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--- Brian Neal <> wrote:
> --- In , "unlunf"
> <unlunf@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > As for the rest of your piece, I believe you need to
> stop
> > thinking in terms of one-off, custom, hand-built
> guitars,
> > and start visiting large factories. If you were to
> consider
> > the economics of cutting tens of thousands of nuts a
> month,
> > you'd wonder why, if each is hand made, then why don't
> they
> > cost the proverbial arm, leg, and first-born child? <g>
>
> Ahh...dude...Dave works at Fender so I think he knows
> what he is
> talking about...
>
> BN
Back in 2001, the JH school where I work went on a field
trip down to Fender in Corona CA. It's a way cool factory,
they make all kinds of cool American Fenders there as well
as Custom Shop Models. We toured the production site, and
the Custom Shop, and at the end of the line, I met Dave W.
at his work station there. He was hand-cutting a nut for an
American Jazzmaster. He was doing final set-up before
shipping.
Dave was cool, he signed a Fender hang tag for me and
patiently listened to me telling him how cool Slacktone was
and how surf music rules the world!
Dave's an awesome cool dude. He's seems helpful and
positive all the way.
-dp
__________________________________
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DP,
If what you and Dave say is true, then you have now been
fully informed as to why a brand new Fender costs more
than you think it should. Oh, wait, what about all those
sub-$100 rigs, and the next tier, those running upwards
of $400? Do you really think someone was tasked to make
the nut on each individual guitar? I'm not gonna buy that
one until I personally see it - the finances are just all
upside down.
But listen, don't get the idea that I'm attacking anyone
here, least of Dave W. He didn't start this (nor did I),
he's just defending his position, for which I don't blame
him one bit. We're all cool here, and we're just chewing
the rag like a bunch of duffers down at the barber shop, OK?
I hope everyone's cool with that. <lol>
unlunf
--- In , DP <noetical1@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Back in 2001, the JH school where I work went on a field
> trip down to Fender in Corona CA. It's a way cool factory,
> they make all kinds of cool American Fenders there as well
> as Custom Shop Models. We toured the production site, and
> the Custom Shop, and at the end of the line, I met Dave W.
> at his work station there. He was hand-cutting a nut for an
> American Jazzmaster. He was doing final set-up before
> shipping.
>
> Dave was cool, he signed a Fender hang tag for me and
> patiently listened to me telling him how cool Slacktone was
> and how surf music rules the world!
>
> Dave's an awesome cool dude. He's seems helpful and
> positive all the way.
>
> -dp
>
If youre right, my arm, shoulder, and wrist should
stop hurting because I didnt actually file all those
thousands {thats right} guitar nuts, not to mention
the rediculously oversized five string bass nuts,
which are among my personal favorites.
The truth hurts....for reals, Man!
~d
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
dave wronski <stickmandw@y...> wrote:
>
> If youre right, my arm, shoulder, and wrist should
> stop hurting because I didnt actually file all those
> thousands {thats right} guitar nuts, not to mention
> the rediculously oversized five string bass nuts,
> which are among my personal favorites.
> The truth hurts....for reals, Man!
> ~d
>
Dave, I am interested, how long does it take you (an experienced Fender
employee) to cut a nut?
Somewhere in this thread, I read the claim that a handcut nut would up
the price of a guitar with 200 to 300 bcks, that seem ridiculous to me.
A ruogh calculation by me based on a totally uneducated guess about
Fedner wages and the time it takes to do the nut, I came to a anywhere
between 1 and 10 bucks - thats not calculating devaluation of
machinery that would up the price with machine-cut nuts. Or perhaps,
your not allowed to disclose this sort of info?
WR
WR,
> .... a handcut nut would up the price of a guitar with
> 200 to 300 bcks,.....
I wrote that figure, more as a tongue in cheek thing, but with
much more in the background than you might imagine.
First, I'm not gonna be the one to even guess at what Dave
makes at Fender - that's none of my business. So that leaves
out any general 'rule of thumb' figures for any quickie examples.
However, let's not forget that a craftsman's wages are not
the sum total of what goes into an instrument. I'd be remiss
if I went into detail about how finances and economics works
in the capitalistic world, that would be so off-topic. <g>
But there is one thing I can remind you of, and that is that
when an instrument is sold by the factory to either a dealer,
a jobber, or straight to a customer, the gross receipts for that
sale go towards keeping the company afloat, and ready to build
yet another instrument for sale. For instance, not only do
Dave and his cohorts have to be paid for their efforts, but so
do the guys in sales, in shipping and warehousing, the delivery
drivers, the secretaries and receptionists, the finance department
folks, not to mention all the big-wig executives in the
three-sides-windowed offices upstairs also wanting their share.
(Fender is not a publicly traded company, but if it were, then the
stock holders would also enter into the equation.) And then you
have the costs of the buildings and land, maintainance for them,
machines and their maintainance, taxes, interest on loans....
My Gawd, the list goes on and on, seemingly forever.
All of this adds up. The underlying point here is, not only does
Dave spend minutes doing something that machines can do in seconds,
but for every minute he spends doing so, that is time that flew by
on the clock for everyone else listed above. Everyone's time
simply must be compensated, and the way it's done is through
selling instruments. The longer it takes to make an instrument
ready to go out the door, the less profit left over after the
overhead has been paid off. Either that, or else the sale price
is raised to compensate, and bring the bottom-line profit to a
more desirable figure.
This is the very definition of why they say "Time is money".
You're correct, even $200 is an outrageous figure. I apologize if
you took offense at my seemingly blasé attitude, it was just to
draw attention to what I perceive is not the whole story.
Again, it's not Dave's fault that Fender does things this way. I
say, more power to him! <g>
unlunf
--- In , "mono_tones_1" <rockverb@h...> wrote:
>
> Dave, I am interested, how long does it take you (an experienced
> Fender employee) to cut a nut? Somewhere in this thread, I read
> the claim that a handcut nut would up the price of a guitar with
> 200 to 300 bcks, that seem ridiculous to me. A ruogh calculation
> by me based on a totally uneducated guess about Fedner wages and
> the time it takes to do the nut, I came to a anywhere between 1
> and 10 bucks - thats not calculating devaluation of machinery
> that would up the price with machine-cut nuts. Or perhaps,
> your not allowed to disclose this sort of info?
>
> WR
>
Dave,
You do know that this isn't personal, right? <g>
The bottom line is this: a belief was propounded, and I responded
with what I can show to be a definitive knowledge. You replied
that I was full of it, that in fact you were doing exactly what
I just said wasn't being done (any longer).
Well, I've no argument with that, you seem to be keeping beans on
the table and strings on your guitar, so who am I to call your
livelyhood into question? Answer: no one. I'd be a fool to
continue saying that you aren't doing what you are obviously doing.
<g> For that reason, I'll grant you that *some* factories still
use hand labor where they feel it best to do so, regardless of
how I feel about it.
However, even in retirement, I still can always use an influx of
cash. <g> If you'd be so kind as to show my previous messages to
those in your factory that might be of a mind to consider using
machinery, then I'd appreciate it. (There'd even be a finder's fee
in it for you, if a contract is consummated. <g>) And no, this
won't put you out of a job. Prior experience in this exact
situation tells me that the very best person to oversee the quality
of the machine's work is the one whom it replaced. Fact. <lol>
unlunf
p.s. How do you, or how does Fender, make a group of nuts to be
sold separately as spare parts? Please, don't shatter my illu-
sions that you cut it in a jig of some sort. If you tell me that
you mount it to a neck, string it up, cut away all the excess
material, and then break it out of the neck and put it in a box,
I'll be so depressed. And my doctor thinks I'm doing so well.
<rotflmao>
--- In , dave wronski <stickmandw@y...> wrote:
>
> If youre right, my arm, shoulder, and wrist should
> stop hurting because I didnt actually file all those
> thousands {thats right} guitar nuts, not to mention
> the rediculously oversized five string bass nuts,
> which are among my personal favorites.
> The truth hurts....for reals, Man!
> ~d
>
Actually, I find it kinda heartening that human hands still have a part in the
crafting of a
musical instrument. I don't mind the thought of paying an extra $5 for a little
extra hand
labor. I recently built a guitar - bought the unfinished neck and body, did all
the work of
fitting parts, prep, paint, sand, clear coat, sand, sand, sand, polish. Fit
parts, hand wire
electrics adjust, set up, cut nut. Adjust. Adjust. Perfect!
It was a really gratifying experience, and I will always feel the guitar is
better for the
personal care.
All too often, products are reduced to the cheapest, fastest, most efficient
means of
production. This begins with design, all the way through to finished product.
Call it the
WalMart syndrome, where everybody wants things cheap.
Thankfully, there are still people who feel that a guitar - or other stringed
instrument -
can be made better through judicious handwork under the care of a
musician/craftsman.
> Again, it's not Dave's fault that Fender does things this way. I
> say, more power to him! <g>
>
