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Bruce: The reason I posted my message # 15011 was to give "robmantid"
Rob Campbell, the initiator of this topic (message # 14441), some
useful hints for gear, which representate my personal opinion and
result from my experience in playing SurfMusic, 60s Beat, Rockabilly
and 50s R 'n' R since 1985.
I don't think I misinterpreted Rob's query and what he wanted to
know; but for sure you and some other members got me wrong, so that
the impression was given that I must be some idiot who hasn't got a
clue what he's talking about. The cause of that might be my bloody
English, for I come from Germany.
1.) "Forget the Fender Outboard Reverb Unit [...] unaffordable [...]"
I definitely didn't plead for playing Surf without any reverb! What I
meant was such an extremely emphasized reverberation as used by e. g.
the Fathoms.
Rob seems to be new in playing Surf Guitar, and, as he said, has a
low budget. So - what I did was trying to help and to tell him, that -
aside from personal playing technique - to my opinion in Rob's case
the amp is the most important factor, not the guitar or an expensive
additional effect like the Fender Outboard Rev., which is not a "must
be", especially not for a beginner who will get along very fine with
the built-in reverb cranked up to 10. You oughtta hear my Vibrolux
splashing! I didn't say anything negative about the holy Outboard.
Gee - wish I could afford it for myself !! But every time I saw one -
even on eBay - it was sold for much more than my Vibro cost in used
state.
2.) "However, before I started messing with the wiring and circuitry
on a valuable vintage Fender amp, I'd weigh the reduction in the
modified amp's value, versus the cost of a Reverb Unit [...]"
The procedure I mentioned isn't a mod at all, just a little old trick
Mel Waldorf of ¡Los Meltones! once told me to enhance the reverb a
bit: Pull the REVERB RETURN / REVERB OUT plug coming from the reverb
tank out of the amp's socket, connect it to a short seperate cord
with cinch jack on the one end and plug the other end into the NORMAL
1 socket on the amp's front panel. That's all. You see, no soldering,
no circuitry or wiring modification; the reverbed signal coming out
of the tank is just lead back into the amp to run through the
amplifying circuit one more time.
3.) "[...] I wonder who was Bernie's source of such a pearl of wisdom
[...]"
Guess while typing messages # 15018 and # 15022 you must have had a
real bad day, and, yes, to me it sounded aggressive and attacking.
But why? When "Reverborama" and "SurfGuitar101" were founded, I held
the hope that the days of ignorance, arrogance and personal battles
as fought on "Cowabunga" would be over. We're here for sharing our
enthusiasm and knowledge about our favourite kind of music.
4.) Believe me, buddy, I AM a true surf music and vintage gear
aficionado.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In , bruce duncan <wetreverb@y...>
wrote:
> Now lemme see,
> There are two major bands whose names come to mind when discussing
surf without using Reverb (since 1961 when Leo Fender introduced the
Fender Reverb Unit):
> 1) The Ventures, whose "Surfin' " album released in early'63 was
minus any reverb, and who also covered "Wipe Out" on their "Let's
Go!" album, also minus any reverb;
> 2) The Bel Airs, but mainly because Paul Johnson chose to make a
big stink out of Eddie Bertrand's wish to emulate other surf bands,
and use heavy Reverb.
> Now, The Ventures, (Don Wilson in particular) keep denying that
they're a surf band, holding themselves out more as a general rock
Instrumental Band, so their use or non-use of reverb would hardly be
considered definitive by a true surf music aficionado.
> In the case of The Bel Airs, now, 42 years later, Paul Johnson
himself uses reverb heavily and would be the first to admit that
Bertrand was correct in foreseeing that Reverb would become a
defining element of the true sound of surf music.
> Now, I wonder who was Bernie's source of such a pearl of wisdom
that you don't need splashy reverb to play surf music, (was it a
young dude from Long Island who says that if he chooses to label his
jazz songs as "surf" then it magically is surf?)
> Bruce D
>
> Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Play surf sans reverb tank? Blasphemy!!
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bernhard Lipinski
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 12:03 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: guitar or amp?
>... playing surf guitar doesn't mean you have to play with such a
deep splashing
>reverb all the time...
>Kindest regards, Bernie
Thanks for restating your case, Bernhard. Here's my restated response:
Play surf without a reverb tank? Blasphemy!!
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Bernhard Lipinski
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 12:59 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: guitar or amp? [to Bruce Duncan]
Bruce: The reason I posted my message # 15011 was to give "robmantid"
Rob Campbell, the initiator of this topic (message # 14441), some
useful hints for gear, which representate my personal opinion and
result from my experience in playing SurfMusic, 60s Beat, Rockabilly
and 50s R 'n' R since 1985.
I don't think I misinterpreted Rob's query and what he wanted to
know; but for sure you and some other members got me wrong, so that
the impression was given that I must be some idiot who hasn't got a
clue what he's talking about. The cause of that might be my bloody
English, for I come from Germany.
1.) "Forget the Fender Outboard Reverb Unit [...] unaffordable [...]"
I definitely didn't plead for playing Surf without any reverb! What I
meant was such an extremely emphasized reverberation as used by e. g.
the Fathoms.
Rob seems to be new in playing Surf Guitar, and, as he said, has a
low budget. So - what I did was trying to help and to tell him, that -
aside from personal playing technique - to my opinion in Rob's case
the amp is the most important factor, not the guitar or an expensive
additional effect like the Fender Outboard Rev., which is not a "must
be", especially not for a beginner who will get along very fine with
the built-in reverb cranked up to 10. You oughtta hear my Vibrolux
splashing! I didn't say anything negative about the holy Outboard.
Gee - wish I could afford it for myself !! But every time I saw one -
even on eBay - it was sold for much more than my Vibro cost in used
state.
2.) "However, before I started messing with the wiring and circuitry
on a valuable vintage Fender amp, I'd weigh the reduction in the
modified amp's value, versus the cost of a Reverb Unit [...]"
The procedure I mentioned isn't a mod at all, just a little old trick
Mel Waldorf of ¡Los Meltones! once told me to enhance the reverb a
bit: Pull the REVERB RETURN / REVERB OUT plug coming from the reverb
tank out of the amp's socket, connect it to a short seperate cord
with cinch jack on the one end and plug the other end into the NORMAL
1 socket on the amp's front panel. That's all. You see, no soldering,
no circuitry or wiring modification; the reverbed signal coming out
of the tank is just lead back into the amp to run through the
amplifying circuit one more time.
3.) "[...] I wonder who was Bernie's source of such a pearl of wisdom
[...]"
Guess while typing messages # 15018 and # 15022 you must have had a
real bad day, and, yes, to me it sounded aggressive and attacking.
But why? When "Reverborama" and "SurfGuitar101" were founded, I held
the hope that the days of ignorance, arrogance and personal battles
as fought on "Cowabunga" would be over. We're here for sharing our
enthusiasm and knowledge about our favourite kind of music.
4.) Believe me, buddy, I AM a true surf music and vintage gear
aficionado.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In , bruce duncan <wetreverb@y...>
wrote:
> Now lemme see,
> There are two major bands whose names come to mind when discussing
surf without using Reverb (since 1961 when Leo Fender introduced the
Fender Reverb Unit):
> 1) The Ventures, whose "Surfin' " album released in early'63 was
minus any reverb, and who also covered "Wipe Out" on their "Let's
Go!" album, also minus any reverb;
> 2) The Bel Airs, but mainly because Paul Johnson chose to make a
big stink out of Eddie Bertrand's wish to emulate other surf bands,
and use heavy Reverb.
> Now, The Ventures, (Don Wilson in particular) keep denying that
they're a surf band, holding themselves out more as a general rock
Instrumental Band, so their use or non-use of reverb would hardly be
considered definitive by a true surf music aficionado.
> In the case of The Bel Airs, now, 42 years later, Paul Johnson
himself uses reverb heavily and would be the first to admit that
Bertrand was correct in foreseeing that Reverb would become a
defining element of the true sound of surf music.
> Now, I wonder who was Bernie's source of such a pearl of wisdom
that you don't need splashy reverb to play surf music, (was it a
young dude from Long Island who says that if he chooses to label his
jazz songs as "surf" then it magically is surf?)
> Bruce D
>
> Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Play surf sans reverb tank? Blasphemy!!
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bernhard Lipinski
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 12:03 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: guitar or amp?
>... playing surf guitar doesn't mean you have to play with such a
deep splashing
>reverb all the time...
>Kindest regards, Bernie
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bernie,
Thanks for your clarification - Yes, it is all too easy to be misinterpreted and
misunderstood when trying to type a posting amid all kinds of other
distractions, and naturally being in a hurry, sometimes we're too brief in our
qualifying verbage.
Having said that, as one who's been playing surf guitar nearly twice as long as
you, it was not until I had my first Fender Reverb Unit that I really was able
to refine and polish both my surf lead guitar and muted rhythm guitar
techniques.
Your description of the patch cable into the normal channel brought back
memories of an older friend who did the same thing on his '67 Super Reverb -
it's better, but still no match for the sound of the good 'ol outboard Reverb
Unit.
Since I see '63 Vintage Reissue Reverb Units selling constantly at $250-$350 on
e-bay, I'm a bit puzzled that you were able to acquire a Vibrolux Reverb for
less than this? Unless the Vibrolux was purchased a long time ago, when prices
overall were much lower than now, scoring a decent, working Vibrolux Reverb for
less than $800 these days is next to impossible!
And let me state here and now, (and in this I know I have the agreement of Marty
Tippens), I own BOTH an original vintage '63 AND a '63 Reissue Fender Reverb
Unit. Neither one is clearly superior or inferior to the other. There are very
subtle differences, but to my practiced ear, either one is totally 100%
acceptable for public performance or studio recording of wet, splashy surf
music. So, IMHO, there's no pressing need to spend more than the price of a
used Reissue Reverb Unit.
As a practiced, pro-level surf guitarist, it definitely IS my belief that a
beginning guitarist who wants to get serious with surf music, should purchase a
less expensive amp to begin with, and keep about $300 for the purchase of an
outboard reverb. Very nice Silverface Princeton Reverbs are going from
$400-$600 these days, another excellent alternative is the Peavey Bravo, a
25-watt tube amp that many players consider one of the best amps Peavey ever
made - these can be had at $250-$350 on ebay. So, if you can score an amp at
$250-$400 and a Reissue Reverb Unit at $300, you're still $100-$250 below the
average cost of a Silverface Vibrolux Reverb, which at 35 watts RMS is a lot
more amp than a beginner really needs for bedroom or living room practice!
And when the time comes to increase the investment by upgrading the amp, that
Silverface Princeton or Peavey Bravo will be worth an additional $150-$250,
helping a little bit to soften the impact of purchasing the more expensive
Vibrolux, or whatever the player has in mind.
I agree with you that it is can be very difficult to budget the money to buy all
these goodies, but, if you truly have a passion for this music, and want to
learn to do it right, I remember the sacrifices I went through, to save a few
dollars every week to upgrade my gear. It was several years to make it happen,
but ultimately (and no doubt with some undeserved good luck) I've been able to
reach a place where I feel I've got 99.9% the perfect rig for performing live or
recording classic, authentic, faithful 1960's style surf music.
Regards,
Bruce D
Bernhard Lipinski <> wrote:
Bruce: The reason I posted my message # 15011 was to give "robmantid"
Rob Campbell, the initiator of this topic (message # 14441), some
useful hints for gear, which representate my personal opinion and
result from my experience in playing SurfMusic, 60s Beat, Rockabilly
and 50s R 'n' R since 1985.
I don't think I misinterpreted Rob's query and what he wanted to
know; but for sure you and some other members got me wrong, so that
the impression was given that I must be some idiot who hasn't got a
clue what he's talking about. The cause of that might be my bloody
English, for I come from Germany.
1.) "Forget the Fender Outboard Reverb Unit [...] unaffordable [...]"
I definitely didn't plead for playing Surf without any reverb! What I
meant was such an extremely emphasized reverberation as used by e. g.
the Fathoms.
Rob seems to be new in playing Surf Guitar, and, as he said, has a
low budget. So - what I did was trying to help and to tell him, that -
aside from personal playing technique - to my opinion in Rob's case
the amp is the most important factor, not the guitar or an expensive
additional effect like the Fender Outboard Rev., which is not a "must
be", especially not for a beginner who will get along very fine with
the built-in reverb cranked up to 10. You oughtta hear my Vibrolux
splashing! I didn't say anything negative about the holy Outboard.
Gee - wish I could afford it for myself !! But every time I saw one -
even on eBay - it was sold for much more than my Vibro cost in used
state.
2.) "However, before I started messing with the wiring and circuitry
on a valuable vintage Fender amp, I'd weigh the reduction in the
modified amp's value, versus the cost of a Reverb Unit [...]"
The procedure I mentioned isn't a mod at all, just a little old trick
Mel Waldorf of ¡Los Meltones! once told me to enhance the reverb a
bit: Pull the REVERB RETURN / REVERB OUT plug coming from the reverb
tank out of the amp's socket, connect it to a short seperate cord
with cinch jack on the one end and plug the other end into the NORMAL
1 socket on the amp's front panel. That's all. You see, no soldering,
no circuitry or wiring modification; the reverbed signal coming out
of the tank is just lead back into the amp to run through the
amplifying circuit one more time.
3.) "[...] I wonder who was Bernie's source of such a pearl of wisdom
[...]"
Guess while typing messages # 15018 and # 15022 you must have had a
real bad day, and, yes, to me it sounded aggressive and attacking.
But why? When "Reverborama" and "SurfGuitar101" were founded, I held
the hope that the days of ignorance, arrogance and personal battles
as fought on "Cowabunga" would be over. We're here for sharing our
enthusiasm and knowledge about our favourite kind of music.
4.) Believe me, buddy, I AM a true surf music and vintage gear
aficionado.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In , bruce duncan <wetreverb@y...>
wrote:
> Now lemme see,
> There are two major bands whose names come to mind when discussing
surf without using Reverb (since 1961 when Leo Fender introduced the
Fender Reverb Unit):
> 1) The Ventures, whose "Surfin' " album released in early'63 was
minus any reverb, and who also covered "Wipe Out" on their "Let's
Go!" album, also minus any reverb;
> 2) The Bel Airs, but mainly because Paul Johnson chose to make a
big stink out of Eddie Bertrand's wish to emulate other surf bands,
and use heavy Reverb.
> Now, The Ventures, (Don Wilson in particular) keep denying that
they're a surf band, holding themselves out more as a general rock
Instrumental Band, so their use or non-use of reverb would hardly be
considered definitive by a true surf music aficionado.
> In the case of The Bel Airs, now, 42 years later, Paul Johnson
himself uses reverb heavily and would be the first to admit that
Bertrand was correct in foreseeing that Reverb would become a
defining element of the true sound of surf music.
> Now, I wonder who was Bernie's source of such a pearl of wisdom
that you don't need splashy reverb to play surf music, (was it a
young dude from Long Island who says that if he chooses to label his
jazz songs as "surf" then it magically is surf?)
> Bruce D
>
> Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Play surf sans reverb tank? Blasphemy!!
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bernhard Lipinski
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 12:03 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: guitar or amp?
>... playing surf guitar doesn't mean you have to play with such a
deep splashing
>reverb all the time...
>Kindest regards, Bernie
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
...it definitely IS my belief that a beginning guitarist who wants to get
serious with surf
music, should purchase a less expensive amp to begin with, and keep about $300
for the
purchase of an outboard reverb.
I beg to differ. As a beginner, I found my reverb tanks to be a major tonal
distraction. My
two reissues tended to be trebly and they buried the tone of my guitar, making
it less
incumbent upon me to play well and develop tone with my finger tips. I never
really
learned to "play" my Reverb tank so that it sounded good in conjunction with my
amps and
guitars. So, I eventually gave the tanks up in favor of playing through the
on-board reverb
on my '65 Twin Reverb Custom 15.
While I eventually want to get another reverb tank to deepen my "wet" 'verb
sound, I think
you can get a perfectly acceptable surf sound through on-board Fender reverb.
That said,
some Fender amps seem to have better reverb than others - mine is great, but I
have
heard Deluxe Reverb Reissues that were even better. And I believe there is a
Vibro-
something with on-board, hand-wired G15 circuitry. But, at several grand, it
ain't for
beginners!
>
> And let me state here and now, (and in this I know I have the
agreement of Marty Tippens), I own BOTH an original vintage '63 AND
a '63 Reissue Fender Reverb Unit. Neither one is clearly superior or
inferior to the other. There are very subtle differences, but to my
practiced ear, either one is totally 100% acceptable for public
performance or studio recording of wet, splashy surf music. So, IMHO,
there's no pressing need to spend more than the price of a used
Reissue Reverb Unit.
Well, my ear isn't as "practiced" as Bruce's, and I sure as hell don't
play in a critically acclaimed trad-sounding band. But even I can
tell the difference. You know Bruce you go on and on about gear and
getting your "trad sound" but the vintage tank compared to a reissue
tank is seems like such a bread and butter issue. I've had 3 reissue
tanks and non of them sound like my '64.
Bill
Bill, can't you disagree without being so utterly disagreeable? Why does every
other thing you say in your postings come across like a put-down? You sound
like a child in a grown-up's body.
My experience and knowledge have come over several decades, starting well before
you were even conceived. For someone so much younger, you sure seem to have a
narrow-minded attitude, dude.
ever so 'umbly,
Bruce D
supertwangreverb <> wrote:
>
> And let me state here and now, (and in this I know I have the
agreement of Marty Tippens), I own BOTH an original vintage '63 AND
a '63 Reissue Fender Reverb Unit. Neither one is clearly superior or
inferior to the other. There are very subtle differences, but to my
practiced ear, either one is totally 100% acceptable for public
performance or studio recording of wet, splashy surf music. So, IMHO,
there's no pressing need to spend more than the price of a used
Reissue Reverb Unit.
Well, my ear isn't as "practiced" as Bruce's, and I sure as hell don't
play in a critically acclaimed trad-sounding band. But even I can
tell the difference. You know Bruce you go on and on about gear and
getting your "trad sound" but the vintage tank compared to a reissue
tank is seems like such a bread and butter issue. I've had 3 reissue
tanks and non of them sound like my '64.
Bill
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As the one who started this all... I guess I want to thank everyone
for their input. I was really ready to spend a lot on a fine guitar,
but not one person suggested that was a wise tack; it was unanimous
that the amp is more important. So for now, I have a Chinese strat...
I've improved the grounding to eliminate buzz, put on a graphite nut
(still goes out of tune quickly), and learned about adjusting action.
It does sound pretty good, at least to me, though I would love to try
different pickups at some point. Running through a little fender
practice amp and a roland microcube. Sounds very cheesy, but the
notes are still the same, and I am learning music theory and technique
as much as I am learning how to perfect surf tone.
So I will be saving for a real reverb tank of some sort, and also a
tube amplifier, but its also great to hear your various techniques for
scrimping and saving. I think that is what rock n roll is actually
about, making do with what you have.
Not that I wouldnt love to visit your guitar museum, Bruce, or try to
talk you into selling one of your dozens of amps to help a young
brother out.
You say something about "faithful 1960's style surf music" which
raises an interesting question (at least to me). So many of the
recordings I have of old surf music are very low-fi. Its really hard
to account for the recording quality in analyzing the tone. For
example, I have learned to like the flattened, dull sound of old
garage music. To try to emulate this on the guitar, I thik I am
creating tones which do not reflect what has happening in the studio
during the recording. To put this another way, the very nature of the
recording is a final "effect" added to the sound, and one that I am in
many cases fond of. Hearing modern surf bands live, even when they
are playing faitfully, is jarring and overbright. My nostalgia is
based on crappy cassette copies of scratchy vinyl. A lamentable
situation maybe, but surely I am not alone?
Are there bands who do lo-fi recordings on purpose? Thee Headcoats
come to mind, though they aren't surf.
For those of you who were around to hear live surf music in "the day",
how did the sound compare to what is on the records? I personally
love the way Mar Gaya, for example, sounds like it was recorded in a
basement with the mic up in the living room. I'm sure it wasn't
really like that to hear the Fender Iv live, however.
Anyway, thanks for all your varied opinions on guitars, amps, and rock n roll.
Now I just have to find a stunted bass player and drummer in long
beach area to jam with on non-sanctioned equipment...
On 7/21/05, bruce duncan <> wrote:
> I agree with you that it is can be very difficult to budget the money to
> buy all these goodies, but, if you truly have a passion for this music, and
> want to learn to do it right, I remember the sacrifices I went through, to
> save a few dollars every week to upgrade my gear. It was several years to
> make it happen, but ultimately (and no doubt with some undeserved good luck)
> I've been able to reach a place where I feel I've got 99.9% the perfect rig
> for performing live or recording classic, authentic, faithful 1960's style
> surf music.
>
> Bill, can't you disagree without being so utterly disagreeable?
Why does every other thing you say in your postings come across like
a put-down? You sound like a child in a grown-up's body.
>
> My experience and knowledge have come over several decades,
starting well before you were even conceived. For someone so much
younger, you sure seem to have a narrow-minded attitude, dude.
>
> ever so 'umbly,
>
> Bruce D
Oh Bruce, I know you've been around longer than me. I said in the
previous post my ear isn't as "practiced" as yours. Remember? Or did
you not read all of it?
I think the reason most people here have trouble agreeing with you
is because of these huge huffs you gather yourself into when you
post your opinions.
Starting of your opinions like this "let me state here and now"
or "My experience and knowledge have come over several decades,
starting well before you were even conceived." or "As a practiced,
pro-level surf guitarist."
Look, I questioned a few of your statements about a 300 dollar
imported guitar being a better deal than a 700 dollar American
guitar vintage reissue, with a bunch of extra goodies. And, I asked
you how you cannot tell the difference between a reissue reverb tank
and a vintage one. God forbid someone disagrees with Bruce D!
Bill
www.reluctantaquanatus.com
> Are there bands who do lo-fi recordings on purpose? Thee Headcoats
> come to mind, though they aren't surf.
>
This is great, and funny Ivan and I were just talking about some lo-
fi recordings. I would love to do some lo-fi recordings, and I'm
sort of on the fence about what to do.
I believe Ivan and I were talking about how effective the Bomboras
and the Finks use of "lo-fi techniques" were. You know it almost
enhances their guitar sounds, which really fits the mood it sounds
like they were going for. That being said the drums are often lost
when recording or done in "lo-fi" Try grabbing some of the Finks or
early Bomboras for a great example. I also think the Phantom
Surfers did some great lo-fi stuff, and for newer bands the Monsters
from Mars. www.myspace.com/monstersfrommars
As a side note I remember asking Gregg Hunt about how they got such
a great "lo-fi" sound on the Finks stuff, and what I though was a
great response was, he thought there stuff wasn't lo-fi. Probably
compared to a lot of the stuff they were listening to at the time,
their own stuff sounded pretty good, which really is a true
rockn'roll garage attitude to take towards this stuff.
Also, another great point Ivan brough up, and I hope he chimes in
was some of the great firstwave bands who recorded in such poor
states of "lo-fi" it's almost a shame because we really don't get a
great feel for what they sounded like. The Crossfires were the
example.
Bill
www.reluctantaquanauts.com
You are the disagreeable one and it is you who's posts come across as
put downs. You turn everything around on other people. Telling them
they need to chill out, that they are argumentative, et cetera. You
walk around like an elitist talking about your years of experiance and
your critically acclaimed surf band. This rubs people the wrong way.
Look at your posts.
And just to let you know, many of us talk about you behind your back.
We do so not to be cowards or out of jealousy(as I think is what you
would take it to be)but not to lower Surf Guitar 101 to a place of
insulting.
I enjoy your band Bruce, I would love to meet you if real life to see
what you are really like, but you rub people the wrong way on the
internet. I don't hate you.
--- In , bruce duncan <wetreverb@y...> wrote:
> Bill, can't you disagree without being so utterly disagreeable? Why
does every other thing you say in your postings come across like a
put-down? You sound like a child in a grown-up's body.
>
> My experience and knowledge have come over several decades, starting
well before you were even conceived. For someone so much younger, you
sure seem to have a narrow-minded attitude, dude.
>
> ever so 'umbly,
>
> Bruce D
>
> supertwangreverb <supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > And let me state here and now, (and in this I know I have the
> agreement of Marty Tippens), I own BOTH an original vintage '63 AND
> a '63 Reissue Fender Reverb Unit. Neither one is clearly superior or
> inferior to the other. There are very subtle differences, but to my
> practiced ear, either one is totally 100% acceptable for public
> performance or studio recording of wet, splashy surf music. So, IMHO,
> there's no pressing need to spend more than the price of a used
> Reissue Reverb Unit.
>
> Well, my ear isn't as "practiced" as Bruce's, and I sure as hell don't
> play in a critically acclaimed trad-sounding band. But even I can
> tell the difference. You know Bruce you go on and on about gear and
> getting your "trad sound" but the vintage tank compared to a reissue
> tank is seems like such a bread and butter issue. I've had 3 reissue
> tanks and non of them sound like my '64.
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
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Can't we all just play surf guitar!!! Miller
--- In , "Jacob Dobner"
<jacobdobner@y...> wrote:
> You are the disagreeable one and it is you who's posts come across as
> put downs. You turn everything around on other people. Telling them
> they need to chill out, that they are argumentative, et cetera. You
> walk around like an elitist talking about your years of experiance and
> your critically acclaimed surf band. This rubs people the wrong way.
> Look at your posts.
>
> And just to let you know, many of us talk about you behind your back.
> We do so not to be cowards or out of jealousy(as I think is what you
> would take it to be)but not to lower Surf Guitar 101 to a place of
> insulting.
>
> I enjoy your band Bruce, I would love to meet you if real life to see
> what you are really like, but you rub people the wrong way on the
> internet. I don't hate you.
>
> --- In , bruce duncan <wetreverb@y...>
wrote:
> > Bill, can't you disagree without being so utterly disagreeable? Why
> does every other thing you say in your postings come across like a
> put-down? You sound like a child in a grown-up's body.
> >
> > My experience and knowledge have come over several decades, starting
> well before you were even conceived. For someone so much younger, you
> sure seem to have a narrow-minded attitude, dude.
> >
> > ever so 'umbly,
> >
> > Bruce D
> >
> > supertwangreverb <supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > And let me state here and now, (and in this I know I have the
> > agreement of Marty Tippens), I own BOTH an original vintage '63 AND
> > a '63 Reissue Fender Reverb Unit. Neither one is clearly superior or
> > inferior to the other. There are very subtle differences, but to my
> > practiced ear, either one is totally 100% acceptable for public
> > performance or studio recording of wet, splashy surf music. So,
IMHO,
> > there's no pressing need to spend more than the price of a used
> > Reissue Reverb Unit.
> >
> > Well, my ear isn't as "practiced" as Bruce's, and I sure as hell
don't
> > play in a critically acclaimed trad-sounding band. But even I can
> > tell the difference. You know Bruce you go on and on about gear and
> > getting your "trad sound" but the vintage tank compared to a reissue
> > tank is seems like such a bread and butter issue. I've had 3 reissue
> > tanks and non of them sound like my '64.
> >
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Guitar music Guitar sheet music Guitar tablature Stringed instruments
> >
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> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >
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> Service.
> >
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> >
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> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Can't well all just play surf guitar without somebody bringing his
years of experience down upon you.
--- In , "loscobrassurf"
<loscobrassurf@y...> wrote:
> Can't we all just play surf guitar!!! Miller
>
>
>
> --- In , "Jacob Dobner"
> <jacobdobner@y...> wrote:
> > You are the disagreeable one and it is you who's posts come across as
> > put downs. You turn everything around on other people. Telling them
> > they need to chill out, that they are argumentative, et cetera. You
> > walk around like an elitist talking about your years of experiance and
> > your critically acclaimed surf band. This rubs people the wrong way.
> > Look at your posts.
> >
> > And just to let you know, many of us talk about you behind your back.
> > We do so not to be cowards or out of jealousy(as I think is what you
> > would take it to be)but not to lower Surf Guitar 101 to a place of
> > insulting.
> >
> > I enjoy your band Bruce, I would love to meet you if real life to see
> > what you are really like, but you rub people the wrong way on the
> > internet. I don't hate you.
> >
> > --- In , bruce duncan <wetreverb@y...>
> wrote:
> > > Bill, can't you disagree without being so utterly disagreeable? Why
> > does every other thing you say in your postings come across like a
> > put-down? You sound like a child in a grown-up's body.
> > >
> > > My experience and knowledge have come over several decades, starting
> > well before you were even conceived. For someone so much younger, you
> > sure seem to have a narrow-minded attitude, dude.
> > >
> > > ever so 'umbly,
> > >
> > > Bruce D
> > >
> > > supertwangreverb <supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > And let me state here and now, (and in this I know I have the
> > > agreement of Marty Tippens), I own BOTH an original vintage '63 AND
> > > a '63 Reissue Fender Reverb Unit. Neither one is clearly
superior or
> > > inferior to the other. There are very subtle differences, but
to my
> > > practiced ear, either one is totally 100% acceptable for public
> > > performance or studio recording of wet, splashy surf music. So,
> IMHO,
> > > there's no pressing need to spend more than the price of a used
> > > Reissue Reverb Unit.
> > >
> > > Well, my ear isn't as "practiced" as Bruce's, and I sure as hell
> don't
> > > play in a critically acclaimed trad-sounding band. But even I can
> > > tell the difference. You know Bruce you go on and on about gear
and
> > > getting your "trad sound" but the vintage tank compared to a
reissue
> > > tank is seems like such a bread and butter issue. I've had 3
reissue
> > > tanks and non of them sound like my '64.
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > > Visit for archived
> > messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > Guitar music Guitar sheet music Guitar tablature Stringed
instruments
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > >
> > > Visit your group "SurfGuitar101" on the web.
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks to Ivan and the few others who actually chose the offer
legitimate responses to the topic. I'm not looking to buy any new
guitars at this point either but it looks pretty durn cool. I just
got done upgrading my Fernandes Decade Jazzcaster, which has me
finished with buying guitar stuff for a while.
I'm sure I'll piss off some people (well, two anyway) but I'm
personally sick of this crap. I used to be a regular on the
percussion Usenet group and got fed up with the petty, whiny garbage.
Bruce does have a lot of experience with surf guitar, gear, and the
like. I think part of the problem he's had is not being totally hip
to web-speak and he sometimes takes offense to things that aren't
necessarily meant to be negative. Maybe he does talk about his
experience a lot and maybe it can be annoying but as the saying goes,
it ain't bragging if you can do it.
On the other side, Bill is talking nearly the same way Bruce is,
without the experience under his belt. A certain amount of cockiness
is sort of a prerequisite for musicians, especially when you're
younger. That being said, Bill is narrow minded about surf (which he
knows) and a bunch of us have tried to get him to listen to other
stuff, but he isn't interested. That's fine for him and hopefully
he'll broaden his horizons a little as time goes on. I've played
drums for 20+ years and have been been an on and off guitar player for
15 or so. The most important thing I know is if you want to get
anywhere as a musician, you have to be open to everything, even music
you don't like. You can learn a lot from music you wouldn't just sit
around and listen to. You also have to keep your ego in check. I had
the luxury of not getting all cocky because I never thought I was a
very good drummer, back when I was gigging 15 years ago. It took me
until a few years ago to realize that I *was* a damn good drummer. I
don't have the physical strength that I had back then so for the most
part, my drumming days are behind me. Although Ivan is only about a
year older than me, he's one of my guitar "heroes" and I can't even
fathom having a conversation with him where I took the attitude that
Bill does with Bruce...or Ivan and others on occasion. Maybe it's a
generational thing but I have a lot more respect for people, even when
I don't agree with them.
Sorry if anyone is peeved by this but I got to my boiling point.
Off soapbox...
Shawn Martin
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
So I wouldn't get a big head, I was given the gift of a handicap to
keep me in constant touch with my limitations
-Apostle Paul
> On the other side, Bill is talking nearly the same way Bruce is,
> without the experience under his belt. A certain amount of
cockiness
> is sort of a prerequisite for musicians, especially when you're
> younger. That being said, Bill is narrow minded about surf (which
he
> knows) and a bunch of us have tried to get him to listen to other
> stuff, but he isn't interested. That's fine for him and hopefully
> he'll broaden his horizons a little as time goes on. I've played
> drums for 20+ years and have been been an on and off guitar player
for
> 15 or so. The most important thing I know is if you want to get
> anywhere as a musician, you have to be open to everything, even
music
> you don't like. You can learn a lot from music you wouldn't just
sit
> around and listen to. You also have to keep your ego in check. I
had
> the luxury of not getting all cocky because I never thought I was a
> very good drummer, back when I was gigging 15 years ago. It took
me
> until a few years ago to realize that I *was* a damn good
drummer. I
> don't have the physical strength that I had back then so for the
most
> part, my drumming days are behind me. Although Ivan is only about
a
> year older than me, he's one of my guitar "heroes" and I can't even
> fathom having a conversation with him where I took the attitude
that
> Bill does with Bruce...or Ivan and others on occasion. Maybe it's
a
> generational thing but I have a lot more respect for people, even
when
> I don't agree with them.
>
> Sorry if anyone is peeved by this but I got to my boiling point.
>
> Off soapbox...
Sorry to offend you Shawn, or anyone else for that matter. True
Ivan and I have disagreed in the past, but I wouldn't put it up
there with the constant bickering that's been going on lately with
Red Thunder and Bruce D. I think, Ivan knows I respect him. I
wouldn't bug him offlist as much as I do if I didn't!
I don't know why you would single me out tho.
With all due respect Shawn, I'm really not for forcing myself to
like something. That doesn't make someone close minded. Your the
one who once told me you weren't all for listening to garage rock,
frat rock, and rockabilly. These are 3 other genres I listen to.
Broading my horizons? Again with all due respect, what do you know
about any of the music I listen to off list? It's a simple little
thing I follow...why waste my time listening to something I don't
like? I know what I like when I hear it, and I know what I don't
like when I don't hear it. I've heard you say it's taken you 5-6
listens of something to like it...why put yourself though that when
there's so much music out there to enjoy first spin? It's almost
like politics. Somethings you go for, somethings you just DON'T.
Do you understand??
I don't think I'm a great guitarist. I haven't addressed any of my
posts about my experinces like Bruce D, or using my own band as a
refrence. Where are you getting that from?
Bill
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
>
> Sorry to offend you Shawn, or anyone else for that matter.
I'm not offended. I'm just sick of the mindless bickering
> True
> Ivan and I have disagreed in the past, but I wouldn't put it up
> there with the constant bickering that's been going on lately with
> Red Thunder and Bruce D. I think, Ivan knows I respect him. I
> wouldn't bug him offlist as much as I do if I didn't!
>
> I don't know why you would single me out tho.
> With all due respect Shawn, I'm really not for forcing myself to
> like something. That doesn't make someone close minded. Your the
> one who once told me you weren't all for listening to garage rock,
> frat rock, and rockabilly.
I never said I don't listen to them. I actually listen to rockabilly
and psychobilly quite a bit. The only stuff that I said I didn't care
for is the hot rod stuff, which I find to be mostly studio dribble
played by people with little passion for the music. The distinction
is casually listening to something and "listening" to it. I listen to
a lot of stuff that gives me ideas musically, that I don't listen to
otherwise.
These are 3 other genres I listen to.
> Broading my horizons? Again with all due respect, what do you know
> about any of the music I listen to off list? It's a simple little
> thing I follow...why waste my time listening to something I don't
> like? I know what I like when I hear it, and I know what I don't
> like when I don't hear it. I've heard you say it's taken you 5-6
> listens of something to like it...why put yourself though that when
> there's so much music out there to enjoy first spin? It's almost
> like politics. Somethings you go for, somethings you just DON'T.
> Do you understand??
If I took that mindset, I never would have gotten into the Mermen or
Slacktone. I hated the Mermen when I first heard them. Now, from a
guitar standpoint, I've probably been influenced by Jim Thomas more
than any other single guitarist. Again, you aren't seeing the point
that it's possible to learn from music you don't like, and eventually
start liking stuff you didn't like before, just by keeping an open ear.
> I don't think I'm a great guitarist. I haven't addressed any of my
> posts about my experinces like Bruce D, or using my own band as a
> refrence. Where are you getting that from?
I never said you did (although I think you're pretty damn good). I
was saying how you have a level of cockiness that generally takes
people a couple decades to accumulate. I'm not saying that it's
necessarily bad, although you're going to find a lot of people who are
put off by it.
Shawn Martin
Life is short. Play for the music. Wear your heart on your sleeve.
So I wouldn't get a big head, I was given the gift of a handicap to
keep me in constant touch with my limitations
-Apostle Paul
I've said all I'm going to say. It is impossible to maintain a civil discourse
with people who have closed minds. Find someone else to misquote and pig-pile
on top of. I'm done.
Bruce D
supertwangreverb <> wrote:
> Bill, can't you disagree without being so utterly disagreeable?
Why does every other thing you say in your postings come across like
a put-down? You sound like a child in a grown-up's body.
>
> My experience and knowledge have come over several decades,
starting well before you were even conceived. For someone so much
younger, you sure seem to have a narrow-minded attitude, dude.
>
> ever so 'umbly,
>
> Bruce D
Oh Bruce, I know you've been around longer than me. I said in the
previous post my ear isn't as "practiced" as yours. Remember? Or did
you not read all of it?
I think the reason most people here have trouble agreeing with you
is because of these huge huffs you gather yourself into when you
post your opinions.
Starting of your opinions like this "let me state here and now"
or "My experience and knowledge have come over several decades,
starting well before you were even conceived." or "As a practiced,
pro-level surf guitarist."
Look, I questioned a few of your statements about a 300 dollar
imported guitar being a better deal than a 700 dollar American
guitar vintage reissue, with a bunch of extra goodies. And, I asked
you how you cannot tell the difference between a reissue reverb tank
and a vintage one. God forbid someone disagrees with Bruce D!
Bill
www.reluctantaquanatus.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In , Rob Campbell <mantid@g...>
wrote:
> You say something about "faithful 1960's style surf music" which
> raises an interesting question (at least to me). So many of the
> recordings I have of old surf music are very low-fi. Its really
hard
> to account for the recording quality in analyzing the tone. For
> example, I have learned to like the flattened, dull sound of old
> garage music. To try to emulate this on the guitar, I thik I am
> creating tones which do not reflect what has happening in the
studio
> during the recording. To put this another way, the very nature of
the
> recording is a final "effect" added to the sound, and one that I
am in
> many cases fond of. Hearing modern surf bands live, even when they
> are playing faitfully, is jarring and overbright. My nostalgia is
> based on crappy cassette copies of scratchy vinyl. A lamentable
> situation maybe, but surely I am not alone?
I think this is a very important point you bring up. I hang out on
the Shadows discussion groups a fair amount, and in their
neverending quest to get 'that sound', there's been a lot of
discussion of the role that the studio plays in the final sound.
There's no question that it has a huge impact. But it's difficult
to describe the influence it has on the sound, or certainly even
more difficult to recapture it, though many bands try.
I think the most famous example of a studio that has gone all out in
the attempt to sound like the sixties is the Toe Rag in UK, where
the Rapiers and the White Stripes record. More than a few surf
bands have recorded there, too, including the Treble Spankers. But
they only have vintage gear, including the board and many of the
vintage outboard pieces from the actual Abbey Road studios. They
get about as authentic of a sound as it's possible in this day and
age.
> Are there bands who do lo-fi recordings on purpose? Thee Headcoats
> come to mind, though they aren't surf.
Absolutely! The Phantom Surfers are the most (in)famous for their
lo-fi recording techniques, but there are many others: the early
Bomboras, the Trashwomen, the (German) Astronauts), Jackie & the
Cedrics (from Japan), Sir Bald Diddley and his two or three
different bands... That's all I can think of off the top of my
head, but I know there are many others. Bill or Klas, can you fill
in this list a bit more? Maybe the Daytonas would qualify, though I
really don't think so.
> For those of you who were around to hear live surf music in "the
day",
> how did the sound compare to what is on the records?
Well, I wasn't around back then, but today there are many bands
playing surf music that only use vintage gear, so we can be pretty
sure THAT'S what surf bands sounded like back then. Dick Dale still
uses the EXACT SAME gear he used over forty years ago, and though
it's changed through the years I'm sure, it probably still sounds a
lot like it did back then.
There's a particular 'woody' quality to a lot of guitar tones on
original surf records that I don't hear very often today, though. I
suspect it has something to do with the inability to capture high-
frequencies with the old recording equipment, but I must say that it
does give guitars a very pleasing tone.
> I personally love the way Mar Gaya, for example, sounds like it
> was recorded in a basement with the mic up in the living room.
> I'm sure it wasn't really like that to hear the Fender Iv live,
> however.
I think that's a safe bet. I imagine they were unbelievably loud
and trebly (cranked Dual Showmen with a Jag? Yikes!).
> Now I just have to find a stunted bass player and drummer in long
> beach area to jam with on non-sanctioned equipment...
Long Beach area?? I don't think you should have much problem
finding people who want to play surf music around there! Or at
least, much less problem than anywhere else in the world.... Good
luck!
Ivan
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
> I believe Ivan and I were talking about how effective the Bomboras
> and the Finks use of "lo-fi techniques" were. You know it almost
> enhances their guitar sounds, which really fits the mood it sounds
> like they were going for. That being said the drums are often
lost
> when recording or done in "lo-fi" Try grabbing some of the Finks
or
> early Bomboras for a great example.
Yeah, one point I made is that I had no idea what an incredibly
explosive drummer Dave Klein of the Bomboras was until they recorded
in hi-fi for their "It Came From Pier 13" CD - though I think the
mood on the early Bomboras releases is really cool, it definitely
does not lend itself to showcasing band members, except maybe the
lead guitarist.
> I also think the Phantom Surfers did some great lo-fi stuff,
Unlike the early Bomboras, where the lo-fi often enhanced the
overall mood of the songs, much of the Phantom Surfers just sounds
bad to my ears. It doesn't enhance, it distracts. My two cents...
> Also, another great point Ivan brough up, and I hope he chimes in
> was some of the great firstwave bands who recorded in such poor
> states of "lo-fi" it's almost a shame because we really don't get
> a great feel for what they sounded like. The Crossfires were the
> example.
I brought up the Crossfired because of one song in
particular: "Inferno". This is a great song, but recorded very
poorly (probably by the band in practice or something). Anyway, I
recently realized that you can't hear the drummers AT ALL on the
recording! You can hear the lead guitar very well, and the other
instruments poke through on occasion, but drums forget about it.
They may not have even recorded them! They have some stuff that was
recorded pretty well (relatiely speaking) like "Fiberglass Jungle"
and "Out Of Control", but not much. Most of that CD is lo-fi stuff
where you can't hear most of the instruments. It's too bad, cause
those guys were great musicians and I'd love to be able to hear
exactly what's going on there.
Ivan
> I brought up the Crossfired because of one song in
> particular: "Inferno". This is a great song, but recorded very
> poorly (probably by the band in practice or something). Anyway, I
> recently realized that you can't hear the drummers AT ALL on the
> recording! You can hear the lead guitar very well, and the other
> instruments poke through on occasion, but drums forget about it.
> They may not have even recorded them! They have some stuff that was
> recorded pretty well (relatiely speaking) like "Fiberglass Jungle"
> and "Out Of Control", but not much. Most of that CD is lo-fi stuff
> where you can't hear most of the instruments. It's too bad, cause
> those guys were great musicians and I'd love to be able to hear
> exactly what's going on there.
>
> Ivan
The Crossfires are always being ranked up there with some of the bands
I really like from that era, and when I finally did hear the
Crossfires I was slightly upset because of the quality(now I have to
go listen to it again, Ivan your constantly sending me back to my
record collection).
I agree with you on the Phantom Surfers. Some of their stuff is
really poorly recorded. But in some cases it enhances their sound.
The album they did with Los Tormentos sounds so GOOD, where as the
stuff on 18 Deadly Ones just doesn't sound as good, IMO. I haven't
experinced much with recording in lo-fi, but it seems almost like
there's some luck or magic involved in getting the "good" sound.
And about the guitar sounding good... I think there's something to be
said about a Fender guitar through a big Fender Amp with a Reverb Tank
recorded in Lo-Fi that sounds pretty good. I don't know if I'd say it
sounds BETTER than a Hi-Fir recording. But, sometimes the lo-fi works
as if it was a canvas for the older guitar tones.
Bill
www.reluctantaquanauts.com
