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All this talk of Jim Messina made me pull out his CD and his album.
I thought it would be interesting to share something with you that I
have noticed.
The original Jesters LP was released sometime in '64 and was credited
to "Jim Messina and his Jesters" (notice the copy of "Dick Dale and
HIS Del-tones") and it was called The Dragsters. This is the LP that
was reissued on CD on the semi-legit Euro label Surf in the '90s.
It's great stuff, 14 songs, 11 of them written my Messina. The
covers are: an uptempo version of the Breeze and I, and surf-guitar-
led versions of fifties instro hits Honky Tonk and Raunchy.
Messina's guitar work is truly exceptional, sounding like DD's
flashier doppleganger, with a lot of nimble fingerwork full of fast
hammer-ons and pull-offs, and not as much double-picking as you may
expect. I HIGHLY recommend this CD. The highlights for me are "The
Jester", which is as good as any surf song I think, "The
Cossack", "High Voltage" (an apt title!), and "Yang Bu". If there is
one criticism I would have of the material is that it's a bit light
on melody, instead relying on groove, energy and improvisation. But
it works most of the time. There's a really nice jazz and even blues
influence throughout, especially evident on "Suspense Run"
and "Hollywood Sound" (both very jazzy in rhythm and featuring some
tasty surf-blues guitar playing, with the latter obviously influenced
by Mel Torme's "I'm Comin' Home Baby"). And as Messina mentioned in
his interview, almost every song has a bunch of engine revving and
tires skidding noises overdubbed. A lot of songs also have the
noises of the band shouting along with the music, as if they're
really into it. I suspect these were overdubbed later, along with
the car-related noises.
So far, so good. But here's where it gets interesting. This album
was rereleased in '73, when NOBODY had any interest in surf music!
Why? Probably cause Messina was becoming a well-known name, and
somebody wanted to capitalize on it. Did Messina have any
involvement? Who knows? I have this LP, and the packaging looks
like it was from the sixties, with nothing giving it away as a
seventies record or a reissue. The liner notes all speak in the
present tense, and the photos are all from '64, though at least the
front cover is different than the original one. Big deal, you say.
Well, OK, yes, if that's all it was, who cares. But then let's take
a look at the track listing: only twelve songs this time ("Strange
Man" and "Suspense Run" were omitted). Again, big deal. But wait!
Here's where it gets interesting! Take a listen, side by side with
the original tracks, and you come to the shocking conclusion that
these are DIFFERENT versions of the tracks! The only song that
appears to be the same version on both albums is "Hollywood Sound".
The others vary from very subtle differences ("Chihiuahua", for
example - that one required very careful listening to tell they're
different) to completely different arrangements ("The Breeze and
I"). And "Tamale Wagon" is a completely different song on the '73
album! Most of the other songs are different in more subtle ways,
different tempos (with the original album tending to feature faster
versions), different licks, chord progression going up at some point
rather than down, different endings. And there are no shouting or
racing noises. So what the hell is going on here? Nobody seems to
know.
I've discussed this with John Blair a few years ago and he never
noticed the different versions of the songs - he thought it was just
a straight-forward reissue with a different cover, and two songs left
out (and of course with all the noises left out). But for any of you
that care and have both releases, compare them back to back. They're
clearly different, sometimes very obviously so. John suggested that
maybe Messina rerecorded the tracks in the seventies. I really doubt
that. I suspect that Messina couldn't give a crap about surf music
by '73, and anyway, the sound quality and the recording is very
authentic: it SOUNDS like a cheap early- to mid-sixties recording,
for better or worse. I can't imagine they would have struggled to
get such an authentic sound in '73. They probably would have wanted
to "improve" it! So, I'm pretty much 100% sure that's not it.
My conclusion is that whoever rereleased the album got a hold of a
bunch of master tapes which were not marked very clearly. These
master tapes probably spanned several months or more of recording
dates, thus featuring evolving arrangements of the songs. And the
tapes had a whole bunch of different takes of the same songs. Rather
than going back to the earlier album and trying to recreate it
perfectly, they probably just tried to listen for the best
performances and released those only. This is my best explanation of
what happened.
God, it would be really nice if somebody took the effort to find
those master tapes, and release all of the different songs, plus
their alternative '73 versions, in a cleaned-up sound, cause it
doesn't really sound very good. It took a while but it happened for
Eddie & the Showman, maybe one day it'll happen for the Jesters,
too. They DEFINITELY deserve it! This is among the best of sixties
surf music.
Anyway, just thought I'd share this with you.
(BTW, looking at the front cover of the album, where I could see
Messina's white Strat in a great deal of detail, you can see that
Messina left off the volume and tone knobs on his Strat - again, just
like DD!! Man, this kid had a BAD case of hero-worship! Good for
us, though, he created some awesome music as a result.)
Iven
This is interesting, Ivan.
I think that something you posted before, that Jim didn't like all the sound
effects and the fact that the '73 version doesn't have the sound effects may add
up to Jim's involvement in the release of the old recordings. But it's hard to
believe that he would want the old tracks released at all in '73. I mean the
instro surf sound was just so o-u-t out in '73. So I'm guessing that is as you
say, somene stumbling around in the vaults and pulling the wrong masters in
order to cash in on Messina's ealy '70's success.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: ipongrac
To:
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:19 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Jim Messina and His Jesters: "Dragsters" - review,
and the mystery
...The original Jesters LP was released sometime in '64 and was credited
to "Jim Messina and his Jesters"...This album
was rereleased in '73, when NOBODY had any interest in surf music!
...Probably cause Messina was becoming a well-known name, and
somebody wanted to capitalize on it...the packaging looks
like it was from the sixties...the front cover is different than the original
one...these are DIFFERENT versions of the tracks!...I suspect that Messina
couldn't give a crap about surf music by '73, and anyway, the sound quality and
the recording is very
authentic: it SOUNDS like a cheap early- to mid-sixties recording,
for better or worse. I can't imagine they would have struggled to
get such an authentic sound in '73. They probably would have wanted
to "improve" it! So, I'm pretty much 100% sure that's not it.
My conclusion is that whoever rereleased the album got a hold of a
bunch of master tapes which were not marked very clearly....
(BTW, looking at the front cover of the album, where I could see
Messina's white Strat in a great deal of detail, you can see that
Messina left off the volume and tone knobs on his Strat - again, just
like DD!! Man, this kid had a BAD case of hero-worship! Good for
us, though, he created some awesome music as a result.)
Iven
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ivan,
As you are obviously a huge fan, have you thought about asking Mr.
Messina himself? A quick check of jimmessina.com provides this
imaginative email address:
According to his site, his musical life begins in in '67 with Buffalo
Springfield.
Give it a go, he might be interested to know that a lot of people care
about the start of his career. Inquiring minds want to know!
ferenc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ipongrac
> To:
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:19 AM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Jim Messina and His Jesters: "Dragsters" -
> review, and the mystery
>
>
> ...The original Jesters LP was released sometime in '64 and was credited
> to "Jim Messina and his Jesters"...This album
> was rereleased in '73, when NOBODY had any interest in surf music!
> ...Probably cause Messina was becoming a well-known name, and
> somebody wanted to capitalize on it...the packaging looks
> like it was from the sixties...the front cover is different than the
> original one...these are DIFFERENT versions of the tracks!...I suspect
> that Messina couldn't give a crap about surf music by '73, and anyway,
> the sound quality and the recording is very
> authentic: it SOUNDS like a cheap early- to mid-sixties recording,
> for better or worse. I can't imagine they would have struggled to
> get such an authentic sound in '73. They probably would have wanted
> to "improve" it! So, I'm pretty much 100% sure that's not it.
>
> My conclusion is that whoever rereleased the album got a hold of a
> bunch of master tapes which were not marked very clearly....
>
> (BTW, looking at the front cover of the album, where I could see
> Messina's white Strat in a great deal of detail, you can see that
> Messina left off the volume and tone knobs on his Strat - again, just
> like DD!! Man, this kid had a BAD case of hero-worship! Good for
> us, though, he created some awesome music as a result.)
>
> Iven
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
> bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
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>
Where can I buy a copy of the CD? I've been looking
for almost five minutes and can't find it...
Anyway, if anyone knows off the top of their heads,
I'd like to find out. Thanks.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
I was thinking about trying that myself....if he responds I'll solicit
questions from the list.
BN
> Ivan,
> As you are obviously a huge fan, have you thought about asking Mr.
> Messina himself? A quick check of jimmessina.com provides this
> imaginative email address:
>
> According to his site, his musical life begins in in '67 with Buffalo
> Springfield.
>
> Give it a go, he might be interested to know that a lot of people care
> about the start of his career. Inquiring minds want to know!
>
> ferenc
>
I think he just needs to be approached correctlty. I thought Ivan's
post was well researched and very convincing...
good luck,
ferenc wrote:
> I was thinking about trying that myself....if he responds I'll solicit
> questions from the list.
>
> BN
>
> > Ivan,
> > As you are obviously a huge fan, have you thought about asking Mr.
> > Messina himself? A quick check of jimmessina.com provides this
> > imaginative email address:
> >
> > According to his site, his musical life begins in in '67 with Buffalo
> > Springfield.
> >
> > Give it a go, he might be interested to know that a lot of people care
> > about the start of his career. Inquiring minds want to know!
> >
> > ferenc
> >
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
> bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
<>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
> <mailto:?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <>.
>
>
That would be great, Brian. I'm about to leave for a business trip
for another week, and time is a bit scarce. But I'll keep monitoring
the list, and see what happens.
BTW, feel free to share my 'review and mystery' post with him -
anything he can do to shed light on it would be very welcome by me!
Ivan
--- In , "Brian Neal" <bneal@i...> wrote:
> I was thinking about trying that myself....if he responds I'll
solicit
> questions from the list.
>
> BN
>
Patrick, I think you might be out of luck. That CD was probably
never a legitimate release in the first place, and it's probably been
out of print for years now. But it may help that it was on the
label "Surf" and it was combined with another old surf album, by
Adrian & the Sunsets, called "Breakthrough". A&tS are listed first
on the CD, so you could do a search for them, and see what comes up.
Otherwise, just keep your eye on eBay.
Good luck!
Ivan
--- In , Patrick Shiflett
<p_shiflett@y...> wrote:
> Where can I buy a copy of the CD? I've been looking
> for almost five minutes and can't find it...
> Anyway, if anyone knows off the top of their heads,
> I'd like to find out. Thanks.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
>
Check with Norton Records. I think I've seen it in their catalogue.
Mike
Someone on Cowabunga had talked about this a year or 2 ago.
Saying that they were definetly differnet recordings on some songs,
and different mixes on others. John Blairs book shows both pictures
in it, but says it's just a re-release.
Jeff(bigtikidude)
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
> All this talk of Jim Messina made me pull out his CD and his
album.
> I thought it would be interesting to share something with you that
I
> have noticed.
>
> The original Jesters LP was released sometime in '64 and was
credited
> to "Jim Messina and his Jesters" (notice the copy of "Dick Dale and
> HIS Del-tones") and it was called The Dragsters. This is the LP
that
> was reissued on CD on the semi-legit Euro label Surf in the '90s.
> It's great stuff, 14 songs, 11 of them written my Messina. The
> covers are: an uptempo version of the Breeze and I, and surf-guitar-
> led versions of fifties instro hits Honky Tonk and Raunchy.
> Messina's guitar work is truly exceptional, sounding like DD's
> flashier doppleganger, with a lot of nimble fingerwork full of fast
> hammer-ons and pull-offs, and not as much double-picking as you may
> expect. I HIGHLY recommend this CD. The highlights for me
are "The
> Jester", which is as good as any surf song I think, "The
> Cossack", "High Voltage" (an apt title!), and "Yang Bu". If there
is
> one criticism I would have of the material is that it's a bit light
> on melody, instead relying on groove, energy and improvisation.
But
> it works most of the time. There's a really nice jazz and even
blues
> influence throughout, especially evident on "Suspense Run"
> and "Hollywood Sound" (both very jazzy in rhythm and featuring some
> tasty surf-blues guitar playing, with the latter obviously
influenced
> by Mel Torme's "I'm Comin' Home Baby"). And as Messina mentioned
in
> his interview, almost every song has a bunch of engine revving and
> tires skidding noises overdubbed. A lot of songs also have the
> noises of the band shouting along with the music, as if they're
> really into it. I suspect these were overdubbed later, along with
> the car-related noises.
>
> So far, so good. But here's where it gets interesting. This album
> was rereleased in '73, when NOBODY had any interest in surf music!
> Why? Probably cause Messina was becoming a well-known name, and
> somebody wanted to capitalize on it. Did Messina have any
> involvement? Who knows? I have this LP, and the packaging looks
> like it was from the sixties, with nothing giving it away as a
> seventies record or a reissue. The liner notes all speak in the
> present tense, and the photos are all from '64, though at least the
> front cover is different than the original one. Big deal, you
say.
> Well, OK, yes, if that's all it was, who cares. But then let's
take
> a look at the track listing: only twelve songs this time ("Strange
> Man" and "Suspense Run" were omitted). Again, big deal. But
wait!
> Here's where it gets interesting! Take a listen, side by side with
> the original tracks, and you come to the shocking conclusion that
> these are DIFFERENT versions of the tracks! The only song that
> appears to be the same version on both albums is "Hollywood
Sound".
> The others vary from very subtle differences ("Chihiuahua", for
> example - that one required very careful listening to tell they're
> different) to completely different arrangements ("The Breeze and
> I"). And "Tamale Wagon" is a completely different song on the '73
> album! Most of the other songs are different in more subtle ways,
> different tempos (with the original album tending to feature faster
> versions), different licks, chord progression going up at some
point
> rather than down, different endings. And there are no shouting or
> racing noises. So what the hell is going on here? Nobody seems to
> know.
>
> I've discussed this with John Blair a few years ago and he never
> noticed the different versions of the songs - he thought it was
just
> a straight-forward reissue with a different cover, and two songs
left
> out (and of course with all the noises left out). But for any of
you
> that care and have both releases, compare them back to back.
They're
> clearly different, sometimes very obviously so. John suggested
that
> maybe Messina rerecorded the tracks in the seventies. I really
doubt
> that. I suspect that Messina couldn't give a crap about surf music
> by '73, and anyway, the sound quality and the recording is very
> authentic: it SOUNDS like a cheap early- to mid-sixties recording,
> for better or worse. I can't imagine they would have struggled to
> get such an authentic sound in '73. They probably would have
wanted
> to "improve" it! So, I'm pretty much 100% sure that's not it.
>
> My conclusion is that whoever rereleased the album got a hold of a
> bunch of master tapes which were not marked very clearly. These
> master tapes probably spanned several months or more of recording
> dates, thus featuring evolving arrangements of the songs. And the
> tapes had a whole bunch of different takes of the same songs.
Rather
> than going back to the earlier album and trying to recreate it
> perfectly, they probably just tried to listen for the best
> performances and released those only. This is my best explanation
of
> what happened.
>
> God, it would be really nice if somebody took the effort to find
> those master tapes, and release all of the different songs, plus
> their alternative '73 versions, in a cleaned-up sound, cause it
> doesn't really sound very good. It took a while but it happened
for
> Eddie & the Showman, maybe one day it'll happen for the Jesters,
> too. They DEFINITELY deserve it! This is among the best of
sixties
> surf music.
>
> Anyway, just thought I'd share this with you.
>
> (BTW, looking at the front cover of the album, where I could see
> Messina's white Strat in a great deal of detail, you can see that
> Messina left off the volume and tone knobs on his Strat - again,
just
> like DD!! Man, this kid had a BAD case of hero-worship! Good for
> us, though, he created some awesome music as a result.)
>
> Iven
--- In , "Jeff" <bigtikidude@y...> wrote:
> Someone on Cowabunga had talked about this a year or 2 ago.
> Saying that they were definetly differnet recordings on some songs,
> and different mixes on others.
Yeah, that was me. I first discovered this in '98, and I've brought
it up on lists every couple of years or so. I figured I'll just keep
trying until somebody sheds some light on it. Never even occurred to
me to just ask Messina himself! Well, hopefully emailing him will
work.
Ivan
