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Both the Ingman and Shads' versions of "Apache" are important for different
reasons. I think Ivan's last sentence in the post below sums up both sides
of this thread.....it was the Shadows that made the song into a classic,
even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US. 'Nuff said.....
Anybody have any comments on the use of a D major chord versus Dm for the
verses (assuming y'all play this in the key of Am)? Let's see if this is a
worm can opener.....
jb
"ipongrac"
<
om> To
Sent by:
SurfGuitar101@yah cc
oogroups.com
Subject
[SurfGuitar101] Re: Shadows vs.
10/03/2005 12:35 Jorgen Ingman. was...Junior plays
PM the Ventures
Please respond to
SurfGuitar101@yah
oogroups.com
--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...> wrote:
> If you lived in the US in the sixties, you likely had no idea who the
> Shadows were, but you heard Jorgen Ingmann's "Apache" on the radio
all
> the time.
No question.
> How can you condemn the Ingmann version without hearing it? Beyond
> this list, there is no controversy.
I have heard it, and even have the entire Ingmann "Apache" album
(where he's wearing the silly Indian chief headgear) and think it's
good - good in a sense of Les Paul, whom I'm a big fan of. It's not a
rock'n'roll song.
> It's not a "Shadows" song. They got it from a song writer.
Well, I don't think this is quite right. of course Lordan wrote the
melody, but to see the Shadows brilliance, listen to the version of
the song by Bert Weedon, an easy-listening Brit guitarist of the
time. He was quite popular, and Lordan first gave him the song. He
recorded it but didn't release it until after the Shadows had a hit
with their version. Weedon's version is boring, boring, boring. It's
got nothing. What makes Apache great, and what makes it just as much
of a Shadows songs as Walk, Don't Run is a Ventures song, is their
indivudual trademark sound and arrangement (and nevermind the intro
and outro, as well as the middle breakdown part, which all were
authored by the Shads). I do believe that the Shadows must get the at
least some of the credit for the greatness of that song - and BTW,
Ingmann copied the Shadows arrangement very closely.
> It's just a matter of where you were at the time,
> or your personal taste, nothing more.
Of course, nobody's arguing that. But I just want to make sure that
people understand is that it was the Shadows that made that song into
a classic, even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US.
Ivan
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't know about that D or Dm in Apache, John. I'm still tryin' to figure out
if the Venrtures were playing A or Am as the first chord of WDR. Yes, Am fits
the key but may are convinced it's A and it is hard to tell. Is this the same
problem with Apache?
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Shadows vs. Jorgen Ingman
Both the Ingman and Shads' versions of "Apache" are important for different
reasons. I think Ivan's last sentence in the post below sums up both sides
of this thread.....it was the Shadows that made the song into a classic,
even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US. 'Nuff said.....
Anybody have any comments on the use of a D major chord versus Dm for the
verses (assuming y'all play this in the key of Am)? Let's see if this is a
worm can opener.....
jb
"ipongrac"
<
om> To
Sent by:
SurfGuitar101@yah cc
oogroups.com
Subject
[SurfGuitar101] Re: Shadows vs.
10/03/2005 12:35 Jorgen Ingman. was...Junior plays
PM the Ventures
Please respond to
SurfGuitar101@yah
oogroups.com
--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...> wrote:
> If you lived in the US in the sixties, you likely had no idea who the
> Shadows were, but you heard Jorgen Ingmann's "Apache" on the radio
all
> the time.
No question.
> How can you condemn the Ingmann version without hearing it? Beyond
> this list, there is no controversy.
I have heard it, and even have the entire Ingmann "Apache" album
(where he's wearing the silly Indian chief headgear) and think it's
good - good in a sense of Les Paul, whom I'm a big fan of. It's not a
rock'n'roll song.
> It's not a "Shadows" song. They got it from a song writer.
Well, I don't think this is quite right. of course Lordan wrote the
melody, but to see the Shadows brilliance, listen to the version of
the song by Bert Weedon, an easy-listening Brit guitarist of the
time. He was quite popular, and Lordan first gave him the song. He
recorded it but didn't release it until after the Shadows had a hit
with their version. Weedon's version is boring, boring, boring. It's
got nothing. What makes Apache great, and what makes it just as much
of a Shadows songs as Walk, Don't Run is a Ventures song, is their
indivudual trademark sound and arrangement (and nevermind the intro
and outro, as well as the middle breakdown part, which all were
authored by the Shads). I do believe that the Shadows must get the at
least some of the credit for the greatness of that song - and BTW,
Ingmann copied the Shadows arrangement very closely.
> It's just a matter of where you were at the time,
> or your personal taste, nothing more.
Of course, nobody's arguing that. But I just want to make sure that
people understand is that it was the Shadows that made that song into
a classic, even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US.
Ivan
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would say Am with WDR cause the lead guitarist is playing the main riff using
the Am scale. It would'nt work with a A Major scale.
On a different topic, don't the Shawdows close Apache with an A Major chord?
Billy
---- Marty Tippens <> wrote:
> I don't know about that D or Dm in Apache, John. I'm still tryin' to figure
out if the Venrtures were playing A or Am as the first chord of WDR. Yes, Am
fits the key but may are convinced it's A and it is hard to tell. Is this the
same problem with Apache?
> -Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 12:57 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Shadows vs. Jorgen Ingman
>
>
>
> Both the Ingman and Shads' versions of "Apache" are important for different
> reasons. I think Ivan's last sentence in the post below sums up both sides
> of this thread.....it was the Shadows that made the song into a classic,
> even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US. 'Nuff said.....
>
> Anybody have any comments on the use of a D major chord versus Dm for the
> verses (assuming y'all play this in the key of Am)? Let's see if this is a
> worm can opener.....
>
> jb
>
>
>
>
>
> "ipongrac"
> <
> om> To
> Sent by:
> SurfGuitar101@yah cc
> oogroups.com
> Subject
> [SurfGuitar101] Re: Shadows vs.
> 10/03/2005 12:35 Jorgen Ingman. was...Junior plays
> PM the Ventures
>
>
> Please respond to
> SurfGuitar101@yah
> oogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...> wrote:
> > If you lived in the US in the sixties, you likely had no idea who the
> > Shadows were, but you heard Jorgen Ingmann's "Apache" on the radio
> all
> > the time.
>
> No question.
>
> > How can you condemn the Ingmann version without hearing it? Beyond
> > this list, there is no controversy.
>
> I have heard it, and even have the entire Ingmann "Apache" album
> (where he's wearing the silly Indian chief headgear) and think it's
> good - good in a sense of Les Paul, whom I'm a big fan of. It's not a
> rock'n'roll song.
>
> > It's not a "Shadows" song. They got it from a song writer.
>
> Well, I don't think this is quite right. of course Lordan wrote the
> melody, but to see the Shadows brilliance, listen to the version of
> the song by Bert Weedon, an easy-listening Brit guitarist of the
> time. He was quite popular, and Lordan first gave him the song. He
> recorded it but didn't release it until after the Shadows had a hit
> with their version. Weedon's version is boring, boring, boring. It's
> got nothing. What makes Apache great, and what makes it just as much
> of a Shadows songs as Walk, Don't Run is a Ventures song, is their
> indivudual trademark sound and arrangement (and nevermind the intro
> and outro, as well as the middle breakdown part, which all were
> authored by the Shads). I do believe that the Shadows must get the at
> least some of the credit for the greatness of that song - and BTW,
> Ingmann copied the Shadows arrangement very closely.
>
> > It's just a matter of where you were at the time,
> > or your personal taste, nothing more.
>
> Of course, nobody's arguing that. But I just want to make sure that
> people understand is that it was the Shadows that made that song into
> a classic, even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US.
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
> bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1240 (20051003) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
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>
--- In , <scanman@a...> wrote:
> On a different topic, don't the Shawdows close Apache with an A
> Major chord?
Only live. Also, though I'm less sure about this, since the seventies
on - in the sixties I think they closed with an Am. Bruce Welch,
talking about the Rapiers in a recent interview, gave as an example of
Colin Pryce-Jones' dedication to doing it exactly the sixties way that
the Rapiers always close Apache with an Am.
Ivan
Yeah, that must of been a live version I heard, cause I thought that was a cool
little twist they threw in at the end.
Billy
---- ipongrac <> wrote:
> --- In , <scanman@a...> wrote:
>
> > On a different topic, don't the Shawdows close Apache with an A
> > Major chord?
>
> Only live. Also, though I'm less sure about this, since the seventies
> on - in the sixties I think they closed with an Am. Bruce Welch,
> talking about the Rapiers in a recent interview, gave as an example of
> Colin Pryce-Jones' dedication to doing it exactly the sixties way that
> the Rapiers always close Apache with an Am.
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Wasn't the 1st (hit) version by the Ventures done with all major
chords (A-G-F-E), even though the A major was technically in a
different key? I think so. The later version (WDR '65?) may have used
an A minor. As far as "Apache goes, I have a transcription by Fred
Sokolow that goes Am-Dm..... then D(major)-G-Dm when the melody goes
up a fourth. Just realized that I've been playing the 2nd part Dm-G-Dm
and never noticed.
Casey
--- In , <scanman@a...> wrote:
> I would say Am with WDR cause the lead guitarist is playing the
main riff using the Am scale. It would'nt work with a A Major scale.
> On a different topic, don't the Shawdows close Apache with an A
Major chord?
> Billy
>
>
> ---- Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > I don't know about that D or Dm in Apache, John. I'm still tryin'
to figure out if the Venrtures were playing A or Am as the first chord
of WDR. Yes, Am fits the key but may are convinced it's A and it is
hard to tell. Is this the same problem with Apache?
> > -Marty
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: john.blair@s...
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 12:57 PM
> > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Shadows vs. Jorgen Ingman
> >
> >
> >
> > Both the Ingman and Shads' versions of "Apache" are important
for different
> > reasons. I think Ivan's last sentence in the post below sums up
both sides
> > of this thread.....it was the Shadows that made the song into a
classic,
> > even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US. 'Nuff
said.....
> >
> > Anybody have any comments on the use of a D major chord versus
Dm for the
> > verses (assuming y'all play this in the key of Am)? Let's see
if this is a
> > worm can opener.....
> >
> > jb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "ipongrac"
> > <ipongrac@g...
> > om>
To
> > Sent by:
> > SurfGuitar101@yah
cc
> > oogroups.com
> >
Subject
> > [SurfGuitar101] Re:
Shadows vs.
> > 10/03/2005 12:35 Jorgen Ingman.
was...Junior plays
> > PM the Ventures
> >
> >
> > Please respond to
> > SurfGuitar101@yah
> > oogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
wrote:
> > > If you lived in the US in the sixties, you likely had no idea
who the
> > > Shadows were, but you heard Jorgen Ingmann's "Apache" on the radio
> > all
> > > the time.
> >
> > No question.
> >
> > > How can you condemn the Ingmann version without hearing it? Beyond
> > > this list, there is no controversy.
> >
> > I have heard it, and even have the entire Ingmann "Apache" album
> > (where he's wearing the silly Indian chief headgear) and think it's
> > good - good in a sense of Les Paul, whom I'm a big fan of. It's
not a
> > rock'n'roll song.
> >
> > > It's not a "Shadows" song. They got it from a song writer.
> >
> > Well, I don't think this is quite right. of course Lordan wrote the
> > melody, but to see the Shadows brilliance, listen to the version of
> > the song by Bert Weedon, an easy-listening Brit guitarist of the
> > time. He was quite popular, and Lordan first gave him the song. He
> > recorded it but didn't release it until after the Shadows had a hit
> > with their version. Weedon's version is boring, boring, boring.
It's
> > got nothing. What makes Apache great, and what makes it just as
much
> > of a Shadows songs as Walk, Don't Run is a Ventures song, is their
> > indivudual trademark sound and arrangement (and nevermind the intro
> > and outro, as well as the middle breakdown part, which all were
> > authored by the Shads). I do believe that the Shadows must get
the at
> > least some of the credit for the greatness of that song - and BTW,
> > Ingmann copied the Shadows arrangement very closely.
> >
> > > It's just a matter of where you were at the time,
> > > or your personal taste, nothing more.
> >
> > Of course, nobody's arguing that. But I just want to make sure that
> > people understand is that it was the Shadows that made that song
into
> > a classic, even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US.
> >
> > Ivan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for archived
messages,
> > bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > __________ NOD32 1.1240 (20051003) Information __________
> >
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
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> >
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To tell you the truth. I just pick up that funny lookin' wooden thing with 6
strings made out of pig guts and do the best I can.
I figure if I really wanted to sound like another band, I might as well throw a
cd player on stage and pop in their Cd...........
I guess what I'm sayin' is, I don't wanna sound like anybody, except me.
B-B-O
---- Casey Cash <> wrote:
> Wasn't the 1st (hit) version by the Ventures done with all major
> chords (A-G-F-E), even though the A major was technically in a
> different key? I think so. The later version (WDR '65?) may have used
> an A minor. As far as "Apache goes, I have a transcription by Fred
> Sokolow that goes Am-Dm..... then D(major)-G-Dm when the melody goes
> up a fourth. Just realized that I've been playing the 2nd part Dm-G-Dm
> and never noticed.
> Casey
>
> --- In , <scanman@a...> wrote:
> > I would say Am with WDR cause the lead guitarist is playing the
> main riff using the Am scale. It would'nt work with a A Major scale.
> > On a different topic, don't the Shawdows close Apache with an A
> Major chord?
> > Billy
> >
> >
> > ---- Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > > I don't know about that D or Dm in Apache, John. I'm still tryin'
> to figure out if the Venrtures were playing A or Am as the first chord
> of WDR. Yes, Am fits the key but may are convinced it's A and it is
> hard to tell. Is this the same problem with Apache?
> > > -Marty
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: john.blair@s...
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 12:57 PM
> > > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Shadows vs. Jorgen Ingman
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Both the Ingman and Shads' versions of "Apache" are important
> for different
> > > reasons. I think Ivan's last sentence in the post below sums up
> both sides
> > > of this thread.....it was the Shadows that made the song into a
> classic,
> > > even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US. 'Nuff
> said.....
> > >
> > > Anybody have any comments on the use of a D major chord versus
> Dm for the
> > > verses (assuming y'all play this in the key of Am)? Let's see
> if this is a
> > > worm can opener.....
> > >
> > > jb
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > > "ipongrac"
>
> > > <ipongrac@g...
>
> > > om>
> To
> > > Sent by:
>
> > > SurfGuitar101@yah
> cc
> > > oogroups.com
>
> > >
> Subject
> > > [SurfGuitar101] Re:
> Shadows vs.
> > > 10/03/2005 12:35 Jorgen Ingman.
> was...Junior plays
> > > PM the Ventures
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Please respond to
>
> > > SurfGuitar101@yah
>
> > > oogroups.com
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> wrote:
> > > > If you lived in the US in the sixties, you likely had no idea
> who the
> > > > Shadows were, but you heard Jorgen Ingmann's "Apache" on the radio
> > > all
> > > > the time.
> > >
> > > No question.
> > >
> > > > How can you condemn the Ingmann version without hearing it? Beyond
> > > > this list, there is no controversy.
> > >
> > > I have heard it, and even have the entire Ingmann "Apache" album
> > > (where he's wearing the silly Indian chief headgear) and think it's
> > > good - good in a sense of Les Paul, whom I'm a big fan of. It's
> not a
> > > rock'n'roll song.
> > >
> > > > It's not a "Shadows" song. They got it from a song writer.
> > >
> > > Well, I don't think this is quite right. of course Lordan wrote the
> > > melody, but to see the Shadows brilliance, listen to the version of
> > > the song by Bert Weedon, an easy-listening Brit guitarist of the
> > > time. He was quite popular, and Lordan first gave him the song. He
> > > recorded it but didn't release it until after the Shadows had a hit
> > > with their version. Weedon's version is boring, boring, boring.
> It's
> > > got nothing. What makes Apache great, and what makes it just as
> much
> > > of a Shadows songs as Walk, Don't Run is a Ventures song, is their
> > > indivudual trademark sound and arrangement (and nevermind the intro
> > > and outro, as well as the middle breakdown part, which all were
> > > authored by the Shads). I do believe that the Shadows must get
> the at
> > > least some of the credit for the greatness of that song - and BTW,
> > > Ingmann copied the Shadows arrangement very closely.
> > >
> > > > It's just a matter of where you were at the time,
> > > > or your personal taste, nothing more.
> > >
> > > Of course, nobody's arguing that. But I just want to make sure that
> > > people understand is that it was the Shadows that made that song
> into
> > > a classic, even if Ingmann's version was more popular in the US.
> > >
> > > Ivan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > > Visit for archived
> messages,
> > > bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > > Visit for archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
> > >
> > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >
> > >
> > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Marty,
According to the album "Learn Guitar with The Ventures, Vol 1",
they used an Am. So was it written (well, the sheet music they
published showed the tune in Bbm, not Am, but that's another
story), and so was it played by both Chet Atkins, C.G.P. (1956)
and the tune's author, Johnny Smith (1952).
And no, Apache should be obvious, in almost any version you might
hear. It's Am-D, no matter how you slice it. Brave souls often
play a Dm (maybe it's easier to remember that way??), and some of
them get away with it, but the cognoscenti looked at the sheet
music first, then played it as written.
Just fillin' the holes, tha's all. <g>
unlunf
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
>
> I don't know about that D or Dm in Apache, John. I'm still tryin'
> to figure out if the Venrtures were playing A or Am as the first
> chord of WDR. Yes, Am fits the key but may are convinced it's A
> and it is hard to tell. Is this the same problem with Apache?
> -Marty
>
