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Hmmm, the whole idea of an article that is tech oriented,
and completely off topic (surf music).... is this a good
thing? So let's cut to the chase, and eliminate all the
blathering. We'll also eliminate the math portion of our
curriculum. <g> Since we started talking about impedance
in the power amp section, we'll stay there for now. In a
few paragraphs we'll deal with low signal level impedance.
First, every circuit in electronics has two impedance
factors, the input and the output. Some components
in those circuits are impedance-neutral, such as resistors,
diodes, batteries, etc. Others are very impedance critical,
these would be capacitors, inductors such as transformers, etc.
Impedance is frequency sensitive.
Let's just take it for granted that a tube has fairly high
input and output impedances. OTOH, a speaker's impedance
is low. We use a transformer to convert from one to the
other. So, what happens if we don't match the speaker to
the transformer?
Well, the transformer doesn't do anything in and of itself,
it's not an active component. What comes in, goes right
back out, after the conversion. If we hook up a 4 ohm
speaker to a 4 ohm output transformer, then the tubes will
be happy. If we hook up an 8 ohm speaker to that same
transformer, what happens to the tubes? They 'see' twice
the number of ohms of impedance. Is this a bad thing?
Depends on the tube, but for the most part, no. Lots of
tolerance is built into both tubes and transformers, and
even most speakers can handle some mis-matching of
impedance values.
Some guidelines that have been accepted by the amp design
and repair industries over the years:
You can usually feed a lower output impedance into a higher
speaker impedance without causing grief to the tubes, but
there are limits. You shouldn't go over twice the rated
number of ohms. Remember, as the ohms went up, the tubes
tried to overcome that, and tried to draw more power from
the power supply. Go too high, and the power supply will
crap out on you. You'll end up with less power output at
the jack, and probably a muddy sound.
Pretty much the same holds true in reverse, but that way
is a bit more dangerous. All the good amp designs, not
just Fender, can handle a halving of the impedance (2 ohms
instead of 4), and the tubes should survive. As has been
pointed out before, always look at your tubes for awhile
after doing this. If they start glowing red, STOP! The
tube is not sufficiently loaded down (too few ohms), and
is drawing too much power. This is something that can't
be fixed by twiddling the bias, you'd have to reduce the
power supply voltage (the B+). Moreover, the tubes will
very likely clip in the second harmonic range, and that
will pass right through the transformer and take the
speaker out like a snuffed candle. Too much of this,
and the transformer will also buy the farm.
Final rule of thumb: You can go one step up or down, but
no further. If you're going down (speaker is lower than
what the amp is rated for), then always observe the tubes
for at least 5 minutes after warming up. And re-check them
from time to time, they may not get stressed out until
later in their lives.
in re: low level signals......
The same rule of thumb holds true here, except that we don't
have to worry about blowing tubes or speakers. In fact,
what we now worry about is fidelity. You can always go
from a low impedance source to a high impedance load, and
it's very likely that you will suffer little or no signal
degradation. The reverse is -not- true, you will definitely
suffer degradation if you do more than halve the load's
input impedance compared to the source's output impedance.
And that's it in a nutshell. Without any math, even!
The rest of the lesson is best taught by example, and that's
where you come in. Ask your questions, and we'll see what
would happen (good or bad) if we do this or that or the
other thing.
unlunf
This is 'close' but not entirely correct. Rather than point out the
numerous errors in your post, I'll refer you to this link:
which answers most any question you could have with regard to tube
amplifiers.
And BTW, a transformer is an 'active' component. There even have
been transformer 'power amplifiers' manufactured in the past where
the transformer was the active power element.
regards,
--john
--- In , "unlunf" <unlunf@y...> wrote:
>
> Hmmm, the whole idea of an article that is tech oriented,
> and completely off topic (surf music).... is this a good
> thing? So let's cut to the chase, and eliminate all the
> blathering. We'll also eliminate the math portion of our
> curriculum. <g> Since we started talking about impedance
> in the power amp section, we'll stay there for now. In a
> few paragraphs we'll deal with low signal level impedance.
>
> First, every circuit in electronics has two impedance
> factors, the input and the output. Some components
> in those circuits are impedance-neutral, such as resistors,
> diodes, batteries, etc. Others are very impedance critical,
> these would be capacitors, inductors such as transformers, etc.
> Impedance is frequency sensitive.
>
> Let's just take it for granted that a tube has fairly high
> input and output impedances. OTOH, a speaker's impedance
> is low. We use a transformer to convert from one to the
> other. So, what happens if we don't match the speaker to
> the transformer?
>
> Well, the transformer doesn't do anything in and of itself,
> it's not an active component. What comes in, goes right
> back out, after the conversion. If we hook up a 4 ohm
> speaker to a 4 ohm output transformer, then the tubes will
> be happy. If we hook up an 8 ohm speaker to that same
> transformer, what happens to the tubes? They 'see' twice
> the number of ohms of impedance. Is this a bad thing?
> Depends on the tube, but for the most part, no. Lots of
> tolerance is built into both tubes and transformers, and
> even most speakers can handle some mis-matching of
> impedance values.
>
> Some guidelines that have been accepted by the amp design
> and repair industries over the years:
>
> You can usually feed a lower output impedance into a higher
> speaker impedance without causing grief to the tubes, but
> there are limits. You shouldn't go over twice the rated
> number of ohms. Remember, as the ohms went up, the tubes
> tried to overcome that, and tried to draw more power from
> the power supply. Go too high, and the power supply will
> crap out on you. You'll end up with less power output at
> the jack, and probably a muddy sound.
>
> Pretty much the same holds true in reverse, but that way
> is a bit more dangerous. All the good amp designs, not
> just Fender, can handle a halving of the impedance (2 ohms
> instead of 4), and the tubes should survive. As has been
> pointed out before, always look at your tubes for awhile
> after doing this. If they start glowing red, STOP! The
> tube is not sufficiently loaded down (too few ohms), and
> is drawing too much power. This is something that can't
> be fixed by twiddling the bias, you'd have to reduce the
> power supply voltage (the B+). Moreover, the tubes will
> very likely clip in the second harmonic range, and that
> will pass right through the transformer and take the
> speaker out like a snuffed candle. Too much of this,
> and the transformer will also buy the farm.
>
> Final rule of thumb: You can go one step up or down, but
> no further. If you're going down (speaker is lower than
> what the amp is rated for), then always observe the tubes
> for at least 5 minutes after warming up. And re-check them
> from time to time, they may not get stressed out until
> later in their lives.
>
> in re: low level signals......
>
> The same rule of thumb holds true here, except that we don't
> have to worry about blowing tubes or speakers. In fact,
> what we now worry about is fidelity. You can always go
> from a low impedance source to a high impedance load, and
> it's very likely that you will suffer little or no signal
> degradation. The reverse is -not- true, you will definitely
> suffer degradation if you do more than halve the load's
> input impedance compared to the source's output impedance.
>
> And that's it in a nutshell. Without any math, even!
> The rest of the lesson is best taught by example, and that's
> where you come in. Ask your questions, and we'll see what
> would happen (good or bad) if we do this or that or the
> other thing.
>
>
> unlunf
>
John,
First, you may have noted that I purposely claimed as
a goal to keep things very simple, which I think I did
fairly well. To state that there are 'numerous' mistakes
is not a matter of treating me unfairly, but it goes to
the matter of treating the rest of the readers unfairly.
How can they make up their minds if you don't give your
opposing viewpoints?
Second, I too could have just sent people to one or more
of my favorite websites, but I chose instead to write
this all out in my own words. While you may dispute
some of it, I challenge you (in the politest sense of
the word) to put forth your reasons for calling me into
question, preferably in your own words please. IMO,
sending someone off to a website that has a fantastic
amount of data, and telling them to search for the
answer, is not a good way to give them the answer to
the simple questions they asked in the first place.
Third, I am more than familiar with Mr. Keen and his
website. Overall, his presentation is very thorough,
and I would have the devil's own time of it trying to
find fault with about 98% of his writings. Keep in
mind that I have no real ax to grind with him, but there
are places where he makes an engineer cringe. In point
of fact, he states baldly at the outset that he is not
an engineer in the classical sense, whereas I can make
that claim. But what he is doing is bringing to his
pages that which he can depend on through his personal
experiences, or which he has garnered from his friends.
No fault there, and I applaud him for this. I wish
that I had the time to do the same thing. Going any
further would be petty nit-picking, and unproductive.
Fourth, I was trying to keep things relevant to the amps
used in the guitar markets - that eliminates any of the
advanced transformer circuits. What's more, your link
to a page dealing with so-called magnetic amplifiers is
misleading - you should have read the whole thing.
To quote from the fifth paragraph:
>> The term "amplifier" is used for this arrangement because,
>> by use of a few milliamperes, control of an output of 1
>> or more amperes is obtained.
They are using a DC current to saturate the core of an
otherwise ordinary transformer, which then devolves to
a simple interpretation of the DC current being used to
control the AC output independently of the input. And
you must keep in mind that everything else on this page
devolves from the above quote. There are, of course,
many uses for this type of circuit, and I wholeheartedly
concede that this single component is an active one. But
try to find such a device in any guitar/bass amp ever
made, hmmmm? I rest my case.
And finally, there really are two main camps, or schools
of thought, on how things work in the electronics world.
It can usually be divided down to engineers vs. technicians,
but that's a gross oversimplification. At the heart of it
all, there truly is room for different interpretations of
what one has learned via the simple expedient of personal,
hands-on, experimentation. To remain open minded about
the observations, deductions and conclusions of others is
what science is all about - it's not only the best way to
make progress, it's the only way that will stand the test
of time.
unlunf
--- In , "John Greene" <greene_pedals@y...> wrote:
>
> This is 'close' but not entirely correct. Rather than point out the
> numerous errors in your post, I'll refer you to this link:
>
> which answers most any question you could have with regard to tube
> amplifiers.
>
> And BTW, a transformer is an 'active' component. There even have
> been transformer 'power amplifiers' manufactured in the past where
> the transformer was the active power element.
>
>
> regards,
>
> --john
>
I think some of us want a simple answer, and some of us want to know it all.
I think Unlunf (sorry, don't know your actual name) did a credible job with this
in regard to
rule-of-thumb recommendations for speaker loads. I always understood, you could
go
from a 4-ohm to 8-ohm impedence without destroying your amp. However, going from
an
8-ohm to 4-ohm was taking a real risk of substantial damage. Likewise, 16-ohm to
8-
ohm load. OR, heaven forbid, 16-ohm to 4-ohm (nuclear meltdown, my friends).
So, from a pragmatic point of view, the short and sweet answer was accurate for
us amp
fiddlers.
HOWEVER, the simplest (and most helpful answer) is, MATCH THE LOAD AND WATTAGE
SPECIFICATIONS OF YOUR SPEAKER(S) TO THE AMP MANUFACTURER'S
RECOMMENDATIONS!
Always trying to keep the peace,
Gavin
> John,
>
> First, you may have noted that I purposely claimed as
> a goal to keep things very simple...
--- Gavin Ehringer <> wrote:
>>
> HOWEVER, the simplest (and most helpful answer) is, MATCH
> THE LOAD AND WATTAGE
> SPECIFICATIONS OF YOUR SPEAKER(S) TO THE AMP
> MANUFACTURER'S
> RECOMMENDATIONS!
>
> Always trying to keep the peace,
>
> Gavin
blessed are the peacemakers, as they will inherit the ohm.
-dp
__________________________________________________
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hey unlunf.
cool article ! you refer to mostly tubes though, does this generally apply to
solid state as well ?
aso what i was kinda wondering about was i have a solid state crate amp with
a 4 om speaker in it. it also has an external speaker jack, but its labeled ' 8
ohm min'.
i was inquiring about plugging it into my peavey bass cab that has 2 15 inch
speakers ( not sure about the ohms of each one ) but the cabinent is labeled '4
ohm' by peavey
unlunf <> wrote: Hmmm, the whole idea of an article
that is tech oriented,
and completely off topic (surf music).... is this a good
thing? So let's cut to the chase, and eliminate all the
blathering. We'll also eliminate the math portion of our
curriculum. <g> Since we started talking about impedance
in the power amp section, we'll stay there for now. In a
few paragraphs we'll deal with low signal level impedance.
First, every circuit in electronics has two impedance
factors, the input and the output. Some components
in those circuits are impedance-neutral, such as resistors,
diodes, batteries, etc. Others are very impedance critical,
these would be capacitors, inductors such as transformers, etc.
Impedance is frequency sensitive.
Let's just take it for granted that a tube has fairly high
input and output impedances. OTOH, a speaker's impedance
is low. We use a transformer to convert from one to the
other. So, what happens if we don't match the speaker to
the transformer?
Well, the transformer doesn't do anything in and of itself,
it's not an active component. What comes in, goes right
back out, after the conversion. If we hook up a 4 ohm
speaker to a 4 ohm output transformer, then the tubes will
be happy. If we hook up an 8 ohm speaker to that same
transformer, what happens to the tubes? They 'see' twice
the number of ohms of impedance. Is this a bad thing?
Depends on the tube, but for the most part, no. Lots of
tolerance is built into both tubes and transformers, and
even most speakers can handle some mis-matching of
impedance values.
Some guidelines that have been accepted by the amp design
and repair industries over the years:
You can usually feed a lower output impedance into a higher
speaker impedance without causing grief to the tubes, but
there are limits. You shouldn't go over twice the rated
number of ohms. Remember, as the ohms went up, the tubes
tried to overcome that, and tried to draw more power from
the power supply. Go too high, and the power supply will
crap out on you. You'll end up with less power output at
the jack, and probably a muddy sound.
Pretty much the same holds true in reverse, but that way
is a bit more dangerous. All the good amp designs, not
just Fender, can handle a halving of the impedance (2 ohms
instead of 4), and the tubes should survive. As has been
pointed out before, always look at your tubes for awhile
after doing this. If they start glowing red, STOP! The
tube is not sufficiently loaded down (too few ohms), and
is drawing too much power. This is something that can't
be fixed by twiddling the bias, you'd have to reduce the
power supply voltage (the B+). Moreover, the tubes will
very likely clip in the second harmonic range, and that
will pass right through the transformer and take the
speaker out like a snuffed candle. Too much of this,
and the transformer will also buy the farm.
Final rule of thumb: You can go one step up or down, but
no further. If you're going down (speaker is lower than
what the amp is rated for), then always observe the tubes
for at least 5 minutes after warming up. And re-check them
from time to time, they may not get stressed out until
later in their lives.
in re: low level signals......
The same rule of thumb holds true here, except that we don't
have to worry about blowing tubes or speakers. In fact,
what we now worry about is fidelity. You can always go
from a low impedance source to a high impedance load, and
it's very likely that you will suffer little or no signal
degradation. The reverse is -not- true, you will definitely
suffer degradation if you do more than halve the load's
input impedance compared to the source's output impedance.
And that's it in a nutshell. Without any math, even!
The rest of the lesson is best taught by example, and that's
where you come in. Ask your questions, and we'll see what
would happen (good or bad) if we do this or that or the
other thing.
unlunf
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Second, I too could have just sent people to one or more
>of my favorite websites, but I chose instead to write
>this all out in my own words. While you may dispute
>some of it, I challenge you (in the politest sense of
>the word) to put forth your reasons for calling me into
>question, preferably in your own words please.
I guess I did come across as rather short. I've been really swamped
lately with little or no free time... but anyway, here's a few
comments on your article:
--- In , "unlunf" <unlunf@y...> wrote:
>
> Hmmm, the whole idea of an article that is tech oriented,
> and completely off topic (surf music).... is this a good
> thing? So let's cut to the chase, and eliminate all the
> blathering. We'll also eliminate the math portion of our
> curriculum. <g> Since we started talking about impedance
> in the power amp section, we'll stay there for now. In a
> few paragraphs we'll deal with low signal level impedance.
>
> First, every circuit in electronics has two impedance
> factors, the input and the output. Some components
> in those circuits are impedance-neutral, such as resistors,
> diodes, batteries, etc. Others are very impedance critical,
> these would be capacitors, inductors such as transformers, etc.
> Impedance is frequency sensitive.
I think in the above paragraph you are saying that impedance is
related to reactance. But I'm not sure what you mean when you
say 'impedance critical'. To be accurate, impedance is comprised of
a real and imaginary part. Components such as resistors are
primarily 'real' only (resistance). While capacitors and inductors
are primarily 'imaginary' only (reactance). Impedance is used to
decribe something that contains both components. Amplifiers are
specified for output impedance because the load can be resistive or
reactive or anything in between. But this probably qualifies as 'nit-
picking'....
> Let's just take it for granted that a tube has fairly high
> input and output impedances. OTOH, a speaker's impedance
> is low. We use a transformer to convert from one to the
> other. So, what happens if we don't match the speaker to
> the transformer?
>
> Well, the transformer doesn't do anything in and of itself,
> it's not an active component. What comes in, goes right
> back out, after the conversion. If we hook up a 4 ohm
> speaker to a 4 ohm output transformer, then the tubes will
> be happy. If we hook up an 8 ohm speaker to that same
> transformer, what happens to the tubes? They 'see' twice
> the number of ohms of impedance. Is this a bad thing?
> Depends on the tube, but for the most part, no. Lots of
> tolerance is built into both tubes and transformers, and
> even most speakers can handle some mis-matching of
> impedance values.
> Some guidelines that have been accepted by the amp design
> and repair industries over the years:
>
> You can usually feed a lower output impedance into a higher
> speaker impedance without causing grief to the tubes, but
> there are limits. You shouldn't go over twice the rated
> number of ohms. Remember, as the ohms went up, the tubes
> tried to overcome that, and tried to draw more power from
> the power supply. Go too high, and the power supply will
> crap out on you. You'll end up with less power output at
> the jack, and probably a muddy sound.
As a rule of thumb, nothing greater than 2 to 1 mismatch is a good
one. However, with regard to what happens when you do mismatch the
load, when you put a higher impedance load on a tube amp, the tubes
see less of a load and the voltage swing on the plates goes up. The
tube tries to pull the same amount of current through the
transformer but since it is now a higher impedance, ohms law tells
us the voltage is going to increase. The problem is they will arc
internally if the output impedance, and thus voltage swing, gets too
high. The power supply is more than capable of providing everything
the tubes need to accomplish this.
> Pretty much the same holds true in reverse, but that way
> is a bit more dangerous. All the good amp designs, not
> just Fender, can handle a halving of the impedance (2 ohms
> instead of 4), and the tubes should survive. As has been
> pointed out before, always look at your tubes for awhile
> after doing this. If they start glowing red, STOP! The
> tube is not sufficiently loaded down (too few ohms), and
> is drawing too much power. This is something that can't
> be fixed by twiddling the bias, you'd have to reduce the
> power supply voltage (the B+). Moreover, the tubes will
> very likely clip in the second harmonic range, and that
> will pass right through the transformer and take the
> speaker out like a snuffed candle. Too much of this,
> and the transformer will also buy the farm.
This is simply not true. Higher output impedance is more dangerous
for a tube amp than a low impedance. (the opposite is true for solid
state) Lower the load on a tube amp and the gain goes down. The tube
will have to dissipate more of the power and consequently glow red
if the load is small enough and is used that way long enough. But
this is a much slower and less spectacular way of dieing than having
the tubes arc over.
I have no idea what you mean when you say it will cause a tube to
clip in the second harmonic range. I do know that when you drive the
tubes into clipping they generate lots of higher order harmonics,
2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. Why would a second harmonic be more
damaging to a speaker/transformer than the fundamental? It just
doesn't make sense. The second harmonic of 400 Hz is 800Hz. Both
capable of being generated by a guitar, why would 800Hz be more
damaging?
I do agree with your advice though:
> Final rule of thumb: You can go one step up or down, but
> no further. If you're going down (speaker is lower than
> what the amp is rated for), then always observe the tubes
> for at least 5 minutes after warming up. And re-check them
> from time to time, they may not get stressed out until
> later in their lives.
>
> in re: low level signals......
>
> The same rule of thumb holds true here, except that we don't
> have to worry about blowing tubes or speakers. In fact,
> what we now worry about is fidelity. You can always go
> from a low impedance source to a high impedance load, and
> it's very likely that you will suffer little or no signal
> degradation. The reverse is -not- true, you will definitely
> suffer degradation if you do more than halve the load's
> input impedance compared to the source's output impedance.
>
> And that's it in a nutshell. Without any math, even!
> The rest of the lesson is best taught by example, and that's
> where you come in. Ask your questions, and we'll see what
> would happen (good or bad) if we do this or that or the
> other thing.
>
>
> unlunf
>
It very simple with solid state amps.
Don't go below the minimum impedance rating of an amp.
4ohm speaker on a 8ohm amp? no way!
But you go as much higher as you want to.
32ohm speaker on a 8ohm amp? no problem
Unlike tubes, transistors don't give a f**k about a matching impedance. So
the sound won't even change when you apply a higher impedance, you will only
get less power. But when you apply a lower impedance it will draw too much
current from the amp which can be destructive. (most modern solid state amps
however have a overload protection circuit that will shut down the amp when
it gets too hot. But older amps might burn out.)
Roland Bettenville
-------Oorspronkelijk bericht-------
Van: Neal S.
Datum: 12/08/05 02:42:38
Aan:
Onderwerp: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Speaker Impedence Article
hey unlunf.
cool article ! you refer to mostly tubes though, does this generally apply
to solid state as well ?
aso what i was kinda wondering about was i have a solid state crate amp
with a 4 om speaker in it. it also has an external speaker jack, but its
labeled ' 8 ohm min'.
i was inquiring about plugging it into my peavey bass cab that has 2 15
inch speakers ( not sure about the ohms of each one ) but the cabinent is
labeled '4 ohm' by peavey
unlunf <> wrote: Hmmm, the whole idea of an article
that is tech oriented,
and completely off topic (surf music).... is this a good
thing? So let's cut to the chase, and eliminate all the
blathering. We'll also eliminate the math portion of our
curriculum. <g> Since we started talking about impedance
in the power amp section, we'll stay there for now. In a
few paragraphs we'll deal with low signal level impedance.
First, every circuit in electronics has two impedance
factors, the input and the output. Some components
in those circuits are impedance-neutral, such as resistors,
diodes, batteries, etc. Others are very impedance critical,
these would be capacitors, inductors such as transformers, etc.
Impedance is frequency sensitive.
Let's just take it for granted that a tube has fairly high
input and output impedances. OTOH, a speaker's impedance
is low. We use a transformer to convert from one to the
other. So, what happens if we don't match the speaker to
the transformer?
Well, the transformer doesn't do anything in and of itself,
it's not an active component. What comes in, goes right
back out, after the conversion. If we hook up a 4 ohm
speaker to a 4 ohm output transformer, then the tubes will
be happy. If we hook up an 8 ohm speaker to that same
transformer, what happens to the tubes? They 'see' twice
the number of ohms of impedance. Is this a bad thing?
Depends on the tube, but for the most part, no. Lots of
tolerance is built into both tubes and transformers, and
even most speakers can handle some mis-matching of
impedance values.
Some guidelines that have been accepted by the amp design
and repair industries over the years:
You can usually feed a lower output impedance into a higher
speaker impedance without causing grief to the tubes, but
there are limits. You shouldn't go over twice the rated
number of ohms. Remember, as the ohms went up, the tubes
tried to overcome that, and tried to draw more power from
the power supply. Go too high, and the power supply will
crap out on you. You'll end up with less power output at
the jack, and probably a muddy sound.
Pretty much the same holds true in reverse, but that way
is a bit more dangerous. All the good amp designs, not
just Fender, can handle a halving of the impedance (2 ohms
instead of 4), and the tubes should survive. As has been
pointed out before, always look at your tubes for awhile
after doing this. If they start glowing red, STOP! The
tube is not sufficiently loaded down (too few ohms), and
is drawing too much power. This is something that can't
be fixed by twiddling the bias, you'd have to reduce the
power supply voltage (the B+). Moreover, the tubes will
very likely clip in the second harmonic range, and that
will pass right through the transformer and take the
speaker out like a snuffed candle. Too much of this,
and the transformer will also buy the farm.
Final rule of thumb: You can go one step up or down, but
no further. If you're going down (speaker is lower than
what the amp is rated for), then always observe the tubes
for at least 5 minutes after warming up. And re-check them
from time to time, they may not get stressed out until
later in their lives.
in re: low level signals......
The same rule of thumb holds true here, except that we don't
have to worry about blowing tubes or speakers. In fact,
what we now worry about is fidelity. You can always go
from a low impedance source to a high impedance load, and
it's very likely that you will suffer little or no signal
degradation. The reverse is -not- true, you will definitely
suffer degradation if you do more than halve the load's
input impedance compared to the source's output impedance.
And that's it in a nutshell. Without any math, even!
The rest of the lesson is best taught by example, and that's
where you come in. Ask your questions, and we'll see what
would happen (good or bad) if we do this or that or the
other thing.
unlunf
.
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