All that other stuff aside, straight 16th's can sound kind of boring and flat. Syncopation is what really makes it come alive and makes it swing.

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Last edited: Feb 01, 2017 12:42:27

Great points by Victor and Jeff, I agree.

DreadInBabylon wrote:

Let us not forget his roots: Middle-Eastern music from his (Lebanese) father, and his gang.
Bouzouki, Oud and the likes, instruments that inherently have pretty short sustain - the players' control of super-fast tremolo picking is essential to produce continuous sound at different amplitudes. In other words - it's more about creating drones than notes.
Usually un-amplified, with a small resonance-box, that means necessity of tons of power, dynamic ability and above all - accuracy. Especially in an ensemble context (which it always is). The result is a very fine, densely woven texture.

Absolutely! All very important.

Also, Martial Arts! I'm serious.
Power should come from the core. Look how centered he always is, feet grounded, drawing heat from the earth, shoulders level - firm but relaxed.
using the common Chinese names, This is Ma-Bu (horse stance)
This is Gun-Bu (bow and arrow stance)

You know, I didn't know about the martial arts connection, but you're absolutely right about the importance of the stance! In the Space Cossacks we used to joke about that a lot - 'assume the stance' before we'd play something really fast! That centering is SO important when playing parts that are physically demanding and rigorous - you gotta be grounded, you gotta be stable, legs spread out helps so much! As does having the guitar hang in its proper place - not too low, not too high. No Beatles 'guitar-under-the-chin' nonsense - or equally, no Jimmy Page "Les-Paul-by-the-knees" nonsense! The right arm has to be positioned in exactly the right place on the guitar to get the necessary strength and power. I always thought Dick had his guitar hanging on the strap in exactly the right place. Very important! (And it looks great, too!)

Ivan
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SanchoPansen wrote:

But you do string your right hand guitar upside down, don't you? May I ask you to specify why you do this, as I don't seem to comprehend due to several reasons.

Back in 1959 0r 1960 my dad, who was a friend of Dick Dale's dad, introduced me to Dick. Dick and I hit it off and he gave me some guitar lessons.

Maybe ten months later my parents bought me a Strat, which was strung right-side up, the way a guitar is normally strung and I played it that way all though high school.

Back then, guitars were stung with heavy strings and there were not many sets to choose from other than heavy and medium.

Move forward to 1969 when I returned from Nam and was stationed at Fort Bragg.

I have always been into R&B and big band music, so, one of the brothers in my MP unit took me downtown to hear a band that my dad first introduced me to around the time I began to take an interest in the guitar. The bands leader was Albert King. My MP buddy knew him and after the show we went in the alley to talk.

Albert had this big pulsating sound and played through some goofy looking Bo Didley guitar shaped like a V.

I asked him how he got such a thundering sound and he related he played a right handed guitar upside down, low E string on the bottom.

He related that because he preferred light gauge strings, to get a big bottom sound he reversed the strings. No Showman, No Twin. After taking, we got to jam together. That was an experience. (Mind you, this was 1969, down South were race relations were not what they are today)

Since I didn't have anything better to do during my off duty hours on base I flipped my strings and began practicing that way. With my 14 gauge strings, I really got some bitchin' bottom end.

In the ensuing years, except for goofing off with Dick or playing bass with him in the early 70's in Riverside, when I graduated from college and got my gold badge and handgun I put the guitar away until around 94 or 95 when I ran into one of my high school buddies and we started playing again.

I will play for a year or so, lose interest for a few years, then pick the Strat up again.

Because Dick has been a very long time personal friend, the fact he gave me my first guitar lessons, the fact we jam together often, without doubt I play similar to him, but our tones and styles are as different as our personalities.

Moving on to the subject of the Thread, DD's tone, if you can find a copy of Jim Messina's recording of The Thing and Dick's Surfin' Drums, both Bo Didley rep-offs.

Since Jim and I often were involved in battle of the bands while in high school, I could tell you some hilarious stories of how I used to scramble Jim's head when he was putting in a lot of time trying to be Dick Dale, but that is for another time.

Anyway, getting back to the Thread, Jim got a Strat at a pawn shop, painted it pearl white, then got a Showman and reverb. Because I was a friend of Dicks, Jim would ask me at one of the CYA dances in Colton, where does Dick put the knobs on his Amp and Reverb.

Jim was probably the best overall musician among all of us as well as spending a ton of time trying to copy Dick's style and tone

Listen to the two recordings I mentioned above. Similar song, months of learning a playing technique, same gear, but without doubt significantly different.

That is what I was talking about in my earlier thread-no two players will sound the same.

A lot of rambling, but I am in bed down with the flu and someone on this Thread took my words out of context, tried to make them into something I did not say, and I was not about to let that happen.

SurfBeat wrote:

Moving on to the subject of the Thread, DD's tone, if you can find a copy of Jim Messina's recording of The Thing and Dick's Surfin' Drums, both Bo Didley rep-offs.

Oh yea, no question! And The Thing is very obviously a rip-off of Surfin' Drums - or the original version of Surfin' Drums, Jungle Fever! (Jungle Fever was the b-side of the original version of Shake 'n' Stomp (not the version everybody knows), while Surfin' Drums came out a bit later on the Surfers' Choice LP). I'm attaching some videos of all of these below, including one cheeky inclusion.

Since Jim and I often were involved in battle of the bands while in high school, I could tell you some hilarious stories of how I used to scramble Jim's head when he was putting in a lot of time trying to be Dick Dale, but that is for another time.

Can't wait!

Anyway, getting back to the Thread, Jim got a Strat at a pawn shop, painted it pearl white,

This is definitely true - I have an interview with Messina where he talks about this very thing.

Jim was probably the best overall musician among all of us as well as spending a ton of time trying to copy Dick's style and tone

Yep, that is very obvious, too.

Listen to the two recordings I mentioned above. Similar song, months of learning a playing technique, same gear, but without doubt significantly different.

Agreed. Messina gets close, but he still sounds like himself and not like Dick. And that's definitely a good thing!

That is what I was talking about in my earlier thread-no two players will sound the same.

Absolutely.

(BTW, notice a couple of things on Jungle Fever: Dick's tone is bone dry, no reverb. Also, he still had the trem arm on his Strat and he uses it at various points of the song, shaking it here and there or lowering the pitch of some notes and double-stops.)

Ivan
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Last edited: Feb 01, 2017 19:27:33

IvanP wrote:

(BTW, notice a couple of things on Jungle Fever: Dick's tone is bone dry, no reverb. Also, he still had the trem arm on his Strat and he uses it at various points of the song, shaking it here and there or lowering the pitch of some notes and double-stops.)

IP, I had just started running with Dick when he was playing around with Jungle Fever. I was hooked on Ike Turner at the time, who had a Strat and made good use of the whammy bar. (Listen to Prancin' if you can find it) I would kid Dick that he was ripping off Turner and Dick would say, "who the .... is Ike Turner?"

Turner was the king of the whammy bar then, long before he hooked up with that wild lady. Anyone remember her name? lol I've seen him perform many times and I wish I had been given the opportunity to sit down and talk shop.

Talking about 45's, Dick and I still argue whether or not he used a reverb for the flip side of Miserlou, 8 Til Midnight. He says "you don't remember," or you weren't even there" (which I was not) that he did not use a reverb for either song.

Now that you already learned The Thing for the SG show, and found Surfin' Drums to listen to, I am sure you can definitely hear a significant difference between the two players.

Jim spent hours each day trying to copy Dick. Instead of going to a DD show with a girl, or just get out on the dance floor dancing, Jim would stand at the bottom of the stage staring at Dick from 8 til midnight.

Then, at an intermission, I would meet Dick when he left the stage, then go on stage and act a if I were adjusting the knobs on the amp of reverb. (I was not doing anything-just busting Jim"s balls>

Jim would then grab me when I came down the steps from the stage and ask, what does he have his controls set to, what did you do. I would say, Dick told me to lock his pan. (I did not do anything-Dick would lick my butt if I did)

My friend would tell me a few days later that Jim found the Dick sound, he locked his reverb pan. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

Hilarious stuff. Unbelievable.

Here is the article from the Vintage Guitar magazine where Messina talks about his Strat, Dick Dale and his surf days. Pretty brief, but it's there. (Hopefully you can read it - try to enlarge it on your computer if it's too small.)

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

SurfBeat wrote:

SanchoPansen wrote:

But you do string your right hand guitar upside down, don't you? May I ask you to specify why you do this, as I don't seem to comprehend due to several reasons.

Back in 1959 0r 1960 my dad, who was a friend of Dick Dale's dad, introduced me to Dick. Dick and I hit it off and he gave me some guitar lessons.

Maybe ten months later my parents bought me a Strat, which was strung right-side up, the way a guitar is normally strung and I played it that way all though high school.

Back then, guitars were stung with heavy strings and there were not many sets to choose from other than heavy and medium.

Move forward to 1969 when I returned from Nam and was stationed at Fort Bragg.

I have always been into R&B and big band music, so, one of the brothers in my MP unit took me downtown to hear a band that my dad first introduced me to around the time I began to take an interest in the guitar. The bands leader was Albert King. My MP buddy knew him and after the show we went in the alley to talk.

Albert had this big pulsating sound and played through some goofy looking Bo Didley guitar shaped like a V.

I asked him how he got such a thundering sound and he related he played a right handed guitar upside down, low E string on the bottom.

He related that because he preferred light gauge strings, to get a big bottom sound he reversed the strings. No Showman, No Twin. After taking, we got to jam together. That was an experience. (Mind you, this was 1969, down South were race relations were not what they are today)

Since I didn't have anything better to do during my off duty hours on base I flipped my strings and began practicing that way. With my 14 gauge strings, I really got some bitchin' bottom end.

In the ensuing years, except for goofing off with Dick or playing bass with him in the early 70's in Riverside, when I graduated from college and got my gold badge and handgun I put the guitar away until around 94 or 95 when I ran into one of my high school buddies and we started playing again.

I will play for a year or so, lose interest for a few years, then pick the Strat up again.

Because Dick has been a very long time personal friend, the fact he gave me my first guitar lessons, the fact we jam together often, without doubt I play similar to him, but our tones and styles are as different as our personalities.

Moving on to the subject of the Thread, DD's tone, if you can find a copy of Jim Messina's recording of The Thing and Dick's Surfin' Drums, both Bo Didley rep-offs.

Since Jim and I often were involved in battle of the bands while in high school, I could tell you some hilarious stories of how I used to scramble Jim's head when he was putting in a lot of time trying to be Dick Dale, but that is for another time.

Anyway, getting back to the Thread, Jim got a Strat at a pawn shop, painted it pearl white, then got a Showman and reverb. Because I was a friend of Dicks, Jim would ask me at one of the CYA dances in Colton, where does Dick put the knobs on his Amp and Reverb.

Jim was probably the best overall musician among all of us as well as spending a ton of time trying to copy Dick's style and tone

Listen to the two recordings I mentioned above. Similar song, months of learning a playing technique, same gear, but without doubt significantly different.

That is what I was talking about in my earlier thread-no two players will sound the same.

A lot of rambling, but I am in bed down with the flu and someone on this Thread took my words out of context, tried to make them into something I did not say, and I was not about to let that happen.

So exactly where did this 1969 Albert King gig take place?

METEOR IV on reverbnation

IvanP wrote:

Talking about 45's, Dick and I still argue whether or not he used a reverb for the flip side of Miserlou, 8 Til Midnight. He says "you don't remember," or you weren't even there" (which I was not) that he did not use a reverb for either song.

Yeah, I've heard him say the same many times, and it's clearly wrong. It's VERY easy to hear reverb on both of those tracks - whereas it's also very easy to hear that there was no reverb on Let's Go Trippin', Del-Tone Rock, Shake 'n' Stomp (the original single version, not the Surfers' Choice version) and Jungle Fever. Those are his four instrumental tracks recorded without reverb - all the others had reverb. End of story.

Ivan, don't challenge Dick on our observations above, he will rip ya apart.

He has told me a hundred times spanning four decades he recorded those tunes in a long hallway which produced the reverb effect. The "pop" on Midnight makes clear the argument, but, I was not present when the recording was made, so I have no 1st hand knowledge about the issue.

It is just fun to argue with him and I always lose.

This is the JM 45 I found in the garage yesterday and Dick and I tearing it up one night.