Great question! I’ve often wondered along the same lines - hoping for some good info!

-John

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*DeathTide wrote

If I had iso rooms for the cabs at practice, I’d use Glyn Johns + close mics + distant room mics for the drums, then choose what sound I want. Most likely the Glyn Johns mics would get the most play, then the close mics could provide some detail and bass, and the room mics would add any “life” needed. (This is totally my plan when I get good enough at guitar to record in a fancy studio with cab rooms.)

Surely the point of the Glyn Johns method is to avoid the need for close mics. Your approach would give added flexibility, of course. I think we’ve become so accustomed to the somewhat hyped sound of close mics on drums that we are probably reluctant to let go of them and opt for something more basic, such as the GJ method.

I imagine that very minimal mic setups were used on drums during the first wave. I’m sure there are people here who could tell us more about this.

On the last recordings that we did, the engineer used 15 mics on the kit (one of which was not really intended for use, but he liked the sound of it). I really wish I’d asked him to go for a much simpler approach; it would have made mixing one hell of a lot easier. I could, of course, just use one kick, one snare and the overheads, but it wouldn’t be the same as GJ and, once presented with the choices, it is so tempting to use them.

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Over the last few months I have added to and updated my main stereo with some new amps, subs and speaker arrays all focused around my listening lounger. Just a great way to fully appreciate a great mix and master. The artist that seems to produce the greatest fidelity and sonic enjoyment is modern Joe. Although not surf, this is the standard I will use moving forward when I have the pleasure of finally mixing new music. Punch, depth, clarity and definition!

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Ok, this is an interesting question, especially since my band is mixing new songs at the moment. (I would love a more trad/lo-fi mix, but I definitely am the only one in the band with that opinion.)

I don't know much about recording gear, and I sure wasn't around, when the songs of the first wave were recorded, but instead of purely speculating (which we had more than enough on this forum lately), I'm going to go with what I see on pictures and hear in the recordings, and leave it at a few remarks.

First of all, I think it's unlikely that the Glyn Johns technique was widely known around 1961-1964 (which is the time Bernard, the OP asked about). Johns started working as a recording engineer around 1962 in England and probbaly didn't develop this approach at recording drums right away.

What is visible in pictures from the sessions of the Challengers (World Pacific Studios) are single mic's as overheads and before the kick drum, as well as single mic's for the guitars and other instruments.

(Challenger pictures and attribution to World Pacific Studios by Randy Nauert, RIP)

With the Astronauts (RCA Studios) there seems to be a mic above the middle of the kit, maybe also a second one before the kick and hidden by the screen:

These are pictures from more professional places, smaller studios like PAL or Downey probably had a lot less equipment at hand, meaning that instruments probably shared mic's and their level could not be changed individually in level or EQ any more once they were recorded to three track (which was the maximum at this time). So mixing basically started by placing mic's and (re-)arranging the music.

So basically, while today the approach is often to make every instrument audible, surf recordings seem to be more about making the main instruments (the guitars and the sax) loud and proud, while everything else is more comping away in the background; often only just so loud that you can hear them at all. (For example, the kick drum on the first Challenger album is not audible at all most of the time, but you don't really miss it with a rhythm guitar and bass accentuating the beat anyway.)

Anyway, my approach for a trad style mix is to start with the guitar and then blend in "everything else" to taste without worrying about concerns from the drummer or bass player, that they don't hear themselves in the mix. In MONO! Well, maybe it's a good thing, that I'm not in charge of mixing records alone...

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Last edited: Mar 28, 2020 07:47:10

Wow some fantastic insights. Thanks for chiming-in.

stratdancer, thanks for asking and I should have prefaced my post with the fact that it was a request of a film and tv guy who is unusually particular. In essence, he said, "When I pitch a track for a movie that takes place in 1964, I sincerely want it to sound like it was produced back then". I agree with you in that it is useful to listen to a mix through different systems but I am not 100% sure if Satriani's production value should be part of the "trad" approach but must also add that a lot of the music I work on strives for production values beyond anything retro so I fully understand where you are coming from. Curiously, I wonder if Allen Whitman of the Mermen still works with Joe.

DeathTide - Good question re: Phantom Surfers.

simoncoil - WOAH love the deductive reasoning cross-referencing with the photos. Love it. One thing I find very entertaining is the distance between the amps and the microphones. When Said the Ripper recorded, we used distance micing to great effect. We also ran everything through tape BUT mixed in ProTools. I agree with the "Loud and Proud" and everyone else is sort of "lesser". It's hard not to wonder what sort of conversations (debates?) took place in the studio as years went on and more tracks became available. I can hear it now ... "Hey, I formed the band and there is no band without drums, turn me up goddammit!".

Since posting, I have had a few fun conversations. One of them echoed a thought that I had which was sloppy and trashy has it's place here. This is not to say that I am 100% ready to celebrate poor or cheap or hasty production methods but I think it is safe to say that in some cases, this played a role; even if not desired by the musicians. Limited budget? Limited studio access? Maybe I am just damaged by surf's cousin GARAGE but I hope you all understand my drift ... Maybe this could be best explained by how sometimes that spontaneous rehearsal recording on a phone or whatever still sounds better than anything after the song was more refined and brought to a studio.

Thanks again everyone. I really am enjoying this and it is helping with the cabin fever. I'll circle back for sure ...

Bernard

Edited to fix typos

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Last edited: Mar 28, 2020 10:36:30

The Surfites captured the 1960 s surf sound on their 3 albums for Double Crown Records. I think one of the members mentioned that one mic was used on the drum kit. The bass and drums are certainly mixed fairly low on those releases.

Rev

Canadian Surf

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Haha I thought Glyn Johns method started in the 50s, a-whoopsies!

Not the fancy studio recordings like DD and Lively Ones, but many 1st wave surf sounds SUPER garagey. I keep internally referencing Bombora as possibly my all-time favorite sounding surf song, and that’s about as garagey as you can get without crossing into lo-fi!

Those garagey surf songs sound similarly recorded as doo-wop was a few years earlier. Some surf sounds has nearly identical production to indie “soulful” (that means black) doo wop. Stuff like Gone by the Gallahads, or Twilight by the Paragons. Those were studio recordings, but not the big fancy studios.

Apologies - I realize this is not a doo wop thread!

@psychonaut - I’m seeking the choice to use one sound vs. another in mixing! Maybe our more tradition songs get the Glyn Johns mics, and the more modern metal sounding songs get more close mics. Or something. The Phantom Surfers really get some incredible drum sounds for traditional-esque songs.

Daniel Deathtide

Not sure if this helps or not but here are two home recorded songs using different drum mic'ing techniques.

The first recording, to have the sound match the simplicity of the song, was recorded with one overhead mic and a kick drum mic. I wanted a "kids walk into a studio in '63 and want to record a song quick" vibe/sound.
I mixed the kick too low in volume but there is a cohesiveness of the kit that makes it sound like an instrument not multiple instruments. The drums are also mixed in a more mono-like way on this.

The second recording utilized a Glyn Johns setup with an added snare mic.
You can hear more separation and frequency range on the kit in this song, definitely more modern and stereo sounding.

Although it is the same kit in the same room (different snares) this comparison is a little off due to the fact that the first recording was captured 16 bit/44K and the second 24 bit/48K

Also, not sure how good the sounds are after being uploaded.

Hope this helps some.
Cheers,
Jeff

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One of the big limitations to 60's recordings besides multitrack recording was mixer channels - the Altec 1567 was the gold standard, and it has only 4 inputs. Some studios might have had 2 strapped together, but with a 4 piece instrumental band it can work. 3 mics for drums, 1 each for guitars, 1 bass, and maybe two room mics to get the whole band sound to mix to taste.

If you only have 4 channels and are recording live, you have to get a little more crafty...

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Sorry folks, I have been social distancing where there is no WiFi. Yesterday, for example, I went on a hike and found this crazy thing: ANIMAL TRACK. Anyways, back to the topic. Thanks Ferenc for your insights. The project I am on will definitely be working "backwards". That said, the topic of the room has popped up a few times and a recent exchange with John Blair had him making a point of this. Given the limitations of the mixing gear (nedorama) room played a huge role. I will circle back again....wishing everyone safety, health, sanity ...
B.

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