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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Surf Musician »

Surf drumming - my subjective thoughts

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TFJ Joined: Mar 04, 2006 Posts: 278	Posted on Apr 02 2006 07:06 PM ok, trad but exotic and without the surf beat in every song which is good. But the Paco de Lucia song (not on the cd) is delving into prog territory - not that its a bad thing - I like it..and I like PDM, too. You're not trad in the 1-4-5, walking bass line, surf beat in every song trad. Dane can get away with more hi-hat than I could..unless you give him that look, too. Or maybe that's only when he hits the china cymbal:) Rush Rules! 2112 forever! Top
spskins Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 3780 tn	Posted on Apr 05 2006 08:54 AM BUT ...incidently I was watchng a documentary on Keith Moon on the ele tonight, and it was mentioned how Keith Moon liked surf music, some producer sying " yeah he really liked surf music and was influenced by it, esp since in surf the drums was always very loud in the mix, and he took that from surf" or sothing along those lines. I went, WTF!!!???? (but nobody heard, the wife was out and the kids in bed.) WR Just saw a video of The Kids Are Alright (the song) from '66. Keith sporting a Maltese Cross around his neck and John's playing a white Ventures model Mosrite bass! — http://www.satanspilgrims.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/Satans-Pilgrims/8210228553 https://satanspilgrims.bandcamp.com/ http://www.surfyindustries.com Top
WR Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 3832 netherlands	Posted on Apr 05 2006 09:06 AM spskins Just saw a video of The Kids Are Alright (the song) from '66. Keith sporting a Maltese Cross around his neck and John's playing a white Ventures model Mosrite bass! hmm, that would be inetresting to dig into - my bet is in '66 in Europe wearing a Maltese Cross would have been considered quite a provocation. god knows, you can get beat up for wearing one now if you meet the wrong crowd. but maybe something for a The Who forum, huh? history of the Maltese Cross has been done "here"before. WR — Rules to live by #314: "When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is." https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/ Top
dp Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 3546 mojave desert, california	Posted on Apr 05 2006 10:44 AM WR spskins Just saw a video of The Kids Are Alright (the song) from '66. Keith sporting a Maltese Cross around his neck and John's playing a white Ventures model Mosrite bass! hmm, that would be inetresting to dig into - my bet is in '66 in Europe wearing a Maltese Cross would have been considered quite a provocation. god knows... Dudes: I do know that good ol' Keith Moon was an avid surf music enthusiast...in fact, Keith's only solo album ("Two Sides of the Moon") has a track with the inimitible Dick Dale...(the tune is called "Teenage Idol")...also on this album is Keith's version of the BeachBoys "Don't Worry Baby"... In the early 60s, John Entwistle was a big fan of both Duane Eddy and the Ventures. John was experimenting with all sorts of basses in the early 60s: Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Fender, Vox, Gretsch,Gibson, Mosrite etcetera... John would become an avid guitar and bass collector. Eventually, John settled in on an assortment Alembic-style custom basses...in the end he was a big fan of the incredibly ugly "Buzzard" bass... -dp See "two sides of the moon" here http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000005EI3/102-0755663-8795341?v=glance&n=5174 Top
CaptainSpringfield Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 4387 Under the Sun	Posted on Apr 05 2006 07:46 PM spskins saw a video of The Kids Are Alright (the song) from '66. Keith sporting a Maltese Cross around his neck and John's playing a white Ventures model Mosrite bass! Moon and a few drinking buddies had a penchant for dressing up in full Third Reich regalia, according to his biography "Moon" (which is an excellent read). The book mentions surf music quite a bit--I don't know how accurate it is in the claim that "The Ox" was an intentional reworking of the Surfaris' "Waikiki Run," though. -Warren — That was excessively violent and completely unnecessary. I loved it. Top
kick_the_reverb Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 1337 Escondido, CA	Posted on Apr 06 2006 10:44 AM TFJ I think the style of a particular band should influence the drum sound used, and/or in some cases vice versa. Over the course of our 3 studio albums, I've gradually brought the hi-hat back into picture a little bit, always wary of it being too loud, but trying to achieve some variety in the ride source. I think Ted (SP), Doug Hoekstra of the Cossacks, Birdstuff (MOAM) & Jimmy Lester (LS) used the hi-hat effectively without it being overpowering in the mix so listening to those guys certainly influenced me a bit. I think Dusty is a different animal altogether - I think he's a rock drummer that knows the ins and outs of surf music like no other and can dominate the hihat and still make it sound surfy. Jeremy and Dane both play in decidedly non-trad sounding bands where the hihat is most welcome - both can of course play the surf beat with the best of them, but I think their respective bands' compositions allow them to expand way beyond that. When the Nebulas start playing stuff in "5" or "3," I'll let you know - we're still working on 4/4. Snare: the foundation of most music, but especially surf, so I good snare sound is essential - and there are so many sounds you can get out of it (rimshots, backbeat, etc.), so it should be employed to its fullest potential. Thanks for your thoughts Jim, I think I share most of my opinions on surf drums with you. BTW, my opinions are regarding trad bands. Once you get into less and less trad, all bets are off. For example, Pollo Del Mar (one of the few non-trad bands that I like)'s Jeremy plays a lot of beats and fills that might not work in a 100% trad band, but are awsome when seeing PDM live. MOAM? - Birdstuff's drumming was a real good mix of punk and trad elements (all my MOAM? discussions are in reference to the band in Stracrunch days). So, eventhough he was using a lot of hi-hat, it was in a non-overbearing way. I want to comment on Jim's discussion on drums in the mix, but I want to take it over to the recording forum, under a new topic called - surf drum recording techniques or something like that. Ran — The Scimitars Top
TFJ Joined: Mar 04, 2006 Posts: 278	Posted on Apr 06 2006 10:52 PM All my MOAM listening and discussions surround the Star Crunch era as well - nothing against the later incarnations, but those first few albums '93-'96 were what made them unique Top
IvanP Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 10331 southern Michigan	Posted on Apr 09 2006 05:17 PM WR ...incidently I was watchng a documentary on Keith Moon on the ele tonight, and it was mentioned how Keith Moon liked surf music, some producer sying " yeah he really liked surf music and was influenced by it, esp since in surf the drums was always very loud in the mix, and he took that from surf" or sothing along those lines. I went, WTF!!!???? (but nobody heard, the wife was out and the kids in bed.)WR Wannes, if you listen to the Surfaris recordings, the drums were WAY up in the mix! Pretty unprecedented for the time, I must say. Also, I doubt that Keith Moon heard the Atlantics, but the drums are pretty loud on many of their songs, too. I'm sure there are more examples from sixties surf where the drums are much louder than in any music up to that time. Ivan — Ivan Lords of Atlantis on Facebook The Madeira Official Website The Madeira on Facebook The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook The Space Cossacks on Facebook The Madeira Channel on YouTube Top
dp Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 3546 mojave desert, california	Posted on Apr 09 2006 10:14 PM re: keith moon and surf drums... surf drummers were realatively "active" when compared to other forms of radio-pop drumming back in the late 50s and early 60s.... additionally, the instrumental genre allowed much more room or sonic space for an ultra-active (or loud) drummer... judging from Keith's style, the things he likely dug about surf drumming were the rolls, the snare work, the ride and of course the cymbal crashes... also, if you ever noticed, Keith wasn't much of a high-hat-using drummer...real similar to surf, if you ask me... -dp Top
90 Joined: May 16, 2006 Posts: 91 Florianopolis SC Brazil	Posted on May 16 2006 05:01 PM I recall seeing videos of Keith playing that huge two-kick drum kit with NO hi hat... — http://www.myspace.com/cochabambas http://gianninisupersonic.blogspot.com Top
dp Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 3546 mojave desert, california	Posted on May 16 2006 06:03 PM Keith did play the monster no-high hat kits in the late 60s and on through the seventies. in the early days (1964-1966) keith played a smaller kit...with hi-hat... I think he changed over to the "Massive Keith Moon Kit" around 1967...Monterrey Pop Festival and all that...he had his "Pictures of Lilly" double-kick-drum set...the one that had the giant "THE" on one bass drum and "WHO" on the other. Top
spskins Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 3780 tn	Posted on May 16 2006 11:32 PM TFJ Over the course of our 3 studio albums, I've gradually brought the hi-hat back into picture a little bit, always wary of it being too loud, but trying to achieve some variety in the ride source. I think Ted (SP), Doug Hoekstra of the Cossacks, Birdstuff (MOAM) & Jimmy Lester (LS) used the hi-hat effectively without it being overpowering in the mix so listening to those guys certainly influenced me a bit. I probably brought more hi-hat in for our NW garage influenced songs, and when I did so, I used the Wailers/Sonics/Kingsmen as a model and later the Outsiders (Holland). When it comes to surf/instrumental tunes don't let anyone tell you there's no such thing as hi hat in Surf. My hi hat heroes are: Ron Wilson (Surfaris-there's even some on Wipe Out!), Mel Taylor (one of the best foot pedal players ever), Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer (there's hi hat all over the Gary Usher stuff). Oh, and we can't forget hi hat bashing Dennis Wilson! I know, I know.... Sure, a lot of these guys were pro studio musicians coming from a jazz background, so I think the perception of "no hi hat in surf" comes from the teen bands, such as The Original Surfaris, whose drummer may have not even had one as part of his kit. The secret is to try and make it sizzle and work with the ride, so they mesh rather than clash. — http://www.satanspilgrims.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/Satans-Pilgrims/8210228553 https://satanspilgrims.bandcamp.com/ http://www.surfyindustries.com Top
krupanut Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 492 Austin Texas	Posted on May 17 2006 08:22 AM spskins TFJ Over the course of our 3 studio albums, I've gradually brought the hi-hat back into picture a little bit, always wary of it being too loud, but trying to achieve some variety in the ride source. I think Ted (SP), Doug Hoekstra of the Cossacks, Birdstuff (MOAM) & Jimmy Lester (LS) used the hi-hat effectively without it being overpowering in the mix so listening to those guys certainly influenced me a bit. I probably brought more hi-hat in for our NW garage influenced songs, and when I did so, I used the Wailers/Sonics/Kingsmen as a model and later the Outsiders (Holland). When it comes to surf/instrumental tunes don't let anyone tell you there's no such thing as hi hat in Surf. My hi hat heroes are: Ron Wilson (Surfaris-there's even some on Wipe Out!), Mel Taylor (one of the best foot pedal players ever), Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer (there's hi hat all over the Gary Usher stuff). Oh, and we can't forget hi hat bashing Dennis Wilson! I know, I know.... Sure, a lot of these guys were pro studio musicians coming from a jazz background, so I think the perception of "no hi hat in surf" comes from the teen bands, such as The Original Surfaris, whose drummer may have not even had one as part of his kit. The secret is to try and make it sizzle and work with the ride, so they mesh rather than clash. Agreed on all points Ted, well put. and I love Dennis Wilson's drumming! Wonder what the BBs records would sound like if Dennis had played on say Dance, dance, dance. It'd be a garage rock classic! — The Thunderchiefs Top
90 Joined: May 16, 2006 Posts: 91 Florianopolis SC Brazil	Posted on May 17 2006 10:33 AM spskins When it comes to surf/instrumental tunes don't let anyone tell you there's no such thing as hi hat in Surf. My hi hat heroes are: Ron Wilson (Surfaris-there's even some on Wipe Out!), Mel Taylor (one of the best foot pedal players ever), Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer (there's hi hat all over the Gary Usher stuff). Oh, and we can't forget hi hat bashing Dennis Wilson! I know, I know.... As I was reading this whole discussion on the hi-hat, I thought about Mel Taylor all of the time, in particular his awesome playing on "live in Japan 65". He really knew how to fit the hi-hat on the songs without it sounding "intrusive" at all (think "the cruel sea" and "Slaughter on 10th ave") Regarding the Original Surfaris: didnÂ´t they have a song called "hi hat"? (very silly but couldnÂ´t help it) — http://www.myspace.com/cochabambas http://gianninisupersonic.blogspot.com Top
spskins Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 3780 tn	Posted on May 17 2006 11:11 AM Agreed on all points Ted, well put. and I love Dennis Wilson's drumming! Wonder what the BBs records would sound like if Dennis had played on say Dance, dance, dance. It'd be a garage rock classic! It exists! Video footage of them on the TAMI show and other live appearances has Dennis totally killing the beat on that song. I think in the "Beach Boys American Band" rocumentary, they even edit different live appearances of the BBs doing Dance, Dance, Dance together and they all rip ! Of course, the chicks are screaming their heads off for our boy Dennis. — http://www.satanspilgrims.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/Satans-Pilgrims/8210228553 https://satanspilgrims.bandcamp.com/ http://www.surfyindustries.com Top
spskins Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 3780 tn	Posted on May 17 2006 11:14 AM Regarding the Original Surfaris: didnÂ´t they have a song called "hi hat"? (very silly but couldnÂ´t help it) I knew that if I mentioned a particular band, I'd be taken to task! There's no escaping the evil hi hat! Muwhahahahahahaha — http://www.satanspilgrims.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/Satans-Pilgrims/8210228553 https://satanspilgrims.bandcamp.com/ http://www.surfyindustries.com Top
krupanut Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 492 Austin Texas	Posted on May 17 2006 12:42 PM spskins Agreed on all points Ted, well put. and I love Dennis Wilson's drumming! Wonder what the BBs records would sound like if Dennis had played on say Dance, dance, dance. It'd be a garage rock classic! It exists! Video footage of them on the TAMI show and other live appearances has Dennis totally killing the beat on that song. I think in the "Beach Boys American Band" rocumentary, they even edit different live appearances of the BBs doing Dance, Dance, Dance together and they all rip ! Of course, the chicks are screaming their heads off for our boy Dennis. Yeah I know, I meant on the records. All the live Beach Boys stuff freakin' smokes! Dennis rules on that stuff! The Tami shows Unbelievable! Have you seen the whole uncut show? The Barbarians are awesome! Gerry and the Pacemakers trading tunes with Chuck Berry! I can't imagine actually being at that concert. — The Thunderchiefs Top
krupanut Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 492 Austin Texas	Posted on May 17 2006 12:46 PM Well heck lookie what I found: All of ya'll that have'nt see Dennis go, check it out! http://youtube.com/results?search=the+TAMI+show&search_type=search_videos — The Thunderchiefs Top
MikeG Joined: Mar 29, 2006 Posts: 309 Springfield, Oregon	Posted on May 17 2006 01:33 PM I think the high-hat, used skillfully, is probably the most expressive and musical part of the drum kit. That being said, my own high-hat skills are one area of my drumming I'd really like to improve, but I don't pound the skins that often and when I do it's with a "classic rock" band. (I sing some Zappa songs) One problem (if there IS a problem) with using them in surf is that a lot of people use some really loud and "trashy" sounding hats that are better suited to rock. I've found that a light top and a med/heavy bottom works pretty well for the surf stuff. Just my 2 cents worth. Top
Klas Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 2293 Stockholm, Sweden	Posted on May 17 2006 01:34 PM krupanut The Tami shows Unbelievable! Have you seen the whole uncut show? The Barbarians are awesome! Yeah! Some time ago I showed the Barbarians performance for a friend. He refused to believe it was shot in 1964 after seeing the wild long-haired close-ups of Moulty pounding the drums! The whole show is totally great including the awesome J & D opening credits! — T H E ✠ S U R F I T E S Top

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