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Is there a big difference between hand built point to point and sqeezed out of
the
factory stamped circuit boards?
Other than the obvious being able to repair a point to point board, I've been
under
the school of thought that once a stamped circuit board was burned in and
"worked"
is was good to go. If a stamped circuit was bad, you'd know right away...well
hopefully anyway.
Of course there is the "tone" issue, but I haven't researched that as much.
Except for
my current amp, I've always had older point to point wiring. So honestly, I'm
not sold
on either case about tone.
I've been checking out some different amp options and thought I'd run it by you
all.
Thanks!
Dale
PS- No formulas please :)
Yeah Dale, it would seem to me that electrons are gonna flow from point A to
point B whether they're traveling through wire or the conducting material on a
circuit board and tone is not going to be affected unless different components
are used.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: darklsurf
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:09 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Point to Point?
Is there a big difference between hand built point to point and sqeezed out of
the
factory stamped circuit boards?
Other than the obvious being able to repair a point to point board, I've been
under
the school of thought that once a stamped circuit board was burned in and
"worked"
is was good to go. If a stamped circuit was bad, you'd know right away...well
hopefully anyway.
Of course there is the "tone" issue, but I haven't researched that as much.
Except for
my current amp, I've always had older point to point wiring. So honestly, I'm
not sold
on either case about tone.
I've been checking out some different amp options and thought I'd run it by
you all.
Thanks!
Dale
PS- No formulas please :)
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yep, I don't think there's any technical reasons a PCB
couldn't be made to sound just like a PTP amp. The
biggest pros for point to point are repairability and
"modability." Both are good things if you're dealing
with an amp made in 1962; I can replace all of the
electrolytic caps in no time on a PTP/tagboard wired
amp, but I'm not sure how easy it would be on a PCB.
Here's a great little article that talks about the
pros and cons of both methods (sorry, there's a few
formulas):
Ric
--- Marty Tippens <> wrote:
> Yeah Dale, it would seem to me that electrons are
> gonna flow from point A to point B whether they're
> traveling through wire or the conducting material on
> a circuit board and tone is not going to be affected
> unless different components are used.
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: darklsurf
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:09 AM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Point to Point?
>
>
>
> Is there a big difference between hand built point
> to point and sqeezed out of the
> factory stamped circuit boards?
>
> Other than the obvious being able to repair a
> point to point board, I've been under
> the school of thought that once a stamped circuit
> board was burned in and "worked"
> is was good to go. If a stamped circuit was bad,
> you'd know right away...well
> hopefully anyway.
>
> Of course there is the "tone" issue, but I haven't
> researched that as much. Except for
> my current amp, I've always had older point to
> point wiring. So honestly, I'm not sold
> on either case about tone.
>
> I've been checking out some different amp options
> and thought I'd run it by you all.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dale
>
> PS- No formulas please :)
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit
> for archived messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> email to:
>
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
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As others mentioned, in theory, there shouldn't be a difference.
However, in real life, most modern PCB amps use the cheapest single sided
PCB, with the cheapest components, and all kind of stupid "design" ideas
like mounting tube sockets to the cheap thin PCB, which results in cracking.
They also have very cheap transformers which alos contributes to the bad
tone.
So the practical end result is that the PTP amps sound better and are more
reliable (of course old amps need servicing before they're 100% trouble
free). There are some very good PCB amps, but I think most of them are of
the British school of sound, so they don't suit the Surf guitarist.
I have 2 real life examples - one supporting my claim, and one not.
You don't have to read them to if you just wish to discuss the theoretic
difference, give out all kinds of formulas, calculate electron flow, measure
resistance in pcb tracks Vs. plastic insulated stranded wire Vs. solid core
cloth insulated wire, sit in your study hall, in a distinguished house robe,
smoke a pipe, and lecture in a British accent, etc. ; )
1. Fender Twin Reverb reissue Vs. Old Fender Twin Reverb:
Play them side by side (I have done that several times, including
eliminating the speakers/cabinet out of the comparison), and you'll notice
the difference. Witnessed horrible realiablilty problems with the Reissue
TRs (the record label we were signed to had a couple, and they had many many
problems. So much so that the Fender dealer replaced one, and the
replacement amp still wasn't reliable.)
2. Fender Reverb Unit reissue Vs. New PTP kits:
I have a PCB unit that I outfitted with NOS tubes and had the tone cap
changed. In comparison to and STB electronics kit, my unit sounded much
better. For the guy who replaced me in the band, I made up a list of the
best components to use for a "kit" including NOS tubes, as I thought it
would certainly blow away my reissue. It didn't. It sounded good, but not
anything that would really make me change out the PCB in my reissue as I
planned to do. Maybe that specific PTP unit will sound better in time, as
the components age.
Notice that you have to try to compare apples to apples, which means trying
to eliminate the differenece in components age, speakers, cabinets, tubes,
bias settings, etc. Almost impossible to practically do.
Ran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ric Flinn" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Point to Point?
>
> Yep, I don't think there's any technical reasons a PCB
> couldn't be made to sound just like a PTP amp.
While I have attempted some mathematics on this list in the past, when it comes
to what sounds better, I rely only on the acid test of blindfold A/B comparison.
Comparing equipment side by side is not a reliable indicator of which unit
sounds best IF one is aware of the particular unit that is producing the sound.
If one truely wants to know which unit has the prefered sound, the emotions of
what we expect or want to have better sound has to be taken out of the equation.
I haven't done the comparison that Ran has done with new and old Twin Reverbs. I
do have one of the new '65 reissues and haven't had reliability problems BUT I
have to admit, I haven't played it out but a handful of times. I do like the
sound.
Recently a guitar player in my band purchased on Ebay a reissue Fender reverb
tank that was delivered with two sets of tubes. Neither were the original tubes,
both sets were supposed improvements. I know that one set was NOS 6K6 and I'll
have to ask him what the other was. In our test, neither of us could hear a hair
of difference between my unaltered Fender RI tank and the Ebay purchase fitted
with upgrade tubes.
The test was done with a Morely A/B box switching the output of a Fender
Jazzmaster to both tanks. The tanks were patched to the balanced inputs of the
second channel of a vintage blond Bandmaster amp. The guitar player was not
allowed to see what unit was in play at any time. He did a series of tests
playing the same chord, single note, with the same attack, while I switched
between tanks. The guitar player is a vintage nut and is often inclined to make
boasts about equipment from "the good ol' days", but in this test he could hear
no difference at all, nor could I when we switched roles.
Now, changing the tone cap is a different thing. I have A/B'd my RI tank to two
original tanks. The only significant difference I heard was that the RI's tone
knob could produce a wider range in tone. It could bring the treble up higher.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Ran Mosessco
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Point to Point?
As others mentioned, in theory, there shouldn't be a difference.
However, in real life, most modern PCB amps use the cheapest single sided
PCB, with the cheapest components, and all kind of stupid "design" ideas
like mounting tube sockets to the cheap thin PCB, which results in cracking.
They also have very cheap transformers which alos contributes to the bad
tone.
So the practical end result is that the PTP amps sound better and are more
reliable (of course old amps need servicing before they're 100% trouble
free). There are some very good PCB amps, but I think most of them are of
the British school of sound, so they don't suit the Surf guitarist.
I have 2 real life examples - one supporting my claim, and one not.
You don't have to read them to if you just wish to discuss the theoretic
difference, give out all kinds of formulas, calculate electron flow, measure
resistance in pcb tracks Vs. plastic insulated stranded wire Vs. solid core
cloth insulated wire, sit in your study hall, in a distinguished house robe,
smoke a pipe, and lecture in a British accent, etc. ; )
1. Fender Twin Reverb reissue Vs. Old Fender Twin Reverb:
Play them side by side (I have done that several times, including
eliminating the speakers/cabinet out of the comparison), and you'll notice
the difference. Witnessed horrible realiablilty problems with the Reissue
TRs (the record label we were signed to had a couple, and they had many many
problems. So much so that the Fender dealer replaced one, and the
replacement amp still wasn't reliable.)
2. Fender Reverb Unit reissue Vs. New PTP kits:
I have a PCB unit that I outfitted with NOS tubes and had the tone cap
changed. In comparison to and STB electronics kit, my unit sounded much
better. For the guy who replaced me in the band, I made up a list of the
best components to use for a "kit" including NOS tubes, as I thought it
would certainly blow away my reissue. It didn't. It sounded good, but not
anything that would really make me change out the PCB in my reissue as I
planned to do. Maybe that specific PTP unit will sound better in time, as
the components age.
Notice that you have to try to compare apples to apples, which means trying
to eliminate the differenece in components age, speakers, cabinets, tubes,
bias settings, etc. Almost impossible to practically do.
Ran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ric Flinn" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Point to Point?
>
> Yep, I don't think there's any technical reasons a PCB
> couldn't be made to sound just like a PTP amp.
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've owned and worked on both P-T-P and circuit board amps and I'd
have to say the point-to-point stuff is more reliable and WAY easier
to fix. Printed circuit boards are great for home consumer stuff
that sits in one place, but they don't do so well with vibration,
shock, and repeated cycles of hot-cold thermal expansion/contraction--
- which is exactly what a gigging tube-based guitar amp gets. In
particular, when things like input jacks, controls, tube sockets and
large transformer connections are soldered right to the board, the
solder joints tend to develop tiny fractures around the leads that
can open up the electrical connection.
I first saw this on my '93 Fender Super Amp when it developed an
intermittent crackling sound. The amp tech showed me solder
connections that had fractured completely around the leads of several
of the larger components. He said he sees this all the time, and on
circuit board amps that get hauled around and used a lot, you
basically have to open 'em up every few years, look under high
magnification and resolder whatever's coming loose.
It might be different for solid-state amps, though. Much smaller
components and no heat from tubes. I never had a problem with my old
circuit board-based Roland JC-120 (other than its 1980's studded-dog-
collar styling and ice-pick-in-the-head tone...)
Rob Woolsey
--- In , "darklsurf" <dcordes@s...>
wrote: Is there a big difference between hand built point to point
and sqeezed out of the factory stamped circuit boards? Other than
the obvious being able to repair a point to point board, I've been
under the school of thought that once a stamped circuit board was
burned in and "worked" is was good to go. If a stamped circuit was
bad, you'd know right away...well hopefully anyway.
What Rob says makes sense to me...my old Premier amps from the 1950s remain
relatively
untouched, save for some replaced resistors, tubes and caps. And they still
sound great.
My Aims, from 1973, with a circuit board, just went into the shop. It had no end
of loose
solder connections and a disturbing tube rattle the tech simply could not fix.
Same with a
'80s Marshall JTM-60 that was so loose and frought with bad connections, it
simply wasn't
worth the money to repair.
So, the PTP amps seem to hold up better over the long-haul.
If you want to hold onto your equipment and pass it on to your kids and
grandkids, the
extra money for a PTP-wired amp might be worth the investment. If you roll over
equipment every few years, a modern circuit-board tube amp may prove less
expensive
and sufficiently reliable.
I am skeptical of claims that the wires and other parts in PTP amps yield better
tone-in the
early days, cost was the main consideration for parts. Marty is right when he
says the way
electrons are conveyed should have no effect.
Gavin
--- In , "reverbrob" <woolsey@e...> wrote:
>
> I've owned and worked on both P-T-P and circuit board amps and I'd
> have to say the point-to-point stuff is more reliable and WAY easier
> to fix. Printed circuit boards are great for home consumer stuff
> that sits in one place, but they don't do so well with vibration,
> shock, and repeated cycles of hot-cold thermal expansion/contraction--
> - which is exactly what a gigging tube-based guitar amp gets. In
> particular, when things like input jacks, controls, tube sockets and
> large transformer connections are soldered right to the board, the
> solder joints tend to develop tiny fractures around the leads that
> can open up the electrical connection.
>
> I first saw this on my '93 Fender Super Amp when it developed an
> intermittent crackling sound. The amp tech showed me solder
> connections that had fractured completely around the leads of several
> of the larger components. He said he sees this all the time, and on
> circuit board amps that get hauled around and used a lot, you
> basically have to open 'em up every few years, look under high
> magnification and resolder whatever's coming loose.
>
> It might be different for solid-state amps, though. Much smaller
> components and no heat from tubes. I never had a problem with my old
> circuit board-based Roland JC-120 (other than its 1980's studded-dog-
> collar styling and ice-pick-in-the-head tone...)
>
> Rob Woolsey
>
>
> --- In , "darklsurf" <dcordes@s...>
> wrote: Is there a big difference between hand built point to point
> and sqeezed out of the factory stamped circuit boards? Other than
> the obvious being able to repair a point to point board, I've been
> under the school of thought that once a stamped circuit board was
> burned in and "worked" is was good to go. If a stamped circuit was
> bad, you'd know right away...well hopefully anyway.
Both you guys (Rob and Gavin) make heep big sense. I am no longer considering
losing the one PTP amp that I have. I have the Twin Reverb II that Paul Rivera
designed for Fender in his short time with the company. It is the last of the
PTP wired Twin Reverbs. I mention this because you can usually find the Twin
Reverb II fer cheap. It has an excellent clean tone and, at 105W, a bit more
oomph than my 85W '65 RI Twin.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Gavin Ehringer
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 4:45 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Point to Point?
What Rob says makes sense to me...my old Premier amps from the 1950s remain
relatively
untouched, save for some replaced resistors, tubes and caps. And they still
sound great.
My Aims, from 1973, with a circuit board, just went into the shop. It had no
end of loose
solder connections and a disturbing tube rattle the tech simply could not fix.
Same with a
'80s Marshall JTM-60 that was so loose and frought with bad connections, it
simply wasn't
worth the money to repair.
So, the PTP amps seem to hold up better over the long-haul.
If you want to hold onto your equipment and pass it on to your kids and
grandkids, the
extra money for a PTP-wired amp might be worth the investment. If you roll
over
equipment every few years, a modern circuit-board tube amp may prove less
expensive
and sufficiently reliable.
I am skeptical of claims that the wires and other parts in PTP amps yield
better tone-in the
early days, cost was the main consideration for parts. Marty is right when he
says the way
electrons are conveyed should have no effect.
Gavin
--- In , "reverbrob" <woolsey@e...> wrote:
>
> I've owned and worked on both P-T-P and circuit board amps and I'd
> have to say the point-to-point stuff is more reliable and WAY easier
> to fix. Printed circuit boards are great for home consumer stuff
> that sits in one place, but they don't do so well with vibration,
> shock, and repeated cycles of hot-cold thermal expansion/contraction--
> - which is exactly what a gigging tube-based guitar amp gets. In
> particular, when things like input jacks, controls, tube sockets and
> large transformer connections are soldered right to the board, the
> solder joints tend to develop tiny fractures around the leads that
> can open up the electrical connection.
>
> I first saw this on my '93 Fender Super Amp when it developed an
> intermittent crackling sound. The amp tech showed me solder
> connections that had fractured completely around the leads of several
> of the larger components. He said he sees this all the time, and on
> circuit board amps that get hauled around and used a lot, you
> basically have to open 'em up every few years, look under high
> magnification and resolder whatever's coming loose.
>
> It might be different for solid-state amps, though. Much smaller
> components and no heat from tubes. I never had a problem with my old
> circuit board-based Roland JC-120 (other than its 1980's studded-dog-
> collar styling and ice-pick-in-the-head tone...)
>
> Rob Woolsey
>
>
> --- In , "darklsurf" <dcordes@s...>
> wrote: Is there a big difference between hand built point to point
> and sqeezed out of the factory stamped circuit boards? Other than
> the obvious being able to repair a point to point board, I've been
> under the school of thought that once a stamped circuit board was
> burned in and "worked" is was good to go. If a stamped circuit was
> bad, you'd know right away...well hopefully anyway.
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well that settles it for me then. Thanks guys. You're a great help.
I had my 94' Blues Deluxe overhauled because it had the same blasted problem
with
the soldering not holding up. Hmmmm, makes me wonder, hot to cold temps,
vibrations, being hauled around...what was Fender thinking (yeah $$$$)? Talk
about a
design SNAFU
What year of Fender Twins are point to point? Or should I say before they really
screwed them up? Was that negative??? Sorry.
Dang Marty, wish I lived your area. Haven't seen much for used Fender amps being
cheap here, plus you get to surf!
Dale
Rob and Gavin really did explain the reliability very well.
About the sound:
I agree with the blind test method, it's probably the best indicator. I
wonder what will happen if you try your reissue TR against a good sounding
old one. I admit that my tests were not blind, but in one of the few
incidents that I made them, it involved recording the results and comparing.
We were amidst recording when my amp blew a fuse, and for some reason I did
not have a replacement one, and because of studio/label "politics" (don't
ask) I did not want to open someone else's amp and take a fuse. So I just
used the entire reissue amp (with my cabinet). It sounded different, but I
went on to try to record anyway. I wasn't the only one who noticed the
difference. The reissue had a fuzziness to it's sound, much less defined,
especially when the track was played with the rest of the instruments. So,
out went its fuse and we used my amp.
Regarding the mods to the reissue unit - I actually thought the tone cap mod
wasn't that dramatic. Also, the 6K6 GT made a difference, but not as much as
when I replaced the 12AT7 tube. That was a very dramatic difference. I
plugged the Chinese 12AT7 that came with the unit back in, and noticed the
difference again. Switched back and forth several times, just to make sure.
BTW - it was tested with a radio broadcast, not with a guitar signal. The
good sounding 12AT7 was an NOS GE unit, which I later replaced to an NOS
RCA. It really surprised me as most people said the most important thing to
do was to change the tone cap and the power tube.
BTW - Marty, I hope you didn't take my theoretical discussion joke
personally.
Ran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Tippens" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Point to Point?
>
> While I have attempted some mathematics on this list in the past, when it
comes to what sounds better, I rely only on the acid test of blindfold A/B
comparison. Comparing equipment side by side is not a reliable indicator of
which unit sounds best IF one is aware of the particular unit that is
producing the sound. If one truely wants to know which unit has the prefered
sound, the emotions of what we expect or want to have better sound has to be
taken out of the equation.
>
> I haven't done the comparison that Ran has done with new and old Twin
Reverbs. I do have one of the new '65 reissues and haven't had reliability
problems BUT I have to admit, I haven't played it out but a handful of
times. I do like the sound.
>
Aha! The 12AT7 eh? Well I haven't tested that one. I'll admit that I am very
sceptical that electron flow through a different 12AT7 will have any effect on
the sound of the RI tank but that's what makes this fun. I get to do another
scientific test. Similarly I would hope that nobody would take my word on these
sound issues and would engage in their own blindfold testing.
Ran, yours was the second poke at formulas that I had read so I was indeed
beginning to think I had given people the wrong idea, that I wanted to engage
this list in lottsa math-talk. A little math-talk once in a great while where
appropriate, yes. Lottsa math-talk, no. I had a good laugh when I got to your
part about the smoking jackets and accents.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Ran Mosessco
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Point to Point?
Rob and Gavin really did explain the reliability very well.
About the sound:
I agree with the blind test method, it's probably the best indicator. I
wonder what will happen if you try your reissue TR against a good sounding
old one. I admit that my tests were not blind, but in one of the few
incidents that I made them, it involved recording the results and comparing.
We were amidst recording when my amp blew a fuse, and for some reason I did
not have a replacement one, and because of studio/label "politics" (don't
ask) I did not want to open someone else's amp and take a fuse. So I just
used the entire reissue amp (with my cabinet). It sounded different, but I
went on to try to record anyway. I wasn't the only one who noticed the
difference. The reissue had a fuzziness to it's sound, much less defined,
especially when the track was played with the rest of the instruments. So,
out went its fuse and we used my amp.
Regarding the mods to the reissue unit - I actually thought the tone cap mod
wasn't that dramatic. Also, the 6K6 GT made a difference, but not as much as
when I replaced the 12AT7 tube. That was a very dramatic difference. I
plugged the Chinese 12AT7 that came with the unit back in, and noticed the
difference again. Switched back and forth several times, just to make sure.
BTW - it was tested with a radio broadcast, not with a guitar signal. The
good sounding 12AT7 was an NOS GE unit, which I later replaced to an NOS
RCA. It really surprised me as most people said the most important thing to
do was to change the tone cap and the power tube.
BTW - Marty, I hope you didn't take my theoretical discussion joke
personally.
Ran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Tippens" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Point to Point?
>
> While I have attempted some mathematics on this list in the past, when it
comes to what sounds better, I rely only on the acid test of blindfold A/B
comparison. Comparing equipment side by side is not a reliable indicator of
which unit sounds best IF one is aware of the particular unit that is
producing the sound. If one truely wants to know which unit has the prefered
sound, the emotions of what we expect or want to have better sound has to be
taken out of the equation.
>
> I haven't done the comparison that Ran has done with new and old Twin
Reverbs. I do have one of the new '65 reissues and haven't had reliability
problems BUT I have to admit, I haven't played it out but a handful of
times. I do like the sound.
>
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think the red knobbed Twins were the first to go pc board. That woulda been
late '80's.
Hey Dale, the internet will solve your location problems. Anyone anywhere
surfing on Ebay will find two Twin II's at 450- (Buy it Now price) unsold in the
completed items. Another one did sell for $185.00 but it needed work.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: darklsurf
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:32 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Point to Point?
Well that settles it for me then. Thanks guys. You're a great help.
I had my 94' Blues Deluxe overhauled because it had the same blasted problem
with
the soldering not holding up. Hmmmm, makes me wonder, hot to cold temps,
vibrations, being hauled around...what was Fender thinking (yeah $$$$)? Talk
about a
design SNAFU
What year of Fender Twins are point to point? Or should I say before they
really
screwed them up? Was that negative??? Sorry.
Dang Marty, wish I lived your area. Haven't seen much for used Fender amps
being
cheap here, plus you get to surf!
Dale
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
