Menu
I know their are Junior Brown fans here and y'all will be happy to know that, on
his new live album from Austin, he does a killer Ventures-style version of
Lullaby of the Leaves. He follows with Apache, Secret Agent Man and Bulldog.
It's billed as a medly but it's more like three complete instros one after the
other. Apache fans will be glad to know that the writing credits are incorrectly
given to Jorgan Ingman (of course Jorgan did have the best early '60's version).
-Marty
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Apache fans will be glad to know that the writing credits are
> incorrectly given to Jorgan Ingman (of course Jorgan did have the
> best early '60's version).
Marty, that is just SOOO wrong on so many levels... To say that that
second-rate Les-Paul wannabe and a thief had the best early '60s
version is just unbelievably disrespectful of the Shadows, who after
all turned that song into the eternal classic - besides the main
melody, which is Lordan's, they were responsible for everything else,
including the unforgettable intro, the haunted sound, the middle
breakdown, the drum part, the driving rhythm guitar...
If you ask about Apache ANYWHERE else in the world outside the US,
there is only one band that people will bring up - The Shadows.
I object!!!
Ivan
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...> wrote:
> --- In , "Marty Tippens"
> <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > Apache fans will be glad to know that the writing credits are
> > incorrectly given to Jorgan Ingman (of course Jorgan did have the
> > best early '60's version).
>
> Marty, that is just SOOO wrong on so many levels... [...]
Let's hope Marty was just trolling on that remark... :-)
BN
Its those wonderful clean rapid-fire sticcatto bits that Jorgan plays in his
version of Apache that puts it over the top for me. Yes, Jorgan was a Les Paul
wannabe but I still like his recordings. He put enough of his own stamp on
Apache that it's not a total carbon copy theft.. He played it as a rhumba. It
may have been an attempt to grab the hit for himself but that was the name of
the game in those days. The Beatles hadn't yet convinced everyone that you were
s'pose to write your own hits.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: ipongrac
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 7:08 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Junior plays the Ventures
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Apache fans will be glad to know that the writing credits are
> incorrectly given to Jorgan Ingman (of course Jorgan did have the
> best early '60's version).
Marty, that is just SOOO wrong on so many levels... To say that that
second-rate Les-Paul wannabe and a thief had the best early '60s
version is just unbelievably disrespectful of the Shadows, who after
all turned that song into the eternal classic - besides the main
melody, which is Lordan's, they were responsible for everything else,
including the unforgettable intro, the haunted sound, the middle
breakdown, the drum part, the driving rhythm guitar...
If you ask about Apache ANYWHERE else in the world outside the US,
there is only one band that people will bring up - The Shadows.
I object!!!
Ivan
.
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--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
> It may have been an attempt to grab the hit for himself but that was
> the name of the game in those days. The Beatles hadn't yet convinced
> everyone that you were s'pose to write your own hits.
Except that this is EXACTLY what the Shadows did - first with Cliff
Richard, for whom they were already in '59 and early '60 (pre-Apache)
writing more than a few big hits, and then for themselves (for
example, FBI, Foot Tapper, and Shindig - all pre-Beatlemania). They
never had to stoop to stealing other people's hits.
And who's ever heard of Ingmann POST-Apache, anyway? There's no
comparison. You may like his version, but the magnitude of achievement
of the two performers isn't even close.
You're right, Ivan, the Shadows didn't have to stoop to doing other people's
hits but that didn't keep them from trying..."Walk Don't Run" for instance. But
I think you are mis-understanding my preference of Jorgan's "Apache" to mean
that I don't love the Shadows. I totally dig them, have all their recordings,
and have performed in a Shadows tribute band. Yes, they acheived far more than
Jorgan did but I don't take the attitude of "my Shadows right or wrong". I trust
there is at least one Shadows tune that you feel was better performed by another
artist.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: ipongrac
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 8:50 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Junior plays the Ventures
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
> It may have been an attempt to grab the hit for himself but that was
> the name of the game in those days. The Beatles hadn't yet convinced
> everyone that you were s'pose to write your own hits.
Except that this is EXACTLY what the Shadows did - first with Cliff
Richard, for whom they were already in '59 and early '60 (pre-Apache)
writing more than a few big hits, and then for themselves (for
example, FBI, Foot Tapper, and Shindig - all pre-Beatlemania). They
never had to stoop to stealing other people's hits.
And who's ever heard of Ingmann POST-Apache, anyway? There's no
comparison. You may like his version, but the magnitude of achievement
of the two performers isn't even close.
.
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I am sure Ivan would prefer the 'Verb's version of Main Theme...
Probably not. We only played it live once or twice. We didn't practice
it enough. Not nearly enough.
None of us had ever heard The Shadows version of that song. All we had
to learn from was a video of the Troubadors doing it. And two members
of the band didn't even hear that version.
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
> You're right, Ivan, the Shadows didn't have to stoop to doing other
people's hits but that didn't keep them from trying..."Walk Don't Run"
for instance. But I think you are mis-understanding my preference of
Jorgan's "Apache" to mean that I don't love the Shadows. I totally dig
them, have all their recordings, and have performed in a Shadows
tribute band. Yes, they acheived far more than Jorgan did but I don't
take the attitude of "my Shadows right or wrong". I trust there is at
least one Shadows tune that you feel was better performed by another
artist.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ipongrac
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 8:50 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Junior plays the Ventures
>
>
> --- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...>
> wrote:
> > It may have been an attempt to grab the hit for himself but that
was
> > the name of the game in those days. The Beatles hadn't yet
convinced
> > everyone that you were s'pose to write your own hits.
>
> Except that this is EXACTLY what the Shadows did - first with Cliff
> Richard, for whom they were already in '59 and early '60 (pre-Apache)
> writing more than a few big hits, and then for themselves (for
> example, FBI, Foot Tapper, and Shindig - all pre-Beatlemania). They
> never had to stoop to stealing other people's hits.
>
> And who's ever heard of Ingmann POST-Apache, anyway? There's no
> comparison. You may like his version, but the magnitude of
achievement
> of the two performers isn't even close.
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> You're right, Ivan, the Shadows didn't have to stoop to doing
> other people's hits but that didn't keep them from trying..."Walk
> Don't Run" for instance.
??? Marty, what are you talking about? The Shadows didn't record
WDR until something like '77, and it was an album track only with a
completely changed arrangement (for the worse, much worse, I might
add). In fact, WDR was offered to the Shadows to record as a single
for UK BEFORE the Ventures version was released there (right after
Apache became a huge hit), and they turned it down! They wanted to
establish themselves with their own material. Instead, the song was
recorded by John Barry 7, who had a big hit with it (though it's not
nearly as good as the Ventures' version).
> But I think you are mis-understanding my preference of
> Jorgan's "Apache" to mean that I don't love the Shadows. I totally
> dig them, have all their recordings, and have performed in a
> Shadows tribute band. Yes, they acheived far more than Jorgan did
> but I don't take the attitude of "my Shadows right or wrong". I
> trust there is at least one Shadows tune that you feel was better
> performed by another artist.
Of course, Marty. But we're not talking about just any song here.
Apache was the song that for all intents and purposes CREATED the
Shadows as an instrumental rock band, and established all the
elements of their sound (echoey, twangy Strat. hard-strummed
acoustic rhythm guitar, the bass playing melodic motifs, crisp,
jazzy drumming). To most Shadows fans it is still the
quintesssential Shadows track, absolutely perfect in every aspect
(just hang out on the Shadow Music community to see this). This is
the song that has created thousands of guitarists the world over,
some of which went on to great fame themselves. This is the song
that made the Stratocaster an iconnic instrument in all of Europe
(and I've read that the only reason why Fender kept producing the
Strat in the mid-sixties was due to huge demand for fiesta red ones
from Europe).
Yuo may personally prefer Ingmann's version, and of course that's
perfectly valid. But to make a general statement like "Ingmann did
the best early-sixties version of Apache" as though it's a matter of
fact, is just unacceptable. I bet that many, MANY more people feel
like that about the Shadows' Apache rather than Ingmann's (which
really wasn't even a rock'n'roll version). In fact, I doubt you'd
be able to find more than a few other people that feel like you,
whereas among the Shadows fans, Apache is IT! So, let's try to be a
bit objective here, shall we?
Ivan
Yeah, the Shadows were a little late with WDR. I should have used Perfidia, Blue
Star or Sleepwalk as examples of their more timely covers of hits. Yes, the
Shadows put very original interpretations on these tunes departing from the hit
versions and that does count for something but they are still covers of hits.
Jorgan also put originality into his Apache.
Apache may have been the Shad's defining number and I do like the sound and
style it initiated but Shad fans will have to get over the fact that some folks
prefer other versions. As a dyed-in-the-wool Ventures fanatic, I have never
considered it an affront to the entire Ventures career to hear someone making a
"factual" statement of preference for the Shadows or John Barry Seven version of
the V-boys defining tune, "Walk Don't Run". Both artists did fine versions. In
fact, now that I think about it, I may even prefer the Billy Strange version of
WDR.
Of course it's unacceptable to state an opinion as a matter of fact. It's
outrageous! It's Blasphemy!! Opinions can only be stated as fact in jest. BN
had me right.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: ipongrac
To:
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 5:48 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Junior plays the Ventures
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> You're right, Ivan, the Shadows didn't have to stoop to doing
> other people's hits but that didn't keep them from trying..."Walk
> Don't Run" for instance.
??? Marty, what are you talking about? The Shadows didn't record
WDR until something like '77, and it was an album track only with a
completely changed arrangement (for the worse, much worse, I might
add). In fact, WDR was offered to the Shadows to record as a single
for UK BEFORE the Ventures version was released there (right after
Apache became a huge hit), and they turned it down! They wanted to
establish themselves with their own material. Instead, the song was
recorded by John Barry 7, who had a big hit with it (though it's not
nearly as good as the Ventures' version).
> But I think you are mis-understanding my preference of
> Jorgan's "Apache" to mean that I don't love the Shadows. I totally
> dig them, have all their recordings, and have performed in a
> Shadows tribute band. Yes, they acheived far more than Jorgan did
> but I don't take the attitude of "my Shadows right or wrong". I
> trust there is at least one Shadows tune that you feel was better
> performed by another artist.
Of course, Marty. But we're not talking about just any song here.
Apache was the song that for all intents and purposes CREATED the
Shadows as an instrumental rock band, and established all the
elements of their sound (echoey, twangy Strat. hard-strummed
acoustic rhythm guitar, the bass playing melodic motifs, crisp,
jazzy drumming). To most Shadows fans it is still the
quintesssential Shadows track, absolutely perfect in every aspect
(just hang out on the Shadow Music community to see this). This is
the song that has created thousands of guitarists the world over,
some of which went on to great fame themselves. This is the song
that made the Stratocaster an iconnic instrument in all of Europe
(and I've read that the only reason why Fender kept producing the
Strat in the mid-sixties was due to huge demand for fiesta red ones
from Europe).
Yuo may personally prefer Ingmann's version, and of course that's
perfectly valid. But to make a general statement like "Ingmann did
the best early-sixties version of Apache" as though it's a matter of
fact, is just unacceptable. I bet that many, MANY more people feel
like that about the Shadows' Apache rather than Ingmann's (which
really wasn't even a rock'n'roll version). In fact, I doubt you'd
be able to find more than a few other people that feel like you,
whereas among the Shadows fans, Apache is IT! So, let's try to be a
bit objective here, shall we?
Ivan
.
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--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Yeah, the Shadows were a little late with WDR. I should have used
> Perfidia, Blue Star or Sleepwalk as examples of their more timely
> covers of hits.
All album tracks only, none of them intended to be 'hits', in other
words to cash in on the success of others. the Shadows never in the
sixties released singles of songs that were hits of somebody else
already. They covered songs for the albums cause they liked them
and cause they needed more material for the albums - and they didn't
even do that very often. (Now, of course, this all changed very
radically in the late '70s and '80s, when the Shadows almost ONLY
released other people's hits - even Bruce Welch said that the only
important thing for the Shadows starting in the late '70s was money.)
> Apache may have been the Shad's defining number and I do like the
> sound and style it initiated but Shad fans will have to get over ?
> the fact that some folks prefer other versions.
I have no problem with that - and that is not what you said in your
original statement.
> As a dyed-in-the-wool Ventures fanatic, I have never considered it
> an affront to the entire Ventures career to hear someone making
> a "factual" statement of preference for the Shadows or John Barry
> Seven version of the V-boys defining tune, "Walk Don't Run". Both
> artists did fine versions. In fact, now that I think about it, I
> may even prefer the Billy Strange version of WDR.
Marty, you didn't make a 'factual statement of PREFERENCE' - you
made what sounded like an OBJECTIVELY factual statement! Nowhere in
there did you say 'in my opinion' or 'I always liked', etc...
> Of course it's unacceptable to state an opinion as a matter of
> fact.
not what I'm saying...
> It's outrageous! It's Blasphemy!! Opinions can only be stated as
> fact in jest. BN had me right.
I don't think so - I think you were truly making a statement that
your personal opinion is objectively superior and 'correct.' Show
me how you didn't do that. If you were doing it on purpose just to
get a rise out of some people, well, I guess that says something,
doesn't it...
I know I'm taking this way too seriously, but hey, I feel
passionately about this subject. Again, if you had simply said "I
always preferred Ingmann's version of the Apache" I wouldn't said
one thing (though I would - and do - question your personal
taste ;) If you had said, "The Ventures' version of Perfidia is
much better than the Shadows' version" in a seemingly objective
manner, I doubt I would have said something, cause in fact this may
be true, though I don't know how you determine the objective
superiority of any song. But hey, you picked on Apache, you just
had to do it, so there you go!
Ivan
--- In , "Jacob Dobner"
<jacobdobner@y...> wrote:
> I am sure Ivan would prefer the 'Verb's version of Main Theme...
>
> Probably not. We only played it live once or twice. We didn't
practice
> it enough. Not nearly enough.
>
> None of us had ever heard The Shadows version of that song. All we
had
> to learn from was a video of the Troubadors doing it. And two members
> of the band didn't even hear that version.
An easy-sounding song that's quite difficult to play. The Omega Men
did it for MuSick's Shadows tribute "An Evening In Nivram".
I guess we'll have to hook you up with the original copy of the tune,
Jacob....
hi ; jorgen ingman was a guitarist in a swedish jazz orchestra who played a 335
.i think apache for him was something he just stumbled on as this was not his
normal repertoire .personally i love the way he did apache but didn,t like
anything else i heard by him .also love the shadows version too .ya gotta love
em for what they are . john ps i think there is no one greater than hank for
making every note count , knowing what not to play as much as what to play .
Marty Tippens <> wrote:Its those wonderful clean
rapid-fire sticcatto bits that Jorgan plays in his version of Apache that puts
it over the top for me. Yes, Jorgan was a Les Paul wannabe but I still like his
recordings. He put enough of his own stamp on Apache that it's not a total
carbon copy theft.. He played it as a rhumba. It may have been an attempt to
grab the hit for himself but that was the name of the game in those days. The
Beatles hadn't yet convinced everyone that you were s'pose to write your own
hits.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: ipongrac
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 7:08 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Junior plays the Ventures
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Apache fans will be glad to know that the writing credits are
> incorrectly given to Jorgan Ingman (of course Jorgan did have the
> best early '60's version).
Marty, that is just SOOO wrong on so many levels... To say that that
second-rate Les-Paul wannabe and a thief had the best early '60s
version is just unbelievably disrespectful of the Shadows, who after
all turned that song into the eternal classic - besides the main
melody, which is Lordan's, they were responsible for everything else,
including the unforgettable intro, the haunted sound, the middle
breakdown, the drum part, the driving rhythm guitar...
If you ask about Apache ANYWHERE else in the world outside the US,
there is only one band that people will bring up - The Shadows.
I object!!!
Ivan
.
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I did indeed go for the "superior opinion" technique in an effort to make it
clear that I was being tongue-and-cheek. Yes, I figured a good-hearted joust
might follow. It is sincerely my opinion that Jorgen has the better version
which is to say that I didn't make the statment for the sole purpose of "getting
a rise". When you suggest my goin' for the rise "says something", I fear our
discussion could move from infinite regress into personal attacks and I know
that's not our intention. If it were, I'd be without amo!
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: ipongrac
To:
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:18 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Junior plays the Ventures
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Yeah, the Shadows were a little late with WDR. I should have used
> Perfidia, Blue Star or Sleepwalk as examples of their more timely
> covers of hits.
All album tracks only, none of them intended to be 'hits', in other
words to cash in on the success of others. the Shadows never in the
sixties released singles of songs that were hits of somebody else
already. They covered songs for the albums cause they liked them
and cause they needed more material for the albums - and they didn't
even do that very often. (Now, of course, this all changed very
radically in the late '70s and '80s, when the Shadows almost ONLY
released other people's hits - even Bruce Welch said that the only
important thing for the Shadows starting in the late '70s was money.)
> Apache may have been the Shad's defining number and I do like the
> sound and style it initiated but Shad fans will have to get over ?
> the fact that some folks prefer other versions.
I have no problem with that - and that is not what you said in your
original statement.
> As a dyed-in-the-wool Ventures fanatic, I have never considered it
> an affront to the entire Ventures career to hear someone making
> a "factual" statement of preference for the Shadows or John Barry
> Seven version of the V-boys defining tune, "Walk Don't Run". Both
> artists did fine versions. In fact, now that I think about it, I
> may even prefer the Billy Strange version of WDR.
Marty, you didn't make a 'factual statement of PREFERENCE' - you
made what sounded like an OBJECTIVELY factual statement! Nowhere in
there did you say 'in my opinion' or 'I always liked', etc...
> Of course it's unacceptable to state an opinion as a matter of
> fact.
not what I'm saying...
> It's outrageous! It's Blasphemy!! Opinions can only be stated as
> fact in jest. BN had me right.
I don't think so - I think you were truly making a statement that
your personal opinion is objectively superior and 'correct.' Show
me how you didn't do that. If you were doing it on purpose just to
get a rise out of some people, well, I guess that says something,
doesn't it...
I know I'm taking this way too seriously, but hey, I feel
passionately about this subject. Again, if you had simply said "I
always preferred Ingmann's version of the Apache" I wouldn't said
one thing (though I would - and do - question your personal
taste ;) If you had said, "The Ventures' version of Perfidia is
much better than the Shadows' version" in a seemingly objective
manner, I doubt I would have said something, cause in fact this may
be true, though I don't know how you determine the objective
superiority of any song. But hey, you picked on Apache, you just
had to do it, so there you go!
Ivan
.
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--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> I did indeed go for the "superior opinion" technique in an effort
> to make it clear that I was being tongue-and-cheek.
As you know, any sort of irony or 'tongue-in-cheek'-ness is
notoriously difficult to detect in email exchanges or text on a list
like this. so, I would have to say that I really had no idea that
this was your intention. I think smiley faces or winks are
absolutely a must in such a case.
> Yes, I figured a good-hearted joust might follow.
That it did! Well, at least the joust part; hopefully it was mostly
good-hearted...
> It is sincerely my opinion that Jorgen has the better version
> which is to say that I didn't make the statment for the sole
> purpose of "getting a rise".
Ah, but you were hoping to instigate a 'joust', right? So, you WERE
going for 'getting a rise'...
> When you suggest my goin' for the rise "says something", I fear
> our discussion could move from infinite regress into personal
> attacks and I know that's not our intention.
Yes, no need to go there at all...
Whew, well THAT really got the week off to an exciting start!!
Ivan
