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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Surf Musician »

Permalink Dick Dale and Left-Handed Picking Dynamics

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When trying to learn or practice a DD tune it seems that there's certain picking dynamics happening that's almost impossible to replicate if you're a right-handed guitar player. I'm referring to leftys that string their guitar upside down (high E at top).

Much of it is subtle and the average listener might not pick up on it, but as a musician / guitar player I find it obsessively challenging. I do my best on certain songs but sometimes close is the best I can do.

I've watched a few videos of right-handed players playing DD tunes and see the same "missing" dynamics.

Just wondering what others think and how my fellow rightys here go about trying to capture the picking style of DD and the like.

METEOR IV on reverbnation

Last edited: Jan 30, 2017 12:38:04

Not that I know anything about anything - but if you think part of the answer is the "upside down" stringing - have you tried re-stringing your guitar? Presumably then it should make no difference if you are right handed?

Wherever you go, there you are

http://rogerfowles.co.uk/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKUsTNis44w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKauwombaC8

I know what you mean, but what is the point of restringing your guitar upside down as a righty? Lefties only did this because of the lack of lefty guitars available. But stringing upside down as a righty seems to be the worst idea ever. I can only imagine that someone desperately wants to be (like) Dick Dale and strings his guitar upside down as a righty. That's quite pathetic if you ask me Wink
Try to give the song your own personal taste and don't try to copy someone is my suggestion here.

The Hicadoolas

Last edited: Jan 30, 2017 04:17:23

It's the idiosyncrasies that makes Dick's playing style so charming. Like those Reggae sounding chops that come out of nowhere when you least expect, at places you'd never think of playing yourself as a righty.

I'd never restring my guitar to accomplish this. Am in the process of restringing grand-daughter's cheap RH guitar she bought from a schoolmate (not understanding) until she can save for a cheap lefty. What Kilian said x2; I wouldn't put her through that just because DD had to find his own way at the time.

I still think that one of the things we hear is the fact that DD's personal emphasis is on the downstroke, which is an upstroke for players (right or left) with a normally strung guitar. Accent some upstrokes, or play it your own way, go forth & be happy. Just my $.02.
Smile

Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.

SanchoPansen wrote:

I know what you mean, but what is the point of restringing your guitar upside down as a righty? Lefties only did this because of the lack of lefty guitars available. But stringing upside down as a righty seems to be the worst idea ever. I can only imagine that someone desperately wants to be (like) Dick Dale and strings his guitar upside down as a righty. That's quite pathetic if you ask me Wink

I recall that there was a Dick Dale tribute band where the guitar player did exactly this.

Site dude - S3 Agent #202
Need help with the site? SG101 FAQ - Send me a private message - Email me

"It starts... when it begins" -- Ralf Kilauea

What an effort just to sound like someone else. I'd rather be myself instead. But I guess it's whatever makes you happy.

The Hicadoolas

Las_Barracudas wrote:

Just wondering what others think and how my fellow rightys here go about trying to capture the picking style of DD and the like.

It could be the headstock. Do you know the Squier Super Sonic guitars for example? They have got a reversed headstock. So the high e string has got more material on the headstock. And I always thought that this fact gives a little more punch in the whole high string section.

Twang cheers!

Ralf Kilauea

www.kilaueas.de

https://kilaueas.bandcamp.com/album/touch-my-alien

Last edited: Jan 30, 2017 15:59:39

I completely agree people should be striving for their own sound. Re-stringing the guitar wasn't a particulary serious suggestion - I don't expect anyone would do it (although apparently someone did!) It was just a direct response to a direct question - how could a right handed player replicate the sound of a left handed player who is using "upside down" strings.....

Wherever you go, there you are

http://rogerfowles.co.uk/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKUsTNis44w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKauwombaC8

Oh sorry, I wasn't addressing you with my post, just the general thought of copying something in order to achieve what has been done before.
I think to sound like Dick Dale, you have to be Dick Dale. No matter in which order you string up your guitar.
There are too many things that make a guitar player unique...but now that you aware of the little quirks of his playing, you can try to implement some parts of it into your own playing.

The Hicadoolas

Last edited: Jan 30, 2017 09:58:11

Hmmm, did my recent videos start some of this? Is trying to learn the subtleties of another guitarist's style incompatible with having your own style? Does the below video mean that Jeff Beck doesn't have his own sound and style?

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Las_Barracudas wrote:

When trying learn or practice a DD tune it seems that there's certain picking dynamics happening that's almost impossible to replicate if you're a right-handed guitar player. I'm referring to leftys that string their guitar upside down (high E at top).

Much of it is subtle and the average listener might not pick up on it, but as a musician / guitar player I find it obsessively challenging. I do my best on certain songs but sometimes close is the best I can do.

Wes and I talked a little bit about that here. I personally think that's just unavoidable. A righty is just not going to sound like DD. NOBODY actually is going to sound exactly like DD. It's impossible. But it sure is fun - at least for me - to see how close I can get! Smile

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

IvanP wrote:

But it sure is fun - at least for me - to see how close I can get! Smile

Me too! Big Grin

Funny thing I've found in learning others' songs (and going back over some home recordings) is that - no matter what - I never end up sounding like them. It could be some little thing that works mechanically better for me (lack of skill / not playing for 20yrs / still nugging it out / joint limitation) or simply that it was a JM & I think it sounds better on a Strat with a little less reverb & a little more echo... it's kind of like the difference between chasing the sun & chasing one's tail. I prefer the former.

Caveat: I would regard doing something in the realm of a dedicated tribute band a different animal. DD is what makes DD.

Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.

IvanP wrote:

Hmmm, did my recent videos start some of this? Is trying to learn the subtleties of another guitarist's style incompatible with having your own style? Does the below video mean that Jeff Beck doesn't have his own sound and style?

Ivan P. That video is the reason I play Hodad music, R&B drenched with west coast culture music.

Regarding the issue of lefty players getting more dynamics, since you mentioned DD, I can speak from experience. I make that statement because I've been running with the King off and on since he gave me my 1st lesson in 1959 at his house in Costa Mesa, down to the Mansion in NB, and now the desert drive to his Ranch often. I am always challenging the King.

Speaking from my experience based upon learning from Dick, then trying to take what I learned from him and make an effort to mimic Albert King, tone is something formed in your personality. Sure, the amp and guitar plays essential parts, but the way you feel music plays a very important part.

You, I, Messina, etc., will never sound like Dick, no matter how hard you, me, he or anyone else tries. (Merely an opinion, based not on any empirical studies)

For instance, at SG101 you got close to JM, but you are not Jim, don't ahve his personality, so you won't be exact. That does not translated into you not being as gifted.

Back in 1964, Jim was a very talented musician, much oer proficient than most of us at the time, but Jimbo was spending hours copying Dick's style. Similar yes, but still a long way off.

You are an accomplished guitar player, so, focus on your own personality and make that come through your playing, not someone else. Musicians then will be copying you.

To respond to a post by Chris above, I am gonna take you on a trip down memory lane, to around 1960 when my brother and I were dining out one day at a hamburger spot near our house.

Someone dropped a dime in the jukebox and I hear the artist singing some lame hillbilly tune, then the guitarist starts picking tremolo style, my first experience. I said to my brother, probably in obscenities, that ..... can play.

We then hop on our bikes,(the kind you peddle, not kick start) and haul down to the local record store. After sneaking in some Red Foxx records into the booth, I get a copy of the hillbilly song, Mule Skinner Blues.

I later learn the guitarist is Jim Sundquist of the Fendermen and sometime thereafter I sent him a letter to get the low down on his playing style. Mind you, this is at least a year before DD is double picking. Sundquist became my influence, merged with the high energy of the Wailers, specifically Dick Dangel.

The long n' short of this tale, play who you are, not who you want to be.

Since the subject is about Dick's tone, those darn tribute bands make me sick; Clapton, Hendrix, Beck, etc., and a myriad of others.

Last week I was at a musician conference where at least 75% of the attendees were dressed like someone else, Hendrix, Clapton, Beck, Beatles, etc. Those, like me that was dressed like me got zero attention. (Maybe that was the reason)

Maybe tribute bands were already a sore spot before I arrived at the conference because before I stated focusing on different venues to perform at, the promoters were only looking for tribute bands. It did not matter that I had recorded in the early sixties, or my band was made up now of professional players, not high school kids back then; what mattered was whether I was a tribute band.

Going to a specific venue where new acts take the place of the old acts, i.e., a Beatles event, Elvis show, English Invasion, even a SG101 conference, one would expect to see and hear a tribute band. Having to compete for such a spot is understandable. Learn the artists music.

But damn, it seems like today, the venues available to perform are getting scarcer unless you dress up to look like someone else.

In response to Chris, since I play a half dozen of Dick's tunes, maybe I will cut my hair, make a pony tale, paint my Strat gold, get rid of all my other tunes and concentrate on Dick's tunes.

That may get me a gig at SG101 at some future date.

Just some comments from an old fart.

Last edited: Feb 01, 2017 17:52:56

SurfBeat wrote:

You will never sound like Dick, no matter how hard you try. At SG101 you got close to JM, but the reason was that Jimbo copied Dick. Close yes, but still a long way off.

Thanks! Of course, I was not trying to sound like DD there, but Jim Messina!

You are an accomplished guitar player, so, focus on your own personality and make that come through your playing, not someone else.

Well, I've played only surf/instro music for the past 21 years, and in that time released six studio albums of (mostly) original material with two of my bands. Those two bands have eight tracks in total in the Top 101 Surf Revival list, and 16 tracks in total in the American Top 101 Surf Revival list. Five of those six albums released in time for the Top 101 Surf Albums were included. My playing 'personality' is pretty much set, and it's done alright for me so far. I don't really feel I need to focus on it much anymore.

These darn tribute bands make me sick. It is like copying from someone else during an exam. You will never be like someone else. Take the songs, but make them your own.

I don't agree with this. I've been playing in a Shadows tribute band since 2000, we've probably played some 75 shows or so in that time, and I always have a blast. A big part of the reason is that I get to play in that band with my dad (he plays rhythm guitar), but another part of is that it's been incredibly instructive to learn to play Hank Marvin's parts as closely as I possibly can. It has done wonders with my own playing - as well as ultimately determining my style, to the extent it actually exists. I've also done three tributes for the SG101 conventions over the past four years: the Penetrators, the Atlantics and Jim Messina & the Jesters. And each time I had an absolute blast! For one thing, learning most of these songs really kicked my behind and forced me to step up my game to be able to do them justice. For another, really immersing myself into another player's style and tone always changed my perspective in some important ways and challenged my own comfort zone. It's incredible how easily we fall into that comfort zone, and it's a very good thing to shake that up every so often. And it's a personal challenge: can I do this? I don't see any downsides. It's a TRIBUTE, it's paying respect to the amazing guitarists and bands that have had a large influence on me and whose music I deeply love. Maybe it's different with pro tributes to big bands, the Stones, AC/DC. Led Zep, whatever, those guys are probably also doing it for the money. But for me it was entirely a matter of showing my respect and my love for these artists. So, what's the problem? I would consider it an immense honor if somebody did that for me once I'm gone or no longer playing - or even while still playing! Smile

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Last edited: Jan 30, 2017 14:40:53

Sigh...

Site dude - S3 Agent #202
Need help with the site? SG101 FAQ - Send me a private message - Email me

"It starts... when it begins" -- Ralf Kilauea

Brian wrote:

SanchoPansen wrote:

I know what you mean, but what is the point of restringing your guitar upside down as a righty? Lefties only did this because of the lack of lefty guitars available. But stringing upside down as a righty seems to be the worst idea ever. I can only imagine that someone desperately wants to be (like) Dick Dale and strings his guitar upside down as a righty. That's quite pathetic if you ask me Wink

I recall that there was a Dick Dale tribute band where the guitar player did exactly this.

I know of two people that did it.

SurfBeat wrote:

These darn tribute bands make me sick. It is like copying from someone else during an exam. You will never be like someone else. Take the songs, but make them your own.

Isn't your whole act covering Dick Dale? Upside down strings and all? That's all I've seen on youtube. You call it hodad music, but it's Dick Dale music.

Don't get me wrong. If that's what you want to do, go crazy. But don't bag on others for doing it too.

And, I personally look forward to seeing the tribute acts at SG101. They are some of my favorite shows. Because I know guys like Ivan will try their best to get it exactly right. And, often it's tributes to people who aren't around anymore, not a guy that I go see at least once a year.

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

I think one time tribute shows versus full time tribute bands are getting conflated.

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

Sonichris wrote:

>
SurfBeat wrote:*

Isn't your whole act covering Dick Dale? Upside down strings and all? That's all I've seen on youtube. You call it hodad music, but it's Dick Dale music.

Chris: My Showmens song list contains 52 songs of which I think six of them are Dale's and most of the remaining are vocals-R&B tunes from the late fifties. On that note, my band is not a whole Dick Dale show, it is but a small part.

Because some of the rockabilly events we perform at demand we play a set with more instrumentals, I do that and when I do I often go back to the 30's and 40's for material, music my parents danced to. I "surf" it up because of my experience within the genre.

Most of the YT tunes were re-recorded from my old tapes. Two years ago we were hired for a music festival to play CA surf-culture music, so, out went the R&B and back to my tapes from the past and redid them with a few new band members.

FYI, the selling point I tried to make to get Axle to retain your band was that you were 100% instrumental because that is what he wanted-no vocals. Because of the expense, and the fact that he pointed out there were several local bands he could retain, he went that route, picking up Bob Spickard from the Chantays. I tried hard to get you retained because you were outside the cadre of usual CA bands.

Since you were not around in the early sixties through pre Pulp Fiction days, maybe mid 90's, you may not be aware that like me, Dick's repertoire consisted of more vocals than instrumentals. It was not until Pulp Fiction re-ignited Dick's reputation that he forgot about the past and concentrated on instrumentals.

In the early sixties when surf music hit the scene, a band did not last long if they only played instrumentals. Just look at the band you fashion our band after, the Astronauts. When we played with them in 1963, or 64 the exact date I can't remember, except for a few instrumentals, they played more vocals than instrumentals. I vaguely recall it was a 90 minute set, maybe two hours. Too darn long to remember. The bands that are still active today could simply not play only instrumentals.

Last edited: Jan 30, 2017 19:38:14

Let us not forget that Dick doesn't double-pick like most of us do. I, for example, play straight 16ths and am quite accurate and practiced at it.

Dick, almost plays triplets at time. Whether or not this is intentional or not I have no idea. Dick didn't play guitar as well as a number of people here, and as a result his playing has a rawness to it that is very powerful and results in some pretty unique stuff such as that doublepicking almost triplet. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIU0RMV_II8

I don't meant that as a knock to Dick he is one of the most important musicians of the 20th century. He influenced a lot of important musicians and his music holds up until today. My point is more that us/we today are a little too practiced at our double-picking. Technology and time has worked together to have raised the bar so far with 'rock and roll' guitar. Remembering that Dick was a big time progenitor.

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