Fripperton
We play free concerts but charge $5 if you want to leave.

Wait! Forget my previous post--THIS is the greatest thing I've ever
heard!!!

Vince

Is this something you can share with the rest of us, Amazing Larry?!?

Your worthless Canadian cents are worth more than my American politically and religiously righteous two cents.

This post has been removed by the author.

Last edited: Sep 23, 2009 17:07:27

zak
<B>exposure.</b>

Nothing infuriates me more than when somebody says "It will be great exposure". Once, a multi billion dollar video game gave that line to me. I couldn't believe it! I asked the woman who called if she was working for free, and if the engineers were working for free. She dumbly answered "No". But she then said that we were the first band that had asked to be paid! In the end, we got paid because they had already synced all the movements to the music. The squeaky wheel gets the money.
Business people know that musicians and artists are easy marks. Every penny they don't give to you they just keep for themselves.
Bands: Do not give yourself away!!!

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Ference,

I agree 100% with everything you said. I was thinking of cause that may warrant a free performance. Children's Hospital and returning combat veterans from Iraq & Afghanistan are several causes that come to mind. Otherwise when people call a band & ask them to play their event, they should expect to pay the band.

I was at one gig not long ago where a successful businessman hired The Eliminators & Los Straightjackets. The gentleman paid the bands their standard rates & in return, he got a party to remember. Everyone went home happy.

There are differences & similarities between full-time pros and hobbyists (I fall in the hobbyist category). In most clubs here at least, both are going to be playing for a share of the door (occasionally, a share of food & bar sales), regardless of who you are. The only real difference may be the ability to demand a minimum guarantee.

In our experience, we can make more playing private functions, festivals and corporate events, where we negotiate and are paid a specified fee, than most bar gigs where the door may be split among three or four bands and a promoter as well. I've asked for & gotten guarantees at times for club shows, but for some reason, I don't ask for them all the time, probably cause I don't think I'm entitled to it (hmm...).

The people I know who pursue a full-time living at music hussle to keep busy and working. This includes guys who supplement their performing income by recording and teaching, or doing guitar and amp repairs, or playing in a number of bands (like Zak said) or getting hired as "jobbers", or occasionally, gigs touring with "name" artists (another guy I know, a great rockabilly drummer, is currently working as a carpenter on a tour with a major MOR act). Others compose for TV and film-- and, another guy I know basically "settled down" and retired from performing at 40 and opened up a rehearsal/recording studio. Of the bunch, the guy working in TV actually makes some good $$, but otherwise, I see extremely talented people struggling to make ends meet, and at a certain level, some show occasional signs of bitterness at their fate... the words, "I'm doing what I love", muttered through clenched teeth...

Whether full-time pros or moonlighters (and setting aside special favours or benefits), I don't understand why anybody would expect musicians not to get paid for playing, at least, on the basis of the audience they attract (or play for), either by way of a door or cover charge, or a percentage of food & beverage sales. But I also understand supply and demand, and that the amount the club or venue can pay is going to depend on their own financial considerations.

Anyway, having said all that, I don't know if the construction worker analogy totally works, because there aren't many bricklayers or carpenters, for example, who are willing to go around plying their craft for the presumed benefit of others "just for fun".

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Where's Professor Ivan? I'm sure he can apply all that free market theory he knows to this conversation ;)

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

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Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

Unfortuneately it's not just the music world that is not getting paid anymore. I am a tile setter by trade, and am having a hard time making any money at it anymore. There are, excuse me, hispanics who will do the tile jobs for less than $100. and it puts guys like me out of buisness.

Club owners are HIP to this theory, and that's one reason why they are hiring up to 4 bands per show per night. It used to be that bands were expected to play a 4 hour show, and they had to pay the bands...
I can't remember the last 3 hour show we have done, they are all an hour or less now, and nobody can make any money under those terms.

It's pretty sad!!!

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DannySnyder
Where's Professor Ivan?

Trying to finish writing my %$#@* book - but it'll happen TODAY!! CAN'T wait!

I'm sure he can apply all that free market theory he knows to this conversation ;)

Well, Casey also mentioned that it's a matter of supply and demand, and that's pretty much always the case. We can break it down a bit further - I'll try to do that quickly. Demand for live entertainment has been drying up, especially among young people who were most likely to go see live music in the past. Too many other entertainment options. So, that's driving much of the suckiness for musicians (formal term). On the supply side, it's a matter of bargaining power, which is determined by who has the better options: if the club owner tells a band to play for free or even take a hike, can he get another band in that will draw the same or more? Yep, very likely. So, the club owner has great options - many near perfect substitutes. What's the band's bargaining power? If they take the club owner to take a hike, as Danny pointed out, do most bands have many other options where to play? Probably not. The musicians' options are pretty bad. So, the owner has the bargaining power, and therefore sets the wage. The main reason for this is the explosion of competition among musicians, and that in turn is due to the advances in the standard of living created by capitalism over the last 200 years. It's a fact, one well documented by economists, that people work less today than ever in the past and make a lot more real income (allowing them to take care of pretty much most of their needs) in that shorter time they work (of course, this may not apply to all individuals, but is rather an aggregate number). That means that people have a lot more time to pursue fun activities, a big one being music. Small-time professional musicians are facing unprecedented competition from hobbyists today, and the driving factor is the amount of free time, as well as increased access to music-making resources, that many people have. It sucks to try to be a pro musician today - it's become a market that economists describe as a 'winner-take-all' - meaning that if you're small time, you are probably among the least income-earners in our society, but if you make it, you're going to be among the highest income-earners. So, in response to all the bitching about mistreatment by clubs and not getting paid enough, an economist would squarely put the blame on the rise of the hobbyist musicians - basically most of us on this forum. Ultimately the only solution for any band or individual musician is to increase his bargaining power, and of course the most direct way to do that is to increase the number of people that come to your show. If you can consistently beat the hobbyists, you will get paid more. However, it's by no means clear to me that today's small-time pro-musicians exhibit in general any greater quality or drawing power than dedicated hobbyists (said the dedicated hobbyist)....

The broader market developments have made it more difficult for people to make a living playing music, but main reason for that is that music unlike cleaning toilets, manufacturing, etc. is not just labor but it is also in a large part a consumption good - meaning that people play music to gain great psychic benefits rather than just money. Most other jobs require greater pay because they exhibit very little consumption element - they are jobs that people would not do unless they are paid money, maybe a lot of money.

There you go, that's my economic analysis. You asked for it!
Ivan

Ivan
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Just a couple things I thought of after reading that brilliant analysis:

In addition to the established hobbyists, I'd say that cover bands can usually guarantee a good crowd for club owners. There are cover bands for almost every band you can think of.

My personal favorite: The Iron Maidens. They do a great job, plus Steve Harris never looked better.

And one more thing: I read that in Scotland, if you are unemployed, you can play and record music in a studio and the government will PAY you.

Any Scots in this forum that can confirm or deny this?

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.