Menu
Man, I enjoy this thread.
I love the point Dave made about different speakers doin'different
things, and they all have their pro's and con's. that's why i brought
it up, because I was considering different speaker configs for the
two guitars to get them transparent in the mix.
I was set straight about the math. doh! I used to be pretty good at
this stuf, but it's been 15 years since high-school. shame on me.
great stuff all you mathguys.
great point about the cone-shape. I'd guess centre-coil size would
matter too.
Well, here is somthing that puzzles me. If you consider that the
speaker will move air in an angle 90 degrees from its surface,
wouldn't the air movements of one side of the centre and the ones
from the other side interfere, and hence partly cancel out in some
frequencies, and amplify in others? would this determine frequency
response in speakers? My guess would be all the variables (cone size,
coil siz, cone depth) come into play here.
And, what I've always wondered about, does the same thing a pply to
those 4x12" bassman cabs were the speakers are placed in angles
towards each other? did anyone calculate that design or was that
experiment?
Man, I might be losing it.
wannes
"mono_tones_1" <> wrote:
Man, I enjoy this thread.
I love the point Dave made about different speakers doin'different
things, and they all have their pro's and con's. that's why i brought
it up, because I was considering different speaker configs for the
two guitars to get them transparent in the mix.
I was set straight about the math.
<SNIP>
Well, here is somthing that puzzles me. If you consider that the
speaker will move air in an angle 90 degrees from its surface,
wouldn't the air movements of one side of the centre and the ones
from the other side interfere, and hence partly cancel out in some
frequencies, and amplify in others?
<SNIP>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hope you got the formula right. Someone posted figures for
ten and fifteen inch speakers, and I think they squared the
diameter instead of the radius. Without a calculator handy,
I figure a ten inch diameter is about 75 square inches, while
a fifteen is about 168 square inches, based on pi * r².
(Rough, in-the-head calculations made using 3 for pi, so the
actual results would be a little higher.)
So, 2 fifteens push more air than 4 tens.
Bigger diameters do indeed produce longer wavelengths,
due to the larger area usually allows for longer excursions.
You are correct in the observation that it is possible that
a sloppy cone could produce self-canceling waves. That's
why the good ones cost plenty.
And, yes, all speakers have frequency 'colorations' due to the
asymmetry of the wave produced by the cone shape. Hence,
some like the feel of the sound of one brand over the other.
Most sophisticated speaker systems will split the frequencies
and drive diffeerent amps and speakers dedicated to those
ranges. This produces the cleanest sound, as the speakers
won't waste any energy trying to produce frequencies they
can't do.
In our case, it's a matter of taste as to the sound you want to
have. Bigger Speakers, fatter sound. Smaller Speakers, more
sharper.
Sorry to drone on.
My 2¢ worth.
Bill, the indentured Surf.
Wannes,
If you want good explanations of the dynamics of speakers, there are two web
sites that
offer interesting (and often conflicting) views:
www.tone-lizard.com/LESSON_INDEX.htm
www.webervst.com/sptalk.html
The first debunks many of the myths involving tube amps; the second is an info
site that is
very frank written by Ted Weber, who has made a concerted study of vintage
speaker
design (and, incidentally, makes great speakers).
Good reading for speaker tweakers! The argument about AlNiCo speakers is
especially
interesting, as the two experts are completely opposite on the merits of
magnets.
--- In , "mono_tones_1" <rockverb@h...> wrote:
>
> Man, I enjoy this thread.
>
> I love the point Dave made about different speakers doin'different
> things, and they all have their pro's and con's. that's why i brought
> it up, because I was considering different speaker configs for the
> two guitars to get them transparent in the mix.
>
> I was set straight about the math. doh! I used to be pretty good at
> this stuf, but it's been 15 years since high-school. shame on me.
> great stuff all you mathguys.
>
> great point about the cone-shape. I'd guess centre-coil size would
> matter too.
> Well, here is somthing that puzzles me. If you consider that the
> speaker will move air in an angle 90 degrees from its surface,
> wouldn't the air movements of one side of the centre and the ones
> from the other side interfere, and hence partly cancel out in some
> frequencies, and amplify in others? would this determine frequency
> response in speakers? My guess would be all the variables (cone size,
> coil siz, cone depth) come into play here.
> And, what I've always wondered about, does the same thing a pply to
> those 4x12" bassman cabs were the speakers are placed in angles
> towards each other? did anyone calculate that design or was that
> experiment?
>
> Man, I might be losing it.
>
> wannes
I have to mention one thing that no one seems to have brought up yet
on this thread:
tilt back legs
I use mine on practically every gig and if nothing else, it sure
seems to help me hear myself, and I usually get good feedback from
the crowd on overall balance of the band
we almost always play with no P.A., and sometimes bring our own
little P.A. just to get the drums up there in bigger venues
Boulder Bob
The Beloved Invaders
--- In , "Bob Cannistraro" <
Yea. We usualy play small bars at low volume with no PA. I use my
tuner box under the front of the amp.Ive thought of adding tilt backs
to my hot rod. One twelve by the way. Miller
cannistraro@e...> wrote:
>
> I have to mention one thing that no one seems to have brought up
yet
> on this thread:
>
> tilt back legs
>
> I use mine on practically every gig and if nothing else, it sure
> seems to help me hear myself, and I usually get good feedback from
> the crowd on overall balance of the band
>
> we almost always play with no P.A., and sometimes bring our own
> little P.A. just to get the drums up there in bigger venues
>
> Boulder Bob
> The Beloved Invaders
The analysis of colliding sound waves is extremely complicated and requires an
advanced background in partial differential equations. Yes, all the variables,
too many variables, come into play and the discussion can quickly spiral into
the infinite regress of analyzing all the corpuscular factors. But for our
purposes, the most significant factors for sound are going to be the size of the
speaker, the displacement of the cone, the power handling and then things like
the materials used in the manufacturing. The angling of a set of speakers is
going to most significantly change the direct volume to someone standing format
of the speaker, obviously, and will have some affect on tone.
-Marty
> Well, here is somthing that puzzles me. If you consider that the
> speaker will move air in an angle 90 degrees from its surface,
> wouldn't the air movements of one side of the centre and the ones
> from the other side interfere, and hence partly cancel out in some
> frequencies, and amplify in others? would this determine frequency
> response in speakers? My guess would be all the variables (cone size,
> coil siz, cone depth) come into play here.
> And, what I've always wondered about, does the same thing a pply to
> those 4x12" bassman cabs were the speakers are placed in angles
> towards each other? did anyone calculate that design or was that
> experiment?
>
> Man, I might be losing it.
>
> wannes
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Very interesting discussion. Here's what I can add from my experience.
The 2 main cabinets that I have been using are a Dual Showman style 2X15"
with JBL D-130 speakers, and Marshall 1960BV which is a 4x12" with Celestion
Vintage 30s (straight cab).
In live situations I used to use the JBL cab for the surfy stuff and the
Marshall for the distorted parts. I never had a problem of being heard, but
that was mostly the guitar I was using (the Charvel has so much more mid
range, that the scooped mid character of the JBLs was offset).
Then I switched to just the Marshall cab for convenience reasons. This made
me cut through even more.
When recording, though, I wanted to retain the more "correct" tone of the
JBLs, so I had the opportunity to hear the difference side by side. The 15"
inch speakers have a totally scooped sound, which can make the guitar get
burried in the mix, compared to smaller speakers. I can't compare them to
10" speakers, but the contrast to the 12" speakers was very notcieable. The
15" might have been moving more low frequencies, but they were the ones that
you usually need to cut because they don't mix well in the overall texture
of the complete band sound.
Today I'm using my JBL cab in conjunction with the Marshall cab (different
sides of the stage), but with the Jazzmaster guitar I get burried sometimes
(especially since Hans my bandmate is playing a Moserite through a
Vibro-King which has 3X10" Jensen speakers, and an EV 12" extension cabinet
on "my" side of the stage).
So - it's not just speaker size and type, it's also the guitar you're using,
how many other guitars in the band, how fast or how thick the overall
texture of the music is.
You have to try to arrange the voicing and the playing to suit all that. For
example, I spend most of playing time on the lower notes of the guitar
(because I'm not such a good player, and because that's the sound I like
best), so I have to watch and see that the bass player doesn't play too much
on his higher notes, becasue these are the same octave as the guitar and
they collide. The faster the songs are, the more trouble it is.
So, if anyone is considering getting a 15" speaker cabinet, they need to
consider all these factors, and decide if they really want to go through all
the trouble (I know I do, but I'm just hard headed about it).
You'd do very well if you take Dave's advise and go with the smaller
speakers.
My 2 agorot.
Ran
I think we all agree, Ran, that it's not just the speaker that contributes to
tone. The focus on speakers came up with the question: Why does a 15' speaker
give a darker tone than 4 10's even though the 15" has less surface area?
I just this last weekend got your Astroglides CD. It's wonderful. Did you pay
handsomely for the horns and flute?
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Ran Mosessco
...So - it's not just speaker size and type, it's also the guitar you're
using,
how many other guitars in the band, how fast or how thick the overall
texture of the music is...
My 2 agorot.
Ran
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Get unlimited calls to
U.S./Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
