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I think all of us are getting a bit fed up with all this, as Shawn
did. I think Shawn's heart was in the right place with this post,
and let me just try to add a few things to it.
--- In , "Shawn Martin"
<drumuitar@y...> wrote:
> Bruce does have a lot of experience with surf guitar, gear, and
the
> like. I think part of the problem he's had is not being totally
hip
> to web-speak and he sometimes takes offense to things that aren't
> necessarily meant to be negative. Maybe he does talk about his
> experience a lot and maybe it can be annoying but as the saying
goes,
> it ain't bragging if you can do it.
I don't know Bruce nor do I know Bruce's band. When I first found
out about his band, I was intrigued and wanted to hear them. Over
the last few months, that feeling has diminished due to his posts.
In many ways, Bruce does seem like a nice man that wants to help.
He also does not seem to be somebody that's just trying to flame
people. But he has stirred the pot more than a few times exactly
because he has taken offense to things that aren't meant to be
offensive, and has in turn very quickly gone on the offensive
himself. And we've seen he's pretty good at going on the
offensive! At the same time, I believe that everybody on this list
by now has heard many, MANY times how Phil Dirt thought that Bruce's
guitar tone on the Longboard Ranch was very authentic and great,
etc. I have been increasingly getting a sense that his
participation on this list has as much to do with self-promotion as
being a part of the discussions, learning and sharing his knowledge
with the others. I very much hope that this is not the case, and I
would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I also
understand how some members of the list are starting to react
negatively to his posts in general. I believe Bruce could help the
situation by just posting his opinion without elevating himself all
the time (it's no problem sometime, we all do it), and by chilling
out a bit before going on the offensive. (And BTW, believe me, I'm
aware that many of us here want to promote our bands and projects,
and in fact, most of us appreciate that info, but at some point it
just becomes too much.)
> On the other side, Bill is talking nearly the same way Bruce is,
> without the experience under his belt. A certain amount of
cockiness
> is sort of a prerequisite for musicians, especially when you're
> younger. That being said, Bill is narrow minded about surf (which
he
> knows) and a bunch of us have tried to get him to listen to other
> stuff, but he isn't interested. That's fine for him and hopefully
> he'll broaden his horizons a little as time goes on. I've played
> drums for 20+ years and have been been an on and off guitar player
for
> 15 or so. The most important thing I know is if you want to get
> anywhere as a musician, you have to be open to everything, even
music
> you don't like. You can learn a lot from music you wouldn't just
sit
> around and listen to. You also have to keep your ego in check.
I've clearly also had my differences with Bill, and we've discussed
them off-list. But I would like to defend Bill, at least somewhat.
First, I don't think he should get the blame for all this bickering,
cause in fact he joined in it quite late today. Second, I really
doubt that Bill is interested in getting anywhere as a 'musician'.
I think he simply loves playing the music that he loves, which to
some of us may seem pretty narrow. But I see his point - he knows
what he likes and what he doesn't like, and doesn't want to waste
his time on stuff he doesn't like. I personally think he's missing
out on some great stuff, but what the hell - it's all so
subjective. I think all of us know that when it comes to 'purist'
traditionalists, Bill (and Klas) are holding down that ground. And
you know what? That's just fine by me. I think it's important to
have people like that around to keep reminding us of the
foundations. And I know that Bill is 100% committed to this genre,
and loves it deeply. I don't think his comments about Bruce were
caused by Bill's narrowmindedness, but rather by his frustration
with Bruce's own certainty in espousing some controversial views and
aggressiveness in his responses to the challenges of those views.
And yes, Bill is arrogant - I believe there are more than a few of
us around here with a very strong ego. But having recently got the
Reluctant Aquanauts debut CD, I can say that I think the guy
definitely does have the chops and the talent to back that ego. So,
let's cut him a break.
> Although Ivan is only about a
> year older than me, he's one of my guitar "heroes" and I can't even
> fathom having a conversation with him where I took the attitude
that
> Bill does with Bruce...or Ivan and others on occasion. Maybe it's
a
> generational thing but I have a lot more respect for people, even
when
> I don't agree with them.
Thank you VERY much, Shawn, for your very kind words. I appreciate
it greatly, though I'm honestly at a loss for words how to respond
to it. I'm honored. Especially as I know you're a fine and
imaginative musician, as well as a wonderful guy, yourself. As far
as the respect part, I certainly agree that it would be very well
and good for all of us to treat each other with respect. But I also
believe that we must work to earn our respect in our posts, and one
part of that is knowing when to turn-off the self-promotion push.
(Believe me, I've learned that the hard way!)
[I suspect this post may get me in some or even a lot of trouble. I
hope that doesn't happen... If it does, I'll just say that I meant
well.]
Ivan
The only self-promotion I've used any of the discussion groups for, has been to
announce our gigs, in which I know, many other bands in these groups do so also.
I'm truly sorry if my passion in trying to share some of my best discoveries
with younger musicians, to help them along, (and to help them to avoid some of
the mistakes and pitfalls that I had to learn from) has struck others as being a
negative. That was most definitely NOT my intention.
Like Bill and others, I do get frustrated when people seem to deliberately
extract the most contrary possible meaning from something I said, thinking I was
among kindred spirits!
Why did I bring Phil Dirt and others into the discussion. Frankly, I shouldn't
have dignified a punkish response in the first place, by doing so, but again, I
gave benefit of doubt that I was dealing with a fellow human being, and I try to
observe the Golden Rule at all times. I'm a bit long in the tooth to be just
realizing that many people don't respect the Golden Rule, nor do they respect
those who live by it. Pity.
I joined this group because I felt, 1) I might learn something, (which I
definitely have in many ways that have benefitted me as a surf musician), and 2)
because I felt that I might impart something of value to some of the less
experienced, younger players, who are carrying on this wonderful music form, and
who I sincerely want to support and help all I can. And that is sincere, from
the heart.
It seems there are some in the group that enjoy crapping on other people's
parades, and I've definitely felt the target of this several times, but those
people got kicked off the group because they pissed everyone off.
Ivan any time you want to hear a sampling of our music, www.soudclick.com has
eight of our originals full-length and downloadable. Let the music speak for
itself. I'm done.
Bruce D
ipongrac <> wrote:
I think all of us are getting a bit fed up with all this, as Shawn
did. I think Shawn's heart was in the right place with this post,
and let me just try to add a few things to it.
--- In , "Shawn Martin"
<drumuitar@y...> wrote:
> Bruce does have a lot of experience with surf guitar, gear, and
the
> like. I think part of the problem he's had is not being totally
hip
> to web-speak and he sometimes takes offense to things that aren't
> necessarily meant to be negative. Maybe he does talk about his
> experience a lot and maybe it can be annoying but as the saying
goes,
> it ain't bragging if you can do it.
I don't know Bruce nor do I know Bruce's band. When I first found
out about his band, I was intrigued and wanted to hear them. Over
the last few months, that feeling has diminished due to his posts.
In many ways, Bruce does seem like a nice man that wants to help.
He also does not seem to be somebody that's just trying to flame
people. But he has stirred the pot more than a few times exactly
because he has taken offense to things that aren't meant to be
offensive, and has in turn very quickly gone on the offensive
himself. And we've seen he's pretty good at going on the
offensive! At the same time, I believe that everybody on this list
by now has heard many, MANY times how Phil Dirt thought that Bruce's
guitar tone on the Longboard Ranch was very authentic and great,
etc. I have been increasingly getting a sense that his
participation on this list has as much to do with self-promotion as
being a part of the discussions, learning and sharing his knowledge
with the others. I very much hope that this is not the case, and I
would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I also
understand how some members of the list are starting to react
negatively to his posts in general. I believe Bruce could help the
situation by just posting his opinion without elevating himself all
the time (it's no problem sometime, we all do it), and by chilling
out a bit before going on the offensive. (And BTW, believe me, I'm
aware that many of us here want to promote our bands and projects,
and in fact, most of us appreciate that info, but at some point it
just becomes too much.)
> On the other side, Bill is talking nearly the same way Bruce is,
> without the experience under his belt. A certain amount of
cockiness
> is sort of a prerequisite for musicians, especially when you're
> younger. That being said, Bill is narrow minded about surf (which
he
> knows) and a bunch of us have tried to get him to listen to other
> stuff, but he isn't interested. That's fine for him and hopefully
> he'll broaden his horizons a little as time goes on. I've played
> drums for 20+ years and have been been an on and off guitar player
for
> 15 or so. The most important thing I know is if you want to get
> anywhere as a musician, you have to be open to everything, even
music
> you don't like. You can learn a lot from music you wouldn't just
sit
> around and listen to. You also have to keep your ego in check.
I've clearly also had my differences with Bill, and we've discussed
them off-list. But I would like to defend Bill, at least somewhat.
First, I don't think he should get the blame for all this bickering,
cause in fact he joined in it quite late today. Second, I really
doubt that Bill is interested in getting anywhere as a 'musician'.
I think he simply loves playing the music that he loves, which to
some of us may seem pretty narrow. But I see his point - he knows
what he likes and what he doesn't like, and doesn't want to waste
his time on stuff he doesn't like. I personally think he's missing
out on some great stuff, but what the hell - it's all so
subjective. I think all of us know that when it comes to 'purist'
traditionalists, Bill (and Klas) are holding down that ground. And
you know what? That's just fine by me. I think it's important to
have people like that around to keep reminding us of the
foundations. And I know that Bill is 100% committed to this genre,
and loves it deeply. I don't think his comments about Bruce were
caused by Bill's narrowmindedness, but rather by his frustration
with Bruce's own certainty in espousing some controversial views and
aggressiveness in his responses to the challenges of those views.
And yes, Bill is arrogant - I believe there are more than a few of
us around here with a very strong ego. But having recently got the
Reluctant Aquanauts debut CD, I can say that I think the guy
definitely does have the chops and the talent to back that ego. So,
let's cut him a break.
> Although Ivan is only about a
> year older than me, he's one of my guitar "heroes" and I can't even
> fathom having a conversation with him where I took the attitude
that
> Bill does with Bruce...or Ivan and others on occasion. Maybe it's
a
> generational thing but I have a lot more respect for people, even
when
> I don't agree with them.
Thank you VERY much, Shawn, for your very kind words. I appreciate
it greatly, though I'm honestly at a loss for words how to respond
to it. I'm honored. Especially as I know you're a fine and
imaginative musician, as well as a wonderful guy, yourself. As far
as the respect part, I certainly agree that it would be very well
and good for all of us to treat each other with respect. But I also
believe that we must work to earn our respect in our posts, and one
part of that is knowing when to turn-off the self-promotion push.
(Believe me, I've learned that the hard way!)
[I suspect this post may get me in some or even a lot of trouble. I
hope that doesn't happen... If it does, I'll just say that I meant
well.]
Ivan
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
None of this is about your music. I love Longboard Ranch. You have a
great trad sound.
--- In , bruce duncan <wetreverb@y...> wrote:
Ivan any time you want to hear a sampling of our music,
www.soudclick.com has
eight of our originals full-length and downloadable. Let the music
speak for
itself. I'm done.
\
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...> wrote:
>
>I have been increasingly getting a sense that his
> participation on this list has as much to do with self-promotion as
> being a part of the discussions, learning and sharing his knowledge
> with the others. I very much hope that this is not the case, and I
> would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I also
> understand how some members of the list are starting to react
> negatively to his posts in general. I believe Bruce could help the
> situation by just posting his opinion without elevating himself all
> the time (it's no problem sometime, we all do it), and by chilling
> out a bit before going on the offensive. (And BTW, believe me, I'm
> aware that many of us here want to promote our bands and projects,
> and in fact, most of us appreciate that info, but at some point it
> just becomes too much.)
This very well may be the case. I can't really know what his motives
are although I am one who took a hit from him when he thought I was
criticizing him when I wasn't.
> I've clearly also had my differences with Bill, and we've discussed
> them off-list. But I would like to defend Bill, at least somewhat.
> First, I don't think he should get the blame for all this bickering,
> cause in fact he joined in it quite late today. Second, I really
> doubt that Bill is interested in getting anywhere as a 'musician'.
I probably didn't use the right wording. I don't mean "musician" in
terms of becoming famous or rich or whatever. I mean from a learning
standpoint. Lord knows that I'm not going to go any farther than
where I've already been but I love music. I listen to just about
anything aside from (c)rap and like to think that I'm taking something
away from it musically.
>I don't think his comments about Bruce were
> caused by Bill's narrowmindedness, but rather by his frustration
> with Bruce's own certainty in espousing some controversial views and
> aggressiveness in his responses to the challenges of those views.
> And yes, Bill is arrogant - I believe there are more than a few of
> us around here with a very strong ego. But having recently got the
> Reluctant Aquanauts debut CD, I can say that I think the guy
> definitely does have the chops and the talent to back that ego. So,
> let's cut him a break.
You're probably right. I guess this has been an accumulation of
several threads over many months that finally made me burst.
> Thank you VERY much, Shawn, for your very kind words. I appreciate
> it greatly, though I'm honestly at a loss for words how to respond
> to it. I'm honored. Especially as I know you're a fine and
> imaginative musician, as well as a wonderful guy, yourself.
I don't know about all that, but I'm totally serious regarding your
playing. I'm also a huge Shads & Atlantics fan and what you and the
Cossacks did, even though there were only two released cds, is
probably in my top 10-20 surf cd list...especially Tsar Wars. Your
sense of melody is the type of stuff I hope to be able to write
eventually.
> As far
> as the respect part, I certainly agree that it would be very well
> and good for all of us to treat each other with respect. But I also
> believe that we must work to earn our respect in our posts, and one
> part of that is knowing when to turn-off the self-promotion push.
> (Believe me, I've learned that the hard way!)
>
> [I suspect this post may get me in some or even a lot of trouble. I
> hope that doesn't happen... If it does, I'll just say that I meant
> well.]
Trust me, this stuff has been childsplay compared to the flame wars of
usenet :-)
Shawn Martin
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
So I wouldn't get a big head, I was given the gift of a handicap to
keep me in constant touch with my limitations
-Apostle Paul
Apparently this earlier posting was not read in its entirety when posted
earlier, so for the benefit of Ivan, Shawn, and anyone else who questions my
motives in being part of this group please read this:
The only self-promotion I've used any of the discussion groups for, has been to
announce our gigs, in which I know, many other bands in these groups do so also.
I'm truly sorry if my passion in trying to share some of my best discoveries
with younger musicians, to help them along, (and to help them to avoid some of
the mistakes and pitfalls that I had to learn from) has struck others as being
negative. That was most definitely NOT my intention.
Like Bill and others, I ALSO get frustrated when people seem to deliberately
extract the most contrary possible meaning from something I said while believing
I was among kindred spirits! My mistake - I WON'T stick my neck out again,
here!
Why did I bring Phil Dirt and others into the discussion. Frankly, I shouldn't
have dignified a punkish response in the first place, by doing so, but I gave
benefit of doubt that I was dealing with a fellow human being, one who didn't
have any clue of the accumulated knowledge from which I was speaking, and I try
to observe the Golden Rule at all times. I'm a bit long in the tooth to be just
realizing that many people don't respect the Golden Rule, nor do they respect
those who live by it. Pity.
I joined this group because I felt, 1) I might learn something, (which I
definitely have in many ways that have benefitted me as a surf musician), and 2)
because I felt that I might impart something of value to some of the less
experienced, younger players, who are carrying on this wonderful music form, and
who I sincerely want to support and help all I can. And that is sincere, from
the heart.
It seems there are some in the group that enjoy crapping on other people's
parades, and I've definitely felt I was the target of this several times, but
some of those people got kicked off the group because they pissed everyone off.
Ivan any time you want to hear a sampling of our music, www.soudclick.com has
eight of our originals full-length and downloadable. Let the music speak for
itself. I'm done.
Bruce D
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 7/22/05, bruce duncan <> wrote:
> It seems there are some in the group that enjoy crapping on other people's
parades,
> and I've definitely felt I was the target of this several times, but some of
those people got
> kicked off the group because they pissed everyone off.
Only one person has ever been kicked off this list to date. You can
probably guess who it was.
BN
He who must not be named has a new Live 365 website. I thought
everyone should know.
--- In , Brian Neal <bgneal@g...> wrote:
> On 7/22/05, bruce duncan <wetreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> Only one person has ever been kicked off this list to date. You can
> probably guess who it was.
>
> BN
