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Hey,
I just read something interesting on the Fender Field Guide
():
"Thru the 50s, 60s and 70s Fender was in a wattage race with the other amp
manufacturers. Fender sought to increase the output of the amps while
lowering the amount of distortion. As a result, the Silver Face amps tend to
be "cleaner" and sometimes sterile sounding even at high volume than Black
Face amps. Most people believe that the black face amps of the 60s are
better sounding when overdriven than the silver face amps."
I've no real experience with either Silver or Black Face vintage Fender
amps. If the Silver Face amps are "cleaner" would they be more ideal for
Surf Music? It seems most people, especially the blooze and hard rock guys,
like the black face amps better. There is even a mod to turn your silver
face amp circuit into a black face amp circuit.
Anyone have experience with both and can comment on the differences?
Thanks,
BN
Hey Brian,
Perfect. Great question...one that I've been researching for about a
year. Here's my experience.
I take my silverface '76 Twin Reverb into my tech, and tell him I want a
cap, tube and bias done on it. I mention we play surf, and he says "Oh, and
OF COURSE! A silverface! The BEST for surf!" and I got this huge question
mark on my face.
Now lets rewind the tape. The Nebulas are in our practice space, and
Rudy has just recieved his '65 Blackface Twin Reverb from an Ebay auction he
won. 85 watts, same as my '76. The notable difference will be that this Twin
he has contains two matched D120Fs, Fender and JBL's "little brother" to the
much larger D130F used in Showman cabs.
The difference between a D120F and basically any other speaker is the
weight, overall size, and the magnet. All the description in the world can't
really prepare you for what one looks like after you've gotten used to
seeing the thin-magnet speakers of the 70's.
OK, so we turn on, and he hits an Em and it almost compresses your chest
cavity. Jaw agape, I swore off silverface eqiupment for all of eternity.
Basically, yes, the silverface stuff is very clean if you want it to be.
However, from 68-76 the SF amps has just the standard volume knob. From
77-82 they had both a volume knob and a "master volume" knob, which
basically allowed you to add a ton of gain without overdriving the amp
(download AC/DC "Hells Bells" tablature *now*) AND...AND....that "master"
volume knob had a push/pull feature which allowed you to UP the wattage to
135 watts by pulling the switch into the "out" position. Thats all fine and
dandy, but this is where the littany about speakers I gave comes into play.
The stock speakers that came in that '76 Twin were...doodoo. Crap. Shite.
They were in no way capable of pushing that much power, and it just went
from sounding like "loud ass" to sounding like "distorted loud ass".
The difference in the amps was that the '65 had such a huge, full sound.
It was incredible. It's the closest I've ever heard a non-Showman come to
sounding like a Showman. In comparison, the silverface amp of the same type
sound thin and tinny.
...and that is my experience with SF vs. BF.
God love the Fender Field Guide. Does anyone know if theres some kind of
universal knowledge base for Jaguars that exists like the FFG?
If there isn't I'm creating one.
-Dano
-=The Nebulas=-
>From: "Brian Neal" <>
>Reply-To:
>To: <>
>Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Fender Silverface Amps
>Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:24:07 -0600
>
>Hey,
>I just read something interesting on the Fender Field Guide
>():
>
>"Thru the 50s, 60s and 70s Fender was in a wattage race with the other amp
>manufacturers. Fender sought to increase the output of the amps while
>lowering the amount of distortion. As a result, the Silver Face amps tend
>to
>be "cleaner" and sometimes sterile sounding even at high volume than Black
>Face amps. Most people believe that the black face amps of the 60s are
>better sounding when overdriven than the silver face amps."
>
>I've no real experience with either Silver or Black Face vintage Fender
>amps. If the Silver Face amps are "cleaner" would they be more ideal for
>Surf Music? It seems most people, especially the blooze and hard rock guys,
>like the black face amps better. There is even a mod to turn your silver
>face amp circuit into a black face amp circuit.
>
>Anyone have experience with both and can comment on the differences?
>
>Thanks,
>BN
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Hi Dano,
Very interesting! I didn't think of the speakers factoring into the
equation. So how about this: suppose one was to replace the stock speakers
in a silver face twin reverb with something more heavy duty (like what is
found in the older black face model). Would that even things out? Or is the
sound still significantly different?
As to your question about a comparable field guide for Jaguars, there are a
few good sites out there. Have you seen the Flash interactive Jag that shows
how the switches work? Here are a few good links: (look in the middle of the page for
the interactive Jag link) (Los Mel's pages)
There is also Jim Shine from the Fender Forum (who lurks here). That guy can
tell you exactly what type of set screw was used on production Jaguars in
the first week of April 1963 and many other obscure details. He was/is
writing a book about Jazzmaster/Jaguars.
Thanks!
BN
> -----Original Message-----
> From: -=Dan Ware=- [mailto:]
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:36 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Fender Silverface Amps
>
>
> Hey Brian,
>
> Perfect. Great question...one that I've been researching for about a
> year. Here's my experience.
>
> I take my silverface '76 Twin Reverb into my tech, and tell
> him I want a
> cap, tube and bias done on it. I mention we play surf, and he
> says "Oh, and
> OF COURSE! A silverface! The BEST for surf!" and I got this huge question
> mark on my face.
>
> Now lets rewind the tape. The Nebulas are in our practice space, and
> Rudy has just recieved his '65 Blackface Twin Reverb from an Ebay
> auction he
> won. 85 watts, same as my '76. The notable difference will be
> that this Twin
> he has contains two matched D120Fs, Fender and JBL's "little
> brother" to the
> much larger D130F used in Showman cabs.
>
> The difference between a D120F and basically any other speaker is the
> weight, overall size, and the magnet. All the description in the
> world can't
> really prepare you for what one looks like after you've gotten used to
> seeing the thin-magnet speakers of the 70's.
>
> OK, so we turn on, and he hits an Em and it almost compresses
> your chest
> cavity. Jaw agape, I swore off silverface eqiupment for all of eternity.
>
> Basically, yes, the silverface stuff is very clean if you want
> it to be.
> However, from 68-76 the SF amps has just the standard volume knob. From
> 77-82 they had both a volume knob and a "master volume" knob, which
> basically allowed you to add a ton of gain without overdriving the amp
> (download AC/DC "Hells Bells" tablature *now*) AND...AND....that "master"
> volume knob had a push/pull feature which allowed you to UP the
> wattage to
> 135 watts by pulling the switch into the "out" position. Thats
> all fine and
> dandy, but this is where the littany about speakers I gave comes
> into play.
>
> The stock speakers that came in that '76 Twin were...doodoo.
> Crap. Shite.
>
> They were in no way capable of pushing that much power, and it
> just went
> from sounding like "loud ass" to sounding like "distorted loud ass".
>
> The difference in the amps was that the '65 had such a huge,
> full sound.
> It was incredible. It's the closest I've ever heard a non-Showman come to
> sounding like a Showman. In comparison, the silverface amp of the
> same type
> sound thin and tinny.
>
> ...and that is my experience with SF vs. BF.
>
> God love the Fender Field Guide. Does anyone know if theres
> some kind of
> universal knowledge base for Jaguars that exists like the FFG?
>
> If there isn't I'm creating one.
>
>
> -Dano
> -=The Nebulas=-
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Brian Neal" <>
> >Reply-To:
> >To: <>
> >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Fender Silverface Amps
> >Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:24:07 -0600
> >
> >Hey,
> >I just read something interesting on the Fender Field Guide
> >():
> >
> >"Thru the 50s, 60s and 70s Fender was in a wattage race with the
> other amp
> >manufacturers. Fender sought to increase the output of the amps while
> >lowering the amount of distortion. As a result, the Silver Face
> amps tend
> >to
> >be "cleaner" and sometimes sterile sounding even at high volume
> than Black
> >Face amps. Most people believe that the black face amps of the 60s are
> >better sounding when overdriven than the silver face amps."
> >
> >I've no real experience with either Silver or Black Face vintage Fender
> >amps. If the Silver Face amps are "cleaner" would they be more ideal for
> >Surf Music? It seems most people, especially the blooze and hard
> rock guys,
> >like the black face amps better. There is even a mod to turn your silver
> >face amp circuit into a black face amp circuit.
> >
> >Anyone have experience with both and can comment on the differences?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >BN
> >
I thought about that...after I Ebayed the amp last month.
I'm just gonna have to say "but I like the looks of a blackface!"
yeah...thats it.
I've had those mxiing speaker experiment blow up in my face. I had a
Vintage reconed D130F which i installed in my Vibrasonic, and it sounded
like SHITE compared to the eminence speaker that it came with stock.
-Dano
-=The Nebulas=-
>From: "Brian Neal" <>
>Reply-To:
>To: <>
>Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] Fender Silverface Amps
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:38:19 -0600
>
>Hi Dano,
>
>Very interesting! I didn't think of the speakers factoring into the
>equation. So how about this: suppose one was to replace the stock speakers
>in a silver face twin reverb with something more heavy duty (like what is
>found in the older black face model). Would that even things out? Or is the
>sound still significantly different?
>
>As to your question about a comparable field guide for Jaguars, there are a
>few good sites out there. Have you seen the Flash interactive Jag that
>shows
>how the switches work? Here are a few good links:
>
>
> (look in the middle of the page for
>the interactive Jag link)
>
> (Los Mel's pages)
>
>There is also Jim Shine from the Fender Forum (who lurks here). That guy
>can
>tell you exactly what type of set screw was used on production Jaguars in
>the first week of April 1963 and many other obscure details. He was/is
>writing a book about Jazzmaster/Jaguars.
>
>Thanks!
>BN
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: -=Dan Ware=- [mailto:]
> > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:36 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Fender Silverface Amps
> >
> >
> > Hey Brian,
> >
> > Perfect. Great question...one that I've been researching for about a
> > year. Here's my experience.
> >
> > I take my silverface '76 Twin Reverb into my tech, and tell
> > him I want a
> > cap, tube and bias done on it. I mention we play surf, and he
> > says "Oh, and
> > OF COURSE! A silverface! The BEST for surf!" and I got this huge
>question
> > mark on my face.
> >
> > Now lets rewind the tape. The Nebulas are in our practice space, and
> > Rudy has just recieved his '65 Blackface Twin Reverb from an Ebay
> > auction he
> > won. 85 watts, same as my '76. The notable difference will be
> > that this Twin
> > he has contains two matched D120Fs, Fender and JBL's "little
> > brother" to the
> > much larger D130F used in Showman cabs.
> >
> > The difference between a D120F and basically any other speaker is
>the
> > weight, overall size, and the magnet. All the description in the
> > world can't
> > really prepare you for what one looks like after you've gotten used to
> > seeing the thin-magnet speakers of the 70's.
> >
> > OK, so we turn on, and he hits an Em and it almost compresses
> > your chest
> > cavity. Jaw agape, I swore off silverface eqiupment for all of eternity.
> >
> > Basically, yes, the silverface stuff is very clean if you want
> > it to be.
> > However, from 68-76 the SF amps has just the standard volume knob. From
> > 77-82 they had both a volume knob and a "master volume" knob, which
> > basically allowed you to add a ton of gain without overdriving the amp
> > (download AC/DC "Hells Bells" tablature *now*) AND...AND....that
>"master"
> > volume knob had a push/pull feature which allowed you to UP the
> > wattage to
> > 135 watts by pulling the switch into the "out" position. Thats
> > all fine and
> > dandy, but this is where the littany about speakers I gave comes
> > into play.
> >
> > The stock speakers that came in that '76 Twin were...doodoo.
> > Crap. Shite.
> >
> > They were in no way capable of pushing that much power, and it
> > just went
> > from sounding like "loud ass" to sounding like "distorted loud ass".
> >
> > The difference in the amps was that the '65 had such a huge,
> > full sound.
> > It was incredible. It's the closest I've ever heard a non-Showman come
>to
> > sounding like a Showman. In comparison, the silverface amp of the
> > same type
> > sound thin and tinny.
> >
> > ...and that is my experience with SF vs. BF.
> >
> > God love the Fender Field Guide. Does anyone know if theres
> > some kind of
> > universal knowledge base for Jaguars that exists like the FFG?
> >
> > If there isn't I'm creating one.
> >
> >
> > -Dano
> > -=The Nebulas=-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Brian Neal" <>
> > >Reply-To:
> > >To: <>
> > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Fender Silverface Amps
> > >Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:24:07 -0600
> > >
> > >Hey,
> > >I just read something interesting on the Fender Field Guide
> > >():
> > >
> > >"Thru the 50s, 60s and 70s Fender was in a wattage race with the
> > other amp
> > >manufacturers. Fender sought to increase the output of the amps while
> > >lowering the amount of distortion. As a result, the Silver Face
> > amps tend
> > >to
> > >be "cleaner" and sometimes sterile sounding even at high volume
> > than Black
> > >Face amps. Most people believe that the black face amps of the 60s are
> > >better sounding when overdriven than the silver face amps."
> > >
> > >I've no real experience with either Silver or Black Face vintage Fender
> > >amps. If the Silver Face amps are "cleaner" would they be more ideal
>for
> > >Surf Music? It seems most people, especially the blooze and hard
> > rock guys,
> > >like the black face amps better. There is even a mod to turn your
>silver
> > >face amp circuit into a black face amp circuit.
> > >
> > >Anyone have experience with both and can comment on the differences?
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >BN
> > >
>
_________________________________________________________________
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-Dan,
What if you were to put those Same JBL speakers in the Silveface
amp? How would that sound? Or Could they handle the Wattage? I heard
from someone that JBL makes a newer speaker, similar to the D120's or
D 130's but is even more gargantuan in size of the Magnet. And Can
handle something like 200 hundred or 300 hundred watts. I would love
to hear that. Total Headroom, and No worry of the speaker distorting.
Also note that a Sealed Cabinite sounds better to some, but looses
a little bit of Volume. You gain control over the speaker by not
letting it freefloat in a box where the air moves freely.But loose
the Voulme(sound) of that exiting air making notes. Twins sound nice,
but don't have that low end umph that a Showman, or Dual Showman have.
Jeff(bigtikidude)
-- In , "-=Dan Ware=-"
<reverbtank@h...> wrote:
> Hey Brian,
>
> Perfect. Great question...one that I've been researching for
about a
> year. Here's my experience.
>
> I take my silverface '76 Twin Reverb into my tech, and tell him
I want a
> cap, tube and bias done on it. I mention we play surf, and he
says "Oh, and
> OF COURSE! A silverface! The BEST for surf!" and I got this huge
question
> mark on my face.
>
> Now lets rewind the tape. The Nebulas are in our practice
space, and
> Rudy has just recieved his '65 Blackface Twin Reverb from an Ebay
auction he
> won. 85 watts, same as my '76. The notable difference will be that
this Twin
> he has contains two matched D120Fs, Fender and JBL's "little
brother" to the
> much larger D130F used in Showman cabs.
>
> The difference between a D120F and basically any other speaker
is the
> weight, overall size, and the magnet. All the description in the
world can't
> really prepare you for what one looks like after you've gotten used
to
> seeing the thin-magnet speakers of the 70's.
>
> OK, so we turn on, and he hits an Em and it almost compresses
your chest
> cavity. Jaw agape, I swore off silverface eqiupment for all of
eternity.
>
> Basically, yes, the silverface stuff is very clean if you want
it to be.
> However, from 68-76 the SF amps has just the standard volume knob.
From
> 77-82 they had both a volume knob and a "master volume" knob, which
> basically allowed you to add a ton of gain without overdriving the
amp
> (download AC/DC "Hells Bells" tablature *now*)
AND...AND....that "master"
> volume knob had a push/pull feature which allowed you to UP the
wattage to
> 135 watts by pulling the switch into the "out" position. Thats all
fine and
> dandy, but this is where the littany about speakers I gave comes
into play.
>
> The stock speakers that came in that '76 Twin were...doodoo.
Crap. Shite.
>
> They were in no way capable of pushing that much power, and it
just went
> from sounding like "loud ass" to sounding like "distorted loud ass".
>
> The difference in the amps was that the '65 had such a huge,
full sound.
> It was incredible. It's the closest I've ever heard a non-Showman
come to
> sounding like a Showman. In comparison, the silverface amp of the
same type
> sound thin and tinny.
>
> ...and that is my experience with SF vs. BF.
>
> God love the Fender Field Guide. Does anyone know if theres some
kind of
> universal knowledge base for Jaguars that exists like the FFG?
>
> If there isn't I'm creating one.
>
>
> -Dano
> -=The Nebulas=-
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Brian Neal" <bneal@z...>
> >Reply-To:
> >To: <>
> >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Fender Silverface Amps
> >Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:24:07 -0600
> >
> >Hey,
> >I just read something interesting on the Fender Field Guide
> >():
> >
> >"Thru the 50s, 60s and 70s Fender was in a wattage race with the
other amp
> >manufacturers. Fender sought to increase the output of the amps
while
> >lowering the amount of distortion. As a result, the Silver Face
amps tend
> >to
> >be "cleaner" and sometimes sterile sounding even at high volume
than Black
> >Face amps. Most people believe that the black face amps of the 60s
are
> >better sounding when overdriven than the silver face amps."
> >
> >I've no real experience with either Silver or Black Face vintage
Fender
> >amps. If the Silver Face amps are "cleaner" would they be more
ideal for
> >Surf Music? It seems most people, especially the blooze and hard
rock guys,
> >like the black face amps better. There is even a mod to turn your
silver
> >face amp circuit into a black face amp circuit.
> >
> >Anyone have experience with both and can comment on the
differences?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >BN
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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