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Jerry S. said that he always works up the rhythm guitar parts on songs when
learning them. The rhythm guitar parts are the hardest parts for me to
figure out. Does anyone have any tips? I do pretty good at picking out the
lead parts. But many times the rhythm guitar eludes me. I don't know how
people figure out Shadows or Atlantics songs...!
The rhythm guitar is often buried in the mix, the chords are strummed so
fast, and/or its hard to pick up on subtleties like minors or 7ths, etc.
Sometimes I have had success by listening to the bass line. Any other
suggestions?
I'd also take any suggestions on how to do the "chunking" parts, ala the
Astronauts or The Nebulas (I do believe the Nebulas have revived this long
lost art form). Is it just the root notes of the chords, root & 5th, or
what? Is the rhythm usually straight 8th notes or are other patterns
employed? It sounds so damn good but it's deceptively difficult. With all
that reverb splash and sproinging going on it sometimes makes it hard to
hear the exact rhythm (at least for me).
I also realize the answer to all my questions may just be "practice more and
you'll get it".
Thanks,
BN
What a great question! I am very interested to learn more about this
also.
Dano?
--- In , "Brian Neal" <bneal@z...> wrote:
> Jerry S. said that he always works up the rhythm guitar parts on
songs when
> learning them. The rhythm guitar parts are the hardest parts for me to
> figure out. Does anyone have any tips? I do pretty good at picking
out the
> lead parts. But many times the rhythm guitar eludes me. I don't know how
> people figure out Shadows or Atlantics songs...!
>
> The rhythm guitar is often buried in the mix, the chords are strummed so
> fast, and/or its hard to pick up on subtleties like minors or 7ths, etc.
> Sometimes I have had success by listening to the bass line. Any other
> suggestions?
>
> I'd also take any suggestions on how to do the "chunking" parts, ala the
> Astronauts or The Nebulas (I do believe the Nebulas have revived
this long
> lost art form). Is it just the root notes of the chords, root & 5th, or
> what? Is the rhythm usually straight 8th notes or are other patterns
> employed? It sounds so damn good but it's deceptively difficult.
With all
> that reverb splash and sproinging going on it sometimes makes it hard to
> hear the exact rhythm (at least for me).
>
> I also realize the answer to all my questions may just be "practice
more and
> you'll get it".
>
> Thanks,
> BN
Thanks for picking up on this Bo. I was afraid this thread would die.
Anyone? Ferenc? Dano? Mel? Can I coax Ivan out of lurk mode?
And yes, TooFastJim, you are right. The Woodies, The Fathoms, & The Pilgrims
all brought back the "chunkin'" in all its glory. The Cossacks also put it
to great use on occassion. But you Nebulas guys are carrying the torch!!!!
:)
Can you imagine the modern Dick Dale with a rhythm guitar player backing him
up? Or does he play to freely and jammy now so this wouldn't work? Thoughts?
BN
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lookdenfer [mailto:]
...
>
> What a great question! I am very interested to learn more about this
> also.
>
> Dano?
>
> --- In , "Brian Neal" <bneal@z...> wrote:
> > Jerry S. said that he always works up the rhythm guitar parts on
> songs when
> > learning them. The rhythm guitar parts are the hardest parts for me to
> > figure out. Does anyone have any tips? I do pretty good at picking
> out the
> > lead parts. But many times the rhythm guitar eludes me. I don't know how
> > people figure out Shadows or Atlantics songs...!
> >
> > The rhythm guitar is often buried in the mix, the chords are strummed so
> > fast, and/or its hard to pick up on subtleties like minors or 7ths, etc.
> > Sometimes I have had success by listening to the bass line. Any other
> > suggestions?
> >
> > I'd also take any suggestions on how to do the "chunking" parts, ala the
> > Astronauts or The Nebulas (I do believe the Nebulas have revived
> this long
> > lost art form). Is it just the root notes of the chords, root & 5th, or
> > what? Is the rhythm usually straight 8th notes or are other patterns
> > employed? It sounds so damn good but it's deceptively difficult.
> With all
> > that reverb splash and sproinging going on it sometimes makes it hard to
> > hear the exact rhythm (at least for me).
> >
> > I also realize the answer to all my questions may just be "practice
> more and
> > you'll get it".
> >
> > Thanks,
> > BN
I find the "chunkin" sounds best as palm muted eighth notes on the root.
Goes well with a ride cymbal on the eighths, too. Variations include
throwing in triplet accents, or playing the whole part double-picked.
For a five piece band, like the Astronauts, one guy plays the chunk/drip
line, and one plays the ringing accent chords. In a four piece band, it's
sometimes possible to play both lines at once. Ferenc does this on the Mach
IV song "What's in the trunk, Harry?" (MP3 available on our website)
Over and out,
Mel
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Neal [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 6:31 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Rhythm Guitar / Chords / Chunking
Thanks for picking up on this Bo. I was afraid this thread would die.
Anyone? Ferenc? Dano? Mel? Can I coax Ivan out of lurk mode?
And yes, TooFastJim, you are right. The Woodies, The Fathoms, & The
Pilgrims
all brought back the "chunkin'" in all its glory. The Cossacks also put it
to great use on occassion. But you Nebulas guys are carrying the torch!!!!
:)
Can you imagine the modern Dick Dale with a rhythm guitar player backing
him
up? Or does he play to freely and jammy now so this wouldn't work?
Thoughts?
BN
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lookdenfer [mailto:]
...
>
> What a great question! I am very interested to learn more about this
> also.
>
> Dano?
>
> --- In , "Brian Neal" <bneal@z...> wrote:
> > Jerry S. said that he always works up the rhythm guitar parts on
> songs when
> > learning them. The rhythm guitar parts are the hardest parts for me to
> > figure out. Does anyone have any tips? I do pretty good at picking
> out the
> > lead parts. But many times the rhythm guitar eludes me. I don't know
how
> > people figure out Shadows or Atlantics songs...!
> >
> > The rhythm guitar is often buried in the mix, the chords are strummed
so
> > fast, and/or its hard to pick up on subtleties like minors or 7ths,
etc.
> > Sometimes I have had success by listening to the bass line. Any other
> > suggestions?
> >
> > I'd also take any suggestions on how to do the "chunking" parts, ala
the
> > Astronauts or The Nebulas (I do believe the Nebulas have revived
> this long
> > lost art form). Is it just the root notes of the chords, root & 5th,
or
> > what? Is the rhythm usually straight 8th notes or are other patterns
> > employed? It sounds so damn good but it's deceptively difficult.
> With all
> > that reverb splash and sproinging going on it sometimes makes it hard
to
> > hear the exact rhythm (at least for me).
> >
> > I also realize the answer to all my questions may just be "practice
> more and
> > you'll get it".
> >
> > Thanks,
> > BN
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> Can I coax Ivan out of lurk mode?
Sure, why not....
> The Cossacks also put it to great use on occassion.
Thank you. I think we used it on a few songs: Neutron Sabre and the
Defector come to mind. Oh, also our version of Journey To the Stars
on the Swingin' Creepers. BTW, Mark, our rhythm guitarist, often
played some variation of this rhythm on many of the songs, but the
three songs I listed above actually had three guitar parts, where one
was dedicated to just 'chunkin''. I played that part in all three
cases - just overdubbed it. After I got used to hearing it like that
recorded, I never liked playing it live, since we couldn't reproduce
all three parts, and it always seemed empty! And BTW, I'm not really
happy how it sounds on Neutron Sabre, I didn't really have a good
handle on the technique and the sound yet - I think it's much better
on the other two songs. I just remembered, too - by the end of these
songs, my wrist would be KILLING me! Very demanding and painful!
Mel already explained the basics of 'chunkin'' quite well. 8th
notes, with occasional syncopation. The greatest influence on me as
far as 'chunkin'' goes were obviously the Astronauts, but also the
Fathoms. I thought they did it so incredibly well (it was after I
saw the Fathoms play that I went out and bought a Jazzmaster, though
I'm a dedicated Strat guy - they just completely turned my head
around). The Nebulas do it extremely well, too. Looking forward to
hearing it live in person in Indy in July! ;)
The secrets to 'chunkin'' are: 1) Jag or Jazzmaster on the middle
pickup setting (I always used a Jazzmaster) - Strats don't work well
for this sound; 2) obviously, reverb turned up high - I used 6-6-6;
3) this is what Evan Foster of the Boss Martians taught me: MUST turn
up the treble on the amp, since that's where the 'ping' (the
waterwell-like sound) lives - of course, you can easily overdo it,
and you can't really use this same sound to play DD-like double-
picking parts, because with all that treble, you WILL bore into
people's eardrums in a very unpleasant way; 4) palm muting - the
muting will diminish the attack of all that treble, making the part
stand out as well as let the reverb ring - it has to be just right,
where the note has enough 'body', but no sustain. Must use your
ears! 5) an absolutely impeccable sense of rhythm, and a wrist to
pull it off - neither of these is optional. Your wrist must have the
precision of a swiss clock, or it's going to be a mess. As a surf
guitarist you don't have to have the ability to play fast scales or
fancy chords, but you MUST have great timing and a perfect right
hand. As Rip of the Penetrators noted many times, it's not an
accident that it's almost all men that play surf lead guitar -
certain single guy, ahem, "recreational activities" improve the wrist
strength. :)
As far as the strummed chords from the Shadows and the Atlantics go,
well, Brian, this is one of the trickiest things that I ever had to
deal with as well! It's hard, for sure, especially on the Atlantics'
recordings which were not recorded very well, and you can sometimes
barely hear the rhythm guitar. Basically, it's a trial-and-error
approach. You have to use your ears, listen to the bass lines for
guidance, and just try a few things playing along with it, and see if
you got it. It's usually quite time-intensive. I could spend hours
figuring out the chords for some of those songs. In the Troubadours
even after having played these Shadows songs for almost forty years
my father still stumbles upon 'more correct' chords in some songs.
He's always trying to track down the Shadows' sheet music, too, to
see the chords. But trying to figure out rhythm guitar parts will
really give your ears a workout, and will definitely make you a
better musician. I love the rhythm guitar, and I think it's truly a
lost art. There aren't many good rhythm guitarists playing in surf
music today, cause in many ways it's much more challenging than the
lead guitar. It's not an accident that Dave Wronski was happy to
play rhythm guitar in Jon & the Nightriders for so many years. Greg
from the Fathoms is also a very accomplished lead guitarist, and even
Frankie once admitted to me that Greg's at least as good as him, if
not even better. Spanky of the Penetrators specializes in rhythm
guitar and he's quite excellent, too. All the Satan's Pilgrims guys
are very good at both lead and rhythm, and they switched around quite
a bit. Mark of the Space Cossacks is also an excellent lead guitar
player. You must know both to be a well-rounded musician.
Anyway, I hope this helps a little bit.
Ivan
PS DD today is a total wanker - an army of 'chunkin'' guitarists
wouldn't save him. (sorry - my rant for the day)
--- In , "Brian Neal" <bneal@z...> wrote:
> Thanks for picking up on this Bo. I was afraid this thread would
die.
> Anyone? Ferenc? Dano? Mel? Can I coax Ivan out of lurk mode?
>
> And yes, TooFastJim, you are right. The Woodies, The Fathoms, & The
Pilgrims
> all brought back the "chunkin'" in all its glory. The Cossacks also
put it
> to great use on occassion. But you Nebulas guys are carrying the
torch!!!!
> :)
>
> Can you imagine the modern Dick Dale with a rhythm guitar player
backing him
> up? Or does he play to freely and jammy now so this wouldn't work?
Thoughts?
>
> BN
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lookdenfer [mailto:bstruye@i...]
> ...
> >
> > What a great question! I am very interested to learn more about
this
> > also.
> >
> > Dano?
> >
> > --- In , "Brian Neal" <bneal@z...>
wrote:
> > > Jerry S. said that he always works up the rhythm guitar parts on
> > songs when
> > > learning them. The rhythm guitar parts are the hardest parts
for me to
> > > figure out. Does anyone have any tips? I do pretty good at
picking
> > out the
> > > lead parts. But many times the rhythm guitar eludes me. I don't
know how
> > > people figure out Shadows or Atlantics songs...!
> > >
> > > The rhythm guitar is often buried in the mix, the chords are
strummed so
> > > fast, and/or its hard to pick up on subtleties like minors or
7ths, etc.
> > > Sometimes I have had success by listening to the bass line. Any
other
> > > suggestions?
> > >
> > > I'd also take any suggestions on how to do the "chunking"
parts, ala the
> > > Astronauts or The Nebulas (I do believe the Nebulas have revived
> > this long
> > > lost art form). Is it just the root notes of the chords, root &
5th, or
> > > what? Is the rhythm usually straight 8th notes or are other
patterns
> > > employed? It sounds so damn good but it's deceptively difficult.
> > With all
> > > that reverb splash and sproinging going on it sometimes makes
it hard to
> > > hear the exact rhythm (at least for me).
> > >
> > > I also realize the answer to all my questions may just
be "practice
> > more and
> > > you'll get it".
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > BN
Hey Brian and crew...
First, I want to thank Brian for getting this list going and keeping it
fresh. Ivan made a lot of great points, so I'm going to build off of some of
the things he said. A little background on my approach to playing rhythm: I
was a drummer for 17 years before I ever picked up a guitar. A lot of the
rhythms I play are based on basic drum rudiments and timing. Nothing crazy
like a double-paradiddle-diddle, but a lot of triplet action where it fits,
what I feel is the guitar-version of the falam, and mostly 8th notes. The
key to playing rhythm is knowing how to COUNT! (But I think thats the key to
almost all music...)
On to the good stuff:
"I just remembered, too - by the end of these songs, my wrist would be
KILLING me! Very demanding and painful!"
ABSOLUTELY. This couldn't be spoken more true. Sometimes you can get away
with up and down picking while muting, but to keep consistency in the
'beats", its mostly downstroking. "Surf Party' is a perfect example of this.
To torture me The Nebulas will play "Surf Party" and then seque right into
"Morpheus". By the time we're done, the look on my face is more indicative
of getting a bullet removed from my inner thigh than finishing up a song.
>
>Mel already explained the basics of 'chunkin'' quite well. 8th
>notes, with occasional syncopation. The greatest influence on me as
>far as 'chunkin'' goes were obviously the Astronauts, but also the
>Fathoms. I thought they did it so incredibly well (it was after I
>saw the Fathoms play that I went out and bought a Jazzmaster, though
>I'm a dedicated Strat guy - they just completely turned my head
>around). The Nebulas do it extremely well, too. Looking forward to
>hearing it live in person in Indy in July! ;)
Thanks Ivan! The Astronauts are absolutely the ultimate chunkers as far as
I'm concerned, and they're the benchmark by which all other are measured.
>
>The secrets to 'chunkin'' are: 1) Jag or Jazzmaster on the middle
>pickup setting (I always used a Jazzmaster) - Strats don't work well
>for this sound; 2) obviously, reverb turned up high - I used 6-6-6;
>3) this is what Evan Foster of the Boss Martians taught me: MUST turn
>up the treble on the amp, since that's where the 'ping' (the
>waterwell-like sound) lives - of course, you can easily overdo it,
>and you can't really use this same sound to play DD-like double-
>picking parts, because with all that treble, you WILL bore into
>people's eardrums in a very unpleasant way; 4) palm muting - the
>muting will diminish the attack of all that treble, making the part
>stand out as well as let the reverb ring - it has to be just right,
>where the note has enough 'body', but no sustain. Must use your
>ears! 5) an absolutely impeccable sense of rhythm, and a wrist to
>pull it off - neither of these is optional. Your wrist must have the
>precision of a swiss clock, or it's going to be a mess. As a surf
>guitarist you don't have to have the ability to play fast scales or
>fancy chords, but you MUST have great timing and a perfect right
>hand. As Rip of the Penetrators noted many times, it's not an
>accident that it's almost all men that play surf lead guitar -
>certain single guy, ahem, "recreational activities" improve the wrist
>strength. :)
>
These are beautiful words. They too are all right on for the most part.
The way I do it is with my Jag is to keep both pickups on, and my tank on
7-7-5. I can't say for sure what the settings on my Showman are as far as
bass/mid/treble go, because it's moodier than Anna Nicole Smith on an
"off-day". It has to be "recalibrated" as I call it every time the barometer
jumps. (Not exactly but you get the picture...One of these days I'll get it
looked at, but it just sounds so damn good when its dialled in)
The timing is key, and thats where the 17 years of drumming comes in (and
keeping a steady regiment of that "other" recreational activity Rip speaks
of). The intricacies of it come in with "type" of chunk. There's the single
string dribble (a la Astronauts), the two-string power-chord chunk (most
popular) and then theres the full-chord chunk, which is basic syncopation
between the lead and drums using the E-A-D-G strings all muted down. Thats
where that really full chunk sound comes from. It requires a lot of volume
awareness and discipline, because if those chords become unmuted and you
really lay into them and let it ring out, it can be lethal.
From there its ALL in right-hand technique. The physical difficulty I
found hardest to overcome was being able to keep the chunking going and
being able to modulate the amount of mute at the same time.
Expect some serious burn in your right forearm. SERIOUS burn.
There's definitely a free-form feel to it. You have to feel when it's
right to pour on the juice, and when to lay back because you don't want to
crowd the lead. You must be aware that you're basically an alternate form of
the Maraca. You're a support instrument and you should try to augment the
drums and bridge the gap between the lead and the bass. Thats my mindset
anyways.
The song I think emphasizes this in the most incredible way is Solaris
Stomp by The Space Cossacks. To me that rhythm part at the beginning is just
unbelievable. JUST the right amount of subtlety but the right amount of
"sack" to drive the song. AWESOME!
That's my take on rhythm guitar. We now return you to our regularly
scheduled programming...
-Dano
-=The Nebulas=-
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
Excellent stuff, Dano!! You really filled out all the holes I left
off. I couldn't add anything else.
> The song I think emphasizes this in the most incredible way is
Solaris
> Stomp by The Space Cossacks. To me that rhythm part at the
beginning is just
> unbelievable. JUST the right amount of subtlety but the right
amount of "sack" to drive the song. AWESOME!
Thanks, man! Very nice of you. Just to tie this in with my earlier
points, we recorded Solaris Stomp within a month of the first time we
played with the Fathoms. We've been playing around with the song for
a while, and it used to have an arrangement that sounded similar
to "Neutron Sabre" - so, more of the Dick Dale/Miserlou/Hava Nagila
beat. I grew quite dissatisfied with it, and after seeing the
Fathoms had an epiphany. As I mentioned, I bought the Jazzmaster,
and rearranged the song, basing it much more on the smoother sound of
the Jazzmaster with flatwounds (and playing it in lower registers
than I did originally, I think). Changed the syncopated beat to the
steady, smooth surf-beat - in fact, I remember playing "XKE" by the
Boss Martians to Doug (drummer) when we first tried playing the new
arrangement to explain to him what I wanted - I just loved how that
song moved along - though I think he played a simpler part than on
XKE. And the last thing I did was add that intro which was TOTALLY
Fathoms - at least in my mind. There's a lot to be said about
ripping off... err, I mean, being INSPIRED by other bands. Yeah,
that's it! :) We recorded that in January of '97, on the same date
that yielded Neutron Sabre and Shark Attack from that split EP with
the Penetrators. We rerecorded Neutron Sabre when we were recording
the first album in September of '97, and we tried to rerecord Solaris
Stomp, too - but the new version just lacked that special something
that the original recording had, so we just used the original for the
album, too. It was just a beautiful confluence of factors. The
first time that I used my (Jap) Jazzmaster on a recording session,
too. Oh, and my reverb tank was a reissue, but BEFORE I made the
usual mods, so it was completely original. Oh yeah, the pickups in
the Jazzmaster were also the original Jap pickups! Go figure.
People still point to that song as my best recorded authentic trad
tone - and I was using crappy pickups AND an unmodded reissue reverb
tank! It can be done, apparently... (Soon after that session, I
switched to Seymour Duncan pickups and had the mods made, including
the NOS tubes - and never again sounded as good! :)
Postscript: if you will please indulge me while I brag for a second.
We were really interested in having Deke Dickerson produce our first
album, cause, well, cause Deke is God! That man knows sound, and
knows guitar. I got in touch with him, and he wanted to hear what we
sounded like, so I sent him those early tracks. I was so proud when
I heard back from him - paraphrasing, he said something like "Solaris
Stomp is an ultimate surf song"!! (he wasn't as thrilled by the
other two, but no need to talk about that. :)) You could have
knocked me over with a feather. That was cool. If he only knew -
Jap pickups and unmodded reissue reverb tanks! It would have been
quite costly to have him come to Washington to produce us, so he just
told us to try to make the album sound like Solaris Stomp, and we'll
be fine. A great guy.
Ivan
...Just met the man for the first time last Thursday. I rounded up Eric our
bass player and said "Hey lets go check out Deke!" so off we went. It was a
great time. Bass player got a little overzealous on his upright and dropped
the bridge off it midsong. So Deke stood there hammering out bass player
jokes while he the bass player put his instrument back together. It was fun.
-D
>Postscript: if you will please indulge me while I brag for a second.
>We were really interested in having Deke Dickerson produce our first
>album, cause, well, cause Deke is God! That man knows sound, and
>knows guitar. I got in touch with him, and he wanted to hear what we
>sounded like, so I sent him those early tracks. I was so proud when
>I heard back from him - paraphrasing, he said something like "Solaris
>Stomp is an ultimate surf song"!! (he wasn't as thrilled by the
>other two, but no need to talk about that. :)) You could have
>knocked me over with a feather. That was cool. If he only knew -
>Jap pickups and unmodded reissue reverb tanks! It would have been
>quite costly to have him come to Washington to produce us, so he just
>told us to try to make the album sound like Solaris Stomp, and we'll
>be fine. A great guy.
>
>Ivan
>
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
Deke's on the cover of the new "Blue Suede News"....great article!!!
Mike
Wow! Thanks to Ivan, Mel, & Dano for their insights into this subject. This
has been great reading!
Keep 'em coming!
Thanks,
BN
