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Been thinking about the "non-Fender guitars" thing some more...
Surely some of you guys must like Southern Culture on the Skids,
right?
I think Rick Miller gets killer sounds out of his
Danelectro/Silvertone guitars, Supros, even Gibsons! I think his tone
on "Mexi-Melt" is pretty outrageous and totally surf.
Another band that I really like is The Paladins (from San Diego).
They've been around forever and though they mostly do
rockabilly/blues/rootsy rock'n'roll stuff, they do some great surf
instros now and then. "Return to Polara" or "Powershake" off their
new "Palvoline #7" record...it's a Guild X-500 through a Fender
reverb tank and it sounds pretty awesome to my ears.
The Hillbilly Hellcats (from Colorado) are a really cool
rockabilly/psychobilly band that dabbles in surf, too. Their guitar
player, Chuck Hughes (absolutely amazing picker) uses a variety of
Gretsch hollowbody guitars plugged into a Fender Super Reverb. He
gets a real sweet, rich tone on "Lazy Surfer". If any of you guys are
into Rev. Horton Heat, check out the Hillbilly Hellcats (they have
the Rev's old drummer on their two CDs).
Speakin' of which, Rev. Horton Heat has been known to play some cool
instrumentals, though not strictly "surf"...once again, Gretsch 6120
or White Falcon.
Deke Dickerson's playing in The Untamed Youth always knocked me out
(I love that band). Although he often recorded with a Jaguar, live he
usually played a Gibson ES-335 with the outer coils of his humbucking
pickups shorted out for a single-coil sound. Can't argue with his
tone.
I'm not a particularly huge fan of either band, but both Huevos
Rancheros and Shadowy Men used Gretsch hollowbodies, too. I don't
think that the guiatar sounds in either of these bands are
particularly exciting or representative of what Gretsch guitars sound
like.
In all fairness, I have to admit that if I wanted a totally
traditional 60's surf guitar tone, I'd pick the Jaguar or, as a 2nd
choice, a Jazzmaster, strung with .13 flatwounds. I never could get
along with a Strat...hard to get an original sound with one when 50%
of guitar players in the world are playing a Strat or a Strat copy,
the only pickup I like on 'em is the middle one but my picking style
keeps makes me keep smacking the switch into bridge position...and I
really hate Strat tremolos. I've had a few Strats (including a couple
that really stood out, sonically) but I always ended up selling them.
Jazzmasters are probably more versatile, but to me a Jaguar is THEE
definitive surf tone (and look). I like the short scale length, too.
I always liked the "thin" switch that no one ever seems to use on
Jags...my lead sound was always either both pickups on, or neck
pickup + thin switch. Gives a great "rubber band" kind of sound.
To top it off, the Jag/Jazzmaster trem is perfectly suited for surf.
You can't "dive-bomb" (even if you WANTED to) and the feel is smooth
and really precice over a pretty narrow range. I think that the only
thing better than a Jag/Jazzmaster trem is a Bigsby (and I don't mean
those generic Bigsby copies you find on Danelectros and new DeArmond
guitars and new Epiphones...they might look similar but they don't
feel the same).
However, after a while I became somewhat disinterested in playing
with a "surf" sound and became concerned with making "my" sound work
in a surf context. There's enough bands out there trying to sound
exactly like the Astronauts or something, so the world probably
doesn't need yet ANOTHER guy with a Jaguar and a reverb tank...
> However, after a while I became somewhat disinterested in playing
> with a "surf" sound and became concerned with making "my" sound
work
> in a surf context. There's enough bands out there trying to sound
> exactly like the Astronauts or something, so the world probably
> doesn't need yet ANOTHER guy with a Jaguar and a reverb tank...
A most poignant and apropos comment!
Kudos to you, Zak!
I just want to say how REALLY cool is to have Zak on this list. Those of
you that are not familiar with his playing or his band the Treblemakers,
well, you're missing some GREAT music. The Treblemakers third CD
"vs. Doomsday Device" is in my top 10 surf albums of all time. The man
knows whereof he speaks!
Having said that, I must take some issues with his statements. :}
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 wrote:
> Been thinking about the "non-Fender guitars" thing some more...
> Surely some of you guys must like Southern Culture on the Skids,
> right?
> I think Rick Miller gets killer sounds out of his
> Danelectro/Silvertone guitars, Supros, even Gibsons! I think his tone
> on "Mexi-Melt" is pretty outrageous and totally surf.
I love "Mexi-Melt", but I don't think we can assume that Rick didn't
record it with a Fender. In fact, I've seen him play a Tele live more
than a few times.
> Deke Dickerson's playing in The Untamed Youth always knocked me out
> (I love that band). Although he often recorded with a Jaguar, live he
> usually played a Gibson ES-335 with the outer coils of his humbucking
> pickups shorted out for a single-coil sound. Can't argue with his
> tone.
I think Deke has the most amazing rockabilly sound I've ever heard, but I
felt that his surf tone always left much to be desired. It was thin,
trebly, pretty dead sounding. I've actually discussed this with him one
time, and he said that he wasn't the best surf guitarist. I think his
strengths are definitely in the stuff he's doing now, which is simply
jaw-dropping. As I've said before, Deke is God!
> I'm not a particularly huge fan of either band, but both Huevos
> Rancheros and Shadowy Men used Gretsch hollowbodies, too. I don't
> think that the guiatar sounds in either of these bands are
> particularly exciting or representative of what Gretsch guitars sound
> like.
I will fully agree.
> However, after a while I became somewhat disinterested in playing
> with a "surf" sound and became concerned with making "my" sound work
> in a surf context. There's enough bands out there trying to sound
> exactly like the Astronauts or something, so the world probably
> doesn't need yet ANOTHER guy with a Jaguar and a reverb tank...
That's fair enough. However, I must say that your tone was pretty
incredible. It probably still is, but I'm glad that you recorded the
stuff you did using the Fender guitars. (I either forgot or never knew
that you used a Jag for most of the "Doomsday Device" CD - interesting, I
thought it was your Jazzmaster mongrel)
As a response to Zak, I would say that I believe it is definitely possible
to achieve a personalized sound using those same basic tools. I think of
Frankie Blandino (the Fathoms), Phantom Frank (the Treble Spankers),
Dalibor Pavicic (Bambi Molesters), or Naka Shigeo (the Surf Coasters), and
their playing is instantly recognizable to my ears. Ultimately, it DOES
come down to the fingers, heart and mind of the player. I just prefer
when those fingers, heart and mind are expressing themselves with a trad
setup, that's all.
BTW, I define the 'surf tone' in a very narrow way. There is no judgement
that if one diverges from that tone he must therefore suck, or not play
surf music. Not at all. But if we're talking about THEE 'surf tone',
then we are talking the Astronauts, Dick Dale, Eddie & the Showman, the
Pyramids. That's the stuff. IMHO, of course.
> I just wanted to say that one of my all-time favorite 60's surf
> guitarists, Johnny Fortune (real name John Sudetta) recorded his classic
> sides with a 50's Gretsch 6120 w/DeArmond Dynasonic pickups. Man, that
> tone just knocks me out, it has to be one of the most unique and
> beautiful sounds in surf music...
I hadn't listened to this CD in ages, so I pulled it out today and have
been listening it. I don't like it nearly as much, but it's fun stuff to
listen to. If somebody asked me what surf guitar sounded like, NO WAY
would I pull out this CD and play it for them, though! Besides the Chet
Atkins influence, the tone is much more in the early Ventures category,
with some South Bay influence (the Belairs). it's a great tone, no doubt
about it, but not what I would think of as the surf tone. (it also sounds
like all the SoCal studio bands of early- to mid-sixties, like the Darts,
Defenders, the Deuce Coups, with either Glen Campbell or Tommy Tedesco or
whoever on guitar).
On the other hand, I've always wanted to combine the Astronauts/DD tone
with Hank Marvin, and that's what i tried to do on the two Space Cossacks
albums. Those are not supposed to go together, either, so there you go.
StratoCossack
Hi Ivan! (BTW, you have mail)
See, this is what I miss...we might not see eye-to-eye on everything
all the time, but I'd rather hear an intelligently-voiced difference
of opinion than simple affirmation.
--- In SurfGuitar101@y..., IVAN PONGRACIC <ipongrac@m...> wrote:
> I love "Mexi-Melt", but I don't think we can assume that Rick didn't
> record it with a Fender. In fact, I've seen him play a Tele live
more than a few times.
Very good point...I've seen pictures of Rick with a Jazzmaster, for
that matter...BUT I have heard him play that specific song live a few
times, and both times he used this totally beat-to-hell Danelectro
double-cutaway (old, not reissue) that had the input jack caved into
the body so that his lead cord just disappeared into a jagged hole in
the body, plugged into some kind of Matchless amp, maybe a DC30...and
he sounded almost exactly like he does on the record!
> I think Deke has the most amazing rockabilly sound I've ever heard,
but I
> felt that his surf tone always left much to be desired. It was
thin,
> trebly, pretty dead sounding
Hmmm...Deke's tone on the Untamed Youth records sounds alot like the
Trashmen to my ears, and I love the Trashmen sound. I think Deke
souned awesome on stuff like "F.U.J.I.M.O." and the Untamed Youth's
versions of "the Hearse" or "Haulin' Honda".
And yes, the stuff Deke is doing now with the Eccophonics is quite
awesome, definitely on a whole other musical level than the Untamed
Youth, who were basically a drunken frat band (not that there's
anything wrong with that)! Deke's recent stuff is essential listening!
> I would say that I believe it is definitely possible
> to achieve a personalized sound using those same basic tools
Oh, no argument there. I was just trying to say that no matter how
personalized you get with those specific tools, it's a recognizable
sound...you know - "oh, that sounds like a Jag or Jazzmaster through
a reverb tank and a brownface piggyback amp with a closed-back cab".
Sure there's LOTS of variation inherently possible with that kind of
setup (Dick Dale's 60's tone sounds nothing like the Astronauts' tone
or like Randy Holden with the Fender IV, for example) but it's still
pretty easy to identify as being that type of setup.
I'm just trying to narrow it down to what works or doesn't work for
ME. I was quite satisfied with a Jaguar or Jazzmaster when I only
needed that one sound in a band, but they don't feel right for say,
Merle Travis fingerpicking or 40's jump blues or Johnny Burnette
influenced psycho/rockabilly!
Now that I'm in a band that will actually do all the above genres
within any given set I appreciate the versatility of something like a
Gretsch Tennessean. It just happens to work (and well, at that) for
the musically eclectic situation I'm in right now.
> On the other hand, I've always wanted to combine the Astronauts/DD
tone
> with Hank Marvin, and that's what i tried to do on the two Space
Cossacks
> albums. Those are not supposed to go together, either, so there
you go.
There you go - see? I think that the genre gets more interesting when
you start messing with it, unless of course it's self-indulgent and
annoying like the Mermen.
I think the reason your stuff sounds so cool is that you soaked up
that Atlantics influence and the drama and melodicism of their style
is strongly reflected in your writing.
Another thing - you used a Vox AC30 on some of the songs and I
remember you giving me a detailed list of exactly where and when the
Vox was used, but it ends up sounding like a Fender once you stick
enough reverb in there (at least to my ears, which have probably been
permanmently cooked after standing in front of a 120 watt Leslie
blasting Farfisa high notes for so long).
I doubt that the results would have been nearly as interesting if
your goal had been merely to reproduce "the sounds of 1963 in a
specific part of SoCal".
Don't get me wrong, I love that sound, it's just that I don't see
any "trad" surf bands actually IMPROVING on the Fender IV or Jim
Messina & the Jesters, so I'd rather listen to the real deal than
some contemporary imitation thereof, and that goes for other kinds of
music, too.
I'd rather hear someone use the 60's surf sound as a springboard for
some kind of original style (as the Cossacks did).
Like I said - I LOVE the original 1st-wave surf sound, but part of
what I love about it is that it was this wild, futuristic,
testosterone-charged rebellious stuff played by teenage kids on a
sugar high, kids that were simply thrilled to be alive and expressing
that thrill, not by middle-aged record collectors who are conciously
trying to reproduce a 40 year old style of music and are expressing
their knowlege of vintage gear and obscure surf covers.
>
> I doubt that the results would have been nearly as interesting if
> your goal had been merely to reproduce "the sounds of 1963 in a
> specific part of SoCal".
> Don't get me wrong, I love that sound, it's just that I don't see
> any "trad" surf bands actually IMPROVING on the Fender IV or Jim
> Messina & the Jesters, so I'd rather listen to the real deal than
> some contemporary imitation thereof, and that goes for other kinds
of music, too. I'd rather hear someone use the 60's surf sound as a
springboard for some kind of original style (as the Cossacks did).
Hadda chime in for this, I agree whole heartedly. I'm a trad- guy
myself but I see a lot of trad bands getting stuck in the same old
covers trap- Y'know, Mr.Moto, Squad Car, Penetration. I dig these
songs but I'd like to see other covers that no one seems to do,
example- Batman (not the TV theme) by the Astronauts, Flashing Eyes
by Dick Dale, or the Surfaris rendition of Similau.
The sound I'm tryin' to strive for is a 1963 trad, so-cal but with
the Ventures knack for taking pop material and giving it an instro
arrangement. For example, I working on a surf arrangement of Nadia's
theme (I'm calling it Nadia's Surf), also I'm doing an arrangement of
A Bicycle Built for Two (A Surfboard Built for Two). Like Rip
Thrillby said on Reverborama, Go Wild and explore new territory. I'm
doing so but keeping the arrangements trad. The best TV theme I've
heard with a surf guitar arrangement is the Sintones version of the
Mary Tyler Moore theme.
Chad Cote
6 string surfer
--- In SurfGuitar101@y..., jazzmaster64@h... wrote:
> I'd like to see other covers that no one seems to do,
> example- ...the Surfaris rendition of Similau.
Actually, the Finks did a SMOKIN' version of Similau.
Everyone probably already knows this but the Finks were a band that
had Jake, Greg and Dave from the Bomboras and Chris Barfield
(Huntington Cads). I count the Bomboras and the Finks as two of the
brightest moments in the whole "third wave"...but then again, I'm
just a sucker for a Farfisa organ being played through a Leslie.
