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Hello Guys,
Please don't get me wrong here, but I don't get the term "Fender Nazis".
I'm just wandering, Why Fender Nazis ? ...
Regards,
Jerry S. from Belgium
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-Nazis added to a particular style or faith or brand is used to
portray people who are very militant in their belief of the
superiority of said style/brand/faith. Femi-Nazis, Fender-Nazis,
Surf-Nazis, etc...
--- In SurfGuitar101@y..., "Jerry" <jerry.soetewey@b...> wrote:
> Hello Guys,
>
>
>
> Please don't get me wrong here, but I don't get the term "Fender
Nazis".
>
>
>
>
> I'm just wandering, Why Fender Nazis ? ...
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Jerry S. from Belgium
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What I used the term to mean, and I guess I have to
take credit for starting this whole Nazi mess . . .
not the WW2 one of course . . . is that the guitar
doesn't have to be a Fender to have the "Fender Surf
Sound." People seem to think that Fender in 2002 is
going to be the same as Fender of old. They can't be
convinced that Fender is no longer where the sound is
and sacrifice tons of money to the company who's owner
left so long ago. Does anyone honestly think that
Stevie Ray would play that SRV piece o' junk that they
pass off as a great axe? Think Dick Dale plays his
signature model, think again. But don't be
discouraged, there are alternatives to the Fender
money manufacturing machine.
It seems to me that the best amps made today for surf
music are not Fender (check out a Kendrick or Victoria
if you don't believe me. They sound great and are
hand-made like an old Fender w/o the collector's
value. But they are still pretty expensive). Same
goes double for the guitars(Subway Guitars in Berkeley
makes the best "JizzCasters" and "Fuzzrites" that even
a musician could afford!). The re-issue Fenders look
a lot like the originals, but cost quite a bit of
money and don't last nearly as long. Has anyone
noticed that RI jazzmasters don't have a P/U anything
like the originals when you take the cover off?
People who buy those are just paying for the Fender
look and will need to dump quite a few bucks into 'em
to make 'em even close to the originals.
You guys will have to excuse me while I continue to
rant, but that is what you're here for to get useful
advice, right? And this advice will probably save you
the heartache of getting . . . dare I say it . . . THE
WRONG GUITAR FOR YOU. If it were up to me, which it
is not, I'd have all the people who've been hoarding
these beautiful classic Fender instruments (people
with 10+ guitars) give-up these "Collectors Items."
They aren't stamps or coins or fabrije eggs, they are
instruments designed to be played! The whole vintage
guitar business just stinks. People have assigned
value to instruments that should only have value to
players. Guitar stores piece together vintage parts
and pass off a 70's parts Fender as the real thing to
squeeze some bucks out of their customers. Guitars
aren't paintings to be hung on the wall! I guess some
lawyers and business types could afford to, but what
about the rest of us musicians? I'm tryin' real hard
not to sound whiney, but I think there is a serious
problem here which just can't be fixed as long as
people stay so greedy.
As for me, I'll use the gear I think sounds the best
that I can afford. This is not to say that we should
all just close our eyes and randomly choose a guitar
until we find a good sounding one, when shopping. I
like my guitars to match my style. However, I am very
frugal and will not pay a ton of money for a guitar
just because it has a brand name on it. Fenders and
Gibsons just aren't what they use to be . . . in my
humble opinion. In fact, new Fenders seem way over
priced and unreliable.
Damon
--- Jerry <> wrote:
> Hello Guys,
>
>
>
> Please don't get me wrong here, but I don't get the
> term "Fender Nazis".
>
>
>
>
> I'm just wandering, Why Fender Nazis ? ...
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Jerry S. from Belgium
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Again, I don't see what all this hoopla is about. Go back and read the past
messages. Nobody was being a snob about Fender guitars, or looking down on
non-Fender owners. I was very surprised to see this thread start up and I
don't know why it is still going. I just don't understand.
You are correct of course, buy the guitar that you like and can afford.
Don't be swayed by name brands or other people. I don't think anyone is
arguing with you.
[rant elided]
> Has anyone
> noticed that RI jazzmasters don't have a P/U anything
> like the originals when you take the cover off?
> People who buy those are just paying for the Fender
> look and will need to dump quite a few bucks into 'em
> to make 'em even close to the originals.
This is true for the Japanese reissues that were made in the mid-80's to
early 90's. The pickups underneath the wide cover are more like strat
pickups, and lots of people immediately swap them out. However, the American
Vintage series reissues supposedly have pickups very close to the original
(the same wide, flat design).
I guess I'm going to sound off here now.
Fender is definitely not what it used to be...it's
still a business, and the point of any business is to
make money. Comparatively you pay as much money for a
MIA Fender now as you did back in the 60's, only now
you're not quite getting what you paid for as opposed
to back then. I think that has more to do with the
direction business, manufacturing, and more
specifically marketing has taken America than anything
else. You could say the same thing about ANY consumer
product in this country, from waffle-makers right up
to automobiles, and people do so on a regular basis.
As for how much Fender charges for its instruments,
I'll say (being the owner of two Fender instruments)
they're definitely kind of kicking back on their
laurels and the fact that they're "Fender"...but
they're not the only guitar company you can say that
about either.
I own an American '62 Precision bass reissue, and I
paid quite a chunk of change for it even after getting
it at about $400 below retail price. People will
always argue that for the money brand X is better, but
after cruising around, asking around and trying
everything I could lay my hands on, I can honestly say
that I don't feel my own Fender to be anything at all
less than anything else you'd pay the same money for
quality-wise, and I don't experience the envy when
picking up other new bass' after owning it the way I
did when I was playing my $100 pawn shop special
(which there's nothing wrong with.)
The lower-end Fenders, the Mexican and especially the
Japanese made ones, are, I think, a real good deal for
the money you pay.
But you can play anything with any guitar. A lot of
the reason people pay more money for anything is
image, but that's not to necessarily mean it's soley
for the purpose of image. It got that way for a
reason, right? But you don't have to have anything.
I'd say maybe half the great surf albums I listen to
are Fenders...the other half are a multitude of other
brands that sounded just as good and that the people
could afford at the time.
~R
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On Wed, 8 May 2002, Richard Hawes wrote:
> I guess I'm going to sound off here now.
> Fender is definitely not what it used to be...it's
> still a business, and the point of any business is to
> make money. Comparatively you pay as much money for a
> MIA Fender now as you did back in the 60's, only now
> you're not quite getting what you paid for as opposed
> to back then.
This was said by several people by now, and I must strongly disagree. I
own three US-made Strats, two from the late '80s and one from the
mid-'90s, and they are great guitars, as good or better than any of the
vintage Fenders that I played. I think Fender is doing a GREAT job, and I
just want to know how all of you are coming to a conclusion that the
guitars aren't as good as they used to be.
> I think that has more to do with the
> direction business, manufacturing, and more
> specifically marketing has taken America than anything
> else. You could say the same thing about ANY consumer
> product in this country, from waffle-makers right up
> to automobiles, and people do so on a regular basis.
Yes, people do, but are they right? I'd much rather have a new car, with
a fuel-injected engine, better fuel consumption, AC, power windows, locks,
airbags, etc. I think many US companies lost their way in the '70s, but
that's not the case anymore from everything I see.
> As for how much Fender charges for its instruments,
> I'll say (being the owner of two Fender instruments)
> they're definitely kind of kicking back on their
> laurels and the fact that they're "Fender"...
On which basis can you make this statement?
> I own an American '62 Precision bass reissue, and I
> paid quite a chunk of change for it even after getting
> it at about $400 below retail price. People will
> always argue that for the money brand X is better, but
> after cruising around, asking around and trying
> everything I could lay my hands on, I can honestly say
> that I don't feel my own Fender to be anything at all
> less than anything else you'd pay the same money for
> quality-wise, and I don't experience the envy when
> picking up other new bass' after owning it the way I
> did when I was playing my $100 pawn shop special
> (which there's nothing wrong with.)
Well, then you just contradicted your above statements.
> The lower-end Fenders, the Mexican and especially the
> Japanese made ones, are, I think, a real good deal for
> the money you pay.
I have a Japanese '95 Limited Edition Jazzmaster, which is a very good
guitar (after changing the pickups). I love playing it, and it sounds
great.
> I'd say maybe half the great surf albums I listen to
> are Fenders...the other half are a multitude of other
> brands that sounded just as good and that the people
> could afford at the time.
I bet you that the ratio of Fender-played surf albums is a LOT more than
50/50 - more like 95/5.
Ivan
I own three US-made Strats, two from the late '80s and one from the
mid-'90s, and they are great guitars, as good or better than any of
the vintage Fenders that I played.
Ivan,
What kind of pickups do you have in your strats? I'm thinking of
changing my Gold Lace Sensors to something with a bit more sparkle.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mike/USK
--- IVAN PONGRACIC <> wrote:
<I think Fender is doing a GREAT job, and I just want
to know how all of you are coming to a conclusion that
the guitars aren't as good as they used to be.>
This is something that always gets argued into the
ground and I really don't have enough experience with
vintage guitars to make a quantifiable, "They don't
make 'em like they used to" statement...I think it was
Dick Dale that said following that statement, "...they
never did." But I've seen a number of vintage's that
have held up very well with time and still felt and
played fantastic...but I'll admit I was only spouting
opinion. I'm not anti-Fender by any means. The only
instruments I own are Fenders.
<I'd much rather have a new car, with a fuel-injected
engine, better fuel consumption, AC, power windows,
locks, airbags, etc.>
That's a good point.
> > As for how much Fender charges for its
> instruments,
> > I'll say (being the owner of two Fender
> instruments)
> > they're definitely kind of kicking back on their
> > laurels and the fact that they're "Fender"...
>
> On which basis can you make this statement?
I wasn't singling Fender out. I think all notable
companies do that to a certain extent. You have to
admit that automatic, American classic brand
recognition has its perks.
> Well, then you just contradicted your above
statements.
Again, I didn't mean to say that "You pay too much for
a Fender guitar." I was saying that for the same
amount of money Fenders are on par with pretty much
any other guitar on the market. Considering the
budget of the average player and how much/seriously
they actually play, you couldn't blame someone for
thinking that you simply can't put that much money
into a top dollar instrument. Part of my point, which
led to my following statement, is that if you want an
American made Fender, you're going to pay...the
standard models can be had a lot cheaper, but if you
want the best, you're going to PAY for the best, like
anything else I've ever gotten into. It's debateable
to many whether or not it's worth spending that much
money on an instrument period. Obviously I think so,
because I did.
> I have a Japanese '95 Limited Edition Jazzmaster,
> which is a very good
> guitar (after changing the pickups). I love playing
> it, and it sounds
> great.
I have a Vista series Jagmaster which is made of the
same stuff, and with stock pups I think it sounds
great, and I'll probably never replace it. I paid
about a third of what I didn't for my MIA pbass.
> I bet you that the ratio of Fender-played surf
> albums is a LOT more than
> 50/50 - more like 95/5.
I dunno, there were a lot of Kays and Danos and even
some Gibsons and Ricks on some of the albums I've
seen. My "half" statement was admittedly off the
cuff...I haven't really taken a count...but I don't
know if I'd go so far as to say 95/5 unless you only
count the real hit stuff from the early '60's, but
(and please note, I'm not trying to slam Fender or
imply that they used any method other than building
great guitars to achieve their popularity) a lot of
bands got Fender endoresement deals as well (and
again, I'd like to reiterate that that's not the only
reason people played them.) There were also a lot of
bands that played less expensive stuff earlier on and
then went for the Fenders later.
I apologize if anybody took offense to any of my
statements.
~R
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On Wed, 8 May 2002, urbansurfkings wrote:
> What kind of pickups do you have in your strats? I'm thinking of
> changing my Gold Lace Sensors to something with a bit more sparkle.
> Any suggestions?
Quite honestly, my favorite pickups are the stock '62 reissue Strat
pickups. I have those in a late '80s '62 reissue that's my current
favorite - love that guitar. I have a mid-'90s '62 reissue into which I
stuck Seymour Duncan Alnico II Pros, and they are beautiful pickups, but
maybe a bit too soft. They definitely smooth out some of the harshness
of Fender amps played at full volume. My fiesta red Strat Plus used to
have Gold Lace Sensors, but I swapped those out a few years ago with
Fender's Texas Specials, as (I think) Brian rightly pointed out. The
improvement was huge! However, I find that Texas Specials are a bit too
dark for many uses, though I got great results with them in many
situation. On Tsar Wars, several songs were recorded with the Strat with
the Texas Specials: Escape From Gulag 17, The Crusher, Cossack Rocket
Patrol, Space Race, Tradewinds, and Departure. In addition, all of the
stuff I recorded for the New World Relampagos was with that same Strat
(but exclusively through Vox amps, no Fenders). Hopefully, you can get
some idea of what those pickups sound like. I think you can't go wrong
with any of these three, but I've really learned to appreciate just the
stock reissue pickups - they're fantastic! Disclaimer: other people that
hear me play say that the Strat with Alnico II Pros sounds the best, and
I think those pickups definitely get the most respect. And they are
fantastic, but maybe just not as powerful as the stock ones. Hope that
helps.
Ivan
On Wed, 8 May 2002, IVAN PONGRACIC wrote:
> On Wed, 8 May 2002, urbansurfkings wrote:
>
> > What kind of pickups do you have in your strats? I'm thinking of
> > changing my Gold Lace Sensors to something with a bit more sparkle.
> > Any suggestions?
>
> My fiesta red Strat Plus used to
> have Gold Lace Sensors, but I swapped those out a few years ago with
> Fender's Texas Specials, as (I think) Brian rightly pointed out. The
> improvement was huge! However, I find that Texas Specials are a bit too
> dark for many uses, though I got great results with them in many
> situation. On Tsar Wars, several songs were recorded with the Strat with
> the Texas Specials: Escape From Gulag 17, The Crusher, Cossack Rocket
> Patrol, Space Race, Tradewinds, and Departure. In addition, all of the
> stuff I recorded for the New World Relampagos was with that same Strat
> (but exclusively through Vox amps, no Fenders). Hopefully, you can get
> some idea of what those pickups sound like.
I thought of a few more things that you might find useful to check out the
differences in sound of the pickups. All of the Space Cossacks first CD
was recorded with the Strat Plus with Gold Lace Sensors, but otherwise,
everything was the same as on the second CD. So, you can compare the
guitar tones a bit and maybe get some idea of the differences. (Actually,
several songs were recorded with a Jazzmaster: Solaris Stomp, Moroccan
Adventures, Black Sand, Gunmetal Express, The Spy Satellite). On Tsar
Wars, The Jewel of Duende was also recorded with the Texas Specials. On
Jazzmaster were: Tsunami Tsurprise, The Defector and Fiesta Del
Cossacapulco. So, the remainder were on the two '62 reissues (I got them
both towards the end of the recording of the album): Sea of Tranquility,
Tsar Wars, Beyond the Third Star, Exolumina, and The Apes of Wrath.
I don't hear a huge difference between the different pickups on the
recordings, but the feel when playing seems quite pronounced to me. I
think I was able to get some good tones with Lace Sensors, though I
wouldn't recommend those pickups. In addition, Phil Dirt seems to think I
sound the best on Solaris Stomp, and that was the only song that I
recorded with the stock Japanese reissue Jazzmaster pickups, which
everybody says are awful! I agree they are very harsh, but again, if you
adjust the tone on the amp, and adjust your playing style, you can get a
lemonade out of a lemon.
Sorry for the excruciating detail...
Ivan
PS Oh, you can hear my guitar with Alnico II Pros on three tracks, all on
the Monster Party 2000 CD: the Space Cossacks track plus the two Madeira
tracks. A much smoother sound...
On Wed, 8 May 2002, Richard Hawes wrote:
> > I bet you that the ratio of Fender-played surf
> > albums is a LOT more than
> > 50/50 - more like 95/5.
>
> I dunno, there were a lot of Kays and Danos and even
> some Gibsons and Ricks on some of the albums I've
> seen. My "half" statement was admittedly off the
> cuff...I haven't really taken a count...but I don't
> know if I'd go so far as to say 95/5 unless you only
> count the real hit stuff from the early '60's, but
> (and please note, I'm not trying to slam Fender or
> imply that they used any method other than building
> great guitars to achieve their popularity) a lot of
> bands got Fender endoresement deals as well (and
> again, I'd like to reiterate that that's not the only
> reason people played them.) There were also a lot of
> bands that played less expensive stuff earlier on and
> then went for the Fenders later.
Yes, without a doubt a lot of the surf gutarists of the first wave played
other instruments when starting, and some of them even recorded with
them. But if you look at the stuff that defined the genre: DD, the
Astronauts, The Pyramids, Richie Allen, The Lively Ones, The Chantays
(with the exception of Pipeline, which was supposedly recorded with cheapo
stuff), the Belairs, Eddie & the Showmen, the Challengers, The Surfaris,
etc., etc., it's ALL Fender!! I can't think of any of the players in
these bands playing anything but Fender guitars and amps. Given that this
was teen music, there were some bands of really young guys that recorded a
few singles or maybe even an album that couldn't yet afford Fenders. But
I'm hard pressed to think of one definitive surf song outside of Pipeline
that was not recorded with Fender guitars. Johnny Fortune used a Gretsch,
and the Revels guitarist probably used a Gretsch or a Gibson. The
Sentinels guitarist maybe used a Gibons, but only on their second album
which was not surfy at all, more like R&B - I think he used a Strat on
Latinia and Big Surf, etc. Some of those other R&B-influenced bands
(surf-soul), like Jim Waller & the Deltas maybe didn't use Fenders, but
they were also more sax-driven. But none of these bands would define the
surf sound in any way, IMHO.
> I apologize if anybody took offense to any of my
> statements.
No, no, Richard, no offense, just a discussion! There is no problem at
all....
Ivan
One more quick point...
On Wed, 8 May 2002, Richard Hawes wrote:
> Fender is definitely not what it used to be...it's
> still a business, and the point of any business is to
> make money.
Yes. And business make money by satisfying the customer! Fender made a
TON of money until '65, which is why it was sold for a ton of money -
during the golden era they satisfied the customers very well. They LOST a
ton of money through the '70s and the early '80s, cause they weren't
making very good products, and almost went bankrupt as a result. When
they were bought out in '85 by a group of private investors they started
making a ton of money again - because they started satisfying the
customers again. I hate this notion that because businesses are in it
for a profit, the consumer gets screwed - it's just flat wrong. That's
possible in the short run, but it is NOT a sustainable long run
strategy. A business that's doing that won't be around for long, but I
think all of us would agree that Fender looks to be around for a long time
to come. It's a very healthy company, and I think most of us are very
happy about it. Here's to huge profits for Fender for a long time to
come!
Ivan
Not to beat this issue like a dead horse, but I agree with Ivan on
this. Every company is in business to make money - otherwise, they'd
be OUT of business. What helps the good companies stay in business
are things like good products and good customer service. Maybe FMIC
isn't perfect in all regards, but what company is?
I'm happy to report that I've just made my annual contribution to
increasing Fender profits by ordering my first Fender guitar - a '62
RI Jaguar! Yup, it took me a long time to save up for it, but that's
how I want to spend my hard earned pesos. I've been lusting after a
Jag since I first started playing (over 20 years ago, off & on -
*gulp*), and I finally made the plunge (no water/surf pun intended).
With my 40th birthday right around the corner, maybe it's my "mid-
life crisis" purchase . . . whoo-hoo! Hey, it keeps me off the
streets . . .
-Dick
--- In SurfGuitar101@y..., IVAN PONGRACIC <ipongrac@g...> wrote:
> I hate this notion that because businesses are in it
> for a profit, the consumer gets screwed - it's just flat wrong.
That's
> possible in the short run, but it is NOT a sustainable long run
> strategy. A business that's doing that won't be around for long,
but I
> think all of us would agree that Fender looks to be around for a
long time
> to come. It's a very healthy company, and I think most of us are
very
> happy about it. Here's to huge profits for Fender for a long time
to
> come!
>
> Ivan
