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SurfGuitar101 Forums » The Shallow End »

Permalink Gibson Guitars Made with Illegal Wood?

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JohnnyMosrite wrote:

That's the usual result when 'stuff' is banned - it
immediately goes underground and into the black market.
Because demand (that pesky little element of economics)
is still there - and will probably grow. It happened
with booze, happened with drugs, will continue to
happen with tone woods.
Human demand.. it is a bitch.. Am I wrong, Ivan?

Nope, John, it's what drives black markets - and black markets are a huge deal around the world. My personal belief (grounded in my knowledge of economics) is that prohibiting trade is pretty much always a bad idea, and inevitably results in serious unintended consequences, whether we're talking about drugs, prostitution, ebony or ivory. There are almost always better ways to handle these situations - but not ways that will make us feel as good about them. So the right gets its war on drugs and various other sins, the left gets its environmental resources trade bans. None of it works, but both sides feel really good about it....

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Steve-O-San wrote:

So, to clarify...for lazy people like me who don't want
to sift through all these articles:

Was it labor or illegal wood that got them raided?

Steve, all we 'know' seems to have come from Gibson so far - and there are valid concerns about how much they can be trusted, they're obviously making it look like they're the innocent victim (which they may be). Meanwhile, the govt ain't saying anything. But here's what the situation seems to be:

Raid #1 (2009) - it was about illegal wood from Madagascar
Raid #2 (last week) - it was about wood that's normally legal to import (Indian rosewood and ebony), but only if Indian workers have processed and finished it (according to Indian, not US, laws which India no longer enforces) - the govt seems to be claiming that US workers finished it and therefore it's actually illegal.

That's the case that Gibson is claiming. The truth may be different, maybe we'll even find out in due time. Gibson wants its day in court, but the govt doesn't seem to be forthcoming with criminal charges that would afford them that opportunity.

And there you go, you're pretty much caught up.

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Last edited: Sep 01, 2011 21:50:47

Was it labor or illegal wood that got them raided?

It was politics.

Be careful following the masses. Sometimes the "M" is silent...........................

BillyBlastOff wrote:

Was it labor or illegal wood that got them raided?

It was politics.

Maybe more specifically: Political Correctness
(Last and this century's growing disease, where instead of really doing what's right, you do just enough to make it seem so, and get to feel righteous about it, and most importantly publicize it to uphold your perceived 'virtue'.)
IMHO it's also a symptom of liberal economics (which I do favor above other systems)- basically, the freedom and incentive to lie (as long as it's professionally marketed, and you don't get caught red handed). Both Gibson AND the USA government dwell in this.

never mind...

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

Last edited: Sep 02, 2011 13:06:56

One imagine's Gibson, Martin, other high end makers do not move that many units each year, and by extension one doubt's the impact on 'endangered' wood and other products is significant. This seems to smack of the 'one size fits all' 'broad paintbrush' government syndrome.
The Gibson Guitar debacle has spread far and wide, check out this guy's rant "THiS MaCHiNe KiLLS FaSCiSTS...aND THaT ONe KiLLS JoBS"
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/machine-kills-fascists

http://tunefan.com
http://www.youtube.com/tunefan

Last edited: Sep 02, 2011 07:33:56

I'm out.

Last edited: Sep 02, 2011 09:29:58

Wow..I was going to chime in but after reading the entire thread I say have at it!

Politics suck.... Dead

METEOR IV on reverbnation

All - and especially Ivan..all with a sense of humor that is sorely needed these days..Pick your favorite "banned" good or service.
To wax poetically:

Whenever it is banned
But there is still big demand
Figure it will still be around
But from the market underground

The price will be high
You will sigh and you will cry
Free markets die
When dopey laws apply from on high

If the idea clicks
Lose these lawmaking dicks
With version 2.0 1776
And if it's not to be
Why in hell didn't we
Just pay the tax fee
On the blasted tea
See?

When it ends, it's going to end in tears.

PS it's ending soon.

Well it is really about falsification of documents associated with the imported timber .

Was it at Gibson's end or was it at the supplier's end ?
That is what the latest raid was about ?

Gibson has been actively promoting the use of alternative timber and are involved in groups to working top preserve the endangered species.

The leap to claim political influence is involved is the use of the internet to spread misinformation at its worst

Freshwater Surfin'

The Murray Basin
Australia

This is the best summary to date

Now I hope we are all on the same page about this ! Smile

Freshwater Surfin'

The Murray Basin
Australia

Windmill.. that's the gag.. the gov't doesn't care if the supplier falsified the paperwork or not. The suppliers are "small potatoes". Gibson is static - located in the U.S and has money. That makes for an easy target. The gov't is obviously hell bent to make it Gibson's problem.

Wouldn't it be intereting to see if some of the popular artists who endorse the Gibson brand put a "GIBSON-AID" concert together to raise money for Gibson's legal defense - kind of like "LIVE-AID" for the farmers? Oh, but wait, that would create a conflict with a lot of their socialist-save-the-whales,dolphins,rainforests(whoops that's jungle)
-except for the tone woods,ivory and bone on their private pricey guitars-beliefs. Can't do that..
Oh well.. Wink

J Mo'

Here's a brand new news story about this whole case, doing a seemingly good job summing up all the issues and developments, as well as adding a bit new info:

http://www.thetowntalk.com/article/20110904/NEWS/110904005

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Last edited: Sep 04, 2011 13:22:33

IvanP wrote:

Here's a brand new news story about this whole case,
doing a seemingly good job summing up all the issues
and developments, as well as adding a bit new info:

http://www.thetowntalk.com/article/20110904/NEWS/110904005

Armed federal agents?!! Why?? What's next? US marines?:)

Dalibor wrote:

Armed federal agents?!! Why?? What's next? US
marines?:)

That's one thing I was wondering. I don't know what kind of resistance they were expecting to encounter from a guitar manufacturer. Given the charge, it doesn't really seem appropriate. It also doesn't seem proper that they'd have seized property and not filed any formal charges. It doesn't make sense at all that if they raid the place and find contraband that they'd wait two years and then raid them again expecting to find more, as if Gibson wouldn't already be aware that they were in hot water and have been minding their P's and Q's since. Lots of questions still floating around.

The Mystery Men?
El Capitan and The Reluctant Sadists
SSS Agent #31

Thanks for the url of a that article, Ivan . I read the article.. my thoughts:
1. "rapidly dwindling rain forests" - baloney - kinda like the excrement of el toro of "global warming". But if so, try to convince Brazil, India and the Chinese of that. I'm not aware of any tonewoods coming from the jungles of the U.S.(on accounta-because there aint' none).
2. The Gibson raid “has created fear and uncertainty for all those involved in the manufacturing, distribution and retailing of instruments and increasingly, artists and owners of musical instruments,”
Yep- like I said before - wait for some eco-whacko rockstar to get his or her prized Martin,etc. confiscated by some federal gumshoe agent because he or she can't "prove" where the ebony bridge or rosewood fingerboard came from. Think twice, folks, before that '57 Strat or D'Angelico goes abroad.
3. If you won’t use ebony and someone else will, they won’t buy your stuff,” he said. “A company like Gibson, which is a great brand, has to use things that sell, and ebony and rosewood are what sells.”
This also supports my assertion of what small under the radar luthiers are doing. Yeah, I could plop $3,000-$5,000 for a top of the line Gibson or get a custom built handmade (save a few power tools) guitar made with the "forbidden" (for no goddamn good reason) wood. And since the small luthier doesn't have the overhead of a Gibson, the construction cost would still be (at least for now) lower.

The soft tyranny/police state is walks among us, gang.
J' Mo

Richard,
To answer your question;
Many - and it's working toward all- federal agencies have an enforcement division. That means armed agents. Recall the Department of Education raid a few months back that broke into the home of an ex-husband or boyfriend of a student loan deadbeat. They cuffed him in front of his children and ransacked his home.
A question to ponder: What is the Department of Education doing with armed agents??
Is it me or is the Constitution of the U.S. going to hell in a hen basket with this clown in the White House?

J Mo'

This story keeps getting bigger and bigger. I was listening to Coast to Coast last night with George Nory the host of the show, and his guest was Mike Adams from Texas. They were talking about the Gov't shutdown of Gibson and how they want them to outsource the jobs to Madagascar. Amazing stuff. Coast to Coast has 26 million listeners every night.

Craig the Keg

Hodad makin' the scene with a six pack.

Hodad makin' the scene with a six pack.

Last edited: Sep 05, 2011 12:57:15

Coast to Coast? The show where they talk about about UFOs, Lizard People, and Time Travel? I'd think that the Gibson Guitar Corporation seems like small potatoes for someone like The Illuminati but I guess that's why they run the world and I don't!

Hot Summer Comes Again!
Let's Go Beach! Let's Go Beach!

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