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SurfGuitar101 Forums » The Shallow End »

Permalink Gibson Guitars Made with Illegal Wood?

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IvanP wrote:

The liberal perspective on this entire case:

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/business/2011/09/gibson-ceo-embraces-his-nra-moment/41996/

I'm a little surpised by your use of this word. http://mises.org/liberal.asp

Dave, just going with the conventional usage here, this is not the place to discuss these sorts of semantics. (I did almost put 'left-wing' instead of liberal, but that almost seemed pejorative, and I didn't want to make it seem like that - just trying to be balanced about it.)

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Matt, you're entitled to your opinion, though as an economist I will say that your idea of how a market economy works is completely off and has pretty much nothing to do with reality. But this is not the place to discuss these issues. I will respond to one thing:

Matt22 wrote:

Sure, we'll get the Wall
Street Journal's (Rupert Murdoch owned) incredibly
pro-business slant on things to fire us up

I posted a WSJ journalistic report, not an op-ed piece. You may object to their opinion page, but I've never heard anyone accuse WSJ of having biased reporting outside of their opinion section. In fact, it is widely regarded as one of the best newspapers out there. Do you see any bias in the piece that I posted? I believe it was a straight reporting job.

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

BTW, I also posted stories from NPR and the Atlantic.

But looking for stories of WSJ bias, I came across something very interesting. From UCLA's website (from 2005):

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx

Quoting:

While the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal is conservative, the newspaper's news pages are liberal, even more liberal than The New York Times. The Drudge Report may have a right-wing reputation, but it leans left. Coverage by public television and radio is conservative compared to the rest of the mainstream media. Meanwhile, almost all major media outlets tilt to the left. These are just a few of the surprising findings from a UCLA-led study, which is believed to be the first successful attempt at objectively quantifying bias in a range of media outlets and ranking them accordingly.

Of the 20 major media outlets studied, 18 scored left of center, with CBS' "Evening News," The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times ranking second, third and fourth most liberal behind the news pages of The Wall Street Journal.

An additional feature of the study shows how each outlet compares in political orientation with actual lawmakers. The news pages of The Wall Street Journal scored a little to the left of the average American Democrat, as determined by the average ADA score of all Democrats in Congress (85 versus 84).

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Last edited: Sep 01, 2011 13:50:11

Matt22 wrote:

OK, I'm going to chime in here because I see some of
the discussion getting pretty ridiculous. I may be in
the minority, judging by the drum beating and
horn-blowing posts here as well as the politically
motivated "sources" being served as evidence. However,
due to the incredibly loose (and almost non-existent)
regulations on big businesses in the United States,
businesses have pretty much had free reign to do
whatever they please.

And, no offense, but you just added to the ridiculousness. A business that would be non-existent without the wood has more interest in its survival than the bureaucrats in Washington. Gibson and every other company is out to make a profit. Giving a company the scarlet letter of "Big Business" doesn't make their motives any different or better than some company making solar panels.

Shawn Martin
http://www.drummerman.net
http://www.youtube.com/GKacedrummerman
http://www.facebook.com/drumuitar

It's good to see my preferred news outlet, Jim Lehrer's New hour is the most centrist, at least according to the UCLA study. My other favorite source is the conservative Public Radio yet I lean to the left, a little. I'm sure not gonna start following Drudge.

Just like so many do with the Bible, I can find pretty much anything on the Internet that already echoes as well as solidifies my beliefs. How else did people justify slavery and then Jim Crow back in the "old days?" That's all because of the personalization of the Internet these days.

In reality, the media are only as liberal as their conservative backers.

And furthermore, mass media really does breed ignorance.

On the otherhand, I read a variety of viewpoints, both liberal and conservative, and I like to make up my own mind rather than to have somebody else form my opinion for me. Moreover, there is no such thing as something that is "fair and balanced" and especially anything from News Corporation.

My questions to you would be; are you an economist or are you really saying you're a capitalist? Is Adam Smith your Jesus? I would argue that this is the meaning of "economist," especially here in the United States, where the MBA is the ruling philosophy of the day.

Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html

Drudge doesn't write his own articles. It's just a mixture of headlines that are linked to newspapers, TV news sites, blogs, etc.

Shawn Martin
http://www.drummerman.net
http://www.youtube.com/GKacedrummerman
http://www.facebook.com/drumuitar

Matt22 wrote:

My questions to you would be; are you an economist or
are you really saying you're a capitalist? Is Adam
Smith your Jesus?

Did Adam Smith die for my sins? No. Was he inerrant? No. So, I'd say he most definitely isn't my Jesus. Do I admire him? Yes, quite a lot. All modern economists, even highly left-leaning ones, owe a huge amount to Smith, since he was unquestionably the founder of modern economics. (And contrary to the perceptions of most laypersons, he was far from a friend of big businesses or even business in general. He was primarily in favor of free competition (something that busineses often try to curtail or even block through the aid of govt) which he showed would serve the interests of the average people more effectively than any other system and is the best way to make a society wealthy.

Am I capitalist? The definition of a capitalist is an owner of capital. I own some capital, in the form of my humble 401k fund, but that's pretty much the extent of it, so stricly speaking, yes, I am a capitalist, but would Karl Marx consider me one? No. Do I favor free markets over other economic systems? Yes, I do.

I hope that clarifies things a bit. Thank you for asking.

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Ivan, I'm not a Christian, and my use of Jesus was metaphorical.

However, you did prove my point as well as answer my question. Thanks.

Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html

Matt22 wrote:

However, you did prove my point as well as answer my
question. Thanks.

Prove what point? It's nice to be able to put people into a neat little box and then not have to consider what they have to say, isn't it?

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

IvanP wrote:

Prove what point? It's nice to be able to put people
into a neat little box and then not have to consider
what they have to say, isn't it?

Ivan, don't put words into my mouth. My point was a personal one for me to understand where you're coming from. No need to get testy and confrontational as I have done nothing to elicit such feelings from you. Your perspective is taken into account by me but I also like to know your motivation. So, if you think that puts you into a little box, that's your doing, not mine.

Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html

Matt, I simply reacted to ýou saying "Thank you for proving my point." I'm not sure how I was supposed to interpret that other than how I did.

Anyway, how does 'knowing where I'm coming from' change any of my arguments or what I've said so far?

I don't mean to come off testy or confrotational (well, maybe slightly the latter). I'm just puzzled.

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Anyway, sorry folks, this is of no interest to anybody else. Please forgive me. Sorry I will now cease.

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

IvanP wrote:

Matt, I simply reacted to ýou saying "Thank you for
proving my point." I'm not sure how I was supposed to
interpret that other than how I did.

Anyway, how does 'knowing where I'm coming from' change
any of my arguments or what I've said so far?

I don't mean to come off testy or confrotational (well,
maybe slightly the latter). I'm just puzzled.

No problem, Ivan. I just like to know people's motivation for their beliefs. Knowing that helps me to analyze why you feel the way you do and take that into account. It helps me to understand different perspectives.

Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html

Here's an interesting new story, with more legal details about the whole case.

http://www.memphisdailynews.com/news/2011/sep/2/gibson-plants-up-and-running-following-raid/

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

CHRIS DANIEL:  Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?

HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ:  They actually wrote that in a pleading.

CHRIS DANIEL:  Excuse me?

HENRY JUSKIEWICZ:   They actually wrote that it a pleading.

CHRIS DANIEL:  That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor?

HENRY JUSKIEWICZ:  Yes

Shawn Martin
http://www.drummerman.net
http://www.youtube.com/GKacedrummerman
http://www.facebook.com/drumuitar

All.. My take on this is that Gibson is in Obama's crosshairs perhaps because they operate in a right to work state. Fender and others of the California union state ilk don't seem to have this problem. They buy wood from some supplier, don't they?
Guys and gals - it's obvious to any fool that this government of ours is way out of control. You might think they have better things to do than legislate light bulbs, toilet tank capacity, and what kind of wood and from where goes into guitars. Think the Chinese worry about that idiocy? They rape the jungle (I always hated the PC "rainforest" nonsense) islands around their country and make soem great guitars in the process. I'm waiting for the Neil Youngs, Stings, Sprinsteens, Melloncamps and other left wing looneys to have a vintage instrument confiscated (that used to be unconstitutional) by some over zealous customs agent. Watch out for what you wish for.. you might get it

And a side bar - The CITES accord from the early 1990s is another dumb joke. Brazilian rosewood is suppose to be a big "no-no" and is only available from "pre(CITES)-existing supplies" (winky,winky)
Well.. 20+ years since, it must have been one hell of a load of "pre-existing" supply. For a price (and brother, it's high), I know of a few independent luthiers who will furnish an instrument with close grain brazilian fretboards. It's most likely black market stuff but who gives a rat's ass. The tree has been cut and it's very dead.. use it's remains. We call it "RECYCLING", don't we. BTW same goes for the ivory taken from the dead elephant.
That's the usual result when 'stuff' is banned - it immediately goes underground and into the black market. Because demand (that pesky little element of economics) is still there - and will probably grow. It happened with booze, happened with drugs, will continue to happen with tone woods.
Human demand.. it is a bitch.. Am I wrong, Ivan?

Wow! Great thread. This whole situation kind of reminds me of Kafka's "The Trial."

So, to clarify...for lazy people like me who don't want to sift through all these articles:

Was it labor or illegal wood that got them raided?

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