I forget what it was exactly), and it was Pete Townshend
that introduced him. Pete said the following: "When I was a young
lad, learning to play the guitar, everybody I knew that was also
learning to play wanted to be Hank. Not me. I wanted to be him
(points to Bruce)!" (That actually makes a lot of sense - Townshend
is a hell of a rhythm guitarist, and a piss-poor lead guitarist!)
Not only were the Shads the primary inspiration for pretty much all
British guitarists of the early sixties, but obviously even for the
guys that HAD heard Link Wray.
I'd say that the impact that the Shadows had on all of subsequent
rock and roll is considerably larger than the Ventures. If you think
about the guys that started playing the guitar because of the
Shadows, it reads like who's-who of sixties and seventies guitar
scene: Brian May (Queen), David Gilmour (Pink Floyd), Mark Knopfler
(Dire Straits), Pete Townshend (The Who), Peter Frampton (who just
recorded an instrumental album, incidentally), Ritchie Blackmore
(whose earliest gig was playing Shadows-like instrumentals in a band
called the Outlaws - one of Joe Meek's bands), etc. For God's sake,
the tribute to the Shads called "Twang!" besides these guys also had
songs by Tony Iommi (Black Sabbath) and Andy Summers (the Police)! I
know that the Ventures were very influential, but it pales to the
Shadows. In fact, I rarely see players explicitly pointing out the
Ventures as the reason why they became guitarists, whereas almost
every time you read an interview with a British guitarist they'll
talk about the Shads.
Here's a reason why the Shadows are at least as worthy, and in my
opinion, more worthy than the Ventures to get inducted into the R&R
HOF, but ultimately who cares. If they care, great, I really hope
they get in. Both of them, actually. They definitely deserve it.
Ivan
> I have no idea, but here's a story along these lines:
>
> Pete Townshend (of the Who) said on occasion that if it wasn't for
> Link Wray he never would have picked up the guitar. BUT, when I
was
> talking to Bruce Welch, the rhythm guitarist for the Shadows and
one
> of the band's two primary songwriters, in 2003 (BTW, I HIGHLY
> recommend sitting down with one of your heroes and shooting shit
late
> into the night, if you ever get a chance - it's quite choice! :)
he
> told me that recently he was inducted into some sort of hall-of-
fame-
> like thing (I forget what it was exactly), and it was Pete
Townshend
> that introduced him. Pete said the following: "When I was a young
> lad, learning to play the guitar, everybody I knew that was also
> learning to play wanted to be Hank. Not me. I wanted to be him
> (points to Bruce)!" (That actually makes a lot of sense -
Townshend
> is a hell of a rhythm guitarist, and a piss-poor lead guitarist!)
> Not only were the Shads the primary inspiration for pretty much
all
> British guitarists of the early sixties, but obviously even for
the
> guys that HAD heard Link Wray.
>
> I'd say that the impact that the Shadows had on all of subsequent
> rock and roll is considerably larger than the Ventures. If you
think
> about the guys that started playing the guitar because of the
> Shadows, it reads like who's-who of sixties and seventies guitar
> scene: Brian May (Queen), David Gilmour (Pink Floyd), Mark
Knopfler
> (Dire Straits), Pete Townshend (The Who), Peter Frampton (who just
> recorded an instrumental album, incidentally), Ritchie Blackmore
> (whose earliest gig was playing Shadows-like instrumentals in a
band
> called the Outlaws - one of Joe Meek's bands), etc. For God's
sake,
> the tribute to the Shads called "Twang!" besides these guys also
had
> songs by Tony Iommi (Black Sabbath) and Andy Summers (the
Police)! I
> know that the Ventures were very influential, but it pales to the
> Shadows. In fact, I rarely see players explicitly pointing out
the
> Ventures as the reason why they became guitarists, whereas almost
> every time you read an interview with a British guitarist they'll
> talk about the Shads.
>
> Here's a reason why the Shadows are at least as worthy, and in my
> opinion, more worthy than the Ventures to get inducted into the
R&R
> HOF, but ultimately who cares. If they care, great, I really hope
> they get in. Both of them, actually. They definitely deserve
it.
Cool story about Bruce, and I do believe that Pete Townshend would
have rather "been" Bruce than Hank. Funny thing is alot of these
older guys, through my experince with talking to my heros, forgot a
majority of what really happened.
I doubt Pete could have played anything Hank did anyway. I'm not
denying the Shadows of being in whatever "mock" hall of fame we are
all saying the Ventures and Dick deserve to be in. It's funny we
are wasting all this time arguing for these bands and then we all
agree they are almost too good for the likes of the other musicians
in the RHOF.
I'm a history major, but I'm yet to come across any charts or
statistics that say who had more of an impact on the youth of the
60's. So to say the Shadows or Ventures made a larger impact is
pointless with out any proof, and I don't have the time to research
this.
Maybe the Shadows had more of an impact in Britian, but I doubt that
for America, or even Japan. My dad is dead now but by looking
through his record collection it's fairly easy to see which band
influenced a 16-18 year old guitarsist in 1964. I'm sure his
collection is rather similar to the countless other American garage
bands of the mid 60s. I'm also willing to bet the Ventures had more
of an influence on the actual American surf bands at the time as
well. Lastly, aren't the Ventures responsible for a cultural change
in Japan during 1965?
Bill
www.myspace.com/reluctantaquanauts
Bill,
I think your observations are right on the money. I've
talked with many US guitarists of the day, and have
been listening to this music since day one. What it
looks like to me goes something like this:
The Shadows were virtually unknown in the US in the
sixties (only one LP release - the mistitled "Surfing
With The Shadows"), but they had a huge influence in
Britain and Europe. It was a different kind of
influence as well. Their sound was not just
influential, it was often copied outright, especially
today. It's hard to talk to an early sixties British
guitarist that doesn't mention them in their
influences list. Another difference is that they were
first down that sound path. One little piece of
evidence that they didn't influence US bands was the
one Shadows styled LP the Challengers did, a style
change they quickly dropped to return to surf.
In the US, the Ventures inspired huge numbers of
players, many of which had a 5 years' earlier
influences laying ground work, from Link Wray, Johnny
and the Hurricanes, and the Fireballs, and more.
Unlike the Shadows, the Ventures didn't inspire a
thousand sound-alikes, but rather a thousand bands,
each with their own sound. They created an environment
friendly to rock instro evolution.
Secondly, the Ventures' "Play Guitar With" series was
the teacher to a whole lot of beginners.
Third, the Ventures took rock instro to Japan and
sparked the eleki scene, essentially launching a new
era in Japanese music and culture. The impact they had
on Japan should not be understated. It was immense.
Like the Shadows in Europe, many of the eleki bands
copied the Ventures, but others evolved their own
unique sound.
Lastly, and by way of observation, the instrumentals
covered around the world by other than Shadows styled
bands are virtually all of American origin, either
from the Ventures songbook or surf. "Walk, Don't Run,"
"Pipeline," etc. It may likely be the energy in the
music that makes the difference. The Shadows played
extremely polish, often beautiful songs, sometimes
with lush arrangements. The Ventures, surfbands, etc.,
on the other hand, were rock 'n' roll.
As a final note, I also don't think it's valid to try
to demonstrate which is more important or more
credible or whatever. They are very different, apples
and oranges so to speak, and both had an influence few
bands can claim.
Phil Dirt
--- supertwangreverb <>
wrote:
> Maybe the Shadows had more of an impact in Britian,
> but I doubt that for America, or even Japan. My
> dad is dead now but by looking through his record
> collection it's fairly easy to see which band
> influenced a 16-18 year old guitarsist in 1964.
> I'm sure his collection is rather similar to
> the countless other American garage
> bands of the mid 60s. I'm also willing to bet
> the Ventures had more of an influence on the actual
> American surf bands at the time as well.
> Lastly, aren't the Ventures responsible for a
> cultural change in Japan during 1965?
=====
There is a good long list of name guitarists who site the Ventures as their
primary influence. If it's not as long as the Shadows, it's 'cause the media was
not as concentrated and kids here had much more exposure to other influences.
Some of those in the U.K. that site the Shadows as an influence also site the
Ventures, Peter Frampton for one. Bob Berryhill of the Surfaries told me of the
early surf days, "we were all trying to be the Ventures". I know he doesn't
really speak for everyone, but there is enough evidence to indicate that many
surf bands where influenced by the Ventures.
That aside, I really think there is something to making it in the U.S. Yes, I
know it's not the American Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but this is the place
where rock was born. This is the proving ground. If you can get the attention of
the U.S., then you're a cut above. Did the Ventures have an advantage being born
here? Yep. But many other instrumental acts being born in the U.S. didn't make
it, try as they all did.
Was being English a disadvantage for the Shadows? Ask the Beatles.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: ipongrac
To:
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 5:43 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: The Shadows & the Ventures
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> > The Shads were pumping out Man Of Mystery (described by Brian
> > May as the 'heaviest, most metallic-sounding thing he had ever
> heard
> > up to then')
>
> I wonder if Brian May had heard of Link Wray!
I have no idea, but here's a story along these lines:
Pete Townshend (of the Who) said on occasion that if it wasn't for
Link Wray he never would have picked up the guitar. BUT, when I was
talking to Bruce Welch, the rhythm guitarist for the Shadows and one
of the band's two primary songwriters, in 2003 (BTW, I HIGHLY
recommend sitting down with one of your heroes and shooting shit late
into the night, if you ever get a chance - it's quite choice! :) he
told me that recently he was inducted into some sort of hall-of-fame-
like thing (I forget what it was exactly), and it was Pete Townshend
that introduced him. Pete said the following: "When I was a young
lad, learning to play the guitar, everybody I knew that was also
learning to play wanted to be Hank. Not me. I wanted to be him
(points to Bruce)!" (That actually makes a lot of sense - Townshend
is a hell of a rhythm guitarist, and a piss-poor lead guitarist!)
Not only were the Shads the primary inspiration for pretty much all
British guitarists of the early sixties, but obviously even for the
guys that HAD heard Link Wray.
I'd say that the impact that the Shadows had on all of subsequent
rock and roll is considerably larger than the Ventures. If you think
about the guys that started playing the guitar because of the
Shadows, it reads like who's-who of sixties and seventies guitar
scene: Brian May (Queen), David Gilmour (Pink Floyd), Mark Knopfler
(Dire Straits), Pete Townshend (The Who), Peter Frampton (who just
recorded an instrumental album, incidentally), Ritchie Blackmore
(whose earliest gig was playing Shadows-like instrumentals in a band
called the Outlaws - one of Joe Meek's bands), etc. For God's sake,
the tribute to the Shads called "Twang!" besides these guys also had
songs by Tony Iommi (Black Sabbath) and Andy Summers (the Police)! I
know that the Ventures were very influential, but it pales to the
Shadows. In fact, I rarely see players explicitly pointing out the
Ventures as the reason why they became guitarists, whereas almost
every time you read an interview with a British guitarist they'll
talk about the Shads.
Here's a reason why the Shadows are at least as worthy, and in my
opinion, more worthy than the Ventures to get inducted into the R&R
HOF, but ultimately who cares. If they care, great, I really hope
they get in. Both of them, actually. They definitely deserve it.
Ivan
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One US band definitely influenced by The Shadows was
The Sandalls, but those guys were Belgians who moved
to SoCal, so they new the Shadows from "the
continent".
As for Japan, I think The Shadows did have a huge
impact there, not as early as the Ventures, who as
noted, basically started the eleki movement. But The
Shadows were adopted there, and at least in terms of
fan clubs, are still very popular.
Ferenc
--- Phil Dirt <> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I think your observations are right on the money.
> I've
> talked with many US guitarists of the day, and have
> been listening to this music since day one. What it
> looks like to me goes something like this:
>
> The Shadows were virtually unknown in the US in the
> sixties (only one LP release - the mistitled
> "Surfing
> With The Shadows"), but they had a huge influence in
> Britain and Europe. It was a different kind of
> influence as well. Their sound was not just
> influential, it was often copied outright,
> especially
> today. It's hard to talk to an early sixties British
> guitarist that doesn't mention them in their
> influences list. Another difference is that they
> were
> first down that sound path. One little piece of
> evidence that they didn't influence US bands was the
> one Shadows styled LP the Challengers did, a style
> change they quickly dropped to return to surf.
>
> In the US, the Ventures inspired huge numbers of
> players, many of which had a 5 years' earlier
> influences laying ground work, from Link Wray,
> Johnny
> and the Hurricanes, and the Fireballs, and more.
> Unlike the Shadows, the Ventures didn't inspire a
> thousand sound-alikes, but rather a thousand bands,
> each with their own sound. They created an
> environment
> friendly to rock instro evolution.
>
> Secondly, the Ventures' "Play Guitar With" series
> was
> the teacher to a whole lot of beginners.
>
> Third, the Ventures took rock instro to Japan and
> sparked the eleki scene, essentially launching a new
> era in Japanese music and culture. The impact they
> had
> on Japan should not be understated. It was immense.
> Like the Shadows in Europe, many of the eleki bands
> copied the Ventures, but others evolved their own
> unique sound.
>
> Lastly, and by way of observation, the instrumentals
> covered around the world by other than Shadows
> styled
> bands are virtually all of American origin, either
> from the Ventures songbook or surf. "Walk, Don't
> Run,"
> "Pipeline," etc. It may likely be the energy in the
> music that makes the difference. The Shadows played
> extremely polish, often beautiful songs, sometimes
> with lush arrangements. The Ventures, surfbands,
> etc.,
> on the other hand, were rock 'n' roll.
>
> As a final note, I also don't think it's valid to
> try
> to demonstrate which is more important or more
> credible or whatever. They are very different,
> apples
> and oranges so to speak, and both had an influence
> few
> bands can claim.
>
> Phil Dirt
>
> --- supertwangreverb <>
> wrote:
> > Maybe the Shadows had more of an impact in
> Britian,
> > but I doubt that for America, or even Japan. My
> > dad is dead now but by looking through his record
> > collection it's fairly easy to see which band
> > influenced a 16-18 year old guitarsist in 1964.
> > I'm sure his collection is rather similar to
> > the countless other American garage
> > bands of the mid 60s. I'm also willing to bet
> > the Ventures had more of an influence on the
> actual
> > American surf bands at the time as well.
> > Lastly, aren't the Ventures responsible for a
> > cultural change in Japan during 1965?
>
> =====
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
Bill and Phil,
to recap: I wasn't arguing that the Shadows were more or even as
influential on surf bands as the Ventures! That would obviously be
a ridiculous argument. Without Ventures, no surf music - it's as
simple as that. The Shadows obviously had at most a peripheral
influence on the surf scene, and probably not even that. And I know
that MANY surf guitarists were inspired by the Ventures to pick up
the guitar.
What I WAS saying is that the Shadows actually inspired many more
guitarists who ended up becoming legendary (even though many surf
fans may not really like them) then the Ventures. As Marty
admitted, the list of the big-name guitarists that claim the
Ventures as a primary influence is much smaller than the list of the
big-name guitarists that claim the Shadows as a primary influence.
Which actually also contradicts Phil's claim that the Shadows
created only copy-cat bands that did not evolve the music much.
Well, I would agree if the music we're talking about is strictly r&r
instrumentals. The fact is that we saw much greater evolution of
rock instros in the US as part of the surf scene, than we did in
England and Europe as a result of the popularity of the Shadows
(though there were quite a few great, unknown bands that did a lot
of cool stuff without just slavishly copying the Shads - they're
just not known very well to most US surf fans, bands like the
Hunters, the Phantoms, the Outlaws, the Fentones, the Eagles, the
Dakotas, the Cougars, etc.). but if we're talking about the
evolution of the rock music as a whole (for better or worse) there's
no doubt in my mind that the Shadows had much more impact than the
Ventures. I mean, look at these bands: Queen, Pink Floyd, Deep
Purple, Dire Straits, etc., etc. Now give me the names of some huge
(non-instrumental) sixties, seventies, or eighties band where the
guitarist claimed the Ventures as the primary influence. (I'm sure
there are some, but none come to mind.) So, I think the Shadows
created much more rock evolution (again, in many cases for the
worse) than the Ventures.
It is also for this reason that I would say that the Shadows were
VERY influential in the US! However, the influence was quite
indirect. Obviously the Shads were never able to break through here
in any way shape or form (well, "You're The One That I Want" and
another big hit from the movie Grease were written by one of the
Shadows...), but their indirect influence was huge.
Ivan
PS And yes, I know all about the Ventures impact on Japan. That's
simply not what I was talking about.
--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I think your observations are right on the money. I've
> talked with many US guitarists of the day, and have
> been listening to this music since day one. What it
> looks like to me goes something like this:
>
> The Shadows were virtually unknown in the US in the
> sixties (only one LP release - the mistitled "Surfing
> With The Shadows"), but they had a huge influence in
> Britain and Europe. It was a different kind of
> influence as well. Their sound was not just
> influential, it was often copied outright, especially
> today. It's hard to talk to an early sixties British
> guitarist that doesn't mention them in their
> influences list. Another difference is that they were
> first down that sound path. One little piece of
> evidence that they didn't influence US bands was the
> one Shadows styled LP the Challengers did, a style
> change they quickly dropped to return to surf.
>
> In the US, the Ventures inspired huge numbers of
> players, many of which had a 5 years' earlier
> influences laying ground work, from Link Wray, Johnny
> and the Hurricanes, and the Fireballs, and more.
> Unlike the Shadows, the Ventures didn't inspire a
> thousand sound-alikes, but rather a thousand bands,
> each with their own sound. They created an environment
> friendly to rock instro evolution.
>
> Secondly, the Ventures' "Play Guitar With" series was
> the teacher to a whole lot of beginners.
>
> Third, the Ventures took rock instro to Japan and
> sparked the eleki scene, essentially launching a new
> era in Japanese music and culture. The impact they had
> on Japan should not be understated. It was immense.
> Like the Shadows in Europe, many of the eleki bands
> copied the Ventures, but others evolved their own
> unique sound.
>
> Lastly, and by way of observation, the instrumentals
> covered around the world by other than Shadows styled
> bands are virtually all of American origin, either
> from the Ventures songbook or surf. "Walk, Don't Run,"
> "Pipeline," etc. It may likely be the energy in the
> music that makes the difference. The Shadows played
> extremely polish, often beautiful songs, sometimes
> with lush arrangements. The Ventures, surfbands, etc.,
> on the other hand, were rock 'n' roll.
>
> As a final note, I also don't think it's valid to try
> to demonstrate which is more important or more
> credible or whatever. They are very different, apples
> and oranges so to speak, and both had an influence few
> bands can claim.
>
> Phil Dirt
>
> --- supertwangreverb <supertwangreverb@y...>
> wrote:
> > Maybe the Shadows had more of an impact in Britian,
> > but I doubt that for America, or even Japan. My
> > dad is dead now but by looking through his record
> > collection it's fairly easy to see which band
> > influenced a 16-18 year old guitarsist in 1964.
> > I'm sure his collection is rather similar to
> > the countless other American garage
> > bands of the mid 60s. I'm also willing to bet
> > the Ventures had more of an influence on the actual
> > American surf bands at the time as well.
> > Lastly, aren't the Ventures responsible for a
> > cultural change in Japan during 1965?
>
> =====
Didn't mean "only copy players" were influenced, just
that a lot of the bands playing the Shadows sound,
especially today, are copy bands, as opposed to cover
or original bands. The Shadows also launched some very
good inspired-by bands and spin-offs, as you
mentioned. Jet Harris and Tony Meehan, the Tornados
("Telstar" fame, not the Tornadoes), and more.
It's interesting how you look at it, and you bring up
a couple of additional interesting points.
US rock instro evolved past the Ventures and the
Fireballs through surf, and through fuzz (Davie Allan,
etc.), and through a plethora of psych instros, though
not as band main sounds. Continued evolution is a key
difference.
Also, you link the Shadows by extension through later
influential players, but that's also true then for the
Ventures via surf and beyond. Many, if not most of the
so-called garage band guitarists started out playing
surf, often listing the Lively Ones and others as
influences. Bands as different as the Sons of Champlin
(Bill Champlin cites San Jose's Torquays as a major
influence), the Syndicate of Sound, the Chocolate
Watchband, the Other Side/Bogus Thunder, the Standells
(Dicky Dodd was in Eddie and the Showmen), Dave Myers
and his Disciples, and even Iron Butterfly (lots of
surf guitar in some of their songs, and they did
instros as well), plus early Grateful Dead (there's
tape of them doing "Wipe Out" and "Ghost Riders"), the
Sons of Adam and the Other Half (Randy Holden), and
many more.
It gets really murky if you use the by-extension
influence line. More directly, guitarists influenced
by guitarists, you can at least draw some connections.
On the US side, the Ventures direct list is greatly
diluted by the fact that there were so many more
influences at work at the time. Even is you only look
at
The influences that were likely on the radio at the
time these tow very important bands formed their
sound, it's markedly different. The UK, as I
understand it, was very limited. The US, on the other
hand, and particularly the Pacific Northwest, was full
of sounds on the radio and at local teen dances that
were the underpinnings of the entire British Blues/R&B
evolution via Cyril Davies and Alexis Koerner, both if
the seminal Blues Incorporated birthed by trad jazzman
Chris Barber. AM radio carried the R&B, the rock 'n'
roll, the exotica, jazz, etc. of the day, and the frat
rock sound was already entrenched via a hundred bands
from the Wailers, Paul Revere, etc. Hell, there was
already a Northwest R&B instro sound being birthed
that was like the inverse of what Graham Bond did in
the UK.
The majority of the American response to the British
Invasion was via what we now call the garage bands or
sixties punk bands, who drew heavily on what grew out
of the seed that Chris Barber planted, and many of
those guitarists had cut their teeth on surf, some in
bands, some in their bedrooms.
Another difficulty with players pointing to
influences, they seem to often cite more familiar
names. I have found in some cases (Bill Champlin is a
good example), that when you dig a little past the
answer, you discover that they played surf, that they
were affected by the Ventures or Dick Dale, or a local
band like the Torquays.
Phil
--- ipongrac <> wrote:
> Which actually also contradicts Phil's claim that
> the Shadows reated only copy-cat bands that did
> not evolve the music much.
>
> Well, I would agree if the music we're talking
> about is strictly r&r instrumentals. The fact
> is that we saw much greater evolution of rock
> instros in the US as part of the surf scene,
> than we did in England and Europe as a result
> of the popularity of the Shadows (though there
> were quite a few great, unknown bands that did
> a lot of cool stuff without just slavishly
> copying the Shads - they're just not known very
> well to most US surf fans, bands like the
> Hunters, the Phantoms, the Outlaws, the Fentones,
> the Eagles, the Dakotas, the Cougars, etc.).
> but if we're talking about the evolution of the
> rock music as a whole (for better or worse)
> there's no doubt in my mind that the Shadows
> had much more impact than the Ventures.
> I mean, look at these bands: Queen, Pink Floyd,
> Deep Purple, Dire Straits, etc., etc. Now give
> me the names of some huge (non-instrumental)
> sixties, seventies, or eighties band where the
> guitarist claimed the Ventures as the primary
> influence. (I'm sure there are some, but none
> come to mind.) So, I think the Shadows created
> much more rock evolution (again, in many cases
> for the worse) than the Ventures.
>
> It is also for this reason that I would say that
> the Shadows were VERY influential in the US!
> However, the influence was quite indirect.
> Obviously the Shads were never able to break
> through here in any way shape or form (well,
> "You're The One That I Want" and another big hit
> from the movie Grease were written by one of the
> Shadows...), but their indirect influence was huge.
=====
Amen, Marty!
The Shadows were and are a great Instro band. One of my favorites, and I love
the way Hank Marvin made his guitar sound!
However, The Ventures had the far greater reach and influence, precious-few US
guitar-stars will cite The Shadows as a major influence, but The Ventures have
been cited by hundreds as having enticed them by showing them on "Walk Don't
Run" how magical a guitar could sound.
Influence? Back in the days of "Centerfield" and "The Old Man Down The Road",
John Fogerty, whose 1960's band, Creedence Clearwater Revival, was one of the
TOP hit-making rock bands of the era, was interviewed by Guitar Player
Maganzine. He had this to say: "The Ventures arrangements made it easy to
figure out the chord changes in their songs. I learned how to use chord
structures in writing songs, from listening to The Ventures."
Influence? George Harrison acknowledged The Ventures as one of his influences!
Influence? Wasn't it Keith Moon, of The Who who stated "The Ventures In Space"
was his favorite LP of all time!
I don't know where the list ends, but about who's done more to earn it, it seems
to me there's little question The Ventures worked a helluva lot harder to expose
the world to their music, than The Shadows ever did.
At any time during the Brit Invasion, Hank, Bruce, Jet and the crew could have
come and toured the US. It would have been so easy! But They Never Did.
During those same years, our boys from Seattle, went to Japan, Australia,
Philippines, Mexico, England, Germany, and those are just the places I've read
about.
If Jorgen Ingmann, a Danish guitarist, who I believe had never been in the US,
could have a major hit here, with Apache, surely Hank Marvin and the Shadows
could have tried just a bit harder to reach out to this vast audience. From
the lack of even one U.S. Tour, us Yanks just weren't any kinda priority to ol'
Hank! Nope, he sure didn't reach out to us then, did he?
So now, some people are saying Hank and The Shadows are more deserving than The
Ventures, of admission to the RRHOF?
Ridiculous!
Bruce D
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
There is a good long list of name guitarists who site the Ventures as their
primary influence. Some of those in the U.K. that site the Shadows as an
influence also site the Ventures, Peter Frampton for one. Bob Berryhill of the
Surfaries told me of the early surf days, "we were all trying to be the
Ventures". I know he doesn't really speak for everyone, but there is enough
evidence to indicate that many surf bands where influenced by the Ventures.
That aside, I really think there is something to making it in the U.S. Yes, I
know it's not the American Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but this is the place
where rock was born. This is the proving ground. If you can get the attention of
the U.S., then you're a cut above. Did the Ventures have an advantage being born
here? Yep. But many other instrumental acts being born in the U.S. didn't make
it, try as they all did.
Was being English a disadvantage for the Shadows? Ask the Beatles.
-Marty
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> What I WAS saying is that the Shadows actually inspired many more
> guitarists who ended up becoming legendary (even though many surf
> fans may not really like them) then the Ventures.
Ivan, someone would have to do a load of research to make that a
valid point. There are so many guitarists out there, and other
musicians who don't play guitar. Keith Moon has said that "Ventures
in Space" was his favorite album. I would think the Who(all tho I
dislike them) have made a bigger impact on rock than Pink Floyd, or
Queen.
> admitted, the list of the big-name guitarists that claim the
> Ventures as a primary influence is much smaller than the list of
the
> big-name guitarists that claim the Shadows as a primary influence.
>
Where are we taking these lists from? I really wonder how many of
those people would have listed the Ventures as influences as well.
I need more solid evidence to be swayed either way.
> but if we're talking about the
> evolution of the rock music as a whole (for better or worse)
there's
> no doubt in my mind that the Shadows had much more impact than the
> Ventures. I mean, look at these bands: Queen, Pink Floyd, Deep
> Purple, Dire Straits, etc., etc. Now give me the names of some
huge
> (non-instrumental) sixties, seventies, or eighties band where the
> guitarist claimed the Ventures as the primary influence.
(I'm sure
> there are some, but none come to mind.) So, I think the Shadows
> created much more rock evolution (again, in many cases for the
> worse) than the Ventures.
I don't think you can argue which band created more of a rock
evolution. But I think more people worldwide know of the Ventures.
Like Phil Dirt said, the Ventures impact on rock n' roll(and I hope
this is what you meant Phil) is more than just a list of Guitar Gods
citing Nokie Edwards as their idol(and there are A LOT). It's the
foundations they layed for young guitarists starting out, the whole
act that started the concept behind garage rock, pick up a guitar
and play. They were part of the driving force in America that
influenced these kids, and I think they were the driving force for
the Japanese kids.
Bill
sorry but you cannot compare the two .i think the shadows are more based on a
sound ,where the ventures are more about drive .the shadows lost there u.s.
chance when jorgen ingmann scored in the us with apache ,which the shadows
released at the same time . as for coming over with the beatles anything british
would have been accepted at this time but they would not have lasted as most of
there music by this time apealed to an older audience.also at this time the
ventures were using the mosrite guitar ,i believe that without this guitar the
ventures would not have survived .this guitar gave them a sound they didn,t have
before.i know a lot of original ventures fans who where now turned off by there
formula of 6 current hits &6 originals .these were extremely simple arrangements
,easy to copy hence your garage bands.bottom line is any instro band that can
last for 45yrs. deserves a lot of credit .john
bruce d <> wrote:Amen, Marty!
The Shadows were and are a great Instro band. One of my favorites, and I love
the way Hank Marvin made his guitar sound!
However, The Ventures had the far greater reach and influence, precious-few US
guitar-stars will cite The Shadows as a major influence, but The Ventures have
been cited by hundreds as having enticed them by showing them on "Walk Don't
Run" how magical a guitar could sound.
Influence? Back in the days of "Centerfield" and "The Old Man Down The Road",
John Fogerty, whose 1960's band, Creedence Clearwater Revival, was one of the
TOP hit-making rock bands of the era, was interviewed by Guitar Player
Maganzine. He had this to say: "The Ventures arrangements made it easy to
figure out the chord changes in their songs. I learned how to use chord
structures in writing songs, from listening to The Ventures."
Influence? George Harrison acknowledged The Ventures as one of his influences!
Influence? Wasn't it Keith Moon, of The Who who stated "The Ventures In Space"
was his favorite LP of all time!
I don't know where the list ends, but about who's done more to earn it, it seems
to me there's little question The Ventures worked a helluva lot harder to expose
the world to their music, than The Shadows ever did.
At any time during the Brit Invasion, Hank, Bruce, Jet and the crew could have
come and toured the US. It would have been so easy! But They Never Did.
During those same years, our boys from Seattle, went to Japan, Australia,
Philippines, Mexico, England, Germany, and those are just the places I've read
about.
If Jorgen Ingmann, a Danish guitarist, who I believe had never been in the US,
could have a major hit here, with Apache, surely Hank Marvin and the Shadows
could have tried just a bit harder to reach out to this vast audience. From
the lack of even one U.S. Tour, us Yanks just weren't any kinda priority to ol'
Hank! Nope, he sure didn't reach out to us then, did he?
So now, some people are saying Hank and The Shadows are more deserving than The
Ventures, of admission to the RRHOF?
Ridiculous!
Bruce D
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
There is a good long list of name guitarists who site the Ventures as their
primary influence. Some of those in the U.K. that site the Shadows as an
influence also site the Ventures, Peter Frampton for one. Bob Berryhill of the
Surfaries told me of the early surf days, "we were all trying to be the
Ventures". I know he doesn't really speak for everyone, but there is enough
evidence to indicate that many surf bands where influenced by the Ventures.
That aside, I really think there is something to making it in the U.S. Yes, I
know it's not the American Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but this is the place
where rock was born. This is the proving ground. If you can get the attention of
the U.S., then you're a cut above. Did the Ventures have an advantage being born
here? Yep. But many other instrumental acts being born in the U.S. didn't make
it, try as they all did.
Was being English a disadvantage for the Shadows? Ask the Beatles.
-Marty
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Well Ivan,
I don't see the contradiction to Phil's argument that the Shadows did
not push the guitar envelope. The Shadows did prime many big name
English guitarists but, beyond introducing them to guitar, they had
little if any part in the evolution of the skills of those
guitarists. U.K. guitar skills were improved by looking to other
American guitar influences, primarily in the blues and jazz realm.
Looking at the big picture, The Shadows were a great band, quite
influntial in their part of the world though at a rudimentary level,
yet they didn't cause any kind of a stir in the U.S. The big names
that sight the Shadows as an influence shook the U.S. BUT those big
names had bigger influences than the Shadows. Much more often, in
interviews of the day the chief influence mentioned was the blues.
And even if some said the Shadows were an influence, the style they
played owed much more to other influences.
-Marty
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
>
> Bill and Phil,
>
> to recap: I wasn't arguing that the Shadows were more or even as
> influential on surf bands as the Ventures! That would obviously be
> a ridiculous argument. Without Ventures, no surf music - it's as
> simple as that. The Shadows obviously had at most a peripheral
> influence on the surf scene, and probably not even that. And I
know
> that MANY surf guitarists were inspired by the Ventures to pick up
> the guitar.
>
> What I WAS saying is that the Shadows actually inspired many more
> guitarists who ended up becoming legendary (even though many surf
> fans may not really like them) then the Ventures. As Marty
> admitted, the list of the big-name guitarists that claim the
> Ventures as a primary influence is much smaller than the list of
the
> big-name guitarists that claim the Shadows as a primary influence.
>
> Which actually also contradicts Phil's claim that the Shadows
> created only copy-cat bands that did not evolve the music much.
> Well, I would agree if the music we're talking about is strictly
r&r
> instrumentals. The fact is that we saw much greater evolution of
> rock instros in the US as part of the surf scene, than we did in
> England and Europe as a result of the popularity of the Shadows
> (though there were quite a few great, unknown bands that did a lot
> of cool stuff without just slavishly copying the Shads - they're
> just not known very well to most US surf fans, bands like the
> Hunters, the Phantoms, the Outlaws, the Fentones, the Eagles, the
> Dakotas, the Cougars, etc.). but if we're talking about the
> evolution of the rock music as a whole (for better or worse)
there's
> no doubt in my mind that the Shadows had much more impact than the
> Ventures. I mean, look at these bands: Queen, Pink Floyd, Deep
> Purple, Dire Straits, etc., etc. Now give me the names of some
huge
> (non-instrumental) sixties, seventies, or eighties band where the
> guitarist claimed the Ventures as the primary influence. (I'm sure
> there are some, but none come to mind.) So, I think the Shadows
> created much more rock evolution (again, in many cases for the
> worse) than the Ventures.
>
> It is also for this reason that I would say that the Shadows were
> VERY influential in the US! However, the influence was quite
> indirect. Obviously the Shads were never able to break through
here
> in any way shape or form (well, "You're The One That I Want" and
> another big hit from the movie Grease were written by one of the
> Shadows...), but their indirect influence was huge.
>
> Ivan
>
> PS And yes, I know all about the Ventures impact on Japan. That's
> simply not what I was talking about.
>
> --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> wrote:
> > Bill,
> >
> > I think your observations are right on the money. I've
> > talked with many US guitarists of the day, and have
> > been listening to this music since day one. What it
> > looks like to me goes something like this:
> >
> > The Shadows were virtually unknown in the US in the
> > sixties (only one LP release - the mistitled "Surfing
> > With The Shadows"), but they had a huge influence in
> > Britain and Europe. It was a different kind of
> > influence as well. Their sound was not just
> > influential, it was often copied outright, especially
> > today. It's hard to talk to an early sixties British
> > guitarist that doesn't mention them in their
> > influences list. Another difference is that they were
> > first down that sound path. One little piece of
> > evidence that they didn't influence US bands was the
> > one Shadows styled LP the Challengers did, a style
> > change they quickly dropped to return to surf.
> >
> > In the US, the Ventures inspired huge numbers of
> > players, many of which had a 5 years' earlier
> > influences laying ground work, from Link Wray, Johnny
> > and the Hurricanes, and the Fireballs, and more.
> > Unlike the Shadows, the Ventures didn't inspire a
> > thousand sound-alikes, but rather a thousand bands,
> > each with their own sound. They created an environment
> > friendly to rock instro evolution.
> >
> > Secondly, the Ventures' "Play Guitar With" series was
> > the teacher to a whole lot of beginners.
> >
> > Third, the Ventures took rock instro to Japan and
> > sparked the eleki scene, essentially launching a new
> > era in Japanese music and culture. The impact they had
> > on Japan should not be understated. It was immense.
> > Like the Shadows in Europe, many of the eleki bands
> > copied the Ventures, but others evolved their own
> > unique sound.
> >
> > Lastly, and by way of observation, the instrumentals
> > covered around the world by other than Shadows styled
> > bands are virtually all of American origin, either
> > from the Ventures songbook or surf. "Walk, Don't Run,"
> > "Pipeline," etc. It may likely be the energy in the
> > music that makes the difference. The Shadows played
> > extremely polish, often beautiful songs, sometimes
> > with lush arrangements. The Ventures, surfbands, etc.,
> > on the other hand, were rock 'n' roll.
> >
> > As a final note, I also don't think it's valid to try
> > to demonstrate which is more important or more
> > credible or whatever. They are very different, apples
> > and oranges so to speak, and both had an influence few
> > bands can claim.
> >
> > Phil Dirt
> >
> > --- supertwangreverb <supertwangreverb@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Maybe the Shadows had more of an impact in Britian,
> > > but I doubt that for America, or even Japan. My
> > > dad is dead now but by looking through his record
> > > collection it's fairly easy to see which band
> > > influenced a 16-18 year old guitarsist in 1964.
> > > I'm sure his collection is rather similar to
> > > the countless other American garage
> > > bands of the mid 60s. I'm also willing to bet
> > > the Ventures had more of an influence on the actual
> > > American surf bands at the time as well.
> > > Lastly, aren't the Ventures responsible for a
> > > cultural change in Japan during 1965?
> >
> > =====
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
wrote:
> However, The Ventures had the far greater reach and influence,
precious-few US guitar-stars will cite The Shadows as a major
influence, but The Ventures have been cited by hundreds as having
enticed them by showing them on "Walk Don't Run" how magical a
guitar could sound.
I've admitted several times that the Shadows had no influence on
American guitarists - but their influence on British guitarists was
huge. Ergo, to the extent that the British guitarists dominated the
seventies and early eighties rock music, the Shadows had more
influence. I mean, for God's sake, who were the big American guitar
stars during the seventies? The Eagles? It was all about the Brits.
> Influence? Back in the days of "Centerfield" and "The Old Man
Down The Road", John Fogerty, whose 1960's band, Creedence
Clearwater Revival, was one of the TOP hit-making rock bands of the
era, was interviewed by Guitar Player Maganzine. He had this to
say: "The Ventures arrangements made it easy to figure out the
chord changes in their songs. I learned how to use chord structures
in writing songs, from listening to The Ventures."
Good, fair enough. i do now remember reading that from Fogerty.
And though I actually really enjoy CCR, would we consider him a
major guitar hero? I don't think so.
> Influence? George Harrison acknowledged The Ventures as one of
> his influences!
This I have never seen, and I'm quite a Beatles fan! Have several
coffeetable books on the Beatles, read an enormous amount, and I
never heard of the Ventures influencing Harrison. He would always
point to earlier American players, such as Chet Atkins, Carl
Perkins, etc.
> Influence? Wasn't it Keith Moon, of The Who who stated "The
Ventures In Space" was his favorite LP of all time!
Umm, not a guitarist. But, yes, he did. And that's an important
point.
> I don't know where the list ends, but about who's done more to
earn it, it seems to me there's little question The Ventures worked
a helluva lot harder to expose the world to their music, than The
Shadows ever did.
Well, that's just ridiculous. The Shadows worked non-stop for
something like twenty years. And when the Shadows tour their own
country, such as they did last year, they sell out 5000-10000-seat
halls - could the Ventures do that in the USA? I don't think so.
> At any time during the Brit Invasion, Hank, Bruce, Jet and the
crew could have come and toured the US. It would have been so
easy! But They Never Did. During those same years, our boys from
Seattle, went to Japan, Australia, Philippines, Mexico, England,
Germany, and those are just the places I've read about.
They DID play in the US! They played on several tours backing Cliff
Richard, they even appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show. They toured
Australia, the Phillipines, Scandinavia, much of continental Europe,
they even played in Yugoslavia. (I don't think the Ventures ever
toured England - i may be wrong, but that was my impression. Maybe
a short tour in the eighties?)
> If Jorgen Ingmann, a Danish guitarist, who I believe had never
been in the US, could have a major hit here, with Apache, surely
Hank Marvin and the Shadows could have tried just a bit harder to
reach out to this vast audience. From the lack of even one U.S.
Tour, us Yanks just weren't any kinda priority to ol' Hank! Nope,
he sure didn't reach out to us then, did he?
No, that's just ridiculous. The fact is that the Shads were young
guys and they were steered by their management, maybe wrongly. The
fact is also that prior to the Beatles every British band that came
to the US bombed badly. Many people thought that it simply couldn't
be done. The Beatles only did it after they had several hits,
including a number 1, I think (or at least a top 10). Once the
Beatles did it, I think the Shads were SO BUSY just with all the
continental appearances and recording stuff that they didn't have
the time. Their problem in a way was that they weren't just their
own band, but had to back Cliff all the time, both on tour and
records. So, if Cliff's management decided against a US tour, the
Shads didn't go either.
And I think both Jorgen Ingmann's Apache and The Tornados Telstar
became hits by a pure fluke.
> So now, some people are saying Hank and The Shadows are more
deserving than The Ventures, of admission to the RRHOF?
Look, Bruce, chill out. You're obviously a huge Ventures fan - I am
obviously a huge Shadows fan. I think we both greatly enjoy
the 'other' band, too. So, whether the Shadows are more or less or
equally deserving as the Ventures is an utterly pointless argument.
Both bands have shaped modern music in dramatic ways, and they were
both great, and occasionally even genius-like. It's too bad the ROR
HOF won't recognize it for either band, but screw 'em.
My whole point was to give my homies props (did I just write
that?). There was too much Ventures-fans' chest-beating, and some
of it was coming at the expense of the Shadows, which I found
unacceptable! They both had their strengths and weakness, both
musicially and in their larger impact, so let's not quibble, OK?
Ivan
--- In , "mctippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
>
> Looking at the big picture, The Shadows were a great band, quite
> influntial in their part of the world though at a rudimentary
level,
> yet they didn't cause any kind of a stir in the U.S. The big names
> that sight the Shadows as an influence shook the U.S. BUT those
big
> names had bigger influences than the Shadows. Much more often, in
> interviews of the day the chief influence mentioned was the blues.
> And even if some said the Shadows were an influence, the style
they
> played owed much more to other influences.
First of all, the same could be said of the Ventures. Second of
all, there were several guys whose playing was very much shaped by
Hank, though of course other influences also were important.
Gilmour once said that his style was a result of being Hank one
night, and Clapton another. Slowly the two sides merged into his
own style. Knopfler has a style that was, at least initally,
clearly influenced by Hank (Hank was one of the first to use that in-
between pickup setting in England, the first time on record back
in '64 - though he used it with a Burns Marvin model, which is very
similar sounding to a Strat anyway).
I think it's almost impossible to find a serious guitarist who was
ever influenced by only one thing, so why should that apply here? I
think all of those guys that Hank got started thought of themselves
as continuing the progression that they saw in r&r - towards more
blues influence and heavier sounds. I'm sure they saw the early
Shadows as part of that (and dismissed them when the Shads failed to
keep up). But the fact is that the Shads were a MAJOR influence for
most of those guys, if obviously not THE major influence. That
should not detract from understanding the Shadows impact on the
later Brit rock scene, which I think any of those guys would tell
you was huge.
Ivan
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> > What I WAS saying is that the Shadows actually inspired many
more
> > guitarists who ended up becoming legendary (even though many
surf
> > fans may not really like them) then the Ventures.
>
> Ivan, someone would have to do a load of research to make that a
> valid point.
I understand, and I'm not providing any backing for this claim. It
is based on my twenty-plus years of reading a ton of guitar
magazines and books, and being especially sensitive to anything to
do with the Shadows (having been a huge fan already when I was 12)
when reading these interviews.
I think it's hard for most people that haven't paid much attention
to the Shadows - i.e., the great majority of Americans - to fully
appreciate how revolutionary the Shadows were in the UK (and much of
Europe). I have been researching everything Shadows related for a
long time, so I tend to take it for granted, and I forget that most
people here don't understand that. I recommend that you do some
research into it. Their impact was almost equivalent to
Beatlemania. They just kept knocking out top-ten hits one after
another for a period of three years, and after that golden period
they still kept having hits for a couple of years, in the middle of
the MerseyBeat years, which was quite an accomplishment. I once
even heard that some Fender guy said that the only reason why they
kept producing the Stratocaster in the mid sixties (so from '64
until '66) is that the demand for fiesta red Strats from Europe was
huge!
There were guys like Clapton, Page and Beck that were already
listening to American rock and blues before the Shadows hit, but for
most British musicians rock and roll music started either when they
heard one of Cliff's early hits like Move It, or more likely when
they heard Apache.
> Where are we taking these lists from? I really wonder how many of
> those people would have listed the Ventures as influences as
well.
I remember very few of them talking about the Ventures. Frampton
did, I don't think any of the others did. The Ventures were not a
big deal in UK in the sixties. Just another of hundreds of other
bands.
> I need more solid evidence to be swayed either way.
Can't provide it, sorry. But hopefully if you do some research on
your own you'll see that I'm right.
> I don't think you can argue which band created more of a rock
> evolution. But I think more people worldwide know of the
Ventures.
I just don't see that. I can honestly say that in all of central
and eastern Europe nobody cares about the Ventures, or has heard of
them. One of my dad's friends back in Croatia had some Ventures
records and I remember being fascinated by them at the age of 13 or
whatever cause I never saw them anywhere else. And he would never
play them for me! (Bastard!) On the other hand, tons of people had
the Shadows records. In most Mediterrenean countries, both European
and African, Shadows were as big or bigger than the Beatles (I have
a rock'n'roll history book from '68 that makes this exact point).
In all the former British colonies, so South Africa, Canada, India,
Australia, New Zealand, etc. the Shadows were KINGS! Nobody gave a
shit about the Ventures. The Ventures did very well in Japan,
Phillipines, maybe Australia, but where else?
Again, most Americans that tend to be very American-centric, have no
idea how the rest of the world feels about these things.
> Like Phil Dirt said, the Ventures impact on rock n' roll(and I
hope
> this is what you meant Phil) is more than just a list of Guitar
Gods
> citing Nokie Edwards as their idol(and there are A LOT). It's the
> foundations they layed for young guitarists starting out, the
whole
> act that started the concept behind garage rock, pick up a guitar
> and play. They were part of the driving force in America that
> influenced these kids, and I think they were the driving force for
> the Japanese kids.
I could say pretty much the same things about the Shadows.
Ivan
Yes, I agree that the same can be said about the Ventures diminishing
influence. It is true that the Shadows AND the Ventures influence on
any of the guitar heros of the late '60's early '70's including Jimi
Hendrix, Leslie West, Jimmy Page, Johnny Winter, Robin Trower, Rick
Derringer, Richie Blackmore was also about nill by the time of
Mississippi Queen. But the Ventures had already made their DIRECT
impact on America. By making that point about diminishing influence
of the Shadows, I am reinforcing that the Shadows didn't make a
significant enough impact on America either directly or indirectly.
I think we can also say that the Ventures harder edge, distorted
sound, early use of fuzz guitar wasn't quite as absent in the sound
of the heros that followed.
-Marty
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
>
> --- In , "mctippens" <mctippens@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Looking at the big picture, The Shadows were a great band, quite
> > influntial in their part of the world though at a rudimentary
> level,
> > yet they didn't cause any kind of a stir in the U.S. The big
names
> > that sight the Shadows as an influence shook the U.S. BUT those
> big
> > names had bigger influences than the Shadows. Much more often, in
> > interviews of the day the chief influence mentioned was the
blues.
> > And even if some said the Shadows were an influence, the style
> they
> > played owed much more to other influences.
>
> First of all, the same could be said of the Ventures. Second of
> all, there were several guys whose playing was very much shaped by
> Hank, though of course other influences also were important.
> Gilmour once said that his style was a result of being Hank one
> night, and Clapton another. Slowly the two sides merged into his
> own style. Knopfler has a style that was, at least initally,
> clearly influenced by Hank (Hank was one of the first to use that
in-
> between pickup setting in England, the first time on record back
> in '64 - though he used it with a Burns Marvin model, which is very
> similar sounding to a Strat anyway).
>
> I think it's almost impossible to find a serious guitarist who was
> ever influenced by only one thing, so why should that apply here?
I
> think all of those guys that Hank got started thought of themselves
> as continuing the progression that they saw in r&r - towards more
> blues influence and heavier sounds. I'm sure they saw the early
> Shadows as part of that (and dismissed them when the Shads failed
to
> keep up). But the fact is that the Shads were a MAJOR influence
for
> most of those guys, if obviously not THE major influence. That
> should not detract from understanding the Shadows impact on the
> later Brit rock scene, which I think any of those guys would tell
> you was huge.
>
> Ivan
>
who were the big American guitar
> stars during the seventies? The Eagles? It was all about the
Brits.
Ummm...Hendrix was late 60s early 70s. Don't give me that shit
about him starting off in Europe either! :)
Mike Bloomfield! Mr. Sunburst Les Paul himself, he could play
circles around Beck and Clapton, oh yeah, and he was REALLY playing
the blues.
>Can't provide it, sorry. But hopefully if you do some research on
>your own you'll see that I'm right.
Don't have time or really care enough too, and I DON'T think you're
right. This would need more research than this to sway my opinion.
>Shadows were as big or bigger than the Beatles (I have
>a rock'n'roll history book from '68 that makes this exact point).
>In all the former British colonies, so South Africa, Canada, India,
>Australia, New Zealand, etc. the Shadows were KINGS! Nobody gave a
>shit about the Ventures. The Ventures did very well in Japan,
>Phillipines, maybe Australia, but where else?
Your history book is from '68? Jeez update your books, history is
often proven to be different with more research.
But really I'll argue the point anyway, if you're history book is
correct, then the same thing could be said about the Shadows in
America, people here really didn't "give a shit" about them, they
did the Ventures. Whether you like it or not making it in America
is the key. The Beatles were able to, oh and by the way they had
massive tours in India, Australia, and New Zealand. Did the Shadows?
>Knopfler has a style that was, at least initally,
>clearly influenced by Hank (Hank was one of the first to use that
>in-
>between pickup setting in England, the first time on record back
>in '64 - though he used it with a Burns Marvin model, which is very
>similar sounding to a Strat anyway).
Ok, if we aren't talking about Stratocasters, James Burton predates
Marvin with Rick Nelson's "Travelin' Man" Hank Marvin wanted to
sound so much like Burton he ordered a Stratocaster thinking that
was what Burton was using.
>Again, most Americans that tend to be very American-centric, have no
>idea how the rest of the world feels about these things.
Yet the rest of the world can't keep their hands off our guitars! ;)
I'm not the hard core Ventures or Shadows authority like some of you
guys here, but from my own investigations, it is quite clear that The
Shadows ruled the UK and Europe while the Ventures had a more direct
influence on the US and Japan. Did the Shadows influence the 1st wave of
surf? Not as much as the Ventures, sure. But what about bands like the
Atlantics from Australia? They had a direct Shadows influence and were
considered a surf band as they were exposed to both. And I definitely
hear the Shadows influence in *modern* European surf bands where the
Shadows influence was inescapable.
As for why didn't the Shadows tour the US during the British
Invasion....well the Shadows weren't considered a British Invasion band!
Bands like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks, The Who, etc were very
different from The Shadows at the time and probably looked down their
noses at those older guys (even though they probably liked them and
learned from them when they first picked up guitars).
Clearly if there were justice in the world, both The Shadows & The
Ventures would be in the RRHOF. They both inspired multitudes of kids to
pick up guitars all over the world.
One thing that always kind of bugged me about the Ventures is their
trend hopping nature. Of course they claim it is because they like all
forms of music, and maybe that's true and more power to them. No one can
take away their power and contributions in the early-mid 60's, but to
release disco albums, Carpenters cover albums, Country albums, etc,
etc....either they really do like all that stuff or they are just trying
to stay in business (as in a business Venture). They openly admit that
they would listen to the top 40 hits of the day, pick a few, Venture-ize
them, and then record several originals in the same vein. Wham, there is
your next Ventures album. Is that wrong? I dunno. Is that easy to do?
Not at all, and they mastered it. They still put a fair amount of
creativity into those arrangements, and if you buy their argument that
"hey we musicians who just love to play our guitars" then I guess it's
okay. It's hard not to say "sell out" under your breath though....ouch.
I don't know very much about the Shadows in their later periods, but
Ivan has told me a little bit about their history and they kind of went
off the rails too during various times.
Still, all in all, both of those bands have had phenomenal careers with
longevity and success unheard of for "instrumental" bands. They both
deserve recognition equally IMHO. They both affected surf music. As I
see it, The Ventures directly influenced the 1st wave surf musicians
before surf existed; they also themselves jumped on the trend and helped
popularize it. The Shadows influence on surf came mainly in later waves,
but they did create quite a revolution in popular music in Europe and
England.
BN
Right-O. They, along with the Fireballs, gave the
arrangement to the surfbands, gave rock 'n' roll back
to kids in garages and at high school dances, and that
is what birthed surf more than anything else IMHO,
helped immensly by Leo Fender's volume and fullness.
Remember, British amps were very weak and thin back
then, as was everything in the US before the Fender
revolution of '62.
The number of players back then who learned from the
"PLay Guitar With..." series is endless. It did not
matter whether they played the Ventures or not, they
learned from them. Their sound was also much more
suburban (in appeal and reproduction) than anything
before it, as surf was in large part a suburban
phenomenom musically once it got going, and the garage
bands that followed of course.
--- supertwangreverb <>
wrote:
> Like Phil Dirt said, the Ventures impact on rock n'
> roll(and I hope this is what you meant Phil) is
> more than just a list of Guitar Gods citing Nokie
> Edwards as their idol (and there are A LOT).
> It's the foundations they layed for young
> guitarists starting out, the whole act that
> started the concept behind garage rock, pick up
> a guitar and play. They were part of the driving
> force in America that influenced these kids, and
> I think they were the driving force for the
> Japanese kids.
Bill
=====
