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Greetings all,
After some ever-so helpful tips from Pollo Del Ferenc, I thought I'd
put the question to the whole group: how can I improve my
songwriting? Should I start with a chord structure? A scale? Or do
I just write a melody line and see how things fall in?
I've been really happy with what I've written thus far for The Lava
Rats, but feel like I'm still missing some of the finer "ins and
outs" of writing in the surf idiom. I'd be really interested to hear
how some of you others with more experience go about penning your
tunes.
Thanks, and a happy holidays to all!
~Bill~
Bill,
First, I want you to know that I was not criticizing your songs... Song
appreciation is a matter of taste, as is the writing of the song.
Presumably, one writes a song to express themselves in an artistic manner. There
are other motives for writing a song, but if you are writing
surf/instro, it can't be for the money.
So the task becomes: what do you want out of the songs you write? Are you trying
to tell a story or capture a mood? Is it about releasing your
aggression in a positive way? Are you trying to imitate or improve on your
hero's work?
There are many different ideas of exactly what a song is and how it should be
written-- what comes first? the groove, the melody, the chord
structure? I think we can all site examples of when a song has too much of one
of these elements, but not enough of another. Then again, there
are different listeners who might prefer an all groove song (think Rap), all
chords- or riffs (think death metal), or all melody (think
Teen-pop). ((I am using extreme examples of each of these genres, please don't
start a thread telling me that Slayer has a song with a good
melody, or that when Mary J Blige did a duet with Redman, it was a merge of
melody and rap- I know, I don't care)).
Bill, as to your question about where to start when writing a song. You can
start with any one the axis'- melody, chord or groove. (If you are
writing vocal tunes, lyrics would be a fourth axis). If you are interested in
writing for the surf genre, there is a trademark groove associated
already (boom da da boom boom da), although you are definitely not limited to
this groove by any means as surf was open from the get go to beats
from around the world.
Now- chords or melody? It has been my experience that a song that starts with a
melody will lead to more unusual chord structures, and hence a
more original song. Many people site the melody as the most important part of
surf music, so maybe you SHOULD start there. And, starting with an
exotic scale can lead to a cool song. I read about the Hungarian Minor, worked
on it a bit and came up with Magyara- it turned out to be my
Dad's (a hungarian) favorite song of mine.
But, if you are stuck for a melody, starting out with a chord structure and then
coming up with a melody that fits can be extremely satisfying,
and no less original.
Major or Minor? It has been my experience that minor keys lean more towards mood
and that major keys provoke melody. I guess that is obvious,
but turning this around is yet another exciting challenge to be undertaken.
There is an important fourth element- arrangement, or when recording-
production. I think it is extremely important not to confuse
arrangement/production with song writing. Arrangements define a genre rather
than a song. A good song should be able to be arranged for a
variety of genres. But to start out the song writing process by saying, well I'm
going to have a glissando going into a reverb kick followed by
the drum lick to Wipe Out and then the bassline to Pipeline with some pingy
notes on top, will create a completely unoriginal, paint by numbers
surf song. And, to my ear, there is lot of that happening in surf music these
days. Arrangements are the wrapping for the present, but don't
skimp on the gift for fancy paper and bows.
I think a big mistake that people make is to listen only to songs in a single
genre for inspiration. The originators of the surf genre reached
far and wide to come up with the influences that distilled into "surf music",
and even though the genre is 40 years old and well established,
you should too.
Here is another point- are you writing for a 4 piece or a trio? Sometimes when I
watch a trio, it just seems like the guitarist is noodling
around playing solos rather than playing a defined melody. Largely this is due
to the fact that there are no chords to show movement and
counterpoint to the melody. Great arrangers, like Dave Wronski, will play the
melody and chords at the same time. Dave is also an extremely
talented guitar player to be sure, but you don't have to be as skilled as he to
throw in double stops or triads in your melody to give hints of
the chord structure.
An extreme act of labor or gift from god? Sometimes a whole song just pops into
your head, as if the muse had landed on your shoulder. And
sometimes you just have to sit down and work it out and keep on massaging what
you've got until it is right. If you are going to sit around and
wait for the muse, you might be waiting a long time, so be prepared to do the
work. Personally, some of my songs have taken years to write- a
riff that just turns over and over until it find the write counterpoint line.
Many times I go to my 4 track with nothing and put down some
chords and keep scratching that itch for a week 'til it comes together.
A great exercise is to take apart your favorite songs. I don't mean to just
learn how to play it, but to really examine where the melody starts
in relation to the key of the song, and how the melody shifts as chords change.
Really, look at it note by note against the chords.
I think this is a very brief introduction to song writing. Really, it is
different for everyone. One could write volumes about the subject, but
rather than talk about it, it is better actually get yourself going. Talk about
the songs after they are done. Write a lot-- not everything you
write will be a gem and some deserve to get tossed out; keep the good parts and
use them later. You don't have to be a great musician to write a
song, in fact, some of the best musicians I know don't write at all. In summary,
I think that the most important part is to make sure that your
motivation for writing in the first place is to express yourself. A song is a
good song if the writer has pusued his motivations fully, and
completed them to his personal satisfaction. If anybody else likes it, that is a
bonus, and if not, well, there is no accounting for taste.
As Paul Westerberg said about song writing, "Nobody knows how to do it, but if
you have to do it, you just do it"
Ferenc
"surfbandbill " wrote:
>
> Greetings all,
> After some ever-so helpful tips from Pollo Del Ferenc, I thought I'd
> put the question to the whole group: how can I improve my
> songwriting? Should I start with a chord structure? A scale? Or do
> I just write a melody line and see how things fall in?
> I've been really happy with what I've written thus far for The Lava
> Rats, but feel like I'm still missing some of the finer "ins and
> outs" of writing in the surf idiom. I'd be really interested to hear
> how some of you others with more experience go about penning your
> tunes.
> Thanks, and a happy holidays to all!
> ~Bill~
Ferenc,
That was easily the best post to this list (ever) and dare I say to
any other surf related email list (at least in the past 2 years).
Thank you for that well thought out and reasoned treatise. I
appreciate your insights and taking the time to write them up.
Thanks again!
BN
With VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS, melody is a huge factor (supported by rhythm
and structure and sound). The most common mistake for new surf writers
is mistaking a chord progression os short string on notes for a melody.
I can't think of a simgle song I really like that doesn't have a strong
melody.
--- Ferenc Dobronyi <> wrote:
> Bill,
> First, I want you to know that I was not criticizing your songs...
> Song appreciation is a matter of taste, as is the writing of the
> song.
> Presumably, one writes a song to express themselves in an artistic
> manner. There are other motives for writing a song, but if you are
> writing
> surf/instro, it can't be for the money.
>
> So the task becomes: what do you want out of the songs you write? Are
> you trying to tell a story or capture a mood? Is it about releasing
> your
> aggression in a positive way? Are you trying to imitate or improve on
> your hero's work?
>
> There are many different ideas of exactly what a song is and how it
> should be written-- what comes first? the groove, the melody, the
> chord
> structure? I think we can all site examples of when a song has too
> much of one of these elements, but not enough of another. Then again,
> there
> are different listeners who might prefer an all groove song (think
> Rap), all chords- or riffs (think death metal), or all melody (think
> Teen-pop). ((I am using extreme examples of each of these genres,
> please don't start a thread telling me that Slayer has a song with a
> good
> melody, or that when Mary J Blige did a duet with Redman, it was a
> merge of melody and rap- I know, I don't care)).
>
> Bill, as to your question about where to start when writing a song.
> You can start with any one the axis'- melody, chord or groove. (If
> you are
> writing vocal tunes, lyrics would be a fourth axis). If you are
> interested in writing for the surf genre, there is a trademark groove
> associated
> already (boom da da boom boom da), although you are definitely not
> limited to this groove by any means as surf was open from the get go
> to beats
> from around the world.
>
> Now- chords or melody? It has been my experience that a song that
> starts with a melody will lead to more unusual chord structures, and
> hence a
> more original song. Many people site the melody as the most important
> part of surf music, so maybe you SHOULD start there. And, starting
> with an
> exotic scale can lead to a cool song. I read about the Hungarian
> Minor, worked on it a bit and came up with Magyara- it turned out to
> be my
> Dad's (a hungarian) favorite song of mine.
>
> But, if you are stuck for a melody, starting out with a chord
> structure and then coming up with a melody that fits can be extremely
> satisfying,
> and no less original.
>
> Major or Minor? It has been my experience that minor keys lean more
> towards mood and that major keys provoke melody. I guess that is
> obvious,
> but turning this around is yet another exciting challenge to be
> undertaken.
>
> There is an important fourth element- arrangement, or when recording-
> production. I think it is extremely important not to confuse
> arrangement/production with song writing. Arrangements define a genre
> rather than a song. A good song should be able to be arranged for a
> variety of genres. But to start out the song writing process by
> saying, well I'm going to have a glissando going into a reverb kick
> followed by
> the drum lick to Wipe Out and then the bassline to Pipeline with some
> pingy notes on top, will create a completely unoriginal, paint by
> numbers
> surf song. And, to my ear, there is lot of that happening in surf
> music these days. Arrangements are the wrapping for the present, but
> don't
> skimp on the gift for fancy paper and bows.
>
> I think a big mistake that people make is to listen only to songs in
> a single genre for inspiration. The originators of the surf genre
> reached
> far and wide to come up with the influences that distilled into "surf
> music", and even though the genre is 40 years old and well
> established,
> you should too.
>
> Here is another point- are you writing for a 4 piece or a trio?
> Sometimes when I watch a trio, it just seems like the guitarist is
> noodling
> around playing solos rather than playing a defined melody. Largely
> this is due to the fact that there are no chords to show movement and
> counterpoint to the melody. Great arrangers, like Dave Wronski, will
> play the melody and chords at the same time. Dave is also an
> extremely
> talented guitar player to be sure, but you don't have to be as
> skilled as he to throw in double stops or triads in your melody to
> give hints of
> the chord structure.
>
> An extreme act of labor or gift from god? Sometimes a whole song just
> pops into your head, as if the muse had landed on your shoulder. And
> sometimes you just have to sit down and work it out and keep on
> massaging what you've got until it is right. If you are going to sit
> around and
> wait for the muse, you might be waiting a long time, so be prepared
> to do the work. Personally, some of my songs have taken years to
> write- a
> riff that just turns over and over until it find the write
> counterpoint line. Many times I go to my 4 track with nothing and put
> down some
> chords and keep scratching that itch for a week 'til it comes
> together.
>
> A great exercise is to take apart your favorite songs. I don't mean
> to just learn how to play it, but to really examine where the melody
> starts
> in relation to the key of the song, and how the melody shifts as
> chords change. Really, look at it note by note against the chords.
>
> I think this is a very brief introduction to song writing. Really, it
> is different for everyone. One could write volumes about the subject,
> but
> rather than talk about it, it is better actually get yourself going.
> Talk about the songs after they are done. Write a lot-- not
> everything you
> write will be a gem and some deserve to get tossed out; keep the good
> parts and use them later. You don't have to be a great musician to
> write a
> song, in fact, some of the best musicians I know don't write at all.
> In summary, I think that the most important part is to make sure that
> your
> motivation for writing in the first place is to express yourself. A
> song is a good song if the writer has pusued his motivations fully,
> and
> completed them to his personal satisfaction. If anybody else likes
> it, that is a bonus, and if not, well, there is no accounting for
> taste.
>
> As Paul Westerberg said about song writing, "Nobody knows how to do
> it, but if you have to do it, you just do it"
>
> Ferenc
>
>
>
> "surfbandbill " wrote:
> >
> > Greetings all,
> > After some ever-so helpful tips from Pollo Del Ferenc, I thought
> I'd
> > put the question to the whole group: how can I improve my
> > songwriting? Should I start with a chord structure? A scale? Or
> do
> > I just write a melody line and see how things fall in?
> > I've been really happy with what I've written thus far for The Lava
> > Rats, but feel like I'm still missing some of the finer "ins and
> > outs" of writing in the surf idiom. I'd be really interested to
> hear
> > how some of you others with more experience go about penning your
> > tunes.
> > Thanks, and a happy holidays to all!
> > ~Bill~
=====
Phil Dirt
Reverb Central
PO Box 7240, Santa Cruz, CA 95061-7240 USA
KFJC 89.7 FM Stereo
Surf's Up! Saturdays 7-9 PM
__________________________________________________
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--- In , "Brian <bneal@z...>"
<bneal@z...> wrote:
> Ferenc,
> That was easily the best post to this list (ever) and dare I say to
> any other surf related email list (at least in the past 2 years).
> Thank you for that well thought out and reasoned treatise. I
> appreciate your insights and taking the time to write them up.
> Thanks again!
> BN
I have to agree with Brian, that was an awesome post! *P}}
Thanks, and that was just part one...
ferenc
"Landlocked " wrote:
>
> --- In , "Brian <bneal@z...>"
> <bneal@z...> wrote:
> > Ferenc,
> > That was easily the best post to this list (ever) and dare I say to
> > any other surf related email list (at least in the past 2 years).
> > Thank you for that well thought out and reasoned treatise. I
> > appreciate your insights and taking the time to write them up.
> > Thanks again!
> > BN
>
> I have to agree with Brian, that was an awesome post! *P}}
Guys, I couldn't agree more. I feel much more prepped to head into
my holiday break from school (when I do a bulk of writing).
Ferenc, I hope I wasn't sounding anything but greatful in my first
post -- I didn't think you were critical at all. Rather, I often ask
people who see me or any of my bands perform what they think so I can
get a gauge of what people do and don't like. You've given me great
tips in a very friendly and constructive way. I've been totally
appreciative of all the feedback I've gotten, especially from you,
but from others, both of live performances and the band's debut cd.
Robi of the Bitch Boys, Mike from 9th Wave, and Phil Dirt are a mere
handful of the many thanks that I owe for helping me gauge where my
writing and my band are at.
Thanks again to all for all handy tips, from amps to reverb to
writing.
All my best, and a happy holidays to all!
~Bill~
