Menu
Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and its
too nebula-ous of a term.
What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
--- In , Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and its
> too nebula-ous of a term.
>
> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
You'll get a bunch of different answers, but I generally think it goes
like this:
1st Wave: All the original 60's stuff
2nd Wave: 80's revival - Jon & The Nightriders, Halibuts, Surf
Raiders, Paul Johnson returns to surf, South Bay Reunion '86
3rd Wave: 90's explosion; lots of interest due to Pulp Fiction
I tend to think we are still in the 3rd Wave...there really hasn't
been an upswing to justify a 4th Wave, and things seem to be
sustaining themselves after a drop off in the late 90's.
BN
The answer to are they really that discrete depends on whether you
define them from a musicological or time period point of view. Most
people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not jive
with the music's evolution or sound.
First Wave: The Heyday
The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a line
in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of Mr.
Moto (5.61) and Dick Dales recording of Lets Go Trippin (8.61).
Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will generally
agree this is where it started.
The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the reverb,
took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
instros is the Chantays Pipeline. Within the first wave, there were
actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays, the
Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original Surfaris,
the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
By 63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
sound effects. By 64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
changing the sound significantly. By 65, the end was at hand. The
first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd singles
and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
sixties.
Second Wave: The Revival
The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the first
wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of the
past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the beginnings
of the third wave (more later).
The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the Nightriders. In
79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to them
(79 and 80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the El
Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge, and
the Evasions, among others.
This wave continues today in the trad bands.
Third Wave: Rebirth
Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution, the
sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just as
the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco, West
Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects, space
themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the first
few years, so the revival would give birth to reinvention.
Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third wave. The
Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams,
Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start with
rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary. The
Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think of
them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
sounds for a significantly different sound.
The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until around
1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as a
platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece, freed
to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of todays
bands descend from.
From a volume of bands and releases point of view, its more like a
calendar.
First Wave: 1961-1965
Second Wave: 1979-1986
Third Wave: 1989-2000
Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have little
in common. Its not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of these
periods.
Thats my story, and Im sticking to it!
Phil
--- Rob Campbell <> wrote:
Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and its
too nebula-ous of a term.
What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
Thanks both of you for your answers, and thanks for the details history, Phil!
I prefer the musical nuance taxonomy but I appreciating knowing the
chronology as well. I guess I got into 2nd wave (by sound) in the
late 80s/early 90s, when there seemed to be a few retro/traditional
surf bands tagging along the grunge/indie revolution (or at least
opening for those bands at "alternative" clubs), though this is "3rd
wave" by time.
Great stuff.
On 7/26/05, Phil Dirt <> wrote:
>
> First Wave: The Heyday
Hey Phil,
Do you notice any consistant characteristics that would seperate the current, or
newest
wave from previous periods?
joe
--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...> wrote:
> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether you
> define them from a musicological or time period point of view. Most
> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not jive
> with the music's evolution or sound.
>
> First Wave: The Heyday
>
> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a line
> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'" (8.61).
> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will generally
> agree this is where it started.
>
> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the reverb,
> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there were
> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays, the
> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original Surfaris,
> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
>
> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd singles
> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
> sixties.
>
> Second Wave: The Revival
>
> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the first
> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of the
> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the beginnings
> of the third wave (more later).
>
> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the Nightriders. In
> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to them
> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the El
> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge, and
> the Evasions, among others.
>
> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
>
> Third Wave: Rebirth
>
> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution, the
> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just as
> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco, West
> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects, space
> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the first
> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
>
> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third wave. The
> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams,
> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start with
> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary. The
> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think of
> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
> sounds for a significantly different sound.
>
> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until around
> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as a
> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece, freed
> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of today's
> bands descend from.
>
> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like a
> calendar.
>
> First Wave: 1961-1965
> Second Wave: 1979-1986
> Third Wave: 1989-2000
> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
>
> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have little
> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of these
> periods.
>
> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
>
> Phil
>
> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and its
> too nebula-ous of a term.
>
> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
I second Brian's breakdown of the waves of surf music. Although some of the
third wave bands might be mentioned. Slacktone and The Fathoms represent two of
the best polar opposites of the third wave, modern vs. trad.
If you look at Phil Dirt's website, you'll find purdy much all the bands of all
the waves.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Neal
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
--- In , Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and its
> too nebula-ous of a term.
>
> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
You'll get a bunch of different answers, but I generally think it goes
like this:
1st Wave: All the original 60's stuff
2nd Wave: 80's revival - Jon & The Nightriders, Halibuts, Surf
Raiders, Paul Johnson returns to surf, South Bay Reunion '86
3rd Wave: 90's explosion; lots of interest due to Pulp Fiction
I tend to think we are still in the 3rd Wave...there really hasn't
been an upswing to justify a 4th Wave, and things seem to be
sustaining themselves after a drop off in the late 90's.
BN
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________ NOD32 1.1179 (20050727) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent explanation
on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through high
school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which brought in
the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing, rock,
was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue that
those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads, and
even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their roots,
eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as a 'new'
form of musical expression that combined elements of different
traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and peaked,
then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen bros
movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in film
soundtrack composers libraries.
I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country before
he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and surf
employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes and
minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill tuning,
think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the wall
rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as well
as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an interesting
contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can some
aspects of Surf.
One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious versions
of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
directions.
I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world, between
the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting, because,
sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to be
incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to see if
it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature, great
accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
J
--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
wrote:
> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether
you
> define them from a musicological or time period point of view. Most
> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not
jive
> with the music's evolution or sound.
>
> First Wave: The Heyday
>
> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a
line
> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
(8.61).
> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will generally
> agree this is where it started.
>
> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
reverb,
> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there
were
> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays,
the
> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
Surfaris,
> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
>
> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
singles
> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
> sixties.
>
> Second Wave: The Revival
>
> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the
first
> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of
the
> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
beginnings
> of the third wave (more later).
>
> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
Nightriders. In
> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to
them
> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the
El
> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge,
and
> the Evasions, among others.
>
> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
>
> Third Wave: Rebirth
>
> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution,
the
> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just
as
> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco,
West
> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
space
> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the
first
> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
>
> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
wave. The
> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
Vibrabeams,
> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start
with
> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary.
The
> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think of
> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
> sounds for a significantly different sound.
>
> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
around
> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as a
> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece,
freed
> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
today's
> bands descend from.
>
> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like a
> calendar.
>
> First Wave: 1961-1965
> Second Wave: 1979-1986
> Third Wave: 1989-2000
> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
>
> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have
little
> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of
these
> periods.
>
> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
>
> Phil
>
> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and
its
> too nebula-ous of a term.
>
> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
Alright J,
Your compare and contrast of Surf and Bluegrass has some valid bits but there is
no obvious evidence of Clarence White influence in the playing of Jim Thomas. To
mention "rhythmic sequences" without supporting examples is far too ambiguous to
be meaningful.
When Clarence played bluegrass, it was full on traditional. When JT plays surf,
it is rarely traditional. Sure, when Clarence played country rock, he developed
a unique sound and style as Jim has with surf. But a unique sound and style is
common to many other guitarists and doesn't make for an obvious mapping of one
guitarist to the other. I don't know if Jim has ever sited White as an
influence, but there is no obvious evidence of it in his playing.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: carbon4logic
To:
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:26 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent explanation
on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through high
school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which brought in
the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing, rock,
was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue that
those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads, and
even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their roots,
eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as a 'new'
form of musical expression that combined elements of different
traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and peaked,
then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen bros
movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in film
soundtrack composers libraries.
I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country before
he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and surf
employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes and
minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill tuning,
think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the wall
rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as well
as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an interesting
contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can some
aspects of Surf.
One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious versions
of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
directions.
I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world, between
the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting, because,
sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to be
incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to see if
it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature, great
accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
J
--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
wrote:
> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether
you
> define them from a musicological or time period point of view. Most
> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not
jive
> with the music's evolution or sound.
>
> First Wave: The Heyday
>
> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a
line
> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
(8.61).
> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will generally
> agree this is where it started.
>
> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
reverb,
> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there
were
> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays,
the
> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
Surfaris,
> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
>
> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
singles
> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
> sixties.
>
> Second Wave: The Revival
>
> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the
first
> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of
the
> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
beginnings
> of the third wave (more later).
>
> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
Nightriders. In
> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to
them
> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the
El
> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge,
and
> the Evasions, among others.
>
> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
>
> Third Wave: Rebirth
>
> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution,
the
> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just
as
> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco,
West
> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
space
> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the
first
> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
>
> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
wave. The
> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
Vibrabeams,
> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start
with
> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary.
The
> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think of
> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
> sounds for a significantly different sound.
>
> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
around
> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as a
> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece,
freed
> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
today's
> bands descend from.
>
> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like a
> calendar.
>
> First Wave: 1961-1965
> Second Wave: 1979-1986
> Third Wave: 1989-2000
> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
>
> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have
little
> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of
these
> periods.
>
> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
>
> Phil
>
> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and
its
> too nebula-ous of a term.
>
> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________ NOD32 1.1184 (20050801) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I never said Jim Thomas was a Clarence White clone. But here is a
quote from an old article about the band:
'Jim Thomas credits the legendary surf guitarist Dale as one of his
influences, along with Clarence White...'
'Emmylou Rides Clarence West and Then South' is pretty close to the
country flatpick style of Clarence White...as for Jim's trad surf
sound, his version of Quiet Surf is not much different than
Polodars'. He's been playing songs from Endless Summer for years,
and recently, even playing Shig and Buzz tunes, which are as retro
as you can get.
As for examples of rhythmic similarity between fast paced surf
instrumentals and breakdowns, I would have thought it was obvious. I
can't get to any music resources from work, but, off the top of my
head, Shuckin the Corn by Eric Weissberg and Marshall Brickman or
the Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn by Hickory Wind vs. Cross-
Steppin by the Eliminators. I threw in the Hickory Wind tune to show
that this is a rhythimic pattern inherited from pre-bluegrass string
band breakdown forms deriving from folk fiddle traditions.
Istanbul(not Constantinople) has been covered by both Surf bands--
The Halibuts--as well as bluegrass bands.
What I am saying is that we share the same genes that perform
glycolysis with flatworms, in spite of the fact that flatworms do
not have opposable thumbs or pre-frontal lobes.
J
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Alright J,
>
> Your compare and contrast of Surf and Bluegrass has some valid
bits but there is no obvious evidence of Clarence White influence in
the playing of Jim Thomas. To mention "rhythmic sequences" without
supporting examples is far too ambiguous to be meaningful.
>
> When Clarence played bluegrass, it was full on traditional. When
JT plays surf, it is rarely traditional. Sure, when Clarence played
country rock, he developed a unique sound and style as Jim has with
surf. But a unique sound and style is common to many other
guitarists and doesn't make for an obvious mapping of one guitarist
to the other. I don't know if Jim has ever sited White as an
influence, but there is no obvious evidence of it in his playing.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: carbon4logic
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:26 AM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>
> You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent
explanation
> on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through
high
> school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
> occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
> earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which
brought in
> the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
> disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
> conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
> technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing,
rock,
> was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue
that
> those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
> the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads,
and
> even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their
roots,
> eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
>
> I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as
a 'new'
> form of musical expression that combined elements of different
> traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and
peaked,
> then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
> different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen
bros
> movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
> permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in
film
> soundtrack composers libraries.
>
> I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the
obvious
> again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in
surf
> clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country
before
> he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
> tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and
surf
> employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes
and
> minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill
tuning,
> think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
> grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the
wall
> rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
> influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
> later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as
well
> as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
>
> Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an
interesting
> contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
> ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
> ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can
some
> aspects of Surf.
>
> One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious
versions
> of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
> directions.
>
> I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world,
between
> the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting,
because,
> sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
> information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to
be
> incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to
see if
> it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature,
great
> accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
>
> J
>
>
> --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> wrote:
> > The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on
whether
> you
> > define them from a musicological or time period point of view.
Most
> > people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does
not
> jive
> > with the music's evolution or sound.
> >
> > First Wave: The Heyday
> >
> > The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to
draw a
> line
> > in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording
of "Mr.
> > Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
> (8.61).
> > Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will
generally
> > agree this is where it started.
> >
> > The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
> reverb,
> > took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical
surf
> > instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave,
there
> were
> > actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The
Chantays,
> the
> > Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
> Surfaris,
> > the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
> >
> > By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles
and
> > sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences,
again
> > changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand.
The
> > first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
> singles
> > and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of
the
> > sixties.
> >
> > Second Wave: The Revival
> >
> > The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of
the
> first
> > wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a
reliving of
> the
> > past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
> beginnings
> > of the third wave (more later).
> >
> > The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
> Nightriders. In
> > '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep.
Contemporary to
> them
> > ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders,
the
> El
> > Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the
Wedge,
> and
> > the Evasions, among others.
> >
> > This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
> >
> > Third Wave: Rebirth
> >
> > Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant
evolution,
> the
> > sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas.
Just
> as
> > the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican,
Flamenco,
> West
> > Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
> space
> > themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over
the
> first
> > few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
> >
> > Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
> wave. The
> > Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into
their
> > sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn
with
> > non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
> Vibrabeams,
> > Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the
start
> with
> > rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and
commentary.
> The
> > Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I
think of
> > them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with
traditional
> > sounds for a significantly different sound.
> >
> > The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
> around
> > 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf
as a
> > platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad
wars.
> > Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras,
the
> > Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence,
eventually
> > hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum
piece,
> freed
> > to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
> today's
> > bands descend from.
> >
> > From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more
like a
> > calendar.
> >
> > First Wave: 1961-1965
> > Second Wave: 1979-1986
> > Third Wave: 1989-2000
> > Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
> >
> > The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands
have
> little
> > in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any
of
> these
> > periods.
> >
> > That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> > Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music,
and a
> > representational act or album for each? I've tried searching
and
> its
> > too nebula-ous of a term.
> >
> > What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1184 (20050801) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
>relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
>again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
>clearly came out of country music
Nice post, Carb. Interesting perspectives. I also like to at least
compare and see the influences evolve and how the genres relate over
time. My personal view is that musically, Hillbilly/Rockabilly, sits
between Surf and Bluegrass, and Deke kinda sits between both of those
;-) So to me, you don't get from one to the other directly. There are
correlations and comparisons to be made between Surf and Bluegrass, like
picking techniques and minor key focuses, true.
Bay Area folks may remember a now-defunct band from San Francisco in the
late 80s/early 90s called The Movie Stars, (featuring Jill Olson on
upright bass, now of the band, Red Meat) who experimented in a merge of
Surf and Honky Tonk Bluegrass, more like trying to infuse Ventures
stylings and carefully applied reverb to Bluegrass. When I saw this
LIVE, I was like, wow, certainly not Surf, but this is totally
innovative! They put out one quite rare vinyl album. Haven't heard
anyone do things like that since.
A Bay Area bluegrass fave of mine is the Hot Buttered Rum String Band.
All fantastic players and their "jams" are blinding with rhythm and
accuracy. Check 'em out.
bIG wAvE Dave Becker
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
[mailto:]
>On Behalf Of carbon4logic
>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:27 AM
>To:
>Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent explanation
>on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through high
>school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
>occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
>earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which brought in
>the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
>disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
>conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
>technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing, rock,
>was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue that
>those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
>the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads, and
>even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their roots,
>eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
>
>I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as a 'new'
>form of musical expression that combined elements of different
>traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and peaked,
>then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
>different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen bros
>movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
>permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in film
>soundtrack composers libraries.
>
>I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
>relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
>again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
>clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country before
>he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
>tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and surf
>employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes and
>minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill tuning,
>think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
>grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the wall
>rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
>influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
>later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as well
>as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
>
>Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an interesting
>contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
>ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
>ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can some
>aspects of Surf.
>
>One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious versions
>of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
>directions.
>
>I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world, between
>the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting, because,
>sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
>information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to be
>incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to see if
>it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature, great
>accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
>
>J
>
>
>--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
>wrote:
>> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether
>you
>> define them from a musicological or time period point of view. Most
>> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not
>jive
>> with the music's evolution or sound.
>>
>> First Wave: The Heyday
>>
>> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a
>line
>> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
>> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
>(8.61).
>> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will generally
>> agree this is where it started.
>>
>> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
>reverb,
>> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
>> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there
>were
>> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays,
>the
>> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
>Surfaris,
>> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
>>
>> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
>> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
>> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
>> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
>singles
>> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
>> sixties.
>>
>> Second Wave: The Revival
>>
>> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the
>first
>> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of
>the
>> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
>beginnings
>> of the third wave (more later).
>>
>> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
>Nightriders. In
>> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to
>them
>> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the
>El
>> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge,
>and
>> the Evasions, among others.
>>
>> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
>>
>> Third Wave: Rebirth
>>
>> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution,
>the
>> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just
>as
>> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco,
>West
>> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
>space
>> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the
>first
>> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
>>
>> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
>wave. The
>> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
>> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
>> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
>Vibrabeams,
>> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start
>with
>> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary.
>The
>> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think of
>> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
>> sounds for a significantly different sound.
>>
>> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
>around
>> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as a
>> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
>> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
>> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
>> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece,
>freed
>> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
>today's
>> bands descend from.
>>
>> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like a
>> calendar.
>>
>> First Wave: 1961-1965
>> Second Wave: 1979-1986
>> Third Wave: 1989-2000
>> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
>>
>> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have
>little
>> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of
>these
>> periods.
>>
>> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
>> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
>> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and
>its
>> too nebula-ous of a term.
>>
>> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
><font face=arial size=-1><a
>href="
2218
>3/D=grplch/S=1705032047:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1122913632/A=2894366/R=0/SIG=138
c78j
>l6/*
gn=G
>RP&RTP=">What would our lives be like without
>music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at
Network
>for Good</a>.</font>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>.
>Visit for archived
messages,
>bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
I never said that you said JT was a CW clone. I said that the
Clarence White influence is not obvious in JT's playing and that your
mention of "rhythmic patterns" was too ambiguous to be meaningful.
I'm happy to see that you now offer a specific example. I'll have to
hear that "Emmylou Rides..." track.
As I stated, JT rarely plays trad. This is not to say he never plays
trad. You mention one example and I have seen him perform other trad
examples.
-Marty
--- In , "carbon4logic"
<carbon4logic@y...> wrote:
> I never said Jim Thomas was a Clarence White clone. But here is a
> quote from an old article about the band:
>
> 'Jim Thomas credits the legendary surf guitarist Dale as one of his
> influences, along with Clarence White...'
>
>
>
> 'Emmylou Rides Clarence West and Then South' is pretty close to the
> country flatpick style of Clarence White...as for Jim's trad surf
> sound, his version of Quiet Surf is not much different than
> Polodars'. He's been playing songs from Endless Summer for years,
> and recently, even playing Shig and Buzz tunes, which are as retro
> as you can get.
>
> As for examples of rhythmic similarity between fast paced surf
> instrumentals and breakdowns, I would have thought it was obvious.
I
> can't get to any music resources from work, but, off the top of my
> head, Shuckin the Corn by Eric Weissberg and Marshall Brickman or
> the Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn by Hickory Wind vs. Cross-
> Steppin by the Eliminators. I threw in the Hickory Wind tune to
show
> that this is a rhythimic pattern inherited from pre-bluegrass
string
> band breakdown forms deriving from folk fiddle traditions.
>
> Istanbul(not Constantinople) has been covered by both Surf bands--
> The Halibuts--as well as bluegrass bands.
>
> What I am saying is that we share the same genes that perform
> glycolysis with flatworms, in spite of the fact that flatworms do
> not have opposable thumbs or pre-frontal lobes.
>
> J
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "Marty Tippens"
> <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > Alright J,
> >
> > Your compare and contrast of Surf and Bluegrass has some valid
> bits but there is no obvious evidence of Clarence White influence
in
> the playing of Jim Thomas. To mention "rhythmic sequences" without
> supporting examples is far too ambiguous to be meaningful.
> >
> > When Clarence played bluegrass, it was full on traditional. When
> JT plays surf, it is rarely traditional. Sure, when Clarence played
> country rock, he developed a unique sound and style as Jim has with
> surf. But a unique sound and style is common to many other
> guitarists and doesn't make for an obvious mapping of one
guitarist
> to the other. I don't know if Jim has ever sited White as an
> influence, but there is no obvious evidence of it in his playing.
> >
> > -Marty
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: carbon4logic
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:26 AM
> > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
> >
> >
> > You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent
> explanation
> > on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through
> high
> > school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
> > occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
> > earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which
> brought in
> > the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
> > disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
> > conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
> > technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing,
> rock,
> > was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue
> that
> > those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
> > the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate
threads,
> and
> > even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their
> roots,
> > eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
> >
> > I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as
> a 'new'
> > form of musical expression that combined elements of different
> > traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and
> peaked,
> > then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
> > different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen
> bros
> > movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
> > permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in
> film
> > soundtrack composers libraries.
> >
> > I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> > relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the
> obvious
> > again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in
> surf
> > clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country
> before
> > he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
> > tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and
> surf
> > employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes
> and
> > minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill
> tuning,
> > think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or
shady
> > grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the
> wall
> > rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
> > influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky
Gentlemen,
> > later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as
> well
> > as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
> >
> > Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an
> interesting
> > contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
> > ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
> > ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can
> some
> > aspects of Surf.
> >
> > One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious
> versions
> > of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
> > directions.
> >
> > I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world,
> between
> > the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting,
> because,
> > sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
> > information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to
> be
> > incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to
> see if
> > it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature,
> great
> > accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> > --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> > wrote:
> > > The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on
> whether
> > you
> > > define them from a musicological or time period point of
view.
> Most
> > > people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that
does
> not
> > jive
> > > with the music's evolution or sound.
> > >
> > > First Wave: The Heyday
> > >
> > > The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to
> draw a
> > line
> > > in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording
> of "Mr.
> > > Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
> > (8.61).
> > > Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will
> generally
> > > agree this is where it started.
> > >
> > > The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
> > reverb,
> > > took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical
> surf
> > > instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave,
> there
> > were
> > > actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The
> Chantays,
> > the
> > > Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
> > Surfaris,
> > > the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
> > >
> > > By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod
titles
> and
> > > sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences,
> again
> > > changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at
hand.
> The
> > > first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few
odd
> > singles
> > > and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of
> the
> > > sixties.
> > >
> > > Second Wave: The Revival
> > >
> > > The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of
> the
> > first
> > > wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a
> reliving of
> > the
> > > past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
> > beginnings
> > > of the third wave (more later).
> > >
> > > The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
> > Nightriders. In
> > > '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep.
> Contemporary to
> > them
> > > ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders,
> the
> > El
> > > Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the
> Wedge,
> > and
> > > the Evasions, among others.
> > >
> > > This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
> > >
> > > Third Wave: Rebirth
> > >
> > > Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant
> evolution,
> > the
> > > sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas.
> Just
> > as
> > > the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican,
> Flamenco,
> > West
> > > Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound
effects,
> > space
> > > themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over
> the
> > first
> > > few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
> > >
> > > Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
> > wave. The
> > > Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into
> their
> > > sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn
> with
> > > non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
> > Vibrabeams,
> > > Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the
> start
> > with
> > > rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and
> commentary.
> > The
> > > Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I
> think of
> > > them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with
> traditional
> > > sounds for a significantly different sound.
> > >
> > > The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
> > around
> > > 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used
surf
> as a
> > > platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad
> wars.
> > > Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras,
> the
> > > Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence,
> eventually
> > > hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum
> piece,
> > freed
> > > to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
> > today's
> > > bands descend from.
> > >
> > > From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more
> like a
> > > calendar.
> > >
> > > First Wave: 1961-1965
> > > Second Wave: 1979-1986
> > > Third Wave: 1989-2000
> > > Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
> > >
> > > The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands
> have
> > little
> > > in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any
> of
> > these
> > > periods.
> > >
> > > That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
> > >
> > > Phil
> > >
> > > --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> > > Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music,
> and a
> > > representational act or album for each? I've tried searching
> and
> > its
> > > too nebula-ous of a term.
> > >
> > > What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> -----------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> -----------
> >
> >
> >
> > __________ NOD32 1.1184 (20050801) Information __________
> >
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carbon14 wrote: "...in spite of the fact that flatworms do
not have opposable thumbs or pre-frontal lobes..."
...so, the bluegrass dudes are the flatworms, right?
('cause i think I still have an old piece of pre-frontal
left up there in the old cranial cavity...)
-dp
ps: there were two GREAT "surf band names in this email, if
you noticed...
The Flatworms
The Opposable Thumbs
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
I attempted a more direct bluegrass / surf marriage featuring a Tele-banjo
earlier this year on the Surfguitar101 comp that can be heard by clicking
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Becker
To:
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
>relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
>again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
>clearly came out of country music
Nice post, Carb. Interesting perspectives. I also like to at least
compare and see the influences evolve and how the genres relate over
time. My personal view is that musically, Hillbilly/Rockabilly, sits
between Surf and Bluegrass, and Deke kinda sits between both of those
;-) So to me, you don't get from one to the other directly. There are
correlations and comparisons to be made between Surf and Bluegrass, like
picking techniques and minor key focuses, true.
Bay Area folks may remember a now-defunct band from San Francisco in the
late 80s/early 90s called The Movie Stars, (featuring Jill Olson on
upright bass, now of the band, Red Meat) who experimented in a merge of
Surf and Honky Tonk Bluegrass, more like trying to infuse Ventures
stylings and carefully applied reverb to Bluegrass. When I saw this
LIVE, I was like, wow, certainly not Surf, but this is totally
innovative! They put out one quite rare vinyl album. Haven't heard
anyone do things like that since.
A Bay Area bluegrass fave of mine is the Hot Buttered Rum String Band.
All fantastic players and their "jams" are blinding with rhythm and
accuracy. Check 'em out.
bIG wAvE Dave Becker
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
[mailto:]
>On Behalf Of carbon4logic
>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:27 AM
>To:
>Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent explanation
>on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through high
>school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
>occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
>earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which brought in
>the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
>disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
>conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
>technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing, rock,
>was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue that
>those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
>the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads, and
>even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their roots,
>eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
>
>I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as a 'new'
>form of musical expression that combined elements of different
>traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and peaked,
>then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
>different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen bros
>movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
>permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in film
>soundtrack composers libraries.
>
>I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
>relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
>again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
>clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country before
>he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
>tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and surf
>employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes and
>minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill tuning,
>think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
>grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the wall
>rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
>influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
>later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as well
>as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
>
>Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an interesting
>contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
>ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
>ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can some
>aspects of Surf.
>
>One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious versions
>of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
>directions.
>
>I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world, between
>the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting, because,
>sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
>information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to be
>incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to see if
>it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature, great
>accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
>
>J
>
>
>--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
>wrote:
>> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether
>you
>> define them from a musicological or time period point of view. Most
>> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not
>jive
>> with the music's evolution or sound.
>>
>> First Wave: The Heyday
>>
>> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a
>line
>> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
>> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
>(8.61).
>> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will generally
>> agree this is where it started.
>>
>> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
>reverb,
>> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
>> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there
>were
>> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays,
>the
>> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
>Surfaris,
>> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
>>
>> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
>> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
>> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
>> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
>singles
>> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
>> sixties.
>>
>> Second Wave: The Revival
>>
>> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the
>first
>> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of
>the
>> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
>beginnings
>> of the third wave (more later).
>>
>> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
>Nightriders. In
>> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to
>them
>> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the
>El
>> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge,
>and
>> the Evasions, among others.
>>
>> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
>>
>> Third Wave: Rebirth
>>
>> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution,
>the
>> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just
>as
>> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco,
>West
>> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
>space
>> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the
>first
>> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
>>
>> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
>wave. The
>> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
>> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
>> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
>Vibrabeams,
>> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start
>with
>> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary.
>The
>> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think of
>> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
>> sounds for a significantly different sound.
>>
>> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
>around
>> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as a
>> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
>> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
>> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
>> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece,
>freed
>> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
>today's
>> bands descend from.
>>
>> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like a
>> calendar.
>>
>> First Wave: 1961-1965
>> Second Wave: 1979-1986
>> Third Wave: 1989-2000
>> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
>>
>> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have
>little
>> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of
>these
>> periods.
>>
>> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
>> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
>> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and
>its
>> too nebula-ous of a term.
>>
>> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
><font face=arial size=-1><a
>href="
2218
>3/D=grplch/S=1705032047:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1122913632/A=2894366/R=0/SIG=138
c78j
>l6/*
gn=G
>RP&RTP=">What would our lives be like without
>music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at
Network
>for Good</a>.</font>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>.
>Visit for archived
messages,
>bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________ NOD32 1.1184 (20050801) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicely done! Marty, I admire anyone who makes these types of attempts.
Sounds like a lot of TexMexWestern flair but merges a Bluegrass feel
with the banjo.
It's these kinda experiments where cool new creative stuff is born.
Pretty unique, I'd say.
BW Dave
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
[mailto:]
>On Behalf Of Marty Tippens
>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:21 PM
>To:
>Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>I attempted a more direct bluegrass / surf marriage featuring a
Tele-banjo
>earlier this year on the Surfguitar101 comp that can be heard by
clicking
>
>Marty_Tippens.mp3
>
>-Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dave Becker
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>
>
> >I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> >relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
> >again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
> >clearly came out of country music
>
> Nice post, Carb. Interesting perspectives. I also like to at least
> compare and see the influences evolve and how the genres relate over
> time. My personal view is that musically, Hillbilly/Rockabilly, sits
> between Surf and Bluegrass, and Deke kinda sits between both of those
> ;-) So to me, you don't get from one to the other directly. There are
> correlations and comparisons to be made between Surf and Bluegrass,
like
> picking techniques and minor key focuses, true.
>
> Bay Area folks may remember a now-defunct band from San Francisco in
the
> late 80s/early 90s called The Movie Stars, (featuring Jill Olson on
> upright bass, now of the band, Red Meat) who experimented in a merge
of
> Surf and Honky Tonk Bluegrass, more like trying to infuse Ventures
> stylings and carefully applied reverb to Bluegrass. When I saw this
> LIVE, I was like, wow, certainly not Surf, but this is totally
> innovative! They put out one quite rare vinyl album. Haven't heard
> anyone do things like that since.
>
> A Bay Area bluegrass fave of mine is the Hot Buttered Rum String
Band.
> All fantastic players and their "jams" are blinding with rhythm and
> accuracy. Check 'em out.
>
> bIG wAvE Dave Becker
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:
> [mailto:]
> >On Behalf Of carbon4logic
> >Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:27 AM
> >To:
> >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
> >
> >You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent explanation
> >on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through high
> >school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
> >occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
> >earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which brought in
> >the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
> >disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
> >conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
> >technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing, rock,
> >was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue that
> >those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
> >the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads, and
> >even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their roots,
> >eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
> >
> >I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as a 'new'
> >form of musical expression that combined elements of different
> >traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and peaked,
> >then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
> >different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen bros
> >movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
> >permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in film
> >soundtrack composers libraries.
> >
> >I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> >relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
> >again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
> >clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country before
> >he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
> >tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and surf
> >employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes and
> >minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill tuning,
> >think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
> >grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the wall
> >rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
> >influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
> >later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as well
> >as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
> >
> >Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an interesting
> >contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
> >ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
> >ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can some
> >aspects of Surf.
> >
> >One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious versions
> >of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
> >directions.
> >
> >I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world, between
> >the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting, because,
> >sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
> >information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to be
> >incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to see if
> >it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature, great
> >accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
> >
> >J
> >
> >
> >--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> >wrote:
> >> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether
> >you
> >> define them from a musicological or time period point of view.
Most
> >> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not
> >jive
> >> with the music's evolution or sound.
> >>
> >> First Wave: The Heyday
> >>
> >> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a
> >line
> >> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
> >> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
> >(8.61).
> >> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will
generally
> >> agree this is where it started.
> >>
> >> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
> >reverb,
> >> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
> >> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there
> >were
> >> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays,
> >the
> >> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
> >Surfaris,
> >> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
> >>
> >> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
> >> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
> >> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
> >> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
> >singles
> >> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
> >> sixties.
> >>
> >> Second Wave: The Revival
> >>
> >> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the
> >first
> >> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of
> >the
> >> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
> >beginnings
> >> of the third wave (more later).
> >>
> >> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
> >Nightriders. In
> >> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to
> >them
> >> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the
> >El
> >> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge,
> >and
> >> the Evasions, among others.
> >>
> >> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
> >>
> >> Third Wave: Rebirth
> >>
> >> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution,
> >the
> >> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just
> >as
> >> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco,
> >West
> >> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
> >space
> >> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the
> >first
> >> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
> >>
> >> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
> >wave. The
> >> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
> >> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
> >> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
> >Vibrabeams,
> >> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start
> >with
> >> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary.
> >The
> >> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think
of
> >> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
> >> sounds for a significantly different sound.
> >>
> >> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
> >around
> >> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as
a
> >> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
> >> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
> >> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
> >> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece,
> >freed
> >> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
> >today's
> >> bands descend from.
> >>
> >> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like
a
> >> calendar.
> >>
> >> First Wave: 1961-1965
> >> Second Wave: 1979-1986
> >> Third Wave: 1989-2000
> >> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
> >>
> >> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have
> >little
> >> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of
> >these
> >> periods.
> >>
> >> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> >> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
> >> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and
> >its
> >> too nebula-ous of a term.
> >>
> >> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
> ><font face=arial size=-1><a
>
>href="
> 2218
>
>3/D=grplch/S=1705032047:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1122913632/A=2894366/R=0/SIG=138
> c78j
>
>l6/*
> gn=G
> >RP&RTP=">What would our lives be like
without
> >music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at
> Network
> >for Good</a>.</font>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
> >
> >.
> >Visit for archived
> messages,
> >bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages,
>bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>---
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service.
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>---
>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1184 (20050801) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
><font face=arial size=-1><a
>href="
2218
>3/D=grplch/S=1705032047:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1122945643/A=2894366/R=0/SIG=138
c78j
>l6/*
gn=G
>RP&RTP=">What would our lives be like without
>music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at
Network
>for Good</a>.</font>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>.
>Visit for archived
messages,
>bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Thanks BW Dave. Yes, I also appreciate those surf bands that try different
things. The Ultra's, in particular, had some great country twang influence on
their CD.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Becker
To:
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 6:12 PM
Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
Nicely done! Marty, I admire anyone who makes these types of attempts.
Sounds like a lot of TexMexWestern flair but merges a Bluegrass feel
with the banjo.
It's these kinda experiments where cool new creative stuff is born.
Pretty unique, I'd say.
BW Dave
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
[mailto:]
>On Behalf Of Marty Tippens
>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:21 PM
>To:
>Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>I attempted a more direct bluegrass / surf marriage featuring a
Tele-banjo
>earlier this year on the Surfguitar101 comp that can be heard by
clicking
>
>Marty_Tippens.mp3
>
>-Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dave Becker
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>
>
> >I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> >relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
> >again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
> >clearly came out of country music
>
> Nice post, Carb. Interesting perspectives. I also like to at least
> compare and see the influences evolve and how the genres relate over
> time. My personal view is that musically, Hillbilly/Rockabilly, sits
> between Surf and Bluegrass, and Deke kinda sits between both of those
> ;-) So to me, you don't get from one to the other directly. There are
> correlations and comparisons to be made between Surf and Bluegrass,
like
> picking techniques and minor key focuses, true.
>
> Bay Area folks may remember a now-defunct band from San Francisco in
the
> late 80s/early 90s called The Movie Stars, (featuring Jill Olson on
> upright bass, now of the band, Red Meat) who experimented in a merge
of
> Surf and Honky Tonk Bluegrass, more like trying to infuse Ventures
> stylings and carefully applied reverb to Bluegrass. When I saw this
> LIVE, I was like, wow, certainly not Surf, but this is totally
> innovative! They put out one quite rare vinyl album. Haven't heard
> anyone do things like that since.
>
> A Bay Area bluegrass fave of mine is the Hot Buttered Rum String
Band.
> All fantastic players and their "jams" are blinding with rhythm and
> accuracy. Check 'em out.
>
> bIG wAvE Dave Becker
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:
> [mailto:]
> >On Behalf Of carbon4logic
> >Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:27 AM
> >To:
> >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
> >
> >You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent explanation
> >on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through high
> >school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
> >occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
> >earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which brought in
> >the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
> >disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
> >conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
> >technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing, rock,
> >was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue that
> >those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
> >the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads, and
> >even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their roots,
> >eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
> >
> >I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as a 'new'
> >form of musical expression that combined elements of different
> >traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and peaked,
> >then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
> >different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen bros
> >movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
> >permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in film
> >soundtrack composers libraries.
> >
> >I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> >relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
> >again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
> >clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country before
> >he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
> >tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and surf
> >employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes and
> >minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill tuning,
> >think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
> >grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the wall
> >rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
> >influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
> >later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as well
> >as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
> >
> >Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an interesting
> >contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
> >ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
> >ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can some
> >aspects of Surf.
> >
> >One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious versions
> >of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
> >directions.
> >
> >I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world, between
> >the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting, because,
> >sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
> >information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to be
> >incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to see if
> >it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature, great
> >accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
> >
> >J
> >
> >
> >--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> >wrote:
> >> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether
> >you
> >> define them from a musicological or time period point of view.
Most
> >> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not
> >jive
> >> with the music's evolution or sound.
> >>
> >> First Wave: The Heyday
> >>
> >> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a
> >line
> >> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
> >> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
> >(8.61).
> >> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will
generally
> >> agree this is where it started.
> >>
> >> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
> >reverb,
> >> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
> >> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there
> >were
> >> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays,
> >the
> >> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
> >Surfaris,
> >> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
> >>
> >> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
> >> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
> >> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
> >> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
> >singles
> >> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
> >> sixties.
> >>
> >> Second Wave: The Revival
> >>
> >> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the
> >first
> >> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of
> >the
> >> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
> >beginnings
> >> of the third wave (more later).
> >>
> >> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
> >Nightriders. In
> >> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to
> >them
> >> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the
> >El
> >> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge,
> >and
> >> the Evasions, among others.
> >>
> >> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
> >>
> >> Third Wave: Rebirth
> >>
> >> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution,
> >the
> >> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just
> >as
> >> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco,
> >West
> >> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
> >space
> >> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the
> >first
> >> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
> >>
> >> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
> >wave. The
> >> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
> >> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
> >> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
> >Vibrabeams,
> >> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start
> >with
> >> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary.
> >The
> >> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think
of
> >> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
> >> sounds for a significantly different sound.
> >>
> >> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
> >around
> >> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as
a
> >> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
> >> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
> >> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
> >> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece,
> >freed
> >> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
> >today's
> >> bands descend from.
> >>
> >> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like
a
> >> calendar.
> >>
> >> First Wave: 1961-1965
> >> Second Wave: 1979-1986
> >> Third Wave: 1989-2000
> >> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
> >>
> >> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have
> >little
> >> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of
> >these
> >> periods.
> >>
> >> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> >> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
> >> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and
> >its
> >> too nebula-ous of a term.
> >>
> >> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
> ><font face=arial size=-1><a
>
>href="
> 2218
>
>3/D=grplch/S=1705032047:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1122913632/A=2894366/R=0/SIG=138
> c78j
>
>l6/*
> gn=G
> >RP&RTP=">What would our lives be like
without
> >music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at
> Network
> >for Good</a>.</font>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
> >
> >.
> >Visit for archived
> messages,
> >bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages,
>bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>---
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service.
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>---
>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.1184 (20050801) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
><font face=arial size=-1><a
>href="
2218
>3/D=grplch/S=1705032047:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1122945643/A=2894366/R=0/SIG=138
c78j
>l6/*
gn=G
>RP&RTP=">What would our lives be like without
>music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at
Network
>for Good</a>.</font>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>.
>Visit for archived
messages,
>bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________ NOD32 1.1184 (20050801) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jim plays traditional surf all the time. There are mnay songs that come
and go in Mermen sets, and the Shi-tones are virtually all trad
material.
Adventures In Paradise
Bikini Drag
Bumble Bee
Casbah
Crash
Drifting
El Aguila
Endless Summer
Latin'ia
Lonely Playboy
Lonely Surfer
Miserlou
Movin'
Mr. Moto
Penetration
Pipeline
Quiet Surf
Six Pack
Surf Party
Surf Rider
Tequila
The Victor
Apache
Caravan
FBI
Ghost Riders in the Sky
Hawaii Five-0
Jet Black
Shooting Star
Sukiyaki
Vamp Camp
Walk, Don't Run
There's more...
Phil
--- mctippens <> wrote:
As I stated, JT rarely plays trad. This is not to say he never plays
trad. You mention one example and I have seen him perform other trad
examples.
Most directly linked: Buzzy Frets and his Surfabilly Orchestra!
--- Marty Tippens <> wrote:
I attempted a more direct bluegrass / surf marriage
Well, then there's also the Serfs, which sort of reminds me of 3
Mustaphas 3 without the Absinthe. But it was more the aspect of how the
bluegrass form keeps getting 'rediscovered', that fans would not let it
die, that prompted this whole riff. That both forms keep getting
revived, and hybridized, then back to roots, then hybridized in some
weird endless cycle of reincarnation.
I wasn't proposing a shotgun wedding between 5-string banjo and a
reverb tank(Do you, banjo take this here reverb...)--and while I think
a double picked mandolin fits in better with this odd relationship than
3 fingered banjo rolls, I am in favor of any kind of experiments that
leads to something that sounds good. Isn't that how Dick Dale came to
play Miserlou in the first place? As an experiment and a response to a
challenge? Can you play a song on just one string?
On New Dimensions in Bluegrass and Banjo, the pioneering 1963 LP by
studio musician Eric Weissberg and Marshall Brickman (who later went on
to write screenplays such as Annie Hall), backed by none other than
Clarence White, there is a song called 'Riding the Waves', which, aside
from its evocative title, has nothing reminiscient about surf guitar.
There have been a LOT of Bluegrass and String bands and hybrids in the
past 60 years, some of them are pretty well known, some are not. Unless
you have really deeply delved into the culture, away from the more
commercial crap, you may not have heard a lot of the instrumental music
from lesser known groups or players. Some of that stuff, like
breakdowns done in a minor mode, start to sound like Indian Ragas, they
start to get into the same sort of middle eastern gypsy sounding space
that you hear with tunes like Latinia, or the Wedge, or Casbah.
In fact, John Fahey may have been one of the first to recognize this
connection(and record it way back in the late 50's in his bedroom)
between the folk music breakdown form, and the Indian Raga, and begin
to experiment with blues/Indian hybridization--some of those
experimentations, if slowed down, could be adapted into an interesting
surf melody: Night Train to Valhalla, leaps to mind. (He also
introduced the ideas of Charles Ives into folk music long before Lesh
and Garcia did it!) And maybe that is the thing about Jim Thomas, he's
kind of a Charles Ives, Coltrane, Szabo confluence. Can Surf music
stand the strain of alien genes retro-viruses into its DNA without
turning cancerous? Bound to produce some freaky monstrous mutations.
For years we have been taking old time fiddle tunes such as The
Swinging Gate, or Paddy on the Turnpike, or the Musical Priest, or the
Wind that Shakes the Barley, or Fire on the Mountain, and slowing them
waay down, introducing glissandos and a surf beat. Hell the Penetrators
did that song 'The Wind Beneath my Kilt'. There are a lot of Celtic
fiddle tunes that can be cannibalized in this way--and alot of these
are the basis for bluegrass. There was a group back in the 80's called
Rare Air that turned Scottish tunes(if it's not Scottish, its crap!)
into Space Rock numbers, replete with electric bagpipes, that was not
too far from the Penetrators version of 'the Wind'. I always thought
that it might be cool to replace the saxophone in a surf band with a
set of bagpipes--piped through a reverb chamber, of course.
I'm just saying that if you got a fertile swamp filled with all kinds
of exotic orchids, the bees are going to be going back and forth cross-
pollinating and causing strange hybrids, some of which might not be
worth noticing, but some of which might be quite astonishing. And
the 'astonishing part', isn't that what it's all about? I know I like
to be astonished when I go to hear someone play. I love it when I have
to hold my jaw up to keep it off the floor.
J
--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...> wrote:
> Most directly linked: Buzzy Frets and his Surfabilly Orchestra!
>
> --- Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> I attempted a more direct bluegrass / surf marriage
Sounds interesting, Phil,
I hadn't heard of Buzzy Frets. Do they really have a bluegrass/surf sound? I'm
looking at your reviews and you describe them has having country and jazz
influences but I don't see any mention of bluegrass and I don't see any typical
bluegrass instrumentation listed (not that it has to be).
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Dirt
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
Most directly linked: Buzzy Frets and his Surfabilly Orchestra!
--- Marty Tippens <> wrote:
I attempted a more direct bluegrass / surf marriage featuring a
Tele-banjo earlier this year on the Surfguitar101 comp that can be heard by
clicking
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________ NOD32 1.1185 (20050801) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I stand corrected. I haven't heard the Shi-tones.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Dirt
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
Jim plays traditional surf all the time. There are mnay songs that come
and go in Mermen sets, and the Shi-tones are virtually all trad
material.
Adventures In Paradise
Bikini Drag
Bumble Bee
Casbah
Crash
Drifting
El Aguila
Endless Summer
Latin'ia
Lonely Playboy
Lonely Surfer
Miserlou
Movin'
Mr. Moto
Penetration
Pipeline
Quiet Surf
Six Pack
Surf Party
Surf Rider
Tequila
The Victor
Apache
Caravan
FBI
Ghost Riders in the Sky
Hawaii Five-0
Jet Black
Shooting Star
Sukiyaki
Vamp Camp
Walk, Don't Run
There's more...
Phil
--- mctippens <> wrote:
As I stated, JT rarely plays trad. This is not to say he never plays
trad. You mention one example and I have seen him perform other trad
examples.
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________ NOD32 1.1185 (20050801) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
