I guess this would be a bad time to bring up the subject of recording surf straight in...

But I will anyway! I just want to mention that plugging a 6G15 straight into the board (or Roland Quad-Capture in my case) captures the extreme drippiness of the unit that can get dissipated a bit when it's going through an amp and speakers. I don't know how that works but my straight in reverb recordings are just extremely reverby.

OK, some good points made here. Back to the original advice for Jim:
1. I wouldn't bother converting a Twin Reverb to a single 15. It will still be open back.
2. IMHO, you need a closed-back or Tone-Ring 15" cab to get the tone you are looking for.
3. Tone-Ring cabs are more bass heavy, maybe too heavy at close range, but sound great at the back of the room.
4. I think in smaller venues I like my sorta-half-of-a-2X15 cabs. They cut through better IMO.
Thanks Chris for mentioning the SG101 convention backline. Some of the speakers are K130, not just D130, but they are similar enough (and can handle power a little better). I usually set up the cabs that each head plays through one D130 and one K130 if possible.
Hope this helps,
Ran

The Scimitars

Hi JObeast!
I am not such an expert, but here is what I know:
D140 speakers are bass speakers. They share the frame and magnet with D130 speakers, but have a copper wire voice coil as opposed to aluminum in the D130. They have a ribbed cone vs a smooth cone.
D130 Vs D130F (from Harvey Gerst, the guy who designed them):
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?14876-difference-between-d130-and-d130F
Quote:

1. Widened D130F gap by shaving the pole piece slightly.

2. Added JBL "goop" to the D130F surround. (Same crap we used on the D123.)

/end quote
You can read some of his quotes in various places, where he debunks most of the DD BS (for example, here):
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9659-D130-versus-D130F-for-Fender-amp-help!&s=bed9968d4d2a353a22f05ad62aee15b0

The original D130 was around in the hifi world long before Dick Dale. I never met him, although I had heard his records.

The fact that he describes the alleged changes to the D130F - and get's it wrong means that he doesn't have a clue as to what the changes did to improve the D130 for musical instrument applications.

It wasn't "a rubberizing compound we applied to the edge of the D130 to improve cone stability due to large excursions". That's pure BS. It was the same damping "goop" we used on the D123. I used it to prevent the cone edge from drying out when the speakers were played outdoors. The "goop" was mainly used to prevent ringing in the D123, but I figured it would also help to keep the surround in the D130 from cracking and drying out.

There was no change to the voice coil whatsoever; that would require major reworking of our jigs and I was all about pitching the new MI line to Bill Thomas as a cheap way to increase sales and stop repair problems, by coming up with some cheap fixes, AND making the MI line more attractive by adding two new models (the D110F and D140F), built from existing parts.

Opening up the top plate was a no-brainer, since 1.) we didn't hafta do any major machinery changes, and 2.) it would prevent the power screwdriver, ham-handed idiots at Fender from torquing the hell out of the frame and causing the voice coil to warp. (Well, it would still warp, but the extra clearance in the new top plate would keep the windings from shorting out.) The new top plate resulted in less than a 1 dB drop in efficiency.

Dick Dale can posture all he wants; I never talked to him, Leo, or Freddy T. about the "F" series.

I wrote a one page proposal to Bill Thomas, outlining the ideas above and said it would probably increase sales of the MI stuff from $300,000 (where it was) to $1,000,000 within a year, at minimal cost to JBL. Bill Thomas said go for it, put me in charge, and we did $1,200,000 the first year. And that's the true story.

/end quote
About D130 reliability - the claims about the D130F being much more robust are probably exaggerated. The changes for D130F were mainly to help them survive better if the frame was distorted during installation (widened gap), and protect from drying of the surround due to more exposure to the elements in a guitar amp (vs home Hi-fi systems).
You should always be careful when using any of them, that's why I prefer to run 2 drivers per head, especially for 8-12 hour shows for 3 consecutive days. But - this past year I brought 6 speakers and 4 heads, so the the Showman heads were run into a single speaker, and everything was fine.

Hope this helps...
Ran

The Scimitars

Last edited: Oct 14, 2017 00:36:08

No, I didn't take any pics at all. Someone must have, though.
Ran

The Scimitars

Sonichris wrote:

Am I really that bad, Surfbeat? I know I've given you a hard time.

Chris, you are definitely not bad. We've walked the same paths, met face-to-face, so I would never interpret any statement you make about me as being critical, just a different opinion.

You know how written words cab get misinterpreted, so, I was just covering my rear-end if mine were misinterpreted and to give you the heads up that I was not attacking your opinion, just giving another perspective.

On a side note, i was talking to Tom last week about a DJ job he has coming up and I stated he made a wise selection for the pool party. Congrats are in order.

I should have know better than to toss in my two cents on this subject, but since I had a Tremolux with two 12's, plus my Showmman's, I thought, what the heck, let me toss out my perspective.

As you know, I search for a specific sound and found 15's work best for me. That means that my sound may not be what another guitarist is looking for.

I've seen too many times that guitarists often hear through their eyes, not their ears. Go for the sound that makes you want to play.

I use my 1961 Showman and my 1961 Vibrasonic mainly for playing. Both with 1x15"´s. Sold all other Fenders I had.
Yes, the wonderful handy Vibrasonic is like a little Showman with missing the thunder from the big mighty Showman a bit.
I thought about getting a back plate to the Vibrasonic. Has anyone done this before? Experiences? I guess it´s not necessary to drill new holes into the back of the amp.
So with a more closed back the thunder should be getting a bit bigger?

Twang cheers!

Ralf Kilauea

www.kilaueas.de

https://kilaueas.bandcamp.com/album/touch-my-alien

After being around all this stuff since the 60's and having used the JBL's in lots of applications, guitar cabs, PA cabs, keyboard cabs, etc, I'm not sure that I take Harvey's comments completely at face values. He seemed to want to blame the speaker's installation for the failures that led to the redesign of the original D series speakers. What we observed was that when really pushed, the speakers would get hot causing the voice coil former to warp and become misshapen and out of round. This was even more pronounced in small closed back enclosures. Somewhere along the way, the coil winding would begin to rub on the magnet structure, wear through the insulation and start buzzing, then ultimately burn out. The opening of the air gap from .052" to .086" improved the coil's cooling immensely but did affect the speaker's efficiency. The large gap JBL's are not as loud and fat sounding as the originals were.

At some point in the mid-late 60's we finally gave up on the JBL's especially in the PA, monitors and the Leslie. I frankly got tired of having them re-coned. I still have several blown ones lying around.

ed

Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?

tubeswell wrote:

Eddie makes a good point about the air gap around the pole piece. This greatly influences speaker efficiency and compression. In weber's range of vintage speakers, the pole piece gap is incredibly tight and that why those speakers sound good, but they are prone to heat problems and can be easily mistreated. I like lots of Weber's 15" speakers and the high-power range Cali 15, Chicago 15, and Neo 15 all sound fantastic in guitar amps. Their vintage range sound great too, but its a waste of time trying the low powered 15" range - which run nomex former coils which are prone to outgassing when hot, which then causes the inside of the former to bubble and rub against the magnet, spoiling the speaker. Higher rated speakers with the kapton former coils are much more durable. Aluminium formers are hardier too.

I have a Weber Neomag in a bandmaster cabinet that seems inefficient compared to the D130 I couple it with or even the SRO I'll run it with. I'm wondering if I put it in a small cab like my JBL it will sound better. It just seems a little dull in this cabinet. Any thoughts?

The Kahuna Kings

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kahuna-Kings/459752090818447

https://thekahunakings.bandcamp.com/releases

Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 09:07:35

Thanks! Yes, the bandmaster just got a bassman transformer but with either the bandmaster or the quilter I find the neomag to be less than satisfying compared to the D130F or the SRO. Just surprised me.

The Kahuna Kings

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kahuna-Kings/459752090818447

https://thekahunakings.bandcamp.com/releases

I did check the polarity just to be sure. I also tried different batting configurations.

The Kahuna Kings

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kahuna-Kings/459752090818447

https://thekahunakings.bandcamp.com/releases