The new pickguard arrives and as expected I needed to modify the bridge post routing for the Tune-O-Matic bridge.
No big deal as long as you have the right tools.
Now I am able to locate the single coil mounting screws.
The Jaguar pickguard and metal switch plates all need to coordinate and looks like I got it pretty well aligned.
The switch plates all stripped of original wiring and ready to install all new wiring.
One resistor gets moved from a switch to a lower master tone.

Waiting for wire to arrive today.

Tqi
I will be watching how well the strings operate when using tremelo, or if they easily break on the Tune-O-Matic. The setup could be an improvement over the vintage bridges.
But I really don't like the engineering.

Last edited: Nov 07, 2022 09:38:28

DeathTide wrote:

I'm surprised that with all the tinkering that TOM bridge is still there! They're all abominations and should have never existed.**

So what exactly is your beef with a Tune-O-Matic?
I dislike the sharp edge and saddle finish for the string seat.
I have usually always worked on the string fit by 'flossing' the grooves with old set of wound strings, then polished.
I expect strings to creep.
And that's exactly what a vintage Jag bridge will do to some degree.

That all being said...I ordered a Fender American Mustang Cobain bridge..so there!

Last edited: Nov 07, 2022 10:41:20

Tqi wrote:

IceratzSurf wrote:

But I really don't like the engineering.

I just wanted to know if there were any markings on the Fender bridge!
**

Yes Tqi there are markings.

I am onto the wiring now but waiting for a 56k resistor.

Also waiting for the Mustang bridge which I know I will be happy for.

Here is a picture of the Tune-O-Matic.
The ones I have had on a Les Paul are superior.
At least with the Mustang bridge I can set the saddle heights independent and match neck radius.
Also I think the string spacing better matches the pickups poles.
The Tune-O-Matic was fitted for the humbuckers which do have closer poles.

Last edited: Nov 07, 2022 23:08:10

Tqi wrote:

Yeah, it was your "wobbling" comment that got me curious.(I really was joking earlier**

Tqi,
Hey got your joke and by no means was I suckered into the consideration to swap out bridges by your influence...that my upgrade efforts thus far "were just 2 drilled holes away to reach a quality Squire"...
snarky fun but I was not deterred.

What I looked at tho more carefully, after I dismantled much of the components was there were more fall backs of the factory equipped TOM.
And while I appreciate the other comments by other members I still need to make a decision on my own.

3 strikes and the Tune-O-Matic was out!

1) The mechanics of how it rocks compared to how traditional Jaguar- Mustang bridges rocks on pivot point.
The TOM simply used slop in the thread seat/thimble. There is no 'bearing point' its all on threads.

2) The saddle set radius did not match the 9.5 radius neck. The TOM was flatter.
The Mustang bridge I selected has adjustable saddle height.

3) The saddle spacing is only 48mm E-to-E. This matches poles of the Humbucker. The poles on the Jaguar single coil are 53mm+/- and the Mustang bridge is 53mm +/-

I am open to consider all of the options to replace the bridge in the future. It seems a search on what is practiced yields a wide variety of options and nearly everyone swaps out from the stock Jag AVRI.
I like adjustable saddle height but the width may also be a consideration.
Need to match the 9.5 neck radius on a modern C and work best for the 62 single coil poles.
While I experiment myself with this Mustang adjustable, will research all the fixed bridge roller saddle designs.
But most likely won't dive into the expense of a Mastery...which would be kind of like putting tech mag wheels on an economy vehicle.

Last edited: Nov 08, 2022 11:04:18

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Last edited: Feb 02, 2024 15:42:05

DeathTide wrote:

Sorry to not reply sooner. The tom bridges are universally hated so much that I've never considered them. Filing the slots would make them slip, right? The whole point of a rocking bridge is to hold the strings at the same place without slipping, with the aid of a high break angle, and don't hate me - fat strings! So the tom / JM / mustang style bridges need to be tall, and the Mastery needs a low break angle so the strings can slide.

I was just surprised because as far as I know, no one has gotten a tom to stay in tune on a JM or jag. But I'm a dummy and usually don't know what talking about!

I'll still send you an AVRI bridge if you wanna mess with it. I've got a bunch of extras.

T-O-Ms are routinely used with vibrato tailpieces on other makes. 335s have been equipped with Bigsby tailpieces, for example, and I actually used to own one. I’ve only owned four offsets, so I don’t claim to be an 11/10ths expert, but my personal experience was that the rocking bridge was not an overwhelming success. The problem, as I see it, is that it can rock too much. I know that there are any number of approaches to controlling this, from masking tape, to sleeves around the bridge posts, and I wouldn’t claim to know which is the best solution.

The other aspect is the downforce resultant of string tension, over the bridge. I’ve been playing since the days when the Jaguar was the top of Fender’s line and even back then, there was a reputation for having strings jump out of the string slots in the bridge.

So there are two requirements in play here; the ability to accommodate the vibrato tailpiece, which favors lower (overall) string tension, and the stability of the strings in the bridge, which favors a higher resultant downforce on the bridge, which isn’t going to make the strings slip over the bridge more readily.

I tend to come down on the side of higher tension. I never have tuning stability issues, but I tend to be conservative in my approach to the use of vibrato tailpieces. Most of my playing is on a Gretsch, with a Bigsby, a solid (one piece) bridge which sits upon a wooden bridge base. In moderate use, the bridge bends a bit, or more accurately the threaded rods which anchor the bridge to the bridge base bend slightly. If I really dive bomb the Bigsby, the strings will slip over the bridge, but I usually avoid dive bombing.

Guitars are mechanically simple. Even a guitar with a vibrato tailpiece is still pretty simple; a low friction fulcrum that balances string tension against the tension of a spring (or springs). It should be simple, but binding points can upset the apple cart. When used sparingly, most vibrato tailpieces work pretty well, but not everyone wants to use one sparingly. Van Valen led the way, and led us into the era of the pointy Super Strat with a Floyd Rose. If I wanted to do some whammy bar gymnastics, I would probably be shopping in a different section of the store and would go after something with a Floyd, or a similar tailpiece, designed for that sort of duty.

When it comes to an Offset, the fundamentals still apply. String tension (both speaking length and downforce), friction (strings over the bridge and strings through the nut), friction in the tailpiece fulcrum and bridge stability. It’s that simple. If you look at all of the solutions out there, they all tend to affect one or more of these factors.

A more deeply cut bridge allows less downforce without the string popping out of the bridge element. Moving the tailpiece closer to the bridge increases resultant downforce on the bridge. The various approaches to stabilizing the bridge posts addresses bridge stability. My take would be to use non-moving bridge posts and possibly a tailpiece mounted closer to the bridge. I would not expect to be able to do deep dive bombs with such a setup, but that wouldn’t bother me. YMMV.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

IceratzSurf wrote:

^^^^ Synchro that's all great feedback and I agree! ^^^^

I am curious about the setup I am aiming for now, considering this HH model does have the tremelo tailpiece moved forward to the bridge, than a vintage issue, and increases the break angle.
How much increased downforce on bridge, I don't know?
The string is technically under the same tension it would be for the vintage setups, but its the string angle causing the downforce and holds the string in the saddle that's the improvement.

I measure 10cm from the string exit point of the tremelo to the bridge saddle string bearing.

Can someone measure a standard Jaguar to get an idea?

It would come down to the angle. It involves a lot of trigonometry, but each segment would make its own contribution to the sum. Moving that tailpiece closer to the bridge will make a significant difference. Asked upon my experience with that ‘66 Jag RI, more downforce would be a good thing.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

It's Alive..It's ALIVE!

Loaded the wired works into the guitar..plugged it in amp and gave it the screw driver load tests.
Also using my fingernails..it sounded off according to all switching and tonal range.
I still need to add a 56k resistor to the master tone pot...its shipped.

The hookup was not without puzzling surprises.
On the first assembly only the neck pickup worked in lower main circuit.
WTF..
I thought that the routes within the switches themselves were different than the 62' wiring requirements.

Tore the plates open and began meter testing everything.
The Lead bridge pickup is totally dead.
Well NO..the Hot solder contact
on the pickup base was grounding out..through the standoff spring..into the all shielded cavities. The Stew Mack adjustable foam spring standoffs are nice with good tension adjustment.
But.if I only used foam I never would have discovered the flaw.

The other issue was the Rhythm circuit was totally dead. Why when then neck pickup works on Main?
Same problem but sort of reversed.
I isolated both pickups with 1/8" rubber shim and this keeps base off the coil spring contacts.
Full copper foil shielding on a guitar is excellent grounding and definitely helps 60 cycles hum of single coil pickups. Nearly every guitar I have done this to, with telecaster improving the most.
But you definitely need to watch for unwanted grounding everywhere in the circuit.
The Rhythm controls are small and fit even smaller in the body routing.
Every terminal is close to walls.

After the issues resolved, everything tested properly and I am way over the hump towards completing.

New bridge to be mounted and ground wired to the master central ground pole established.

TOTALLY psyched!!

Last edited: Nov 08, 2022 21:18:20

IceratzSurf wrote:

It's Alive..It's ALIVE!

Loaded the wired works into the guitar..plugged it in amp and gave it the screw driver load tests.
Also using my fingernails..it sounded off according to all switching and tonal range.
I still need to add a 56k resistor to the master tone pot...its shipped.

The hookup was not without puzzling surprises.
On the first assembly only the neck pickup worked in lower main circuit.
WTF..
I thought that the routes within the switches themselves were different than the 62' wiring requirements.

Tore the plates open and began meter testing everything.
The Lead bridge pickup is totally dead.
Well NO..the Hot solder contact
on the pickup base was grounding out..through the standoff spring..into the all shielded cavities. The Stew Mack adjustable foam spring standoffs are nice with good tension adjustment.
But.if I only used foam I never would have discovered the flaw.

The other issue was the Rhythm circuit was totally dead. Why when then neck pickup works on Main?
Same problem but sort of reversed.
I isolated both pickups with 1/8" rubber shim and this keeps base off the coil spring contacts.
Full copper foil shielding on a guitar is excellent grounding and definitely helps 60 cycles hum of single coil pickups. Nearly every guitar I have done this to, with telecaster improving the most.
But you definitely need to watch for unwanted grounding everywhere in the circuit.
The Rhythm controls are small and fit even smaller in the body routing.
Every terminal is close to walls.

After the issues resolved, everything tested properly and I am way over the hump towards completing.

New bridge to be mounted and ground wired to the master central ground pole established.

TOTALLY psyched!!

Nice work. You’ve really moved fast on this, and your workmanship looks great. I’ll love to hear how it sounds.

I should add that the single coils just look right, for this guitar. I have nothing against the humbuckers, but Jaguars and single coils are a natural pairing.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

Last edited: Nov 08, 2022 22:35:42