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I just got back from the ventures show and was blown away. I went
and saw them a couple years back and there wasn't nearly the volume
of people that were there tonight and the venue was at least 3 times
the size. I didn't know beforehand but it was put on by the local
oldies station. So needless to say being 23 (in two days) I stuck
out quite a bit, which many people asked me about. All in all it
seemed more like a Jimmy Buffet concert but without the drunken
singing. Hawaiian shirts aplenty, they even brought in sand and
balloon palm trees. Two large screens played black and white footage
from their early years and their influence on japan.
The highlights were probably of the several guest appearances from
people like Joe Fischer from Heart, the Wailers, and the drummer of
Yes (who along with Leon played an amazing dual drum solo). The
whole point was primarily to get signatures for their nomination into
the rock and roll hall of fame. Which is surprising that they haven't
yet.
I have never once heard a Ventures song on 97.3 who was sponsoring the
concert.
I think the Ventures are trying to hard to get into the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. It isn't like it will make their career any more
illustrious. They are the freaking Ventures. They have influenced
millions of people.
Besides there are better groups than the Ventures but I guess the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame doesn't exactly go on most deserving but most
popular.
Eric was the concert a few years ago at the Skychurch with Los
Straitjackets? The drummer in our band was at that one. His Dad's
friend put that concert on.
--- In , "Eric Hutchinson"
<surfinseattle@h...> wrote:
>
> The
> whole point was primarily to get signatures for their nomination into
> the rock and roll hall of fame. Which is surprising that they haven't
> yet.
Jacob, you are welcome to your opinions. To those of us who consider ourselves
real fans of The Ventures, there has never been a question that they are
absolutely one of the dominant rock acts of all time.
If measured on record sales, they were 6th in U.S. album sales, during the
1960's, meaning that they appealed to a far larger and more devoted audience
than a large number of existing H.O.F. inductees ever did!
If measured on "influence", two generations of rock guitarists, some of them
legends themselves, cite The Ventures as having been an early motivating, and
instructional force in their lives.
If measured based upon "hits", they charted in the Top 40 at least three times,
with Walk Don't Run (1960) #2 Nationwide; Walk Don't Run '64, and Hawaii Five-O
(1969).
The use of the word "better" in comparing other bands, is a matter of opinion.
Better how? In muscianship, song-writing, longevity of career, number of active
fans?
There's also a question of due-recognition and of the Hall of Fame being fair
and accurate in such recognition. Many people have forgotten the name of the
band, (The Chantays) who first recorded the song "Pipeline", but they got their
induction into the R&R Hall of Fame, years ago, and were cited as having written
and recorded one of the most influential Instrumental tunes of all time.
Likewise the Surfaris, with "Wipe-Out".
Now, Jacob, not to take away one iota of recognition from The Chantays or The
Surfaris, if you were The Ventures, don't you think you would wonder why a song
that pre-dated Wipe Out, and Pipeline, but is considered by most Rock historians
to have been the most influential, essential hits of the era - Walk Don't Run,
has failed so far, to get The Ventures, (who taught the world to play guitar)
into the H.O.F.?
A few years ago, Guitar Player Magazine listed the most essential songs and
albums of all time, (from a guitarist's perspective). The Ventures were on the
Top 20 list, NOT The Chantays, NOT The Surfaris. Both the other bands had
active careers that lasted but a few years. (Yes, I know that both bands have
resurrected themselves since the 1990's, and one can see them perform from time
to time). The Ventures weathered the onslaught of the British Invasion,
survived the 1960's, still responsible for Top 100 album sales 10 years after
Walk Don't Run.
In fact, as late as 1972, they were the world's #1 Instrumental Pop/Rock Band
according to the Playboy Pop and Jazz Poll!
Most Ventures fans, including me, view the H.O.F.'s continued ingoring of The
Ventures to be a total travesty, an indication of their unfitness to be an
arbiter of what was or was not great, given this patent lack of objectivity on
their part, in steadfastly refusing to admit The Ventures.
My opinion, based on dozens and dozens of other acts that have been admitted to
the H.O.F.
is that by any objective standard, based on already-admitted bands, The Ventures
absence represents a glaring, scandalous omission on the part of those who run
the H.O.F.
You're welcome to your opinions, Jacob, but you won't find much support for them
on this discussion group. Certainly none from me.
All surf musicians, and Surf Music fans owe a tremendoous debt to The Ventures,
and I for one, will continue to energetically and enthusiastically support their
way-overdue induction, at long last, into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.
One last thing, Jacob. You say the guys are trying too hard. Do you have an
ounce of empathy or compassion in your soul? At the current age, (and likely
state of health), just how many years do you think they can afford to waste,
waitiing around for those &%#@#'s at the HOF?
Bruce D
jacobdobner <> wrote:
I have never once heard a Ventures song on 97.3 who was sponsoring the
concert.
I think the Ventures are trying to hard to get into the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. It isn't like it will make their career any more
illustrious. They are the freaking Ventures. They have influenced
millions of people.
Besides there are better groups than the Ventures but I guess the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame doesn't exactly go on most deserving but most
popular.
Eric was the concert a few years ago at the Skychurch with Los
Straitjackets? The drummer in our band was at that one. His Dad's
friend put that concert on.
--- In , "Eric Hutchinson"
<surfinseattle@h...> wrote:
>
> The
> whole point was primarily to get signatures for their nomination into
> the rock and roll hall of fame. Which is surprising that they haven't
> yet.
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's a good point, Jacob,
Whether the Ventures get into the RRHOF or not, they will always be the freaking
Ventures and have been a major influence on millions. There are groups that are
better at different things, such as groups that are more energitic or groups
that have a better stage show but as a package, the Ventures were pretty
awesome. They wrote more great instros than any group I can think of. Check out
the "Swingin' Creepers" tribute for a start.
I think the Ventures are going about it wrong with the petition thing. Duane
Eddy got into the RRHOF because John Fogerty wanted him there and influenced the
other RRHOF voters. The Ventures need another high profile John Fogerty type on
their side.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: jacobdobner
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 12:26 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Ventures
I have never once heard a Ventures song on 97.3 who was sponsoring the
concert.
I think the Ventures are trying to hard to get into the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. It isn't like it will make their career any more
illustrious. They are the freaking Ventures. They have influenced
millions of people.
Besides there are better groups than the Ventures but I guess the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame doesn't exactly go on most deserving but most
popular.
Eric was the concert a few years ago at the Skychurch with Los
Straitjackets? The drummer in our band was at that one. His Dad's
friend put that concert on.
--- In , "Eric Hutchinson"
<surfinseattle@h...> wrote:
>
> The
> whole point was primarily to get signatures for their nomination into
> the rock and roll hall of fame. Which is surprising that they haven't
> yet.
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Ventures are paying for those early 70s years when Nokie left.
Yeesh! :)
Bill
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> That's a good point, Jacob,
> Whether the Ventures get into the RRHOF or not, they will always
be the freaking Ventures and have been a major influence on
millions. There are groups that are better at different things, such
as groups that are more energitic or groups that have a better stage
show but as a package, the Ventures were pretty awesome. They wrote
more great instros than any group I can think of. Check out
the "Swingin' Creepers" tribute for a start.
>
> I think the Ventures are going about it wrong with the petition
thing. Duane Eddy got into the RRHOF because John Fogerty wanted him
there and influenced the other RRHOF voters. The Ventures need
another high profile John Fogerty type on their side.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jacobdobner
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 12:26 AM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Ventures
>
>
>
> I have never once heard a Ventures song on 97.3 who was
sponsoring the
> concert.
>
> I think the Ventures are trying to hard to get into the Rock and
Roll
> Hall of Fame. It isn't like it will make their career any more
> illustrious. They are the freaking Ventures. They have influenced
> millions of people.
>
> Besides there are better groups than the Ventures but I guess
the Rock
> and Roll Hall of Fame doesn't exactly go on most deserving but
most
> popular.
>
> Eric was the concert a few years ago at the Skychurch with Los
> Straitjackets? The drummer in our band was at that one. His Dad's
> friend put that concert on.
>
> --- In , "Eric Hutchinson"
> <surfinseattle@h...> wrote:
> >
> > The
> > whole point was primarily to get signatures for their
nomination into
> > the rock and roll hall of fame. Which is surprising that they
haven't
> > yet.
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame doesn't matter. Being in the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame will not make these guys any more immortal. And are
you aware of some of the bands in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? It
is like getting a Ventures video onto the MTV TRL Hall of Fame.
Chantays and Surfaris shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. But it is the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the only reason they are in is because
of it being a formality. Wipe Out is a crappy song. But more
recognizable than Walk Don't Run.
I use better in the sense of more energy, better songwriting(melody
and dynamics), and albums as a whole.
>
> You're welcome to your opinions, Jacob, but you won't find much
support for them on this discussion group. Certainly none from me.
>
That was very subtle at being terribly angry at me. Perhaps you should
have worded it like "I respect your opinions but I must stand
steadfast in my opinion that the Ventures must, beyond a shadow of
doubt, be admitted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame". Or you could
just do what you did.
>
> One last thing, Jacob. You say the guys are trying too hard. Do
you have an ounce of empathy or compassion in your soul? At the
current age, (and likely state of health), just how many years do you
think they can afford to waste, waitiing around for those &%#@#'s at
the HOF?
>
They shouldn't be wasting their last years or decade or two working on
getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Do they want to be right
next to Prince? They need to be content with their many millions of
records sold and the place they have in the fans hearts. I wonder how
much stress is on them in their pursuit to get into the HOF? Instead
of going out and collecting signitures spend some time with the wife,
kis, or grandchildren.
They should take some comfort in the fact that they still have so many
people coming out to their shows that support them.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Jacob, you are welcome to your opinions. To those of us who
consider ourselves real fans of The Ventures, there has never been a
question that they are absolutely one of the dominant rock acts of all
time.
>
> If measured on record sales, they were 6th in U.S. album sales,
during the 1960's, meaning that they appealed to a far larger and more
devoted audience than a large number of existing H.O.F. inductees ever
did!
>
> If measured on "influence", two generations of rock guitarists, some
of them legends themselves, cite The Ventures as having been an early
motivating, and instructional force in their lives.
>
> If measured based upon "hits", they charted in the Top 40 at least
three times, with Walk Don't Run (1960) #2 Nationwide; Walk Don't Run
'64, and Hawaii Five-O (1969).
>
> The use of the word "better" in comparing other bands, is a matter
of opinion. Better how? In muscianship, song-writing, longevity of
career, number of active fans?
>
> There's also a question of due-recognition and of the Hall of Fame
being fair and accurate in such recognition. Many people have
forgotten the name of the band, (The Chantays) who first recorded the
song "Pipeline", but they got their induction into the R&R Hall of
Fame, years ago, and were cited as having written and recorded one of
the most influential Instrumental tunes of all time. Likewise the
Surfaris, with "Wipe-Out".
>
> Now, Jacob, not to take away one iota of recognition from The
Chantays or The Surfaris, if you were The Ventures, don't you think
you would wonder why a song that pre-dated Wipe Out, and Pipeline, but
is considered by most Rock historians to have been the most
influential, essential hits of the era - Walk Don't Run, has failed so
far, to get The Ventures, (who taught the world to play guitar) into
the H.O.F.?
>
> A few years ago, Guitar Player Magazine listed the most essential
songs and albums of all time, (from a guitarist's perspective). The
Ventures were on the Top 20 list, NOT The Chantays, NOT The Surfaris.
Both the other bands had active careers that lasted but a few years.
(Yes, I know that both bands have resurrected themselves since the
1990's, and one can see them perform from time to time). The Ventures
weathered the onslaught of the British Invasion, survived the 1960's,
still responsible for Top 100 album sales 10 years after Walk Don't Run.
>
> In fact, as late as 1972, they were the world's #1 Instrumental
Pop/Rock Band according to the Playboy Pop and Jazz Poll!
>
> Most Ventures fans, including me, view the H.O.F.'s continued
ingoring of The Ventures to be a total travesty, an indication of
their unfitness to be an arbiter of what was or was not great, given
this patent lack of objectivity on their part, in steadfastly refusing
to admit The Ventures.
>
> My opinion, based on dozens and dozens of other acts that have been
admitted to the H.O.F.
> is that by any objective standard, based on already-admitted bands,
The Ventures absence represents a glaring, scandalous omission on the
part of those who run the H.O.F.
>
> You're welcome to your opinions, Jacob, but you won't find much
support for them on this discussion group. Certainly none from me.
>
> AllFame. surf musicians, and Surf Music fans owe a tremendoous debt
to The Ventures, and I for one, will continue to energetically and
enthusiastically support their way-overdue induction, at long last,
into the Rock & Roll Hall of
>
> One last thing, Jacob. You say the guys are trying too hard. Do
you have an ounce of empathy or compassion in your soul? At the
current age, (and likely state of health), just how many years do you
think they can afford to waste, waitiing around for those &%#@#'s at
the HOF?
>
> Bruce D
>
Enither the Chantays or The Surfaris have been inducted into the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame. Good call. Both of those bands along with the
Ventures are under 500 most important songs of all-time. But none of
them are inducted.
I prefer the Shadows of the Ventures any day. I think the Shadows
should get in first. The Shadows wrote many more songs themselves. The
Ventures sure did a lot of covers. Granted they wrote some great ones
like Surf Rider. And whenever I look at a ventures albums I see a lot
of Shadows covers.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
>
> There's also a question of due-recognition and of the Hall of Fame
being fair and accurate in such recognition. Many people have
forgotten the name of the band, (The Chantays) who first recorded the
song "Pipeline", but they got their induction into the R&R Hall of
Fame, years ago, and were cited as having written and recorded one of
the most influential Instrumental tunes of all time. Likewise the
Surfaris, with "Wipe-Out".
>
That should read I prefer the Shadows over the Ventures. And to
clarify the third sentence it should be: The Shadows wrote many more
of their more recognizable songs themselves. Hawaii Five-O, Telstar,
Apache, Sleepwalk.
--- In , "jacobdobner" <jacobdobner@y...>
wrote:
> I prefer the Shadows of the Ventures any day. I think the Shadows
> should get in first. The Shadows wrote many more songs themselves. The
> Ventures sure did a lot of covers. Granted they wrote some great ones
> like Surf Rider. And whenever I look at a ventures albums I see a lot
> of Shadows covers.
>
Hi Jacob,
We happen to disagree on a few points regarding The Ventures vis-a-vis the HOF.
It's both unfortunate, and inaccurate on your part to impute anger in my reply!
Somehow, when I tell someone they're welcome to their opinion, that and that
alone should be sufficient to communicate that I respect their right to differ,
even if I do not happen to accept their opinion as valid.
I think semantics aside, we can agree however that based on prior inductions, if
The Ventures honestly do (as they've made patently obvious) want to be inducted,
there is abundant factual and subjective support to justify the nominating
committee to do just that.
Jan Wenner, who was "Rolling Stone" magazine, appears to have a lopsided amount
of influence on the acts chosen, and someone in an earlier posting, pointed out
there was some prejudice evident against The Ventures, (though why not against
The Surfaris and The Chantays, also?)
The boys have earned the recognition; they've paid the dues of several dozen
bands! I say further, that since this is something important to them, their
loyal fan base should participate in whatever way, signing petitions, persuading
others to do so, since this may be the best opportunity yet, to turn the
decision more positive, since the boys have gotten full into it, with the
support of Washington State government leaders, yet.
You make it sound as though you have an intimate moment-by-moment view into
their private lives, when you imply that this recent campaign is somehow
detracting from their home lives, and time with their families. Is this a fact
for which you have unassailable evidence, or is this just an assumption you've
made at great remove from the boys themselves?
The fact is, that at every stage of their career, Bob, Don, Nokie, and Mel, (now
Leon), have lived remarkably balanced lives, spending as much time as possible
at home, with family and loved ones close by. These guys are and have been
about as conventional in that regard, as possible, given the demands of their
chosen career.
One last thing, you put forth a notion that I've heard before from others, that
The Ventures songwriting, melodies, dynamics, etc, etc, yada yada yada, don't
bear up under comparison with other bands. I agree that the frenetic deadlines
their Record Company kept them under, forced them to create 24 - 30 brand-new
originals in a year's time, while on tour most of the time! Not easy to
maintain the highest standards on a consistent basis, under that kind of
pressure! Accepted as a given.
Still, they wrote several Gems that have become Instro classics in their own
right:
Journey To The Stars, (which stands up to ANY song of ANY era, as simply
outstanding IMHO),
Driving Guitars Spudnik/Surf Rider
Yellow Jacket The 2000 Pound Bee (Pts 1 &
2)
Pedal Pusher Gandy Dancer
Not to mention, I feel their unique, and unprecedented (at the time) arrangement
of Walk, Don't Run, taking it from a finger-picked, country-jazz number, and
magically transforming it into a Rock & Roll Guitar Anthem, certainly offers
objective proof of formidable vision, creativity and aesthetic sensibility
coming together in an immortal performance.
The Ventures' 1960 recording of this song is the equivalent of The Crown Jewels.
Jacob, you are most welcome to your opinions. However, there are many, myself
included, who feel the gems they created, more than compensate for other songs
that were mainly album-filler. Further, they created more gems than the vast
majority of other bands out there, which is one of the reasons their career has
spanned 45 years and still-counting, in itself yet another reason they oughta
be in the R&R HOF.
It's their decision to make, whether or not to pursue it. If they want it, they
have my unconditional support.
Peace,
Bruce D
jacobdobner <> wrote:
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame doesn't matter. Being in the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame will not make these guys any more immortal. And are
you aware of some of the bands in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? It
is like getting a Ventures video onto the MTV TRL Hall of Fame.
Chantays and Surfaris shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. But it is the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the only reason they are in is because
of it being a formality. Wipe Out is a crappy song. But more
recognizable than Walk Don't Run.
I use better in the sense of more energy, better songwriting(melody
and dynamics), and albums as a whole.
>
> You're welcome to your opinions, Jacob, but you won't find much
support for them on this discussion group. Certainly none from me.
>
That was very subtle at being terribly angry at me. Perhaps you should
have worded it like "I respect your opinions but I must stand
steadfast in my opinion that the Ventures must, beyond a shadow of
doubt, be admitted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame". Or you could
just do what you did.
>
> One last thing, Jacob. You say the guys are trying too hard. Do
you have an ounce of empathy or compassion in your soul? At the
current age, (and likely state of health), just how many years do you
think they can afford to waste, waitiing around for those &%#@#'s at
the HOF?
>
They shouldn't be wasting their last years or decade or two working on
getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Do they want to be right
next to Prince? They need to be content with their many millions of
records sold and the place they have in the fans hearts. I wonder how
much stress is on them in their pursuit to get into the HOF? Instead
of going out and collecting signitures spend some time with the wife,
kis, or grandchildren.
They should take some comfort in the fact that they still have so many
people coming out to their shows that support them.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Jacob, you are welcome to your opinions. To those of us who
consider ourselves real fans of The Ventures, there has never been a
question that they are absolutely one of the dominant rock acts of all
time.
>
> If measured on record sales, they were 6th in U.S. album sales,
during the 1960's, meaning that they appealed to a far larger and more
devoted audience than a large number of existing H.O.F. inductees ever
did!
>
> If measured on "influence", two generations of rock guitarists, some
of them legends themselves, cite The Ventures as having been an early
motivating, and instructional force in their lives.
>
> If measured based upon "hits", they charted in the Top 40 at least
three times, with Walk Don't Run (1960) #2 Nationwide; Walk Don't Run
'64, and Hawaii Five-O (1969).
>
> The use of the word "better" in comparing other bands, is a matter
of opinion. Better how? In muscianship, song-writing, longevity of
career, number of active fans?
>
> There's also a question of due-recognition and of the Hall of Fame
being fair and accurate in such recognition. Many people have
forgotten the name of the band, (The Chantays) who first recorded the
song "Pipeline", but they got their induction into the R&R Hall of
Fame, years ago, and were cited as having written and recorded one of
the most influential Instrumental tunes of all time. Likewise the
Surfaris, with "Wipe-Out".
>
> Now, Jacob, not to take away one iota of recognition from The
Chantays or The Surfaris, if you were The Ventures, don't you think
you would wonder why a song that pre-dated Wipe Out, and Pipeline, but
is considered by most Rock historians to have been the most
influential, essential hits of the era - Walk Don't Run, has failed so
far, to get The Ventures, (who taught the world to play guitar) into
the H.O.F.?
>
> A few years ago, Guitar Player Magazine listed the most essential
songs and albums of all time, (from a guitarist's perspective). The
Ventures were on the Top 20 list, NOT The Chantays, NOT The Surfaris.
Both the other bands had active careers that lasted but a few years.
(Yes, I know that both bands have resurrected themselves since the
1990's, and one can see them perform from time to time). The Ventures
weathered the onslaught of the British Invasion, survived the 1960's,
still responsible for Top 100 album sales 10 years after Walk Don't Run.
>
> In fact, as late as 1972, they were the world's #1 Instrumental
Pop/Rock Band according to the Playboy Pop and Jazz Poll!
>
> Most Ventures fans, including me, view the H.O.F.'s continued
ingoring of The Ventures to be a total travesty, an indication of
their unfitness to be an arbiter of what was or was not great, given
this patent lack of objectivity on their part, in steadfastly refusing
to admit The Ventures.
>
> My opinion, based on dozens and dozens of other acts that have been
admitted to the H.O.F.
> is that by any objective standard, based on already-admitted bands,
The Ventures absence represents a glaring, scandalous omission on the
part of those who run the H.O.F.
>
> You're welcome to your opinions, Jacob, but you won't find much
support for them on this discussion group. Certainly none from me.
>
> AllFame. surf musicians, and Surf Music fans owe a tremendoous debt
to The Ventures, and I for one, will continue to energetically and
enthusiastically support their way-overdue induction, at long last,
into the Rock & Roll Hall of
>
> One last thing, Jacob. You say the guys are trying too hard. Do
you have an ounce of empathy or compassion in your soul? At the
current age, (and likely state of health), just how many years do you
think they can afford to waste, waitiing around for those &%#@#'s at
the HOF?
>
> Bruce D
>
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Compare and Contrast the Ventures and the Shadows:
The Shadows wrote many of their own recognizable tunes. The Ventures did not
write as many of the tunes for which they are known.
In terms of quantity, the Ventures wrote more originals especially when we
include the excellent tunes the Ventures wrote for the Japanese market. Then of
course quantity isn't quality.
The Ventures best original instro is "Journey to the Stars", the Shadows don't
have anything quite that good among their originals. "Flingal Bunt" is good but
it is a rip off of "One Mint Julip".
The Shadows had a very nice and polite tone, which is not to say they didn't
rock, but The Ventures rocked harder with a more raw and less-refined sound
especially during their Mosrite years.
The Ventures made the U.S. charts many times. Like David Hasselhoff, The Shadows
were big in Europe but couldn't sell significant numbers in the U.S., (where it
really matters, lets face it!)
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: jacobdobner
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Ventures
Enither the Chantays or The Surfaris have been inducted into the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame. Good call. Both of those bands along with the
Ventures are under 500 most important songs of all-time. But none of
them are inducted.
I prefer the Shadows of the Ventures any day. I think the Shadows
should get in first. The Shadows wrote many more songs themselves. The
Ventures sure did a lot of covers. Granted they wrote some great ones
like Surf Rider. And whenever I look at a ventures albums I see a lot
of Shadows covers.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
>
> There's also a question of due-recognition and of the Hall of Fame
being fair and accurate in such recognition. Many people have
forgotten the name of the band, (The Chantays) who first recorded the
song "Pipeline", but they got their induction into the R&R Hall of
Fame, years ago, and were cited as having written and recorded one of
the most influential Instrumental tunes of all time. Likewise the
Surfaris, with "Wipe-Out".
>
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Jacob:
Just goes to show that it pays to check the source, rather than listen to what
other bands' supporters have to say! On one of the websites, the following is
quoted verbatim from the book, "The Chantays".
"In 1994 the release of THE CHANTAYS Next Set CD rekindled the publics interest
and again gained THE CHANTAYS recognition in the music industry. The CHANTAYS
and Pipeline are featured in two areas of The Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame and
Museum in Cleveland, Ohio. In 1996 The Chantays gained further recognition for
their accomplishments by being inducted into the Hollywood Rock Walk"
Now, (I'll be damned if I can find the site), but another blurb on a different
site, had it that both The Chantays and The Surfaris were actual inductees. I
shoulda gone direct to the HOF website and confirmed this info, but I didn't
imagine the claim would be publicly made, and false at the same time, Mea Maxima
Culpa.
The other points I raised still stand, and I stand by them.
Respectfully,
Bruce D
jacobdobner <> wrote:
Enither the Chantays or The Surfaris have been inducted into the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame. Good call. Both of those bands along with the
Ventures are under 500 most important songs of all-time. But none of
them are inducted.
I prefer the Shadows of the Ventures any day. I think the Shadows
should get in first. The Shadows wrote many more songs themselves. The
Ventures sure did a lot of covers. Granted they wrote some great ones
like Surf Rider. And whenever I look at a ventures albums I see a lot
of Shadows covers.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
>
> There's also a question of due-recognition and of the Hall of Fame
being fair and accurate in such recognition. Many people have
forgotten the name of the band, (The Chantays) who first recorded the
song "Pipeline", but they got their induction into the R&R Hall of
Fame, years ago, and were cited as having written and recorded one of
the most influential Instrumental tunes of all time. Likewise the
Surfaris, with "Wipe-Out".
>
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Journey to the Stars is the absolute best. One of the best intstros
ever written. I have never heard the Ventures version, to my
knowledge, which is disappointing. I have heard the Man or Astro-Man?,
Nebulas, and Space Cossacks version of it.
And Rolling Stone is the anti-christ of the music biz magazines.
Jan Wenner! That's her name, what an ignorant fill in the blank.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Jacob,
>
> We happen to disagree on a few points regarding The Ventures vis-a-
vis the HOF. It's both unfortunate, and inaccurate on your part to
impute anger in my reply! Somehow, when I tell someone they're
welcome to their opinion, that and that alone should be sufficient
to communicate that I respect their right to differ, even if I do
not happen to accept their opinion as valid.
>
> I think semantics aside, we can agree however that based on prior
inductions, if The Ventures honestly do (as they've made patently
obvious) want to be inducted, there is abundant factual and
subjective support to justify the nominating committee to do just
that.
>
> Jan Wenner, who was "Rolling Stone" magazine, appears to have a
lopsided amount of influence on the acts chosen, and someone in an
earlier posting, pointed out there was some prejudice evident
against The Ventures, (though why not against The Surfaris and The
Chantays, also?)
>
> The boys have earned the recognition; they've paid the dues of
several dozen bands! I say further, that since this is something
important to them, their loyal fan base should participate in
whatever way, signing petitions, persuading others to do so, since
this may be the best opportunity yet, to turn the decision more
positive, since the boys have gotten full into it, with the support
of Washington State government leaders, yet.
>
> You make it sound as though you have an intimate moment-by-moment
view into their private lives, when you imply that this recent
campaign is somehow detracting from their home lives, and time with
their families. Is this a fact for which you have unassailable
evidence, or is this just an assumption you've made at great remove
from the boys themselves?
>
> The fact is, that at every stage of their career, Bob, Don, Nokie,
and Mel, (now Leon), have lived remarkably balanced lives, spending
as much time as possible at home, with family and loved ones close
by. These guys are and have been about as conventional in that
regard, as possible, given the demands of their chosen career.
>
> One last thing, you put forth a notion that I've heard before from
others, that The Ventures songwriting, melodies, dynamics, etc, etc,
yada yada yada, don't bear up under comparison with other bands. I
agree that the frenetic deadlines their Record Company kept them
under, forced them to create 24 - 30 brand-new originals in a year's
time, while on tour most of the time! Not easy to maintain the
highest standards on a consistent basis, under that kind of
pressure! Accepted as a given.
>
> Still, they wrote several Gems that have become Instro classics in
their own right:
>
> Journey To The Stars, (which stands up to ANY song of ANY era, as
simply outstanding IMHO),
>
> Driving Guitars Spudnik/Surf
Rider
> Yellow Jacket The 2000
Pound Bee (Pts 1 & 2)
>
> Pedal Pusher Gandy Dancer
>
> Not to mention, I feel their unique, and unprecedented (at the
time) arrangement of Walk, Don't Run, taking it from a finger-
picked, country-jazz number, and magically transforming it into a
Rock & Roll Guitar Anthem, certainly offers objective proof of
formidable vision, creativity and aesthetic sensibility coming
together in an immortal performance.
> The Ventures' 1960 recording of this song is the equivalent of The
Crown Jewels.
>
> Jacob, you are most welcome to your opinions. However, there are
many, myself included, who feel the gems they created, more than
compensate for other songs that were mainly album-filler. Further,
they created more gems than the vast majority of other bands out
there, which is one of the reasons their career has spanned 45 years
and still-counting, in itself yet another reason they oughta be in
the R&R HOF.
>
> It's their decision to make, whether or not to pursue it. If they
want it, they have my unconditional support.
>
> Peace,
>
> Bruce D
>
>
>
>
>
> jacobdobner <jacobdobner@y...> wrote:
>
> The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame doesn't matter. Being in the Rock
and
> Roll Hall of Fame will not make these guys any more immortal. And
are
> you aware of some of the bands in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
It
> is like getting a Ventures video onto the MTV TRL Hall of Fame.
>
> Chantays and Surfaris shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. But it is
the
> Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the only reason they are in is
because
> of it being a formality. Wipe Out is a crappy song. But more
> recognizable than Walk Don't Run.
>
> I use better in the sense of more energy, better songwriting(melody
> and dynamics), and albums as a whole.
>
> >
> > You're welcome to your opinions, Jacob, but you won't find much
> support for them on this discussion group. Certainly none from
me.
> >
>
> That was very subtle at being terribly angry at me. Perhaps you
should
> have worded it like "I respect your opinions but I must stand
> steadfast in my opinion that the Ventures must, beyond a shadow of
> doubt, be admitted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame". Or you could
> just do what you did.
>
> >
> > One last thing, Jacob. You say the guys are trying too hard. Do
> you have an ounce of empathy or compassion in your soul? At the
> current age, (and likely state of health), just how many years do
you
> think they can afford to waste, waitiing around for those &%#@#'s
at
> the HOF?
> >
>
> They shouldn't be wasting their last years or decade or two
working on
> getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Do they want to be
right
> next to Prince? They need to be content with their many millions of
> records sold and the place they have in the fans hearts. I wonder
how
> much stress is on them in their pursuit to get into the HOF?
Instead
> of going out and collecting signitures spend some time with the
wife,
> kis, or grandchildren.
>
>
>
>
> They should take some comfort in the fact that they still have so
many
> people coming out to their shows that support them.
>
> --- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Jacob, you are welcome to your opinions. To those of us who
> consider ourselves real fans of The Ventures, there has never been
a
> question that they are absolutely one of the dominant rock acts of
all
> time.
> >
> > If measured on record sales, they were 6th in U.S. album sales,
> during the 1960's, meaning that they appealed to a far larger and
more
> devoted audience than a large number of existing H.O.F. inductees
ever
> did!
> >
> > If measured on "influence", two generations of rock guitarists,
some
> of them legends themselves, cite The Ventures as having been an
early
> motivating, and instructional force in their lives.
> >
> > If measured based upon "hits", they charted in the Top 40 at
least
> three times, with Walk Don't Run (1960) #2 Nationwide; Walk Don't
Run
> '64, and Hawaii Five-O (1969).
> >
> > The use of the word "better" in comparing other bands, is a
matter
> of opinion. Better how? In muscianship, song-writing, longevity of
> career, number of active fans?
> >
> > There's also a question of due-recognition and of the Hall of
Fame
> being fair and accurate in such recognition. Many people have
> forgotten the name of the band, (The Chantays) who first recorded
the
> song "Pipeline", but they got their induction into the R&R Hall of
> Fame, years ago, and were cited as having written and recorded one
of
> the most influential Instrumental tunes of all time. Likewise the
> Surfaris, with "Wipe-Out".
> >
> > Now, Jacob, not to take away one iota of recognition from The
> Chantays or The Surfaris, if you were The Ventures, don't you think
> you would wonder why a song that pre-dated Wipe Out, and Pipeline,
but
> is considered by most Rock historians to have been the most
> influential, essential hits of the era - Walk Don't Run, has
failed so
> far, to get The Ventures, (who taught the world to play guitar)
into
> the H.O.F.?
> >
> > A few years ago, Guitar Player Magazine listed the most essential
> songs and albums of all time, (from a guitarist's perspective).
The
> Ventures were on the Top 20 list, NOT The Chantays, NOT The
Surfaris.
> Both the other bands had active careers that lasted but a few
years.
> (Yes, I know that both bands have resurrected themselves since the
> 1990's, and one can see them perform from time to time). The
Ventures
> weathered the onslaught of the British Invasion, survived the
1960's,
> still responsible for Top 100 album sales 10 years after Walk
Don't Run.
> >
> > In fact, as late as 1972, they were the world's #1 Instrumental
> Pop/Rock Band according to the Playboy Pop and Jazz Poll!
> >
> > Most Ventures fans, including me, view the H.O.F.'s continued
> ingoring of The Ventures to be a total travesty, an indication of
> their unfitness to be an arbiter of what was or was not great,
given
> this patent lack of objectivity on their part, in steadfastly
refusing
> to admit The Ventures.
> >
> > My opinion, based on dozens and dozens of other acts that have
been
> admitted to the H.O.F.
> > is that by any objective standard, based on already-admitted
bands,
> The Ventures absence represents a glaring, scandalous omission on
the
> part of those who run the H.O.F.
> >
> > You're welcome to your opinions, Jacob, but you won't find much
> support for them on this discussion group. Certainly none from
me.
> >
> > AllFame. surf musicians, and Surf Music fans owe a tremendoous
debt
> to The Ventures, and I for one, will continue to energetically and
> enthusiastically support their way-overdue induction, at long last,
> into the Rock & Roll Hall of
> >
> > One last thing, Jacob. You say the guys are trying too hard. Do
> you have an ounce of empathy or compassion in your soul? At the
> current age, (and likely state of health), just how many years do
you
> think they can afford to waste, waitiing around for those &%#@#'s
at
> the HOF?
> >
> > Bruce D
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> .
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Onto the question of The Shadows vs The Ventures -
Jacob - your preferences aside, how in the world would one possibly expect to
see an act that was never promoted, never played on US Top-40 Radio, and never
sold more than a handful of records in the U.S. - be inducted into an American
Rock Hall of Fame?
Have The Shadows earned it? Jacob, help me out here, I can't remember, when
was The Shadows' last U.S. Tour? Or how many times and engagaements did they
ever play in the U.S.?
Bruce D
jacobdobner <> wrote:
Enither the Chantays or The Surfaris have been inducted into the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame. Good call. Both of those bands along with the
Ventures are under 500 most important songs of all-time. But none of
them are inducted.
I prefer the Shadows of the Ventures any day. I think the Shadows
should get in first. The Shadows wrote many more songs themselves. The
Ventures sure did a lot of covers. Granted they wrote some great ones
like Surf Rider. And whenever I look at a ventures albums I see a lot
of Shadows covers.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
>
> There's also a question of due-recognition and of the Hall of Fame
being fair and accurate in such recognition. Many people have
forgotten the name of the band, (The Chantays) who first recorded the
song "Pipeline", but they got their induction into the R&R Hall of
Fame, years ago, and were cited as having written and recorded one of
the most influential Instrumental tunes of all time. Likewise the
Surfaris, with "Wipe-Out".
>
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jacob:
Are you really saying what you seem to be saying in the below posting?
That The Shadows wrote: Apache, Telstar, Hawaii Five-O, Sleepwalk?
Is this what you said, or am I having a hallucination here?!!!
Bruce D
jacobdobner <> wrote:
That should read I prefer the Shadows over the Ventures. And to
clarify the third sentence it should be: The Shadows wrote many more
of their more recognizable songs themselves. Hawaii Five-O, Telstar,
Apache, Sleepwalk.
--- In , "jacobdobner" <jacobdobner@y...>
wrote:
> I prefer the Shadows of the Ventures any day. I think the Shadows
> should get in first. The Shadows wrote many more songs themselves. The
> Ventures sure did a lot of covers. Granted they wrote some great ones
> like Surf Rider. And whenever I look at a ventures albums I see a lot
> of Shadows covers.
>
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jacob - Further your music education before expressing further inaccurate views
of The Ventures! Their compilation CD's are super available and easy to find.
They wrote and recorded "Journey To The Stars" in 1963/64 The versions you
mention are all just covers of that immortal original!
Bruce D
jacobdobner <> wrote:
Journey to the Stars is the absolute best. One of the best intstros
ever written. I have never heard the Ventures version,
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jacobdobner wrote:
>Journey to the Stars is the absolute best. One of the best intstros
>ever written. I have never heard the Ventures version, to my
>knowledge, which is disappointing. I have heard the Man or Astro-Man?,
>Nebulas, and Space Cossacks version of it.
>
>
>
I didn't want to get into this, but here goes anyway:
Jacob, you gotta go buy "Ventures In Space". Where do you think MoAM?
got started from? That and their TV themes album. You can tell they were
a big influence on the early MoAM?
The Shadows never wrote Apache, Sleep Walk, Telstar, or Hawaii 5-0
either....
Jan Wenner is a guy.
The Shadows have a lot of great songs, I wouldn't consider Flingel Bunt
their best. Man of Mystery rocks pretty hard for an early 60's song. And
uh, what about The Savage? FBI, Frightened City, Gonzales, Atlantis,
Apache...not all of these rock hard, and they didn't write all of these,
but they are great songs and very well played. I think they make Flingel
Bunt look kind of pedestrian.
It does kind of rub me the wrong way that The Ventures seem to be trying
to get into the RnR HOF, but I don't loose any sleep over it. They are
the FREAKING Ventures after all. They should be in there, no doubt about it.
BN
> That should read I prefer the Shadows over the Ventures. And to
> clarify the third sentence it should be: The Shadows wrote many
more
> of their more recognizable songs themselves. Hawaii Five-O,
Telstar,
> Apache, Sleepwalk.
Jacob,
You need to get a copy of the Ventures playing "Journey to the Stars"
No version is better than their own "Live in Japan '65."
I don't understand. Are you saying the Shadows wrote, Hawaii Five-
0, Telstar, Apache, and Sleepwalk?
Wow! I really couldn't compare the Shadows with the Ventures. I
like the Shads but the Ventures BLOW em away IMO. Someone once said
on the Fender Forum this of the Shads, "nice try for a bunch of
english guys."
With all due respect the Ventures versions of, Sleepwalk, Telestar,
and Apache aren't as great as the originals, and I personally hate
Hawaii 5-0. IMO the Ventures were at their best starting off with
their last "Fender" album "Lets Go!" uptil about "Wild Things" in
1966. I really like the Ventures when they used the Mosrite
guitars, the Mosrite Fuzzrites, and the organs.
For good Ventures albums check out, "the Ventures in Space," "The
Ventures: Knock Me Out," "the Ventures Walk Don't Run Vol. 2,"
and "the Ventures Live in Japan 1965." I could argue reasons for
them to be in the ROHF based just on the "Live in Japan '65." But I
still like their earlier Fender albums that Bob played lead on too.
I just don't like anything with Gerry McGee on it.
What the hell were the Shadows doing in the mid '60s? "Rhythm and
Greens" "yeah baby ohh ahhh!!!" ????? :)
Yes, by all means, get yourself a copy of Live in Japan, '65....
I wasn't saying the Shadows wrote those.
I own The Ventures Play the Classics LP, Telstar LP(or is it named
Lonely Bull?), The Showtunes album LP(that rules), and a greatest hits
LP. Then I own a crappy one I bought at a thrift store that has a
terrible Strawberry Fields Forever cover.
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> > That should read I prefer the Shadows over the Ventures. And to
> > clarify the third sentence it should be: The Shadows wrote many
> more
> > of their more recognizable songs themselves. Hawaii Five-O,
> Telstar,
> > Apache, Sleepwalk.
>
> Jacob,
>
> You need to get a copy of the Ventures playing "Journey to the Stars"
> No version is better than their own "Live in Japan '65."
>
> I don't understand. Are you saying the Shadows wrote, Hawaii Five-
> 0, Telstar, Apache, and Sleepwalk?
>
> Wow! I really couldn't compare the Shadows with the Ventures. I
> like the Shads but the Ventures BLOW em away IMO. Someone once said
> on the Fender Forum this of the Shads, "nice try for a bunch of
> english guys."
>
> With all due respect the Ventures versions of, Sleepwalk, Telestar,
> and Apache aren't as great as the originals, and I personally hate
> Hawaii 5-0. IMO the Ventures were at their best starting off with
> their last "Fender" album "Lets Go!" uptil about "Wild Things" in
> 1966. I really like the Ventures when they used the Mosrite
> guitars, the Mosrite Fuzzrites, and the organs.
> For good Ventures albums check out, "the Ventures in Space," "The
> Ventures: Knock Me Out," "the Ventures Walk Don't Run Vol. 2,"
> and "the Ventures Live in Japan 1965." I could argue reasons for
> them to be in the ROHF based just on the "Live in Japan '65." But I
> still like their earlier Fender albums that Bob played lead on too.
> I just don't like anything with Gerry McGee on it.
>
> What the hell were the Shadows doing in the mid '60s? "Rhythm and
> Greens" "yeah baby ohh ahhh!!!" ????? :)
