Menu
I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson first. The
general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat trem needs special
supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order for it to
be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just "work" out of the box.
Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally accepted
idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that friction on the 6
pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and the
side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't give the
strings a consistent zero return point. If the vintage Fender trem was
half as good as you say, Floyd Rose would have been out of business 25
years ago. Most elements of the original Strat design are timeless;
unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.
I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to Custom Shop
beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out of tune
with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a Strat right off the
dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the tuning after
testing the trem.
Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins hands
down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a competent luthier can
setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged, nice-looking, and
actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is for people to
simply try it.
--- In , "red_thundr" <red_thundr@y...>
wrote:
>
> I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson first.
I will, if I get a chance.
> The
> general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat trem needs special
> supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order for it to
> be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just "work" out of the
box.
> Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally accepted
> idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that friction on the 6
> pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and the
> side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't give the
> strings a consistent zero return point.
Cause people use thin strings and don't set it up right. Oh, and
they dive-bomb with it and pretend they're EVH or Brad Gillis, which
is not what it was designed to do. Again, I said that it works really
well for SURF MUSIC, meaning adding true vibrato, whether gentle or
heavy-handed, rather than making airplane and Ferrari noises with.
Incidentally, Hendrix, Van Halen, and Jeff Beck did much if not all
of their whammy abuse on vintage style units... I even read an
interview with EVH where he said he prefers the tone of the vintage
Strat unit, but obviously a Floyd Rose stays in tune better for what
he does.
> If the vintage Fender trem was half as good as you say,
I'm telling you what my experience with it is - why would I
exaggerate?
> Floyd Rose would have been out of business > 25 years ago.
Well, Kahler is. And how many new guitars do you see with real Floyd
Rose units? Maybe Jackson and ESP, but not many more. I don't think
that Fender has one standard model with a real Floyd Rose on it
anymore (they have a Mexican or Korean model with a Floyd Rose copy),
while the vintage unit is still found on the great majority of their
(and many other manufacturers') guitars. Floyd Rose trems are a pain
in the ass. They're hard to adjust for intonation, changing strings
is a pain in the ass, and locking and unlocking the nut and having
the right wrench is just really inconvenient.
> Most elements of the original Strat design are timeless;
> unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.
I couldn't disagree more. I believe it's one of Leo Fender's major
claims to fame.
> I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to Custom
Shop
> beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out of tune
> with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a Strat right off
the
> dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the tuning after
> testing the trem.
Cause most of them leave the factory with 9-gauge strings and poor
setups.
> Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins hands
> down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a competent luthier can
> setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged, nice-looking, and
> actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is for people to
> simply try it.
No problem. All Strat players should go ahead and try it. If I
lived close any kind of a guitar store (the nearest - crappy - one is
45 miles away, a good one is some 70 miles away, and I rarely get to
go there), I would. But my opinion is that the vintage Strat tremolo
rules.
Ivan
Come on Red,
Your overstating problems of the 9 gage dive bomb crowd. We're surf guitarists
here. We use 13's and maybe a quarter to half step depression on the bar. It's
not worth spending extra bucks to get minuscule if any improvement in vibrato
operation for our style of playing. I currently have 3 Strats that get regular
use. The trems work beautiflly. If it works, don't fix it.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Mighty Mite Trem (Wilkinson)
I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson first. The
general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat trem needs special
supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order for it to
be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just "work" out of the box.
Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally accepted
idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that friction on the 6
pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and the
side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't give the
strings a consistent zero return point. If the vintage Fender trem was
half as good as you say, Floyd Rose would have been out of business 25
years ago. Most elements of the original Strat design are timeless;
unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.
I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to Custom Shop
beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out of tune
with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a Strat right off the
dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the tuning after
testing the trem.
Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins hands
down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a competent luthier can
setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged, nice-looking, and
actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is for people to
simply try it.
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We can simply agree to disagree.
Hendrix was notorious for being out of tune (I can hardly stomach his
live performances merely on that fact.) Jeff Beck and others need
massive adjustments and tweeks to make their stock Fender units
livable. Van Halen simply gave up on the stock Fender unit and found
something better, and in doing so rewrote the book on what you could
do with a tremolo.
My Stratocaster is not a one-trick-pony, and I demand that it have
flexibility, versatility, and reliability. The Wilkinson tremolo
plays a big part in that equation, and if I can spread the good word
on something I found, I'm gonna do it. You won't be able to convince
me that the stock Fender tremolos are anything more than cantankerous
hunks of junk that are better left unused. My time is better spent
making good music than nursemaiding a device that has been vastly
surpassed by far more elegant and usable solutions.
Consider yourself extremely fortunate to have a workable stock Fender
trem; for it's only due to luck and not by design. My case is the
opposite: I have a great trem that's usable by design, not by luck.
The stock Fender trem will never shed its quirky reputation for
needing special setups, special strings, and a wing and a prayer when
you really need to count on it.
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
>
> --- In , "red_thundr"
<red_thundr@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson first.
>
> I will, if I get a chance.
>
> > The
> > general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat trem needs special
> > supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order for it
to
> > be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just "work" out of the
> box.
> > Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally accepted
> > idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that friction on the 6
> > pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and the
> > side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't give
the
> > strings a consistent zero return point.
>
> Cause people use thin strings and don't set it up right. Oh, and
> they dive-bomb with it and pretend they're EVH or Brad Gillis,
which
> is not what it was designed to do. Again, I said that it works
really
> well for SURF MUSIC, meaning adding true vibrato, whether gentle or
> heavy-handed, rather than making airplane and Ferrari noises with.
> Incidentally, Hendrix, Van Halen, and Jeff Beck did much if not all
> of their whammy abuse on vintage style units... I even read an
> interview with EVH where he said he prefers the tone of the vintage
> Strat unit, but obviously a Floyd Rose stays in tune better for
what
> he does.
>
> > If the vintage Fender trem was half as good as you say,
>
> I'm telling you what my experience with it is - why would I
> exaggerate?
>
> > Floyd Rose would have been out of business > 25 years ago.
>
> Well, Kahler is. And how many new guitars do you see with real
Floyd
> Rose units? Maybe Jackson and ESP, but not many more. I don't
think
> that Fender has one standard model with a real Floyd Rose on it
> anymore (they have a Mexican or Korean model with a Floyd Rose
copy),
> while the vintage unit is still found on the great majority of
their
> (and many other manufacturers') guitars. Floyd Rose trems are a
pain
> in the ass. They're hard to adjust for intonation, changing
strings
> is a pain in the ass, and locking and unlocking the nut and having
> the right wrench is just really inconvenient.
>
> > Most elements of the original Strat design are timeless;
> > unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.
>
> I couldn't disagree more. I believe it's one of Leo Fender's major
> claims to fame.
>
> > I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to Custom
> Shop
> > beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out of
tune
> > with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a Strat right
off
> the
> > dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the tuning
after
> > testing the trem.
>
> Cause most of them leave the factory with 9-gauge strings and poor
> setups.
>
> > Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins hands
> > down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a competent luthier
can
> > setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged, nice-looking, and
> > actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is for people to
> > simply try it.
>
> No problem. All Strat players should go ahead and try it. If I
> lived close any kind of a guitar store (the nearest - crappy - one
is
> 45 miles away, a good one is some 70 miles away, and I rarely get
to
> go there), I would. But my opinion is that the vintage Strat
tremolo
> rules.
>
> Ivan
I've got three Strats with vintage trems, and they all work equally
well, without special strings and special setups, and certainly with
no "nursemaiding" (I rarely give it a second's thought). And I
believe I've made some good music with the use of this "cantankerous
hunks of junk". Just what the hell do you do with your tremolos??
--- In , "red_thundr" <red_thundr@y...>
wrote:
>
> We can simply agree to disagree.
>
> Hendrix was notorious for being out of tune (I can hardly stomach
his
> live performances merely on that fact.) Jeff Beck and others need
> massive adjustments and tweeks to make their stock Fender units
> livable. Van Halen simply gave up on the stock Fender unit and
found
> something better, and in doing so rewrote the book on what you could
> do with a tremolo.
>
> My Stratocaster is not a one-trick-pony, and I demand that it have
> flexibility, versatility, and reliability. The Wilkinson tremolo
> plays a big part in that equation, and if I can spread the good word
> on something I found, I'm gonna do it. You won't be able to
convince
> me that the stock Fender tremolos are anything more than
cantankerous
> hunks of junk that are better left unused. My time is better spent
> making good music than nursemaiding a device that has been vastly
> surpassed by far more elegant and usable solutions.
>
> Consider yourself extremely fortunate to have a workable stock
Fender
> trem; for it's only due to luck and not by design. My case is the
> opposite: I have a great trem that's usable by design, not by luck.
> The stock Fender trem will never shed its quirky reputation for
> needing special setups, special strings, and a wing and a prayer
when
> you really need to count on it.
>
>
> --- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , "red_thundr"
> <red_thundr@y...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson first.
> >
> > I will, if I get a chance.
> >
> > > The
> > > general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat trem needs special
> > > supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order for
it
> to
> > > be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just "work" out of
the
> > box.
> > > Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally accepted
> > > idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that friction on
the 6
> > > pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and the
> > > side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't give
> the
> > > strings a consistent zero return point.
> >
> > Cause people use thin strings and don't set it up right. Oh, and
> > they dive-bomb with it and pretend they're EVH or Brad Gillis,
> which
> > is not what it was designed to do. Again, I said that it works
> really
> > well for SURF MUSIC, meaning adding true vibrato, whether gentle
or
> > heavy-handed, rather than making airplane and Ferrari noises
with.
> > Incidentally, Hendrix, Van Halen, and Jeff Beck did much if not
all
> > of their whammy abuse on vintage style units... I even read an
> > interview with EVH where he said he prefers the tone of the
vintage
> > Strat unit, but obviously a Floyd Rose stays in tune better for
> what
> > he does.
> >
> > > If the vintage Fender trem was half as good as you say,
> >
> > I'm telling you what my experience with it is - why would I
> > exaggerate?
> >
> > > Floyd Rose would have been out of business > 25 years ago.
> >
> > Well, Kahler is. And how many new guitars do you see with real
> Floyd
> > Rose units? Maybe Jackson and ESP, but not many more. I don't
> think
> > that Fender has one standard model with a real Floyd Rose on it
> > anymore (they have a Mexican or Korean model with a Floyd Rose
> copy),
> > while the vintage unit is still found on the great majority of
> their
> > (and many other manufacturers') guitars. Floyd Rose trems are a
> pain
> > in the ass. They're hard to adjust for intonation, changing
> strings
> > is a pain in the ass, and locking and unlocking the nut and
having
> > the right wrench is just really inconvenient.
> >
> > > Most elements of the original Strat design are timeless;
> > > unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.
> >
> > I couldn't disagree more. I believe it's one of Leo Fender's
major
> > claims to fame.
> >
> > > I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to
Custom
> > Shop
> > > beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out of
> tune
> > > with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a Strat right
> off
> > the
> > > dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the tuning
> after
> > > testing the trem.
> >
> > Cause most of them leave the factory with 9-gauge strings and
poor
> > setups.
> >
> > > Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins
hands
> > > down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a competent luthier
> can
> > > setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged, nice-looking,
and
> > > actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is for people
to
> > > simply try it.
> >
> > No problem. All Strat players should go ahead and try it. If I
> > lived close any kind of a guitar store (the nearest - crappy - one
> is
> > 45 miles away, a good one is some 70 miles away, and I rarely get
> to
> > go there), I would. But my opinion is that the vintage Strat
> tremolo
> > rules.
> >
> > Ivan
I think we're actually agreeing, Red.
As you say, you want your strat(s) to be versatile. I'm guessing this means that
you may still want to play a Hendrix or Yngwie number in between your Pipelines
and Penetrations. I certainly agree that a standard strat trem ain't the best
for that kinda versatility. And no doubt about it, Hendrix woulda had it easier
with a Floyd Rose (but I actually like the imperfections and the beautiful way
he worked around 'em).
The three strats that I've been playing really are one trick ponys and that's
the way I want 'em. They're intended for surf and surf only. Yep, for that
standard trem to work best does require special strings, heavy mo-fos. If I'm
gonna play a different style, I use a different guitar.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:26 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Mighty Mite Trem (Wilkinson)
We can simply agree to disagree.
Hendrix was notorious for being out of tune (I can hardly stomach his
live performances merely on that fact.) Jeff Beck and others need
massive adjustments and tweeks to make their stock Fender units
livable. Van Halen simply gave up on the stock Fender unit and found
something better, and in doing so rewrote the book on what you could
do with a tremolo.
My Stratocaster is not a one-trick-pony, and I demand that it have
flexibility, versatility, and reliability. The Wilkinson tremolo
plays a big part in that equation, and if I can spread the good word
on something I found, I'm gonna do it. You won't be able to convince
me that the stock Fender tremolos are anything more than cantankerous
hunks of junk that are better left unused. My time is better spent
making good music than nursemaiding a device that has been vastly
surpassed by far more elegant and usable solutions.
Consider yourself extremely fortunate to have a workable stock Fender
trem; for it's only due to luck and not by design. My case is the
opposite: I have a great trem that's usable by design, not by luck.
The stock Fender trem will never shed its quirky reputation for
needing special setups, special strings, and a wing and a prayer when
you really need to count on it.
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
>
> --- In , "red_thundr"
<red_thundr@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson first.
>
> I will, if I get a chance.
>
> > The
> > general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat trem needs special
> > supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order for it
to
> > be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just "work" out of the
> box.
> > Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally accepted
> > idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that friction on the 6
> > pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and the
> > side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't give
the
> > strings a consistent zero return point.
>
> Cause people use thin strings and don't set it up right. Oh, and
> they dive-bomb with it and pretend they're EVH or Brad Gillis,
which
> is not what it was designed to do. Again, I said that it works
really
> well for SURF MUSIC, meaning adding true vibrato, whether gentle or
> heavy-handed, rather than making airplane and Ferrari noises with.
> Incidentally, Hendrix, Van Halen, and Jeff Beck did much if not all
> of their whammy abuse on vintage style units... I even read an
> interview with EVH where he said he prefers the tone of the vintage
> Strat unit, but obviously a Floyd Rose stays in tune better for
what
> he does.
>
> > If the vintage Fender trem was half as good as you say,
>
> I'm telling you what my experience with it is - why would I
> exaggerate?
>
> > Floyd Rose would have been out of business > 25 years ago.
>
> Well, Kahler is. And how many new guitars do you see with real
Floyd
> Rose units? Maybe Jackson and ESP, but not many more. I don't
think
> that Fender has one standard model with a real Floyd Rose on it
> anymore (they have a Mexican or Korean model with a Floyd Rose
copy),
> while the vintage unit is still found on the great majority of
their
> (and many other manufacturers') guitars. Floyd Rose trems are a
pain
> in the ass. They're hard to adjust for intonation, changing
strings
> is a pain in the ass, and locking and unlocking the nut and having
> the right wrench is just really inconvenient.
>
> > Most elements of the original Strat design are timeless;
> > unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.
>
> I couldn't disagree more. I believe it's one of Leo Fender's major
> claims to fame.
>
> > I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to Custom
> Shop
> > beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out of
tune
> > with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a Strat right
off
> the
> > dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the tuning
after
> > testing the trem.
>
> Cause most of them leave the factory with 9-gauge strings and poor
> setups.
>
> > Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins hands
> > down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a competent luthier
can
> > setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged, nice-looking, and
> > actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is for people to
> > simply try it.
>
> No problem. All Strat players should go ahead and try it. If I
> lived close any kind of a guitar store (the nearest - crappy - one
is
> 45 miles away, a good one is some 70 miles away, and I rarely get
to
> go there), I would. But my opinion is that the vintage Strat
tremolo
> rules.
>
> Ivan
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dive bombs Ivan. I don't recall you being out of tune when I saw
you play, and yeah you've made some great music with those "vintage
trems." I wonder what "F.B.I" would sounded like with a few dive
bombs thrown in :)
Bill
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
>
> I've got three Strats with vintage trems, and they all work
equally
> well, without special strings and special setups, and certainly
with
> no "nursemaiding" (I rarely give it a second's thought). And I
> believe I've made some good music with the use of
this "cantankerous
> hunks of junk". Just what the hell do you do with your
tremolos??
>
>
> --- In , "red_thundr"
<red_thundr@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > We can simply agree to disagree.
> >
> > Hendrix was notorious for being out of tune (I can hardly
stomach
> his
> > live performances merely on that fact.) Jeff Beck and others
need
> > massive adjustments and tweeks to make their stock Fender units
> > livable. Van Halen simply gave up on the stock Fender unit and
> found
> > something better, and in doing so rewrote the book on what you
could
> > do with a tremolo.
> >
> > My Stratocaster is not a one-trick-pony, and I demand that it
have
> > flexibility, versatility, and reliability. The Wilkinson tremolo
> > plays a big part in that equation, and if I can spread the good
word
> > on something I found, I'm gonna do it. You won't be able to
> convince
> > me that the stock Fender tremolos are anything more than
> cantankerous
> > hunks of junk that are better left unused. My time is better
spent
> > making good music than nursemaiding a device that has been vastly
> > surpassed by far more elegant and usable solutions.
> >
> > Consider yourself extremely fortunate to have a workable stock
> Fender
> > trem; for it's only due to luck and not by design. My case is
the
> > opposite: I have a great trem that's usable by design, not by
luck.
> > The stock Fender trem will never shed its quirky reputation for
> > needing special setups, special strings, and a wing and a prayer
> when
> > you really need to count on it.
> >
> >
> > --- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In , "red_thundr"
> > <red_thundr@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson
first.
> > >
> > > I will, if I get a chance.
> > >
> > > > The
> > > > general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat trem needs
special
> > > > supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order
for
> it
> > to
> > > > be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just "work" out of
> the
> > > box.
> > > > Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally
accepted
> > > > idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that friction on
> the 6
> > > > pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and the
> > > > side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't
give
> > the
> > > > strings a consistent zero return point.
> > >
> > > Cause people use thin strings and don't set it up right. Oh,
and
> > > they dive-bomb with it and pretend they're EVH or Brad Gillis,
> > which
> > > is not what it was designed to do. Again, I said that it works
> > really
> > > well for SURF MUSIC, meaning adding true vibrato, whether
gentle
> or
> > > heavy-handed, rather than making airplane and Ferrari noises
> with.
> > > Incidentally, Hendrix, Van Halen, and Jeff Beck did much if
not
> all
> > > of their whammy abuse on vintage style units... I even read
an
> > > interview with EVH where he said he prefers the tone of the
> vintage
> > > Strat unit, but obviously a Floyd Rose stays in tune better for
> > what
> > > he does.
> > >
> > > > If the vintage Fender trem was half as good as you say,
> > >
> > > I'm telling you what my experience with it is - why would I
> > > exaggerate?
> > >
> > > > Floyd Rose would have been out of business > 25 years ago.
> > >
> > > Well, Kahler is. And how many new guitars do you see with real
> > Floyd
> > > Rose units? Maybe Jackson and ESP, but not many more. I don't
> > think
> > > that Fender has one standard model with a real Floyd Rose on
it
> > > anymore (they have a Mexican or Korean model with a Floyd Rose
> > copy),
> > > while the vintage unit is still found on the great majority of
> > their
> > > (and many other manufacturers') guitars. Floyd Rose trems are
a
> > pain
> > > in the ass. They're hard to adjust for intonation, changing
> > strings
> > > is a pain in the ass, and locking and unlocking the nut and
> having
> > > the right wrench is just really inconvenient.
> > >
> > > > Most elements of the original Strat design are timeless;
> > > > unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.
> > >
> > > I couldn't disagree more. I believe it's one of Leo Fender's
> major
> > > claims to fame.
> > >
> > > > I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to
> Custom
> > > Shop
> > > > beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out
of
> > tune
> > > > with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a Strat
right
> > off
> > > the
> > > > dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the
tuning
> > after
> > > > testing the trem.
> > >
> > > Cause most of them leave the factory with 9-gauge strings and
> poor
> > > setups.
> > >
> > > > Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins
> hands
> > > > down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a competent
luthier
> > can
> > > > setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged, nice-
looking,
> and
> > > > actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is for
people
> to
> > > > simply try it.
> > >
> > > No problem. All Strat players should go ahead and try it. If
I
> > > lived close any kind of a guitar store (the nearest - crappy -
one
> > is
> > > 45 miles away, a good one is some 70 miles away, and I rarely
get
> > to
> > > go there), I would. But my opinion is that the vintage Strat
> > tremolo
> > > rules.
> > >
> > > Ivan
Absolutely Marty! If you gotta start tinkering with Leo's design, well, you
ain't really playin' surf now are ya?
B-B-O
P.S. Eddie can't play surf.
---- Marty Tippens <> wrote:
>
> <html><body>
>
>
>
> <tt>
> I think we're actually agreeing, Red. <BR>
> <BR>
> As you say, you want your strat(s) to be versatile. I'm guessing this means
that you may still want to play a Hendrix or Yngwie number in between your
Pipelines and Penetrations. I certainly agree that a standard strat trem ain't
the best for that kinda versatility. And no doubt about it, Hendrix woulda had
it easier with a Floyd Rose (but I actually like the imperfections and the
beautiful way he worked around 'em). <BR>
> <BR>
> The three strats that I've been playing really are one trick ponys and that's
the way I want 'em. They're intended for surf and surf only. Yep, for that
standard trem to work best does require special strings, heavy mo-fos. If
I'm gonna play a different style, I use a different guitar. <BR>
> -Marty<BR>
> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
> From: red_thundr <BR>
> To: <BR>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:26 PM<BR>
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Mighty Mite Trem (Wilkinson)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> We can simply agree to disagree.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hendrix was notorious for being out of tune (I can hardly stomach
his<BR>
> live performances merely on that fact.) Jeff Beck and others
need<BR>
> massive adjustments and tweeks to make their stock Fender units<BR>
> livable. Van Halen simply gave up on the stock Fender unit and
found<BR>
> something better, and in doing so rewrote the book on what you
could<BR>
> do with a tremolo.<BR>
> <BR>
> My Stratocaster is not a one-trick-pony, and I demand that it have<BR>
> flexibility, versatility, and reliability. The Wilkinson
tremolo<BR>
> plays a big part in that equation, and if I can spread the good
word<BR>
> on something I found, I'm gonna do it. You won't be able to
convince<BR>
> me that the stock Fender tremolos are anything more than
cantankerous<BR>
> hunks of junk that are better left unused. My time is better
spent<BR>
> making good music than nursemaiding a device that has been vastly<BR>
> surpassed by far more elegant and usable solutions.<BR>
> <BR>
> Consider yourself extremely fortunate to have a workable stock
Fender<BR>
> trem; for it's only due to luck and not by design. My case is
the<BR>
> opposite: I have a great trem that's usable by design, not by luck.
<BR>
> The stock Fender trem will never shed its quirky reputation for<BR>
> needing special setups, special strings, and a wing and a prayer
when<BR>
> you really need to count on it.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> --- In , "ipongrac"
<ipongrac@g...><BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > --- In , "red_thundr"<BR>
> <red_thundr@y...> <BR>
> > wrote:<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > > I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson
first. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > I will, if I get a chance. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > > The<BR>
> > > general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat trem
needs special<BR>
> > > supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order
for it<BR>
> to<BR>
> > > be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just
"work" out of the <BR>
> > box.<BR>
> > > Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally
accepted<BR>
> > > idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that
friction on the 6<BR>
> > > pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and
the<BR>
> > > side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't
give<BR>
> the<BR>
> > > strings a consistent zero return point. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Cause people use thin strings and don't set it up right. Oh,
and <BR>
> > they dive-bomb with it and pretend they're EVH or Brad Gillis,<BR>
> which <BR>
> > is not what it was designed to do. Again, I said that it works<BR>
> really <BR>
> > well for SURF MUSIC, meaning adding true vibrato, whether gentle
or <BR>
> > heavy-handed, rather than making airplane and Ferrari noises
with. <BR>
> > Incidentally, Hendrix, Van Halen, and Jeff Beck did much if not
all <BR>
> > of their whammy abuse on vintage style units... I even read
an <BR>
> > interview with EVH where he said he prefers the tone of the
vintage <BR>
> > Strat unit, but obviously a Floyd Rose stays in tune better
for<BR>
> what <BR>
> > he does. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > > If the vintage Fender trem was half as good as you say, <BR>
> > <BR>
> > I'm telling you what my experience with it is - why would I <BR>
> > exaggerate?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Floyd Rose would have been out of business > 25 years
ago. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Well, Kahler is. And how many new guitars do you see with
real<BR>
> Floyd <BR>
> > Rose units? Maybe Jackson and ESP, but not many more.
I don't<BR>
> think <BR>
> > that Fender has one standard model with a real Floyd Rose on it
<BR>
> > anymore (they have a Mexican or Korean model with a Floyd Rose<BR>
> copy), <BR>
> > while the vintage unit is still found on the great majority of<BR>
> their <BR>
> > (and many other manufacturers') guitars. Floyd Rose trems
are a<BR>
> pain <BR>
> > in the ass. They're hard to adjust for intonation,
changing<BR>
> strings <BR>
> > is a pain in the ass, and locking and unlocking the nut and having
<BR>
> > the right wrench is just really inconvenient.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Most elements of the original Strat design are timeless;<BR>
> > > unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I couldn't disagree more. I believe it's one of Leo Fender's
major <BR>
> > claims to fame. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > > I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to
Custom <BR>
> > Shop<BR>
> > > beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out
of<BR>
> tune<BR>
> > > with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a Strat
right<BR>
> off <BR>
> > the<BR>
> > > dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the
tuning<BR>
> after<BR>
> > > testing the trem.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Cause most of them leave the factory with 9-gauge strings and poor
<BR>
> > setups. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins
hands<BR>
> > > down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a competent
luthier<BR>
> can<BR>
> > > setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged,
nice-looking, and<BR>
> > > actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is for
people to<BR>
> > > simply try it.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > No problem. All Strat players should go ahead and try
it. If I <BR>
> > lived close any kind of a guitar store (the nearest - crappy -
one<BR>
> is <BR>
> > 45 miles away, a good one is some 70 miles away, and I rarely
get<BR>
> to <BR>
> > go there), I would. But my opinion is that the vintage
Strat<BR>
> tremolo <BR>
> > rules. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Ivan<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> .<BR>
> Visit <a
href=""></a> for archived messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>
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>
Yeah, that about sums it up, Billy. Leo designed that "tremelo" system to
replicate Hawaiian steel sounds for Country players, a technique that doesn't
require dive bombing. They were using heavy strings in those mid 50's days as
well, so I think it was a good design.
-MT
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Cc:
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Mighty Mite Trem (Wilkinson)
Absolutely Marty! If you gotta start tinkering with Leo's design, well, you
ain't really playin' surf now are ya?
B-B-O
P.S. Eddie can't play surf.
---- Marty Tippens <> wrote:
>
> <html><body>
>
>
>
> <tt>
> I think we're actually agreeing, Red. <BR>
> <BR>
> As you say, you want your strat(s) to be versatile. I'm guessing this means
that you may still want to play a Hendrix or Yngwie number in between your
Pipelines and Penetrations. I certainly agree that a standard strat trem ain't
the best for that kinda versatility. And no doubt about it, Hendrix woulda had
it easier with a Floyd Rose (but I actually like the imperfections and the
beautiful way he worked around 'em). <BR>
> <BR>
> The three strats that I've been playing really are one trick ponys and
that's the way I want 'em. They're intended for surf and surf only. Yep, for
that standard trem to work best does require special strings, heavy
mo-fos. If I'm gonna play a different style, I use a different
guitar. <BR>
> -Marty<BR>
> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
> From: red_thundr <BR>
> To: <BR>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:26 PM<BR>
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Mighty Mite Trem (Wilkinson)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> We can simply agree to disagree.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hendrix was notorious for being out of tune (I can hardly stomach
his<BR>
> live performances merely on that fact.) Jeff Beck and others
need<BR>
> massive adjustments and tweeks to make their stock Fender units<BR>
> livable. Van Halen simply gave up on the stock Fender unit and
found<BR>
> something better, and in doing so rewrote the book on what you
could<BR>
> do with a tremolo.<BR>
> <BR>
> My Stratocaster is not a one-trick-pony, and I demand that it
have<BR>
> flexibility, versatility, and reliability. The Wilkinson
tremolo<BR>
> plays a big part in that equation, and if I can spread the good
word<BR>
> on something I found, I'm gonna do it. You won't be able to
convince<BR>
> me that the stock Fender tremolos are anything more than
cantankerous<BR>
> hunks of junk that are better left unused. My time is better
spent<BR>
> making good music than nursemaiding a device that has been vastly<BR>
> surpassed by far more elegant and usable solutions.<BR>
> <BR>
> Consider yourself extremely fortunate to have a workable stock
Fender<BR>
> trem; for it's only due to luck and not by design. My case is
the<BR>
> opposite: I have a great trem that's usable by design, not by luck.
<BR>
> The stock Fender trem will never shed its quirky reputation for<BR>
> needing special setups, special strings, and a wing and a prayer
when<BR>
> you really need to count on it.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> --- In , "ipongrac"
<ipongrac@g...><BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > --- In , "red_thundr"<BR>
> <red_thundr@y...> <BR>
> > wrote:<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > > I'd only have to add that you need to try a Wilkinson
first. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > I will, if I get a chance. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > > The<BR>
> > > general consensus is that the "vintage" Strat
trem needs special<BR>
> > > supporting setup mods and inordinate care applied in order
for it<BR>
> to<BR>
> > > be somewhat stable and usable; it doesn't just
"work" out of the <BR>
> > box.<BR>
> > > Tuning problems are a well-documented and universally
accepted<BR>
> > > idiosyncrasy of the stock Fender unit. All that
friction on the 6<BR>
> > > pivot screws doesn't bode well for tuning stability, and
the<BR>
> > > side-to-side shifting of the spring-loaded saddles doesn't
give<BR>
> the<BR>
> > > strings a consistent zero return point. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Cause people use thin strings and don't set it up right.
Oh, and <BR>
> > they dive-bomb with it and pretend they're EVH or Brad
Gillis,<BR>
> which <BR>
> > is not what it was designed to do. Again, I said that it
works<BR>
> really <BR>
> > well for SURF MUSIC, meaning adding true vibrato, whether gentle
or <BR>
> > heavy-handed, rather than making airplane and Ferrari noises
with. <BR>
> > Incidentally, Hendrix, Van Halen, and Jeff Beck did much if not
all <BR>
> > of their whammy abuse on vintage style units... I even
read an <BR>
> > interview with EVH where he said he prefers the tone of the
vintage <BR>
> > Strat unit, but obviously a Floyd Rose stays in tune better
for<BR>
> what <BR>
> > he does. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > > If the vintage Fender trem was half as good as you say,
<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I'm telling you what my experience with it is - why would I <BR>
> > exaggerate?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Floyd Rose would have been out of business > 25 years
ago. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Well, Kahler is. And how many new guitars do you see with
real<BR>
> Floyd <BR>
> > Rose units? Maybe Jackson and ESP, but not many
more. I don't<BR>
> think <BR>
> > that Fender has one standard model with a real Floyd Rose on it
<BR>
> > anymore (they have a Mexican or Korean model with a Floyd
Rose<BR>
> copy), <BR>
> > while the vintage unit is still found on the great majority
of<BR>
> their <BR>
> > (and many other manufacturers') guitars. Floyd Rose trems
are a<BR>
> pain <BR>
> > in the ass. They're hard to adjust for intonation,
changing<BR>
> strings <BR>
> > is a pain in the ass, and locking and unlocking the nut and
having <BR>
> > the right wrench is just really inconvenient.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Most elements of the original Strat design are
timeless;<BR>
> > > unfortunately, the trem isn't one of them.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I couldn't disagree more. I believe it's one of Leo
Fender's major <BR>
> > claims to fame. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > > I've played a gazillion Strats, from Mexis all the way to
Custom <BR>
> > Shop<BR>
> > > beauties, and 95% of them with the stock trem have gone out
of<BR>
> tune<BR>
> > > with mild use. And frankly, I've yet to pick up a
Strat right<BR>
> off <BR>
> > the<BR>
> > > dealer's wall that didn't have a major problem with the
tuning<BR>
> after<BR>
> > > testing the trem.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Cause most of them leave the factory with 9-gauge strings and
poor <BR>
> > setups. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Bang for the buck, I believe the Wilkinson upgrade mod wins
hands<BR>
> > > down. It's an inexpensive drop-in mod that a
competent luthier<BR>
> can<BR>
> > > setup with ease. It's not finicky, it's rugged,
nice-looking, and<BR>
> > > actually benefits the sustain. My recommendation is
for people to<BR>
> > > simply try it.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > No problem. All Strat players should go ahead and try
it. If I <BR>
> > lived close any kind of a guitar store (the nearest - crappy -
one<BR>
> is <BR>
> > 45 miles away, a good one is some 70 miles away, and I rarely
get<BR>
> to <BR>
> > go there), I would. But my opinion is that the vintage
Strat<BR>
> tremolo <BR>
> > rules. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Ivan<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> .<BR>
> Visit <a
href=""></a> for archived messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<B\
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
>
> I've got three Strats with vintage trems, and they all work equally
> well, without special strings and special setups,
That's not what you said, you said:
>>> I had a good tech, who knew how to cut the nut
>>> (ouch!) properly,
and certainly with
> no "nursemaiding" (I rarely give it a second's thought). And I
> believe I've made some good music with the use of this "cantankerous
> hunks of junk". Just what the hell do you do with your tremolos??
>
By your own admission, even you can't get the stock Fender to work
without additional special mods.
Maybe you are not very aggressive with the trem. I have my Wilkinson
trem setup to be floating, I do trem effects by pulling it sharp as
well as occasional divebombs and feedback wiggles. While it's not
Van Halen or Vai-type abuse, the stock Fender trem can't handle it.
Try this: put your fave strings on, tune it up, then grab the trem
and push it to the body until the strings are almost flopping, then
agitate the slack strings with your fret hand. Then pop it back and
tell me if your stock Fender is still in tune. I do this to get a
cool rumble/crash effect with distortion on, and yes, my Strat comes
back to tune.
I never said the stock Fender unit didn't _sound_ good. To my ears,
it sounds okay. Just don't ever count on it to stay in tune
reliably. The stock Fender unit is junk, and that's just a well-
known fact: it needs supporting mods and a weak touch in order to
behave. If you baby it, you likely won't have big problems, but if
you're aggressive with it, you'll be disappointed. I'm not gonna
baby my trem, it needs to handle whatever I'm going to throw at it.
--- In , "red_thundr" <red_thundr@y...>
wrote:
>
> --- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I've got three Strats with vintage trems, and they all work
equally
> > well, without special strings and special setups,
>
> That's not what you said, you said:
>
> >>> I had a good tech, who knew how to cut the nut
> >>> (ouch!) properly,
>
> By your own admission, even you can't get the stock Fender to work
> without additional special mods.
???? It's pretty sad that a well-cut nut is considered a special
mod!! C'mon, that's just silly. It's true that most nuts can be
cut better, but that is certainly NOT an 'additional mod.'
> Maybe you are not very aggressive with the trem. I have my
Wilkinson
> trem setup to be floating, I do trem effects by pulling it sharp
as
> well as occasional divebombs and feedback wiggles. While it's not
> Van Halen or Vai-type abuse, the stock Fender trem can't handle
it.
??? I'm sure I'm gonna come off as quite a closed-minded jerk, but,
my friend, whatever you may consider the music you're playing, if
these are the kind of things you're doing (divebombs, feedback
wiggles) you're not playing surf music. Not that there is anything
wrong with that. The Mermem's Jim Thomas does things like that, and
I think he's awesome, and I do like a fair amount of their music,
but I don't think they are playing surf music. They may have at one
point, but I don't think they themselves want to be associated with
it anymore, either.
> Try this: put your fave strings on, tune it up, then grab the
trem
> and push it to the body until the strings are almost flopping,
then
> agitate the slack strings with your fret hand. Then pop it back
and
> tell me if your stock Fender is still in tune.
Ummm, no. I used to do things like that when I was a teenager in
the eighties, but I have no interest in it anymore. In addition,
there's no way that even with the trem pushed all the way down that
strings will slacken enough to be 'flopping' - and that's just fine
by me.
> I do this to get a
> cool rumble/crash effect with distortion on, and yes, my Strat
> comes back to tune.
Good for you. Again, another technique that has nothing to do with
surf music.
> I never said the stock Fender unit didn't _sound_ good. To my
ears,
> it sounds okay. Just don't ever count on it to stay in tune
> reliably. The stock Fender unit is junk, and that's just a well-
> known fact: it needs supporting mods and a weak touch in order to
> behave. If you baby it, you likely won't have big problems, but
if
> you're aggressive with it, you'll be disappointed. I'm not gonna
> baby my trem, it needs to handle whatever I'm going to throw at it.
OK.
Ivan
I just now tried Red's test.
With a Mexi-Strat I have on the wall, strung with 11's, I pushed the tremelo way
down and abused the strings like the true artist that I am. When I brought the
tremelo back up, guess what? He was right, it was outta tune! BUT I plugged it
into the tuner and found that it was only the g-string that went sharp. I gave
the g-string a bend and it was back in tune. This indicates to me that the same
thing would happen if I had the Wilkinson trem because the G-was getting stuck
behind the nut.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:29 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Mighty Mite Trem (Wilkinson)
...Try this: put your fave strings on, tune it up, then grab the trem
and push it to the body until the strings are almost flopping, then
agitate the slack strings with your fret hand. Then pop it back and
tell me if your stock Fender is still in tune. I do this to get a
cool rumble/crash effect with distortion on, and yes, my Strat comes
back to tune...
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