Here's a subject my friend and I were discussing last weekend while musiking.

For those of you who regularly call out chord progressions by the numbering system--let's keep it simple and say you're playing a 50's rock n' roller that's a I-IV-V in the key of C major--what do you do when you're playing something of similar structure but in a minor key? For instance, say you're playing something like Bullwinkle pt 1 or 2. Do you call it a I-IV-V in A minor? Or do you retain the numbering convention of its relative major and say it's a VI-II-III in A minor and people have to know that the I is assumed to be the relative major?

It seems like if you make the numbering system mutable so that the I is always the root of that key, be it aeolian, dorian, or whatever, then that's a lot of memorization of different numbering sequences, whereas if you always keep the I as the relative major of your key, then you always know what chord each number is automatically and actually, you could get by without even being aware of the whole modal thing. Like if you were describing an A dorian song to someone who didn't know what that was, you could just say it's a II-I-IV-III in G major.

Thoughts?

Last edited: Aug 09, 2017 23:26:39

I agree that the key is the key. I wasn't trying to say that one shouldn't recognize the true flavor of the song and just try to call everything by its major "equivalent." And I agree with you--I think the numbers should adjust to the actual key. So a I-IV-V in A dorian might actually be written i-IV-v and the player just needs to understand that he/she is playing the ii-V-iv of G major. So... that's a lot of memorization I need to get started on.

Quick! What's the 3rd chord of the locrian scale? And so on...

Simoncoil, the guitar has the convenient characteristic of being easy to transpose keys on by the simple motion of moving up or down the board so getting the numbering system down makes it really easy to call out a progression and then put it in whatever key you or the singer or the lights guy wants on the fly-- "Guys, it's a 1-4-5 in G major" --without needing to sit there and figure out what all the chords are. It just makes it easy to convey the structure of a song in a way that is easily translated to any key. Of course it works the same regardless of the instrument but it's just nice that the guitar is so conducive to key flexibility. As opposed to a piano, for instance, where each key is a different combination of whites/blacks that must be learned.

Last edited: Aug 11, 2017 14:16:58

simoncoil wrote:

Readfeather wrote:

So... that's a lot of memorization I need to get started on.

Excuse my ignorance, but considering the need for memorization, where do you (and the others) see the advantage of chord numbering over just writing out the chord sequences?

When a minor scale is rendered as an harmonic minor, the chord at the fifth degree becomes a standard dominant 7th and I see it as being s key unto itself. So I would consider its chords to be numbered from the root of the minor.

Numbering chords has helped me with regard to memorization. Now, instead of remembering specific chords, I can take note of a pattern and remember, not the song, but the way the song is structured. This comes in especially handy when the song winds its way through different tone centers which may involve both Major and minor key passages. At least for me, the number system made music easier and more comprehensible.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

synchro wrote:

simoncoil wrote:

Readfeather wrote:

So... that's a lot of memorization I need to get started on.

Excuse my ignorance, but considering the need for memorization, where do you (and the others) see the advantage of chord numbering over just writing out the chord sequences?

When a minor scale is rendered as an harmonic minor, the chord at the fifth degree becomes a standard dominant 7th and I see it as being s key unto itself. So I would consider its chords to be numbered from the root of the minor.

Actually, that is a good point is regards to Bullwinkle Part II. I believe in that song the G# chord shifts between minor and Major like a v to a V for the change to the melody. I could be wrong, but that is how it is notated on the sheet music I have for that song.

Last edited: Dec 15, 2017 13:03:58

TheBeachCruzers wrote:

synchro wrote:

simoncoil wrote:

Readfeather wrote:

So... that's a lot of memorization I need to get started on.

Excuse my ignorance, but considering the need for memorization, where do you (and the others) see the advantage of chord numbering over just writing out the chord sequences?

When a minor scale is rendered as an harmonic minor, the chord at the fifth degree becomes a standard dominant 7th and I see it as being s key unto itself. So I would consider its chords to be numbered from the root of the minor.

Actually, that is a good point is regards to Bullwinkle Part II. I believe in that song the G# chord shifts between minor and Major like a v to a V for the change to the melody. I could be wrong, but that is how it is notated on the sheet music I have for that song.

I just listened to it and it sounded like a straightforward 12 bar Blues in a natural minor key, which means that the I, IV and V chords are all minors.

Even with modal songs, the numbering convention works. Think of Spooky by the. Classics IV/Atlanta Rhythm Section. The chords are Em7 to A13 with a Bb diminished as a passing chord and then each verse ends in a Bm7. It could all be in D Major, but if you think of it as E Dorian the chords become I, IV, and with a passing tone diminished between the IV and the V. It doesn’t change how you play it, but it helps to define the feel, when you look at it as modal.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

synchro wrote:

Inadvertent multiple post.

Did they make grass legal in AZ too?

mj
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The number system sure is handy and I do think that it's important to learn the conventional method of usage regarding root key etc.
I was resistant to learning it before moving to Nashville as I was brought up in the standard method of notation and chord charts but the number system has saved my ass many times.
I've had to learn a lot of music last minute, on airplanes, with no guitar in hand and not being aware of the actual key but the number system allowed me to chart the songs so that once I knew the key all else fell into place.

Cheers,
Jeff

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