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Marty,
It was a matter of marketing. Guild, Mosrite, and a host of
others, whoever all used this thing, they all did it because
it was requested, either by name or by inference. By that,
I mean players of those company's models were tired of hard
or impossible to intonate guitars, and collectively they said
"Whatever it takes, do something about this". In contrast,
it would appear that far too few players sent this message to
Fender or Gibson to make it worth their while to investigate
the need for such a thing. (Which is kinda what you said -
they never saw a necessity for it.)
As for the bit about the offshore clones defusing the cost
argument, they didn't have costs, at least not as we under-
stood them. <g> They just copied what was being done here
in the USA, and had at it. As the zero fret went away here,
so too did those offshore makers drop it.
unlunf
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
>
> I have to question the notion that the zero fret made for extra
> costs significant enough to keep buyers away in droves. Yes, it was
> featured on expensive Guilds and Mosrites but we also saw zero
> frets on many cheap guitars like those ones from Japan with five
> pick-ups and twelve switches.
>
> The prime electric guitar market companies, Fender and Gibson,
> never saw the necessity for the zero fret and I think that's why
> it didn't catch on.
>
> -Marty
I question the source of your information, unlunf. I don't know from the Guild
organization, but Semie Mosely did not do design tweaks at the request of
collective group of musicians. He was more stubborn than Leo Fender. You got it
his way or you didn't get the son of a b. In addition, the zero fret is not much
of an intonation fix. Intonation is corrected by changing the length of the
string and a zero fret doesn't do that.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: unlunf
To:
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 12:16 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
Marty,
It was a matter of marketing. Guild, Mosrite, and a host of
others, whoever all used this thing, they all did it because
it was requested, either by name or by inference. By that,
I mean players of those company's models were tired of hard
or impossible to intonate guitars, and collectively they said
"Whatever it takes, do something about this". In contrast,
it would appear that far too few players sent this message to
Fender or Gibson to make it worth their while to investigate
the need for such a thing. (Which is kinda what you said -
they never saw a necessity for it.)
As for the bit about the offshore clones defusing the cost
argument, they didn't have costs, at least not as we under-
stood them. <g> They just copied what was being done here
in the USA, and had at it. As the zero fret went away here,
so too did those offshore makers drop it.
unlunf
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
>
> I have to question the notion that the zero fret made for extra
> costs significant enough to keep buyers away in droves. Yes, it was
> featured on expensive Guilds and Mosrites but we also saw zero
> frets on many cheap guitars like those ones from Japan with five
> pick-ups and twelve switches.
>
> The prime electric guitar market companies, Fender and Gibson,
> never saw the necessity for the zero fret and I think that's why
> it didn't catch on.
>
> -Marty
.
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Marty,
Semie Mosely's infamous obstinance notwithstanding, I included
Mosrite because it was in the original message. But beyond that,
the fact remains, many manufacturers listen to their customers,
though certainly not all of them listen with the same enthusiasm.
Plus, some companies listen to only few 'trusted' souls, or so
it would seem. Rex Carson comes to mind when Leo was designing
the Stratocaster. Nonetheless, the fact that a particular company
may or may not have had a zero fret because of customer request
does not in anyway negate my general statement.
As for intonation itself.... you certainly can take care of
many of the usual problems by adjusting only one end of the
string. However, if you have a improperly cut nut right from
the get-go, then that job becomes much harder. The problem
lays in the fact that the gap between the break-over point
in the nut and the first fret must be accurate, or else the
open string will be either sharp or flat compared with the
notes on the rest of the string. No amount of sliding the
saddle back and forth can take care of that gap problem.
A comparable scenario is that you can always add distortion
to a clean signal, but you can never clean up a distorted
signal to the point where it sounds as though it had always
been clean. If you have an incorrect gap between the nut
and the first fret, you can't make that problem go away by
positioning the saddle differently - you simply must move
the nut to a more accurate position. Simple physics.
Marty, folks, please. I know my memory is getting old, but
by an odd twist of fate, or as luck would have it, it's a
known fact that the older one gets, the easier it is to recall
one's more distant memories, and usually they are more accurately
recalled than more recent ones. I'm no different in this respect.
For this reason, I'd like to remind you all that I was there (make
that in all capitals for emphasis) when all of this zero fret stuff
was going down. How many of you can make that same statement? Are
you sure you can persuade me that my memory is really that far off
the mark? <g> Is it worth the hassle of trying? <double grin>
unlunf
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
>
> I question the source of your information, unlunf. I don't know
> from the Guild organization, but Semie Mosely did not do design
> tweaks at the request of collective group of musicians. He was more
> stubborn than Leo Fender. You got it his way or you didn't get the
> son of a b. In addition, the zero fret is not much of an intonation
> fix. Intonation is corrected by changing the length of the string
> and a zero fret doesn't do that.
>
> -Marty
My point about Mosely's stubbornness was not in itself an attempt to negate your
original statement, unlunf. I was just curious what information source told you
that Mosely listened to a collective group of musicians when deciding about the
zero fret. Maybe you read something I hadn't. I see now that you are relying on
memory for your details concerning the history of the zero fret. That's fine. I
was indeed not there and have to rely on documented info.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: unlunf
To:
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:56 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
Marty,
Semie Mosely's infamous obstinance notwithstanding, I included
Mosrite because it was in the original message. But beyond that,
the fact remains, many manufacturers listen to their customers,
though certainly not all of them listen with the same enthusiasm.
Plus, some companies listen to only few 'trusted' souls, or so
it would seem. Rex Carson comes to mind when Leo was designing
the Stratocaster. Nonetheless, the fact that a particular company
may or may not have had a zero fret because of customer request
does not in anyway negate my general statement.
As for intonation itself.... you certainly can take care of
many of the usual problems by adjusting only one end of the
string. However, if you have a improperly cut nut right from
the get-go, then that job becomes much harder. The problem
lays in the fact that the gap between the break-over point
in the nut and the first fret must be accurate, or else the
open string will be either sharp or flat compared with the
notes on the rest of the string. No amount of sliding the
saddle back and forth can take care of that gap problem.
A comparable scenario is that you can always add distortion
to a clean signal, but you can never clean up a distorted
signal to the point where it sounds as though it had always
been clean. If you have an incorrect gap between the nut
and the first fret, you can't make that problem go away by
positioning the saddle differently - you simply must move
the nut to a more accurate position. Simple physics.
Marty, folks, please. I know my memory is getting old, but
by an odd twist of fate, or as luck would have it, it's a
known fact that the older one gets, the easier it is to recall
one's more distant memories, and usually they are more accurately
recalled than more recent ones. I'm no different in this respect.
For this reason, I'd like to remind you all that I was there (make
that in all capitals for emphasis) when all of this zero fret stuff
was going down. How many of you can make that same statement? Are
you sure you can persuade me that my memory is really that far off
the mark? <g> Is it worth the hassle of trying? <double grin>
unlunf
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
>
> I question the source of your information, unlunf. I don't know
> from the Guild organization, but Semie Mosely did not do design
> tweaks at the request of collective group of musicians. He was more
> stubborn than Leo Fender. You got it his way or you didn't get the
> son of a b. In addition, the zero fret is not much of an intonation
> fix. Intonation is corrected by changing the length of the string
> and a zero fret doesn't do that.
>
> -Marty
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have to agree with marty on this one. The zero fret would be the set point
for the intonation regaurdless of the placement of the nut as the zero fret
for all intensive perposes becomes the nut.
My 2 cents,
hoping for change,
Lewd
unlunf writes:
Well that's what we all are saying, Lewd. The question at hand is whether the
zero fret was a high-end costly modification done by Guild and Mosrite or an
easy way out (as it was done on so many cheapo guitars) or was it done for tone
purposes.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:41 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
I have to agree with marty on this one. The zero fret would be the set point
for the intonation regaurdless of the placement of the nut as the zero fret
for all intensive perposes becomes the nut.
My 2 cents,
hoping for change,
Lewd
unlunf writes:
.
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Well I guess that would depend on the company, as I see it it could be done
for either reason. I have no scientific background to back this up but one
could reason that with most nuts more of the string surface is in contact
creating a small amount of muting as where a zero fret would be free to ring
a bit more? as for a cheap easy way out? well, it may have helped a bit but
there are so many veriables in the making of the guitar.
so with that I bow out,
Lewd
Marty Tippens writes:
I would like to add Gretsch as one of the zero fret companies. They
actually called it the "action-flow" nut. The company claims they used
a zero fret to have lower action. They have a zero-fret on their '59
6120. They didn't use it the next year. Then in the '60s a lot of
high-end guitars had them. Their "low-end" hollowbody had them as well
in the mid '60s. I also read on gretschpages.com that Gretsch, and
Chet Atkins, got the idea from a lot of european guitars at the time.
Brian Setzer also removes the zero-frets from his '59 6120s. I would
have to assume that kill the value for anybody but Setzer. I've seen
those guitars fetch $35,000. The Japanese love them as well and I am
sure they are part of the reason for it. Those collectors are crazy in
Japan. The '59 is so sought after because of trestle-bracing not found
on any gretsch guitar, until the '05 Setzer models, since '59.
Anybody know what year Starcrunch's 6120 was?
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
>
> Well that's what we all are saying, Lewd. The question at hand is
whether the zero fret was a high-end costly modification done by
Guild and Mosrite or an easy way out (as it was done on so many cheapo
guitars) or was it done for tone purposes.
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: lewddude@s...
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:41 AM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
>
>
> I have to agree with marty on this one. The zero fret would be the
set point
> for the intonation regaurdless of the placement of the nut as the
zero fret
> for all intensive perposes becomes the nut.
>
> My 2 cents,
>
> hoping for change,
>
> Lewd
>
> unlunf writes:
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
>
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>
>
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Service.
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>
>
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>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1263 (20051021) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
That's very interesting about Brian Setzer removing the zero fret, Jacob. Where
did you hear that? I know that Gretsch no longer puts zero frets on their
guitars so I'm wondering if that's what you mean. If Brian removed 'em on his
older Gretsch's , I imagine he would have to move the nut up to where the zero
fret was to keep the intonation.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Jacob Dobner
To:
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 1:24 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
I would like to add Gretsch as one of the zero fret companies. They
actually called it the "action-flow" nut. The company claims they used
a zero fret to have lower action. They have a zero-fret on their '59
6120. They didn't use it the next year. Then in the '60s a lot of
high-end guitars had them. Their "low-end" hollowbody had them as well
in the mid '60s. I also read on gretschpages.com that Gretsch, and
Chet Atkins, got the idea from a lot of european guitars at the time.
Brian Setzer also removes the zero-frets from his '59 6120s. I would
have to assume that kill the value for anybody but Setzer. I've seen
those guitars fetch $35,000. The Japanese love them as well and I am
sure they are part of the reason for it. Those collectors are crazy in
Japan. The '59 is so sought after because of trestle-bracing not found
on any gretsch guitar, until the '05 Setzer models, since '59.
Anybody know what year Starcrunch's 6120 was?
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
>
> Well that's what we all are saying, Lewd. The question at hand is
whether the zero fret was a high-end costly modification done by
Guild and Mosrite or an easy way out (as it was done on so many cheapo
guitars) or was it done for tone purposes.
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: lewddude@s...
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:41 AM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
>
>
> I have to agree with marty on this one. The zero fret would be the
set point
> for the intonation regaurdless of the placement of the nut as the
zero fret
> for all intensive perposes becomes the nut.
>
> My 2 cents,
>
> hoping for change,
>
> Lewd
>
> unlunf writes:
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
>
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>
>
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Service.
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
.
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He does move them up. It looks quite funny actually. And I read it on
his website and I have seen pictures of this. I have seen, pictures,
of three of his '59s and they all have that. He owns one that doesn't
have that but it also has the tags still hanging from it. He is
retooling his website right now so his Guitar Gallery isn't as
complete as it used to be. He used to have a much larger collection
online. Now they are adding a new one every couple of days but it is
nowhere near its former glory. Maybe he will add Dave's Jag someday.
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
>
> That's very interesting about Brian Setzer removing the zero fret,
Jacob. Where did you hear that? I know that Gretsch no longer puts
zero frets on their guitars so I'm wondering if that's what you mean.
If Brian removed 'em on his older Gretsch's , I imagine he would have
to move the nut up to where the zero fret was to keep the intonation.
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jacob Dobner
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 1:24 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
>
>
> I would like to add Gretsch as one of the zero fret companies. They
> actually called it the "action-flow" nut. The company claims they used
> a zero fret to have lower action. They have a zero-fret on their '59
> 6120. They didn't use it the next year. Then in the '60s a lot of
> high-end guitars had them. Their "low-end" hollowbody had them as well
> in the mid '60s. I also read on gretschpages.com that Gretsch, and
> Chet Atkins, got the idea from a lot of european guitars at the time.
>
> Brian Setzer also removes the zero-frets from his '59 6120s. I would
> have to assume that kill the value for anybody but Setzer. I've seen
> those guitars fetch $35,000. The Japanese love them as well and I am
> sure they are part of the reason for it. Those collectors are crazy in
> Japan. The '59 is so sought after because of trestle-bracing not found
> on any gretsch guitar, until the '05 Setzer models, since '59.
>
> Anybody know what year Starcrunch's 6120 was?
>
> --- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Well that's what we all are saying, Lewd. The question at hand is
> whether the zero fret was a high-end costly modification done by
> Guild and Mosrite or an easy way out (as it was done on so many cheapo
> guitars) or was it done for tone purposes.
> > -Marty
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: lewddude@s...
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:41 AM
> > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
> >
> >
> > I have to agree with marty on this one. The zero fret would be the
> set point
> > for the intonation regaurdless of the placement of the nut as the
> zero fret
> > for all intensive perposes becomes the nut.
> >
> > My 2 cents,
> >
> > hoping for change,
> >
> > Lewd
> >
> > unlunf writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> > a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
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> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
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>
>
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>
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There is a collage of the famed Stray Cats '59. Notice the guitar in
the center how fat the nut is. And look to its right at the top and
you can see when the zero fret was still installed.
And Gretsch still has one model with a zero fret. It is somewhat of a
reissue, yet not fully. Kind of like Fenders '50s, '60s, and '70s
guitars.
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
>
> That's very interesting about Brian Setzer removing the zero fret,
Jacob. Where did you hear that? I know that Gretsch no longer puts
zero frets on their guitars so I'm wondering if that's what you mean.
If Brian removed 'em on his older Gretsch's , I imagine he would have
to move the nut up to where the zero fret was to keep the intonation.
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jacob Dobner
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 1:24 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
>
>
> I would like to add Gretsch as one of the zero fret companies. They
> actually called it the "action-flow" nut. The company claims they used
> a zero fret to have lower action. They have a zero-fret on their '59
> 6120. They didn't use it the next year. Then in the '60s a lot of
> high-end guitars had them. Their "low-end" hollowbody had them as well
> in the mid '60s. I also read on gretschpages.com that Gretsch, and
> Chet Atkins, got the idea from a lot of european guitars at the time.
>
> Brian Setzer also removes the zero-frets from his '59 6120s. I would
> have to assume that kill the value for anybody but Setzer. I've seen
> those guitars fetch $35,000. The Japanese love them as well and I am
> sure they are part of the reason for it. Those collectors are crazy in
> Japan. The '59 is so sought after because of trestle-bracing not found
> on any gretsch guitar, until the '05 Setzer models, since '59.
>
> Anybody know what year Starcrunch's 6120 was?
>
> --- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Well that's what we all are saying, Lewd. The question at hand is
> whether the zero fret was a high-end costly modification done by
> Guild and Mosrite or an easy way out (as it was done on so many cheapo
> guitars) or was it done for tone purposes.
> > -Marty
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: lewddude@s...
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:41 AM
> > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
> >
> >
> > I have to agree with marty on this one. The zero fret would be the
> set point
> > for the intonation regaurdless of the placement of the nut as the
> zero fret
> > for all intensive perposes becomes the nut.
> >
> > My 2 cents,
> >
> > hoping for change,
> >
> > Lewd
> >
> > unlunf writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
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> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
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>
Hey Jacob,
That picture is too small for me to see the details you mention, but I do see
that the guitar in the center has no zero fret. Also, I stand corrected. It does
appear that Gretsch still puts zero frets on their guitars as I see on
www.musiciansfriend.com.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Jacob Dobner
To:
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
There is a collage of the famed Stray Cats '59. Notice the guitar in
the center how fat the nut is. And look to its right at the top and
you can see when the zero fret was still installed.
And Gretsch still has one model with a zero fret. It is somewhat of a
reissue, yet not fully. Kind of like Fenders '50s, '60s, and '70s
guitars.
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
>
> That's very interesting about Brian Setzer removing the zero fret,
Jacob. Where did you hear that? I know that Gretsch no longer puts
zero frets on their guitars so I'm wondering if that's what you mean.
If Brian removed 'em on his older Gretsch's , I imagine he would have
to move the nut up to where the zero fret was to keep the intonation.
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jacob Dobner
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 1:24 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
>
>
> I would like to add Gretsch as one of the zero fret companies. They
> actually called it the "action-flow" nut. The company claims they used
> a zero fret to have lower action. They have a zero-fret on their '59
> 6120. They didn't use it the next year. Then in the '60s a lot of
> high-end guitars had them. Their "low-end" hollowbody had them as well
> in the mid '60s. I also read on gretschpages.com that Gretsch, and
> Chet Atkins, got the idea from a lot of european guitars at the time.
>
> Brian Setzer also removes the zero-frets from his '59 6120s. I would
> have to assume that kill the value for anybody but Setzer. I've seen
> those guitars fetch $35,000. The Japanese love them as well and I am
> sure they are part of the reason for it. Those collectors are crazy in
> Japan. The '59 is so sought after because of trestle-bracing not found
> on any gretsch guitar, until the '05 Setzer models, since '59.
>
> Anybody know what year Starcrunch's 6120 was?
>
> --- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Well that's what we all are saying, Lewd. The question at hand is
> whether the zero fret was a high-end costly modification done by
> Guild and Mosrite or an easy way out (as it was done on so many cheapo
> guitars) or was it done for tone purposes.
> > -Marty
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: lewddude@s...
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:41 AM
> > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: zero nuts (was Mosrite question)
> >
> >
> > I have to agree with marty on this one. The zero fret would be the
> set point
> > for the intonation regaurdless of the placement of the nut as the
> zero fret
> > for all intensive perposes becomes the nut.
> >
> > My 2 cents,
> >
> > hoping for change,
> >
> > Lewd
> >
> > unlunf writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for archived
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> >
> >
> >
>
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