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Boy Brian, I am impressed....one question, in the case
of a Jazzmaster, Jaguar, or any other guitar where the
strings pass over a bridge and are anchored behind as
say the mentioned, doesn't this additional length add
an additional variable to your equation.....I'm no
math wizard.....but I like tight strings.....with the
additional string length we have both mentioned, I do
know that I can get away with literally no relief in
the neck which translates into a really low string
action.....this is good ya? my beloved Jazzmasters
end up with a fightenly low action. Smooth as a
baby's fanny......Probably the reason I'll pick one of
them up first every time......I need all the help I
can get.......eddie k
--- Brian Neal <> wrote:
> If you want to be a total geek about it, the
> classical formula for the
> frequency of a vibrating string is:
>
> f = (1 / 2L) * SQRT(T / u)
>
> where
> f = frequency
> L = length of the string
> T = tension
> u = linear density of the string
>
> So lets say we play open A on a Strat. In order to
> play the same
> pitched open A on a shorter scale Jaguar (smaller L)
> with the same
> type of strings, we need to make T smaller to make
> everything equal
> out. So the the tension on shorter scale guitars is
> a bit lower IF you
> use the same type of strings (same density).
>
> The above analysis ignores the break angle over the
> bridge..it just
> assumes the string is fixed at 2 points. You could
> probably assume
> that for a strat, but maybe not for a
> Jazzmaster/Jaguar. That
> complicates things further :-)
>
> BN
> (former Physics minor)
>
>
>
>
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--- In , John McCorvey
<eddiekatcher@y...> wrote:
> Boy Brian, I am impressed....one question, in the case
> of a Jazzmaster, Jaguar, or any other guitar where the
> strings pass over a bridge and are anchored behind as
> say the mentioned, doesn't this additional length add
> an additional variable to your equation.....
Yeah I'm sure it does...but I have no idea how to characterize that.
I am *really* on shaky physics ground now and had probably just better
shut up. :-) You could probably say that the Jazzmaster would have a
longer *effective* string length compared to a Strat because of the
string length behind the bridge, even though it doesn't contribute as
much because it is bent over the bridge. And maybe as a result you
would get *slighly* lower string tension than a strat. But again, I
should just shut up here...I can hear the ice cracking under my feet...
My physics professor in college was undertaking all kinds of crazy
measurements of vibrating strings in musical instruments. Apparently
if you look really close, it's not a well understood phenomenon.
BN
Actually, Brian, the wave analysis of vibrating guitar strings is fairly well
understood. When the displacement of the string is relatively small, as it is
with vibrating musical instrument strings, the partial differential equation can
be approximated as "linear" which simplifies it greatly.
I have trouble with the notion that the equation for Frequency as a function of
Length, Tension and Density should have an additional variable of anchoring
distance or anchoring angle. Sustain and dampening are affected by those
additional variables due to the different way pressure is put on the bridge. I'm
not so sure that frequency would be affected. If it were, the variables of
anchoring distance and/or anchoring angle would be very negligible.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Neal
To:
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 7:16 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control question
--- In , John McCorvey
<eddiekatcher@y...> wrote:
> Boy Brian, I am impressed....one question, in the case
> of a Jazzmaster, Jaguar, or any other guitar where the
> strings pass over a bridge and are anchored behind as
> say the mentioned, doesn't this additional length add
> an additional variable to your equation.....
Yeah I'm sure it does...but I have no idea how to characterize that.
I am *really* on shaky physics ground now and had probably just better
shut up. :-) You could probably say that the Jazzmaster would have a
longer *effective* string length compared to a Strat because of the
string length behind the bridge, even though it doesn't contribute as
much because it is bent over the bridge. And maybe as a result you
would get *slighly* lower string tension than a strat. But again, I
should just shut up here...I can hear the ice cracking under my feet...
My physics professor in college was undertaking all kinds of crazy
measurements of vibrating strings in musical instruments. Apparently
if you look really close, it's not a well understood phenomenon.
BN
.
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f = (1 / 2L) * SQRT(T / u)
I don't think more than 2 people care, but in an offline conversation
Marty pointed out a mistake I made. If we do assume that the added
string length behind the bridge on a Jazzmaster does contribute
*something* to a longer effective string length, then you would need
to increase the tension to keep the frequency the same. In other words
if you increase the denominator you have to increase the numerator to
keep things equal. That's pretty intuitive I think. If you have a
longer wire then you have to pull it taught more to get it to some
frequency compared to a shorter wire.
So my feeble theory would be that a Jazzmaster would have "tighter"
feeling strings than a Strat when strung with the exact same gauge and
brand of strings.
Does anyone have anecdotal evidence? How do strats and JM's feel to
you when strung with the same strings?
Okay I am done being an armchair physicist.
BN
Brian,
Not completely sure but here's what I think: the effective string
length is determined only by the distance between the nut and the
bridge - this is the length that determines the frequency of the
vibrations of the string. Adding more length to the part of the string
between the bridge and the trem bar or whatever may affect tone or
other qualities, but not the frequency, assuming equal tensionon the
string.
Casey
--- In , "Brian Neal" <bgneal@g...> wrote:
> f = (1 / 2L) * SQRT(T / u)
>
> I don't think more than 2 people care, but in an offline conversation
> Marty pointed out a mistake I made. If we do assume that the added
> string length behind the bridge on a Jazzmaster does contribute
> *something* to a longer effective string length, then you would need
> to increase the tension to keep the frequency the same. In other words
> if you increase the denominator you have to increase the numerator to
> keep things equal. That's pretty intuitive I think. If you have a
> longer wire then you have to pull it taught more to get it to some
> frequency compared to a shorter wire.
>
> So my feeble theory would be that a Jazzmaster would have "tighter"
> feeling strings than a Strat when strung with the exact same gauge and
> brand of strings.
>
> Does anyone have anecdotal evidence? How do strats and JM's feel to
> you when strung with the same strings?
>
> Okay I am done being an armchair physicist.
>
> BN
Yeah what he said, below
sorry couldn't resist :-)
Jeff(bigtikidude)--- In , "Marty
Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Actually, Brian, the wave analysis of vibrating guitar strings is
fairly well understood. When the displacement of the string is
relatively small, as it is with vibrating musical instrument strings,
the partial differential equation can be approximated as "linear"
which simplifies it greatly.
>
> I have trouble with the notion that the equation for Frequency as a
function of Length, Tension and Density should have an additional
variable of anchoring distance or anchoring angle. Sustain and
dampening are affected by those additional variables due to the
different way pressure is put on the bridge. I'm not so sure that
frequency would be affected. If it were, the variables of anchoring
distance and/or anchoring angle would be very negligible.
>
> -Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian Neal
> To:
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 7:16 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control
question
>
>
> --- In , John McCorvey
> <eddiekatcher@y...> wrote:
> > Boy Brian, I am impressed....one question, in the case
> > of a Jazzmaster, Jaguar, or any other guitar where the
> > strings pass over a bridge and are anchored behind as
> > say the mentioned, doesn't this additional length add
> > an additional variable to your equation.....
>
> Yeah I'm sure it does...but I have no idea how to characterize
that.
> I am *really* on shaky physics ground now and had probably just
better
> shut up. :-) You could probably say that the Jazzmaster would
have a
> longer *effective* string length compared to a Strat because of
the
> string length behind the bridge, even though it doesn't
contribute as
> much because it is bent over the bridge. And maybe as a result you
> would get *slighly* lower string tension than a strat. But again,
I
> should just shut up here...I can hear the ice cracking under my
feet...
>
> My physics professor in college was undertaking all kinds of crazy
> measurements of vibrating strings in musical instruments.
Apparently
> if you look really close, it's not a well understood phenomenon.
>
> BN
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
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>
>
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You should have resisted, Big T. Be carefull to what you agree! ;-)
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 10:09 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control question
Yeah what he said, below
sorry couldn't resist :-)
Jeff(bigtikidude)--- In , "Marty
Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Actually, Brian, the wave analysis of vibrating guitar strings is
fairly well understood. When the displacement of the string is
relatively small, as it is with vibrating musical instrument strings,
the partial differential equation can be approximated as "linear"
which simplifies it greatly.
>
> I have trouble with the notion that the equation for Frequency as a
function of Length, Tension and Density should have an additional
variable of anchoring distance or anchoring angle. Sustain and
dampening are affected by those additional variables due to the
different way pressure is put on the bridge. I'm not so sure that
frequency would be affected. If it were, the variables of anchoring
distance and/or anchoring angle would be very negligible.
>
> -Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian Neal
> To:
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 7:16 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control
question
>
>
> --- In , John McCorvey
> <eddiekatcher@y...> wrote:
> > Boy Brian, I am impressed....one question, in the case
> > of a Jazzmaster, Jaguar, or any other guitar where the
> > strings pass over a bridge and are anchored behind as
> > say the mentioned, doesn't this additional length add
> > an additional variable to your equation.....
>
> Yeah I'm sure it does...but I have no idea how to characterize
that.
> I am *really* on shaky physics ground now and had probably just
better
> shut up. :-) You could probably say that the Jazzmaster would
have a
> longer *effective* string length compared to a Strat because of
the
> string length behind the bridge, even though it doesn't
contribute as
> much because it is bent over the bridge. And maybe as a result you
> would get *slighly* lower string tension than a strat. But again,
I
> should just shut up here...I can hear the ice cracking under my
feet...
>
> My physics professor in college was undertaking all kinds of crazy
> measurements of vibrating strings in musical instruments.
Apparently
> if you look really close, it's not a well understood phenomenon.
>
> BN
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
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>
> a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
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don 't know whether I 'm person #2 or #3, but I love pointless
uneducated guesses about string tension.
from what I remember form physics classes, and just seems intuitivly
right, is that the string length behind bar as well as angle have
SOME influence, because IN THEORY the strings only vibrate between
nut and bridge, but in reality the two short parts vibrate as well,
effectivly functioning as 'knots' in the wave.
even if it doesn't affect frequency, it'll effect the amplitude of
the strings, which I think affects volume rather then pitch, but
might affect the feel the string-tension.
okay, enough yabba yabba - I'm of contemplating the frequency band
effects of d'Addario's lacquered ball ends vs. other brand's plain
brass ball ends.
WR
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> You should have resisted, Big T. Be carefull to what you agree! ;-)
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 10:09 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control
question
>
>
> Yeah what he said, below
> sorry couldn't resist :-)
>
> Jeff(bigtikidude)--- In , "Marty
> Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > Actually, Brian, the wave analysis of vibrating guitar strings
is
> fairly well understood. When the displacement of the string is
> relatively small, as it is with vibrating musical instrument
strings,
> the partial differential equation can be approximated as "linear"
> which simplifies it greatly.
> >
> > I have trouble with the notion that the equation for Frequency
as a
> function of Length, Tension and Density should have an additional
> variable of anchoring distance or anchoring angle. Sustain and
> dampening are affected by those additional variables due to the
> different way pressure is put on the bridge. I'm not so sure that
> frequency would be affected. If it were, the variables of
anchoring
> distance and/or anchoring angle would be very negligible.
> >
> > -Marty
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Brian Neal
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 7:16 PM
> > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control
> question
> >
> >
> > --- In , John McCorvey
> > <eddiekatcher@y...> wrote:
> > > Boy Brian, I am impressed....one question, in the case
> > > of a Jazzmaster, Jaguar, or any other guitar where the
> > > strings pass over a bridge and are anchored behind as
> > > say the mentioned, doesn't this additional length add
> > > an additional variable to your equation.....
> >
> > Yeah I'm sure it does...but I have no idea how to
characterize
> that.
> > I am *really* on shaky physics ground now and had probably
just
> better
> > shut up. :-) You could probably say that the Jazzmaster would
> have a
> > longer *effective* string length compared to a Strat because
of
> the
> > string length behind the bridge, even though it doesn't
> contribute as
> > much because it is bent over the bridge. And maybe as a
result you
> > would get *slighly* lower string tension than a strat. But
again,
> I
> > should just shut up here...I can hear the ice cracking under
my
> feet...
> >
> > My physics professor in college was undertaking all kinds of
crazy
> > measurements of vibrating strings in musical instruments.
> Apparently
> > if you look really close, it's not a well understood
phenomenon.
> >
> > BN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for
archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ----------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
> >
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> of Service.
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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Yeah WR, I can see the amplitude being affected by the angle and length of
string behind the bridge as that would affect dampening at the bridge.
A node is a point on the string where the wave doesn't move. Is that what you
are referring to when you day a "knot" in the wave?
-Marty.
----- Original Message -----
From: mono_tones_1
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 2:01 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control question
don 't know whether I 'm person #2 or #3, but I love pointless
uneducated guesses about string tension.
from what I remember form physics classes, and just seems intuitivly
right, is that the string length behind bar as well as angle have
SOME influence, because IN THEORY the strings only vibrate between
nut and bridge, but in reality the two short parts vibrate as well,
effectivly functioning as 'knots' in the wave.
even if it doesn't affect frequency, it'll effect the amplitude of
the strings, which I think affects volume rather then pitch, but
might affect the feel the string-tension.
okay, enough yabba yabba - I'm of contemplating the frequency band
effects of d'Addario's lacquered ball ends vs. other brand's plain
brass ball ends.
WR
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> You should have resisted, Big T. Be carefull to what you agree! ;-)
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 10:09 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control
question
>
>
> Yeah what he said, below
> sorry couldn't resist :-)
>
> Jeff(bigtikidude)--- In , "Marty
> Tippens" <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > Actually, Brian, the wave analysis of vibrating guitar strings
is
> fairly well understood. When the displacement of the string is
> relatively small, as it is with vibrating musical instrument
strings,
> the partial differential equation can be approximated as "linear"
> which simplifies it greatly.
> >
> > I have trouble with the notion that the equation for Frequency
as a
> function of Length, Tension and Density should have an additional
> variable of anchoring distance or anchoring angle. Sustain and
> dampening are affected by those additional variables due to the
> different way pressure is put on the bridge. I'm not so sure that
> frequency would be affected. If it were, the variables of
anchoring
> distance and/or anchoring angle would be very negligible.
> >
> > -Marty
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Brian Neal
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 7:16 PM
> > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] String Tension, was Re: Tone Control
> question
> >
> >
> > --- In , John McCorvey
> > <eddiekatcher@y...> wrote:
> > > Boy Brian, I am impressed....one question, in the case
> > > of a Jazzmaster, Jaguar, or any other guitar where the
> > > strings pass over a bridge and are anchored behind as
> > > say the mentioned, doesn't this additional length add
> > > an additional variable to your equation.....
> >
> > Yeah I'm sure it does...but I have no idea how to
characterize
> that.
> > I am *really* on shaky physics ground now and had probably
just
> better
> > shut up. :-) You could probably say that the Jazzmaster would
> have a
> > longer *effective* string length compared to a Strat because
of
> the
> > string length behind the bridge, even though it doesn't
> contribute as
> > much because it is bent over the bridge. And maybe as a
result you
> > would get *slighly* lower string tension than a strat. But
again,
> I
> > should just shut up here...I can hear the ice cracking under
my
> feet...
> >
> > My physics professor in college was undertaking all kinds of
crazy
> > measurements of vibrating strings in musical instruments.
> Apparently
> > if you look really close, it's not a well understood
phenomenon.
> >
> > BN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for
archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ----------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
> of Service.
> >
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