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First of all thanks to everyone for the encouraging words on the occassion
of this lists 1 year anniversary.
In hindsight I regret naming the list Surf Guitar 101, it should be Surf
Musician 101. Its not like we are a big enough group to segregate based upon
instrument. I've ammended the description on the Yahoo page to reflect this.
Which leads me to drummers. I'm really thrilled TooFastJim has chosen to
hang out here. I've got some drummer questions I thought I'd toss out for
you (or anyone else):
I really respect drummers and admire what they do (it seems impossible to
the non-player). What do you feel the drummer's role in a surf band should
be? Is it different than other genres?
Whats the worst thing a guitar player can do to a drummer when playing? Play
too loud? Play out of time?
Where do you stand on the whole "Wipeout" issue? I remember a thread on Cow.
or Reverborama where most bands poo-poo'ed the notion of playing it live. Is
it a drummer's signature song or a tired stereotype of the genre?
What are some of the best surf tunes for drummers?
Thanks!
BN
Shit! I thought this was a message board about MILF hunters worldwide - I
must be in the wrong place. Seriously, I would like to think and hope that
I'm not the only non-plank-plucker to hang out on this list. You don't have
to rename the thing, either - surf music is primarily a guitar-driven genre
anyway & getting the surf sound out of the guitar (strings, amps, speakers,
effects, microphones, tubes, tube mods, tolex, grill cloth - all that shite)
is of the utmost importance. It helps to have the right equipment (for all
musicians, not just guitar) but once you start recording, the results can
sound really good or really bad regardless of the instruments - its up to
the engineer to accurately capture the sound being produced by each
instrument - for most live surf gigs, you're on your own, so you better have
the equipment to get the sound you're looking for - or be prepared to get
pissed off and pout in the corner for a spell. Drums are pretty straight
forward - you put the head on the drum & tighten it. Just like the guitar,
there are certain heads & drum sizes to use to get the desired sound, but I
think there are more alternatives in the guitar world - although from an
aesthetic standpoint, if your guitar player is going to play with a vintage
(or vintage-looking) Mosrite or Jag (not Jagstang OR Jagmaster) through a
1965 Showman cabinet & matching 1965 blackface reverb tank, you may as well
throw down 3/4 of what he paid for the cabinet alone on a vintage drum kit
(prefereably in a sparkle or pearl wrap) to complete the whole retro/surf
stage presentation - the whole band just looks authentic when you do it that
way, but of course the sound has to come before all else.
And now to the Q & A portion of our programme:
> I really respect drummers and admire what they do (it seems impossible to
> the non-player). What do you feel the drummer's role in a surf band should
> be? Is it different than other genres?
The drummer's role in any band is to provide a foundation for the rhythm
section, upon which every other element of the music is based. If you don't
have solid drums, bass & preferably rhythm guitar laying it down,
everything on top of that, whether its a guitar melody line, organ solo or
even a vocal, will not sound as good (read: full) as it can. I think its
important for drummers in all genres not to overstep their bounds & start
crowding the lead instrument (or vocal if there is one) - then one becomes
less of a drummer & more of a wanker. For instro music, I view my role as
a beat-keeper, particularly in the traditional four-piece arrangement that I
am currently in. The same could be said for a five piece combo - factoring
in the sax, organ or 3rd guitar - the drummer's role should be that of a
beat-master, maybe throwing in some basic fills to transition from one
section to the next with the occasional 8 or 16 bar drum break in every 3rd
or 4th song. In a trio, its a little more difficult as there is a lot
more space to fill with fewer people to do it - usually it can involve one
single hyperactive guitar, too busy drums and/or an overplayed bass (if one
or two of those elements is grossly out of proportion with the rest, the
results could be less than gratifying). Slacktone would be the notable
exception to this - they seem very balanced - as active as Dusty is, their
recordings/performances never seem to favor one instrument - sure the drums
are busy, but because of what Meyer Wronski is doing, the whole mix doesn't
seem drum heavy. Conversely, as amazing as Dave Wronski is - the mix
doesn't sound guitar heavy because of what's going on behind the 1971 Ludwig
Blue Sparkles - and of course whether you're listening to Mike or Sam on
bass, they certainly contribute their 33.333% to the mix - again, the bass
doesn't overtake the performance, but at the same time, its the furthest
thing from a guitar and drum-dominated trio. Other trios augment their
recording sound with an extra instrument (Mark Brodie's various projects or
The Sir Finks come to mind) or sound effects & stuff (Destination Earth) &
that's all good, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a trio that can pull it off
as good as Slacktone. To get back to the question - in surf/instro music,
there is no vocal, so the drummer has a little more room to embellish, but
it should not be at the expense of the total band sound & particularly that
of the lead instrument - I like to play in and out of whatever phrases the
lead guy (or girl) is playing & just leave him be during the middle of it -
afterall - everyone's looking at the guitar player anyway, right?
> Whats the worst thing a guitar player can do to a drummer when playing?
Play
> too loud? Play out of time?
No and yes. If I'm behind my kit & all I hear is the lead guitar, is he
playing too loud?? Maybe... or maybe not. The mix may sound perfect out
front (which is all that really matters) but because of my proximity to the
other amps, my perception may be biased towards one instrument over the
rest. In my situation, I play off the bass & the lead guitar - I like to
hear the rhythm, too, & I think its essential to the overall instrumentation
of the band, but I only need to hear the bass to groove with and the lead
guitar to follow the changes. I can only assume that the rhythm guitar
player is doing his part (he usually is) and filling out the sound, but I
have enough problems holding onto two sticks and doing my own job. I would
rather the guitar is too loud than too soft - my hearing might come back
someday, but I rarely forgive myself if I screw something up because I can't
hear the guitar (god damn our verson of 3rd Star in Monterey to hell). And
yes, if someone goes out of time, especially the lead guitar player (or
worse yet, the drummer) then that's no fun. Hopefully 75% of the band will
be playing one way & the final fourth can find his way back into the folds &
recover. If two people go one way and the other two go another, then it
sounds like a wrestling match looks being filmed in the back of a panel van
travelling down Sunset Blvd. on a limited budget. To summarize, its a
clusterfuck, folks.
> Where do you stand on the whole "Wipeout" issue? I remember a thread on
Cow.
> or Reverborama where most bands poo-poo'ed the notion of playing it live.
Is
> it a drummer's signature song or a tired stereotype of the genre?
Well, "Wipeout" is a great example of good surf drums - the beat originated
as a cadence played by drummers in the school marching band - but there are
other good examples of surf drums too. I think because of the song's
overwhelming popularity, it has achieved novelty status, so its probably
common for cover bands to do it & say they do a surf tune & everyone will
like it. While its certainly Ron Wilson's signature song, I don't think it
has to be a drummer's signature song - at least in a modern surf band
setting. I mean, normal rock drummers will probably come across it at some
point in their development - figure out how to play it (which isn't that
hard) & be done with it. As a fan and player of the true surf/instro
music, I would join ranks with those that poo poo the notion of playing it
live - I would say the same thing of Pipeline (go ahead, castrate the
blasphemer) - I mean both songs are so well known (and so often covered)
that I don't need to hear either one again (live or covered). If you're in
a band & playing in a situation where playing those songs will get you more
money, or prevent rotten vegetables from being hurled at you, then by all
means play 'em. I just try and avoid those gigs if I can. Going back to
the previous question again, the absolute worse thing that can happen to a
drummer is when the guitar player goes out of time while you're playing one
of the above-mentioned standards under protest in public & the whole thing
becomes a debacle of mass proportions. So if you do decide to play Wipe
Out, make sure it sounds impeccable & that everyone in the band can play it
without a hitch - you don't want to be known as the surf band that can't
play Wipe Out correctly - especially when that may be the only song the
audience knows. I'll take Hal Blaine's performance on "K-39" or Mel
Taylor's "Caravan" solo from The Ventures 1965 Live in Japan over "Wipe
Out" any day.
> What are some of the best surf tunes for drummers?
To listen to or play? K-39 is just a masterpiece as far as a consistent
recording, stick control & dynamics are concerned. I listen to surf music
for the guitar sound (different textures & sounds, lead & rhythm interplay,
etc), so as long as the drummer is doing his/her job than I'm happy as a
listener. I really hate recordings where the guitar sound is great & the
drums sound like crap (or worse when they sound like crap and they're too
loud in the mix). Every drummer approaches a song differently, so some may
be more enjoyable for some than others - it all depends on the drummer.
Play any Straitjackets song & I'll like it because Jimmy Lester is an
awesome drummer as are so many others. There are so many 1st Wave songs
that feature good, yet simple & effective drums (Margaya by the Fender IV,
Exotic by The Sentinals, Time Bomb by The Avengers VI, Surf Party by The
Astronauts, Third Star from the Left by The Nocturnes, & of course The
Wedge). The best surf tunes to play for drummers are what the drummers
themselves make out of them. Personally I like playing all of the songs we
play (both originals and covers) because I can play almost whatever I want &
have a good time and not get in anyone else's way while doing it. I most
enjoy playing a basic surf beat & listening to whatever evil sounds are
coming out of the guitar amps with a big smile on my face - there is a
reason we wear dark pants in The Nebulas!
toofastjim
The Nebulas
www.thenebulas.com
Thanks for taking the time on that post TFJ...a very good read. Your advice
about "if you have to play Wipe Out, then know how to play Wipe Out" is well
taken. I would hate to be in the band that is known as "the surf band that
can't play Wipe Out".
BTW, are the Boss Martians worth seeing these days?
no problem - I have a lot of free time on my hands, among other things. I
think the Boss Martians are worth seeing - they put on a high energy rock
and roll show & Evan is a great guitar player. Don't expect to hear any
surf or any reverb, because you won't, but if you like their straight ahead
rock & roll as featured on "Move" and "Making The Rounds," then you'll
enjoy yourself. If you're lucky, Evan might take his '63 Jag out of its
case & put it on a stand behind his other backup guitar, but the 70s
distorted hollowbody sound is what you'll be hearing. Just don't ecpect
any Astronauts covers!
tfj
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Neal <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 5:07 PM
Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention TooFastJim)
> Thanks for taking the time on that post TFJ...a very good read. Your
advice
> about "if you have to play Wipe Out, then know how to play Wipe Out" is
well
> taken. I would hate to be in the band that is known as "the surf band that
> can't play Wipe Out".
>
> BTW, are the Boss Martians worth seeing these days?
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> .
> Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>
>
>
I think that what Jim was saying is that there are a lot of people-
drummers and guitarists- who may look down upon surf music as being so
simple, and feel that they are able to play the standards simply
because they have a heard the song in passing, but never really
studied. This is a huge error and immediately points out the punters
from the players. Little things like hitting the major 7 note in the
first line of Mierlou, or playing the 2 minute version of Pipelne and
resisting the temptation to jam on it for 5 minutes. Or, yes, when a
drummer overplays in Wipeout.
The Boss Martians are definitely worth seeing, though they have nothing
to do with surf.
ferenc
--- In SurfGuitar101@y..., "Brian Neal" <bneal@z...> wrote:
> Thanks for taking the time on that post TFJ...a very good read. Your advice
> about "if you have to play Wipe Out, then know how to play Wipe Out" is well
> taken. I would hate to be in the band that is known as "the surf band that
> can't play Wipe Out".
>
> BTW, are the Boss Martians worth seeing these days?
great post from the man with the oval bassdrum!
no, i'm not a drummer, and yes, drums is a key-ingredient in surf. Drummer
and lead guitarist are on a shared 1st place when it comes to 'not allowed
to screw up'. Really, the bass and the rythm guitar can miss a not or a
chord every now and then (not saying they should, though), but a fuck up by
the drummer will be immediatly noticed. respect for all the drummers.
i like my surf drums to have a jazzy sound, a little back in the mix, very
dynamical and simple. Do all P.A.-people in general have a problem with
drummers that don't hit the kit as hard as they can?? Oh, and please no
compressors/gates on the drums!! Slacktone is the example to the rule, of
course, and obviously being a three-piece leaves much more room to the
drummer.
Good to point out the caravan-solo, but uhhh, isn't he playing bass there
too?
wannes
PS, your comment about pipeline, how about that version with steve ray
vaughn????
>From: "toofastjim" <>
>Reply-To:
>To: <>
>Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
>TooFastJim)
>Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:16:39 -0500
>
>Shit! I thought this was a message board about MILF hunters worldwide - I
>must be in the wrong place. Seriously, I would like to think and hope that
>I'm not the only non-plank-plucker to hang out on this list. You don't
>have
>to rename the thing, either - surf music is primarily a guitar-driven genre
>anyway & getting the surf sound out of the guitar (strings, amps, speakers,
>effects, microphones, tubes, tube mods, tolex, grill cloth - all that
>shite)
>is of the utmost importance. It helps to have the right equipment (for all
>musicians, not just guitar) but once you start recording, the results can
>sound really good or really bad regardless of the instruments - its up to
>the engineer to accurately capture the sound being produced by each
>instrument - for most live surf gigs, you're on your own, so you better
>have
>the equipment to get the sound you're looking for - or be prepared to get
>pissed off and pout in the corner for a spell. Drums are pretty straight
>forward - you put the head on the drum & tighten it. Just like the guitar,
>there are certain heads & drum sizes to use to get the desired sound, but I
>think there are more alternatives in the guitar world - although from an
>aesthetic standpoint, if your guitar player is going to play with a vintage
>(or vintage-looking) Mosrite or Jag (not Jagstang OR Jagmaster) through a
>1965 Showman cabinet & matching 1965 blackface reverb tank, you may as
>well
>throw down 3/4 of what he paid for the cabinet alone on a vintage drum kit
>(prefereably in a sparkle or pearl wrap) to complete the whole retro/surf
>stage presentation - the whole band just looks authentic when you do it
>that
>way, but of course the sound has to come before all else.
>
>And now to the Q & A portion of our programme:
>
> > I really respect drummers and admire what they do (it seems impossible
>to
> > the non-player). What do you feel the drummer's role in a surf band
>should
> > be? Is it different than other genres?
>
>The drummer's role in any band is to provide a foundation for the rhythm
>section, upon which every other element of the music is based. If you
>don't
>have solid drums, bass & preferably rhythm guitar laying it down,
>everything on top of that, whether its a guitar melody line, organ solo or
>even a vocal, will not sound as good (read: full) as it can. I think its
>important for drummers in all genres not to overstep their bounds & start
>crowding the lead instrument (or vocal if there is one) - then one becomes
>less of a drummer & more of a wanker. For instro music, I view my role as
>a beat-keeper, particularly in the traditional four-piece arrangement that
>I
>am currently in. The same could be said for a five piece combo - factoring
>in the sax, organ or 3rd guitar - the drummer's role should be that of a
>beat-master, maybe throwing in some basic fills to transition from one
>section to the next with the occasional 8 or 16 bar drum break in every 3rd
>or 4th song. In a trio, its a little more difficult as there is a lot
>more space to fill with fewer people to do it - usually it can involve one
>single hyperactive guitar, too busy drums and/or an overplayed bass (if one
>or two of those elements is grossly out of proportion with the rest, the
>results could be less than gratifying). Slacktone would be the notable
>exception to this - they seem very balanced - as active as Dusty is, their
>recordings/performances never seem to favor one instrument - sure the drums
>are busy, but because of what Meyer Wronski is doing, the whole mix doesn't
>seem drum heavy. Conversely, as amazing as Dave Wronski is - the mix
>doesn't sound guitar heavy because of what's going on behind the 1971
>Ludwig
>Blue Sparkles - and of course whether you're listening to Mike or Sam on
>bass, they certainly contribute their 33.333% to the mix - again, the bass
>doesn't overtake the performance, but at the same time, its the furthest
>thing from a guitar and drum-dominated trio. Other trios augment their
>recording sound with an extra instrument (Mark Brodie's various projects or
>The Sir Finks come to mind) or sound effects & stuff (Destination Earth) &
>that's all good, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a trio that can pull it
>off
>as good as Slacktone. To get back to the question - in surf/instro music,
>there is no vocal, so the drummer has a little more room to embellish, but
>it should not be at the expense of the total band sound & particularly that
>of the lead instrument - I like to play in and out of whatever phrases the
>lead guy (or girl) is playing & just leave him be during the middle of it -
>afterall - everyone's looking at the guitar player anyway, right?
>
>
> > Whats the worst thing a guitar player can do to a drummer when playing?
>Play
> > too loud? Play out of time?
>
>No and yes. If I'm behind my kit & all I hear is the lead guitar, is he
>playing too loud?? Maybe... or maybe not. The mix may sound perfect out
>front (which is all that really matters) but because of my proximity to the
>other amps, my perception may be biased towards one instrument over the
>rest. In my situation, I play off the bass & the lead guitar - I like to
>hear the rhythm, too, & I think its essential to the overall
>instrumentation
>of the band, but I only need to hear the bass to groove with and the lead
>guitar to follow the changes. I can only assume that the rhythm guitar
>player is doing his part (he usually is) and filling out the sound, but I
>have enough problems holding onto two sticks and doing my own job. I would
>rather the guitar is too loud than too soft - my hearing might come back
>someday, but I rarely forgive myself if I screw something up because I
>can't
>hear the guitar (god damn our verson of 3rd Star in Monterey to hell). And
>yes, if someone goes out of time, especially the lead guitar player (or
>worse yet, the drummer) then that's no fun. Hopefully 75% of the band will
>be playing one way & the final fourth can find his way back into the folds
>&
>recover. If two people go one way and the other two go another, then it
>sounds like a wrestling match looks being filmed in the back of a panel van
>travelling down Sunset Blvd. on a limited budget. To summarize, its a
>clusterfuck, folks.
>
> > Where do you stand on the whole "Wipeout" issue? I remember a thread on
>Cow.
> > or Reverborama where most bands poo-poo'ed the notion of playing it
>live.
>Is
> > it a drummer's signature song or a tired stereotype of the genre?
>
>Well, "Wipeout" is a great example of good surf drums - the beat originated
>as a cadence played by drummers in the school marching band - but there are
>other good examples of surf drums too. I think because of the song's
>overwhelming popularity, it has achieved novelty status, so its probably
>common for cover bands to do it & say they do a surf tune & everyone will
>like it. While its certainly Ron Wilson's signature song, I don't think it
>has to be a drummer's signature song - at least in a modern surf band
>setting. I mean, normal rock drummers will probably come across it at
>some
>point in their development - figure out how to play it (which isn't that
>hard) & be done with it. As a fan and player of the true surf/instro
>music, I would join ranks with those that poo poo the notion of playing it
>live - I would say the same thing of Pipeline (go ahead, castrate the
>blasphemer) - I mean both songs are so well known (and so often covered)
>that I don't need to hear either one again (live or covered). If you're in
>a band & playing in a situation where playing those songs will get you more
>money, or prevent rotten vegetables from being hurled at you, then by all
>means play 'em. I just try and avoid those gigs if I can. Going back to
>the previous question again, the absolute worse thing that can happen to a
>drummer is when the guitar player goes out of time while you're playing one
>of the above-mentioned standards under protest in public & the whole thing
>becomes a debacle of mass proportions. So if you do decide to play Wipe
>Out, make sure it sounds impeccable & that everyone in the band can play it
>without a hitch - you don't want to be known as the surf band that can't
>play Wipe Out correctly - especially when that may be the only song the
>audience knows. I'll take Hal Blaine's performance on "K-39" or Mel
>Taylor's "Caravan" solo from The Ventures 1965 Live in Japan over "Wipe
>Out" any day.
>
> > What are some of the best surf tunes for drummers?
>
>To listen to or play? K-39 is just a masterpiece as far as a consistent
>recording, stick control & dynamics are concerned. I listen to surf music
>for the guitar sound (different textures & sounds, lead & rhythm interplay,
>etc), so as long as the drummer is doing his/her job than I'm happy as a
>listener. I really hate recordings where the guitar sound is great & the
>drums sound like crap (or worse when they sound like crap and they're too
>loud in the mix). Every drummer approaches a song differently, so some may
>be more enjoyable for some than others - it all depends on the drummer.
>Play any Straitjackets song & I'll like it because Jimmy Lester is an
>awesome drummer as are so many others. There are so many 1st Wave songs
>that feature good, yet simple & effective drums (Margaya by the Fender IV,
>Exotic by The Sentinals, Time Bomb by The Avengers VI, Surf Party by The
>Astronauts, Third Star from the Left by The Nocturnes, & of course The
>Wedge). The best surf tunes to play for drummers are what the drummers
>themselves make out of them. Personally I like playing all of the songs we
>play (both originals and covers) because I can play almost whatever I want
>&
>have a good time and not get in anyone else's way while doing it. I most
>enjoy playing a basic surf beat & listening to whatever evil sounds are
>coming out of the guitar amps with a big smile on my face - there is a
>reason we wear dark pants in The Nebulas!
>
>toofastjim
>The Nebulas
>
>www.thenebulas.com
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Its always best when no one screws up, but you are right in that lead guitar
and drum mistakes are usually noticed the most.
I like surf drums when they're tuned jazzy (ie, somewhat high pitched with a
lot of ring) - the rest of the band noise usually absorbs the ringing of the
drums & it sounds good most of the time - I also don't lke too much kick
drum in the mix - less kick puts more emphasis on the back beat, but again
just my opinion. I actually prefer playing smaller rooms - takes the whole
PA guy issue out of the picture & then the drums (and everything else) are
only as loud as you play 'em. Hopefully when there is a sound guy, he puts
me in the proper place in the mix & lets everything else be heard,
especially the lead guitar. If the kit is miked, it shouldn't matter how
hard you hit the drums, but if you're lucky enough to get a sound check,
make sure you hit the drums then as loud as you will when you start the
show - or else the drum mikes will start clipping & distorting. I remember
Rip from the Penetrators posting something awhile ago stating that they
would bring a tip sheet for an uninitiated sound guy telling him how to mix
the band. I would like to think we make it easy for sound guys because we
don't have any vocals & don't talk too much (at our Halloween show, we
didn't say one word - the front line just pointed to The Nebulas logo on my
bass drum & then held up signs that said CDs $10 / Buy or Die).
I guess I hit the drums fairly hard, but I use light sticks, but if the
music requires a certain degree of intensity (hard & fast), then I aims to
deliver. Speaking of hard-hitters, Dusty makes me sound like I'm using
brushes - although I don't think he plays too loud given who he's playing
with. He can play quiet, though - I've heard him. (listen to The New
Relampagos) - so its important to be able to play quiet if the song (or song
part) calls for it - its all about dynamics. And Birdstuff is no subdued
jazz tapper, either - he plays hard and mean. This is not the same as
having to play your hard and fast stuff real quiet because you booked
yourself into a room suited for string quartets and acoustic duos & volume -
that's no fun - the band rarely enjoys it because they have to hold back &
the audience gets ripped off because they only hear a 4 cylinder version of
an 8 cylinder song. That's why we have demo CDs for booking - if you think
aggressive surf music played with big amps (or more recently with really
loud little ones) will be too loud for your bar - don't book us. So far, we
haven't had any volume complaints from any establishments we've played &
usually don't play louder than the other bands on the bill.
The Live in Japan Caravan solo starts out with all drums for a while,
reaches a crescendo & then the bass guitar comes in - Mel may even be
hitting the strings with a stick while Bob fingers the fret board (I'll have
to refer to my video copy of the performance to be sure), but the bass notes
sound very percussive and this was long before Tony Levin started using his
little finger sticks. Anyhoo, after the bass bit, the drums solo alone
again for a while before the whole band comes back in. Drum solos over
bass or guitar vamps sound fine too - listen to Satan's Pilgims version of
"Casbah" & you'll find Johnny playing away while Teddy solos over the top.
The point is, its still more interesting than Wipe Out.
I have no problem with the SRV/dd version of Pipleine - it helped bring surf
briefly back into mainstream rock & illustrated that it was an influence
among many guitar players. It also gave dd some more exposure, too. Its
ok for a bar band to play that (or Wipeout) as their token surf song, but I
think what I was trying say in my previous rants was if I'm going to see a
surf band play surf/instro all night, I would rather they skipped those two
(and a few others) and play their originals or obscure, less-covered covers.
Just don't ask me about Gary Hoey and the rest of the Endless Summer II
soundtrack - it may be technically proficient, but not my cup of tea.
toofastjim
The Nebulas
www.thenebulas.com
PS - the opions stated above are just mine & shouldn't be taken too
seriously - if you're a drummer who likes to use thick heads with oil
between the plies and then still muffle whatever life they may have had out
of them - go for it. As long as it results in the sound you're trying to
achieve - and your band is happy with it. Fortunately, I'm in a band whose
members notice (and actively point out with disapproval) when I throw
something other than a single ply coated white head on a drum - I appreciate
the fact they care about such things - especially because they're right - it
was just a test to see if they were listening. Likewise, I like it when
they use 11s because they don't break as much as the 10s & string snapping
is something everyone notices.
----- Original Message -----
From: rock verb <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention TooFastJim)
> great post from the man with the oval bassdrum!
>
> no, i'm not a drummer, and yes, drums is a key-ingredient in surf. Drummer
> and lead guitarist are on a shared 1st place when it comes to 'not allowed
> to screw up'. Really, the bass and the rythm guitar can miss a not or a
> chord every now and then (not saying they should, though), but a fuck up
by
> the drummer will be immediatly noticed. respect for all the drummers.
>
> i like my surf drums to have a jazzy sound, a little back in the mix,
very
> dynamical and simple. Do all P.A.-people in general have a problem with
> drummers that don't hit the kit as hard as they can?? Oh, and please no
> compressors/gates on the drums!! Slacktone is the example to the rule, of
> course, and obviously being a three-piece leaves much more room to the
> drummer.
>
> Good to point out the caravan-solo, but uhhh, isn't he playing bass there
> too?
>
> wannes
>
> PS, your comment about pipeline, how about that version with steve ray
> vaughn????
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "toofastjim" <>
> >Reply-To:
> >To: <>
> >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> >TooFastJim)
> >Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:16:39 -0500
> >
> >Shit! I thought this was a message board about MILF hunters worldwide -
I
> >must be in the wrong place. Seriously, I would like to think and hope
that
> >I'm not the only non-plank-plucker to hang out on this list. You don't
> >have
> >to rename the thing, either - surf music is primarily a guitar-driven
genre
> >anyway & getting the surf sound out of the guitar (strings, amps,
speakers,
> >effects, microphones, tubes, tube mods, tolex, grill cloth - all that
> >shite)
> >is of the utmost importance. It helps to have the right equipment (for
all
> >musicians, not just guitar) but once you start recording, the results can
> >sound really good or really bad regardless of the instruments - its up to
> >the engineer to accurately capture the sound being produced by each
> >instrument - for most live surf gigs, you're on your own, so you better
> >have
> >the equipment to get the sound you're looking for - or be prepared to get
> >pissed off and pout in the corner for a spell. Drums are pretty straight
> >forward - you put the head on the drum & tighten it. Just like the
guitar,
> >there are certain heads & drum sizes to use to get the desired sound, but
I
> >think there are more alternatives in the guitar world - although from an
> >aesthetic standpoint, if your guitar player is going to play with a
vintage
> >(or vintage-looking) Mosrite or Jag (not Jagstang OR Jagmaster) through
a
> >1965 Showman cabinet & matching 1965 blackface reverb tank, you may as
> >well
> >throw down 3/4 of what he paid for the cabinet alone on a vintage drum
kit
> >(prefereably in a sparkle or pearl wrap) to complete the whole retro/surf
> >stage presentation - the whole band just looks authentic when you do it
> >that
> >way, but of course the sound has to come before all else.
> >
> >And now to the Q & A portion of our programme:
> >
> > > I really respect drummers and admire what they do (it seems impossible
> >to
> > > the non-player). What do you feel the drummer's role in a surf band
> >should
> > > be? Is it different than other genres?
> >
> >The drummer's role in any band is to provide a foundation for the rhythm
> >section, upon which every other element of the music is based. If you
> >don't
> >have solid drums, bass & preferably rhythm guitar laying it down,
> >everything on top of that, whether its a guitar melody line, organ solo
or
> >even a vocal, will not sound as good (read: full) as it can. I think
its
> >important for drummers in all genres not to overstep their bounds & start
> >crowding the lead instrument (or vocal if there is one) - then one
becomes
> >less of a drummer & more of a wanker. For instro music, I view my role
as
> >a beat-keeper, particularly in the traditional four-piece arrangement
that
> >I
> >am currently in. The same could be said for a five piece combo -
factoring
> >in the sax, organ or 3rd guitar - the drummer's role should be that of a
> >beat-master, maybe throwing in some basic fills to transition from one
> >section to the next with the occasional 8 or 16 bar drum break in every
3rd
> >or 4th song. In a trio, its a little more difficult as there is a lot
> >more space to fill with fewer people to do it - usually it can involve
one
> >single hyperactive guitar, too busy drums and/or an overplayed bass (if
one
> >or two of those elements is grossly out of proportion with the rest, the
> >results could be less than gratifying). Slacktone would be the notable
> >exception to this - they seem very balanced - as active as Dusty is,
their
> >recordings/performances never seem to favor one instrument - sure the
drums
> >are busy, but because of what Meyer Wronski is doing, the whole mix
doesn't
> >seem drum heavy. Conversely, as amazing as Dave Wronski is - the mix
> >doesn't sound guitar heavy because of what's going on behind the 1971
> >Ludwig
> >Blue Sparkles - and of course whether you're listening to Mike or Sam on
> >bass, they certainly contribute their 33.333% to the mix - again, the
bass
> >doesn't overtake the performance, but at the same time, its the furthest
> >thing from a guitar and drum-dominated trio. Other trios augment their
> >recording sound with an extra instrument (Mark Brodie's various projects
or
> >The Sir Finks come to mind) or sound effects & stuff (Destination Earth)
&
> >that's all good, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a trio that can pull it
> >off
> >as good as Slacktone. To get back to the question - in surf/instro
music,
> >there is no vocal, so the drummer has a little more room to embellish,
but
> >it should not be at the expense of the total band sound & particularly
that
> >of the lead instrument - I like to play in and out of whatever phrases
the
> >lead guy (or girl) is playing & just leave him be during the middle of
it -
> >afterall - everyone's looking at the guitar player anyway, right?
> >
> >
> > > Whats the worst thing a guitar player can do to a drummer when
playing?
> >Play
> > > too loud? Play out of time?
> >
> >No and yes. If I'm behind my kit & all I hear is the lead guitar, is he
> >playing too loud?? Maybe... or maybe not. The mix may sound perfect
out
> >front (which is all that really matters) but because of my proximity to
the
> >other amps, my perception may be biased towards one instrument over the
> >rest. In my situation, I play off the bass & the lead guitar - I like to
> >hear the rhythm, too, & I think its essential to the overall
> >instrumentation
> >of the band, but I only need to hear the bass to groove with and the lead
> >guitar to follow the changes. I can only assume that the rhythm guitar
> >player is doing his part (he usually is) and filling out the sound, but I
> >have enough problems holding onto two sticks and doing my own job. I
would
> >rather the guitar is too loud than too soft - my hearing might come back
> >someday, but I rarely forgive myself if I screw something up because I
> >can't
> >hear the guitar (god damn our verson of 3rd Star in Monterey to hell).
And
> >yes, if someone goes out of time, especially the lead guitar player (or
> >worse yet, the drummer) then that's no fun. Hopefully 75% of the band
will
> >be playing one way & the final fourth can find his way back into the
folds
> >&
> >recover. If two people go one way and the other two go another, then it
> >sounds like a wrestling match looks being filmed in the back of a panel
van
> >travelling down Sunset Blvd. on a limited budget. To summarize, its a
> >clusterfuck, folks.
> >
> > > Where do you stand on the whole "Wipeout" issue? I remember a thread
on
> >Cow.
> > > or Reverborama where most bands poo-poo'ed the notion of playing it
> >live.
> >Is
> > > it a drummer's signature song or a tired stereotype of the genre?
> >
> >Well, "Wipeout" is a great example of good surf drums - the beat
originated
> >as a cadence played by drummers in the school marching band - but there
are
> >other good examples of surf drums too. I think because of the song's
> >overwhelming popularity, it has achieved novelty status, so its probably
> >common for cover bands to do it & say they do a surf tune & everyone will
> >like it. While its certainly Ron Wilson's signature song, I don't think
it
> >has to be a drummer's signature song - at least in a modern surf band
> >setting. I mean, normal rock drummers will probably come across it at
> >some
> >point in their development - figure out how to play it (which isn't that
> >hard) & be done with it. As a fan and player of the true surf/instro
> >music, I would join ranks with those that poo poo the notion of playing
it
> >live - I would say the same thing of Pipeline (go ahead, castrate the
> >blasphemer) - I mean both songs are so well known (and so often covered)
> >that I don't need to hear either one again (live or covered). If you're
in
> >a band & playing in a situation where playing those songs will get you
more
> >money, or prevent rotten vegetables from being hurled at you, then by all
> >means play 'em. I just try and avoid those gigs if I can. Going back to
> >the previous question again, the absolute worse thing that can happen to
a
> >drummer is when the guitar player goes out of time while you're playing
one
> >of the above-mentioned standards under protest in public & the whole
thing
> >becomes a debacle of mass proportions. So if you do decide to play Wipe
> >Out, make sure it sounds impeccable & that everyone in the band can play
it
> >without a hitch - you don't want to be known as the surf band that can't
> >play Wipe Out correctly - especially when that may be the only song the
> >audience knows. I'll take Hal Blaine's performance on "K-39" or Mel
> >Taylor's "Caravan" solo from The Ventures 1965 Live in Japan over "Wipe
> >Out" any day.
> >
> > > What are some of the best surf tunes for drummers?
> >
> >To listen to or play? K-39 is just a masterpiece as far as a consistent
> >recording, stick control & dynamics are concerned. I listen to surf
music
> >for the guitar sound (different textures & sounds, lead & rhythm
interplay,
> >etc), so as long as the drummer is doing his/her job than I'm happy as a
> >listener. I really hate recordings where the guitar sound is great & the
> >drums sound like crap (or worse when they sound like crap and they're too
> >loud in the mix). Every drummer approaches a song differently, so some
may
> >be more enjoyable for some than others - it all depends on the drummer.
> >Play any Straitjackets song & I'll like it because Jimmy Lester is an
> >awesome drummer as are so many others. There are so many 1st Wave songs
> >that feature good, yet simple & effective drums (Margaya by the Fender
IV,
> >Exotic by The Sentinals, Time Bomb by The Avengers VI, Surf Party by The
> >Astronauts, Third Star from the Left by The Nocturnes, & of course The
> >Wedge). The best surf tunes to play for drummers are what the drummers
> >themselves make out of them. Personally I like playing all of the songs
we
> >play (both originals and covers) because I can play almost whatever I
want
> >&
> >have a good time and not get in anyone else's way while doing it. I most
> >enjoy playing a basic surf beat & listening to whatever evil sounds are
> >coming out of the guitar amps with a big smile on my face - there is a
> >reason we wear dark pants in The Nebulas!
> >
> >toofastjim
> >The Nebulas
> >
> >www.thenebulas.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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--- In SurfGuitar101@y..., "toofastjim" <toofastjim@e...> wrote:
> Its always best when no one screws up, but you are right in that
lead guitar
> and drum mistakes are usually noticed the most.
>
Play that mistake twice, and folks think ya meant to do it.... ;-)
Mike/USK
Jeez, Jim, you're on a roll....five more posts and you'll have a book to
publish!
good thing you started this thread, it's nioce to find that there's more
musicians with an interest broader then their own instrument. Bandmembers'
inetrest in eachothers sound, parts and the overall sound can be a major
contribution toi the band. and it's lots of fun.
in my former band i used to play an A-flat solo over an A song, just to
check whether anyone was listining. it usually went unnoticed. and about
the PA, don't know how it is in the States, here in Holland bands tend to
play in so-called youth-centres, and they all have (crappy) PA's. most bars
have one too. Our drummer playes relatively soft, back then with 7A
sticks.... And really, always the PA guy would be complaining he had to hit
harder, because it couldn't be amplified. but this is how hard he hits!!! I
don't know what it is, bad mics, bad amp, but somehow it just never worked.
sorry, my little frustration.
Dusty, in my humble opinion, is not really a surf-drummer -ouch, don't kill
me (maybe he is, but he doesn't play surf-drums, is what i mean). He is a
fantastic rock-drummer, and the greatness of both Slacktone and the recent
DD is that they somehow bring the different styles they play together
perfectly. Thus awesome in a three piece innovative surf band.... in a
trad-style four-piece, i don't know... doesn't he play with Jon and the
nightriders? how is he there? (sorry, i bought one LP of them, but gave it
away since i didn't have a record player) just my two cents...
anyway, keep posting about drums
wannes
i read you on dd/srv. still think that SRV should have stuck to blues-rock.
think he should have left that helicopter ride to Clapton too. Think it was
sabotaged? think they were after Clapton? Don't you love
conspieracy-theories?
>From: "toofastjim" <>
>Reply-To:
>To: <>
>Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
>TooFastJim)
>Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:45:25 -0500
>
>Its always best when no one screws up, but you are right in that lead
>guitar
>and drum mistakes are usually noticed the most.
>
>I like surf drums when they're tuned jazzy (ie, somewhat high pitched with
>a
>lot of ring) - the rest of the band noise usually absorbs the ringing of
>the
>drums & it sounds good most of the time - I also don't lke too much kick
>drum in the mix - less kick puts more emphasis on the back beat, but again
>just my opinion. I actually prefer playing smaller rooms - takes the whole
>PA guy issue out of the picture & then the drums (and everything else) are
>only as loud as you play 'em. Hopefully when there is a sound guy, he puts
>me in the proper place in the mix & lets everything else be heard,
>especially the lead guitar. If the kit is miked, it shouldn't matter how
>hard you hit the drums, but if you're lucky enough to get a sound check,
>make sure you hit the drums then as loud as you will when you start the
>show - or else the drum mikes will start clipping & distorting. I remember
>Rip from the Penetrators posting something awhile ago stating that they
>would bring a tip sheet for an uninitiated sound guy telling him how to mix
>the band. I would like to think we make it easy for sound guys because we
>don't have any vocals & don't talk too much (at our Halloween show, we
>didn't say one word - the front line just pointed to The Nebulas logo on my
>bass drum & then held up signs that said CDs $10 / Buy or Die).
>
>I guess I hit the drums fairly hard, but I use light sticks, but if the
>music requires a certain degree of intensity (hard & fast), then I aims to
>deliver. Speaking of hard-hitters, Dusty makes me sound like I'm using
>brushes - although I don't think he plays too loud given who he's playing
>with. He can play quiet, though - I've heard him. (listen to The New
>Relampagos) - so its important to be able to play quiet if the song (or
>song
>part) calls for it - its all about dynamics. And Birdstuff is no subdued
>jazz tapper, either - he plays hard and mean. This is not the same as
>having to play your hard and fast stuff real quiet because you booked
>yourself into a room suited for string quartets and acoustic duos & volume
>-
>that's no fun - the band rarely enjoys it because they have to hold back &
>the audience gets ripped off because they only hear a 4 cylinder version of
>an 8 cylinder song. That's why we have demo CDs for booking - if you
>think
>aggressive surf music played with big amps (or more recently with really
>loud little ones) will be too loud for your bar - don't book us. So far,
>we
>haven't had any volume complaints from any establishments we've played &
>usually don't play louder than the other bands on the bill.
>
>The Live in Japan Caravan solo starts out with all drums for a while,
>reaches a crescendo & then the bass guitar comes in - Mel may even be
>hitting the strings with a stick while Bob fingers the fret board (I'll
>have
>to refer to my video copy of the performance to be sure), but the bass
>notes
>sound very percussive and this was long before Tony Levin started using his
>little finger sticks. Anyhoo, after the bass bit, the drums solo alone
>again for a while before the whole band comes back in. Drum solos over
>bass or guitar vamps sound fine too - listen to Satan's Pilgims version of
>"Casbah" & you'll find Johnny playing away while Teddy solos over the top.
>The point is, its still more interesting than Wipe Out.
>
>I have no problem with the SRV/dd version of Pipleine - it helped bring
>surf
>briefly back into mainstream rock & illustrated that it was an influence
>among many guitar players. It also gave dd some more exposure, too. Its
>ok for a bar band to play that (or Wipeout) as their token surf song, but I
>think what I was trying say in my previous rants was if I'm going to see a
>surf band play surf/instro all night, I would rather they skipped those two
>(and a few others) and play their originals or obscure, less-covered
>covers.
>Just don't ask me about Gary Hoey and the rest of the Endless Summer II
>soundtrack - it may be technically proficient, but not my cup of tea.
>
>toofastjim
>The Nebulas
>
>www.thenebulas.com
>
>
>PS - the opions stated above are just mine & shouldn't be taken too
>seriously - if you're a drummer who likes to use thick heads with oil
>between the plies and then still muffle whatever life they may have had out
>of them - go for it. As long as it results in the sound you're trying to
>achieve - and your band is happy with it. Fortunately, I'm in a band
>whose
>members notice (and actively point out with disapproval) when I throw
>something other than a single ply coated white head on a drum - I
>appreciate
>the fact they care about such things - especially because they're right -
>it
>was just a test to see if they were listening. Likewise, I like it when
>they use 11s because they don't break as much as the 10s & string snapping
>is something everyone notices.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: rock verb <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:34 AM
>Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
>TooFastJim)
>
>
> > great post from the man with the oval bassdrum!
> >
> > no, i'm not a drummer, and yes, drums is a key-ingredient in surf.
>Drummer
> > and lead guitarist are on a shared 1st place when it comes to 'not
>allowed
> > to screw up'. Really, the bass and the rythm guitar can miss a not or a
> > chord every now and then (not saying they should, though), but a fuck up
>by
> > the drummer will be immediatly noticed. respect for all the drummers.
> >
> > i like my surf drums to have a jazzy sound, a little back in the mix,
>very
> > dynamical and simple. Do all P.A.-people in general have a problem with
> > drummers that don't hit the kit as hard as they can?? Oh, and please no
> > compressors/gates on the drums!! Slacktone is the example to the rule,
>of
> > course, and obviously being a three-piece leaves much more room to the
> > drummer.
> >
> > Good to point out the caravan-solo, but uhhh, isn't he playing bass
>there
> > too?
> >
> > wannes
> >
> > PS, your comment about pipeline, how about that version with steve ray
> > vaughn????
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "toofastjim" <>
> > >Reply-To:
> > >To: <>
> > >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> > >TooFastJim)
> > >Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:16:39 -0500
> > >
> > >Shit! I thought this was a message board about MILF hunters worldwide
>-
>I
> > >must be in the wrong place. Seriously, I would like to think and hope
>that
> > >I'm not the only non-plank-plucker to hang out on this list. You don't
> > >have
> > >to rename the thing, either - surf music is primarily a guitar-driven
>genre
> > >anyway & getting the surf sound out of the guitar (strings, amps,
>speakers,
> > >effects, microphones, tubes, tube mods, tolex, grill cloth - all that
> > >shite)
> > >is of the utmost importance. It helps to have the right equipment (for
>all
> > >musicians, not just guitar) but once you start recording, the results
>can
> > >sound really good or really bad regardless of the instruments - its up
>to
> > >the engineer to accurately capture the sound being produced by each
> > >instrument - for most live surf gigs, you're on your own, so you better
> > >have
> > >the equipment to get the sound you're looking for - or be prepared to
>get
> > >pissed off and pout in the corner for a spell. Drums are pretty
>straight
> > >forward - you put the head on the drum & tighten it. Just like the
>guitar,
> > >there are certain heads & drum sizes to use to get the desired sound,
>but
>I
> > >think there are more alternatives in the guitar world - although from
>an
> > >aesthetic standpoint, if your guitar player is going to play with a
>vintage
> > >(or vintage-looking) Mosrite or Jag (not Jagstang OR Jagmaster)
>through
>a
> > >1965 Showman cabinet & matching 1965 blackface reverb tank, you may as
> > >well
> > >throw down 3/4 of what he paid for the cabinet alone on a vintage drum
>kit
> > >(prefereably in a sparkle or pearl wrap) to complete the whole
>retro/surf
> > >stage presentation - the whole band just looks authentic when you do it
> > >that
> > >way, but of course the sound has to come before all else.
> > >
> > >And now to the Q & A portion of our programme:
> > >
> > > > I really respect drummers and admire what they do (it seems
>impossible
> > >to
> > > > the non-player). What do you feel the drummer's role in a surf band
> > >should
> > > > be? Is it different than other genres?
> > >
> > >The drummer's role in any band is to provide a foundation for the
>rhythm
> > >section, upon which every other element of the music is based. If you
> > >don't
> > >have solid drums, bass & preferably rhythm guitar laying it down,
> > >everything on top of that, whether its a guitar melody line, organ solo
>or
> > >even a vocal, will not sound as good (read: full) as it can. I think
>its
> > >important for drummers in all genres not to overstep their bounds &
>start
> > >crowding the lead instrument (or vocal if there is one) - then one
>becomes
> > >less of a drummer & more of a wanker. For instro music, I view my
>role
>as
> > >a beat-keeper, particularly in the traditional four-piece arrangement
>that
> > >I
> > >am currently in. The same could be said for a five piece combo -
>factoring
> > >in the sax, organ or 3rd guitar - the drummer's role should be that of
>a
> > >beat-master, maybe throwing in some basic fills to transition from one
> > >section to the next with the occasional 8 or 16 bar drum break in every
>3rd
> > >or 4th song. In a trio, its a little more difficult as there is a
>lot
> > >more space to fill with fewer people to do it - usually it can involve
>one
> > >single hyperactive guitar, too busy drums and/or an overplayed bass (if
>one
> > >or two of those elements is grossly out of proportion with the rest,
>the
> > >results could be less than gratifying). Slacktone would be the notable
> > >exception to this - they seem very balanced - as active as Dusty is,
>their
> > >recordings/performances never seem to favor one instrument - sure the
>drums
> > >are busy, but because of what Meyer Wronski is doing, the whole mix
>doesn't
> > >seem drum heavy. Conversely, as amazing as Dave Wronski is - the mix
> > >doesn't sound guitar heavy because of what's going on behind the 1971
> > >Ludwig
> > >Blue Sparkles - and of course whether you're listening to Mike or Sam
>on
> > >bass, they certainly contribute their 33.333% to the mix - again, the
>bass
> > >doesn't overtake the performance, but at the same time, its the
>furthest
> > >thing from a guitar and drum-dominated trio. Other trios augment their
> > >recording sound with an extra instrument (Mark Brodie's various
>projects
>or
> > >The Sir Finks come to mind) or sound effects & stuff (Destination
>Earth)
>&
> > >that's all good, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a trio that can pull
>it
> > >off
> > >as good as Slacktone. To get back to the question - in surf/instro
>music,
> > >there is no vocal, so the drummer has a little more room to embellish,
>but
> > >it should not be at the expense of the total band sound & particularly
>that
> > >of the lead instrument - I like to play in and out of whatever phrases
>the
> > >lead guy (or girl) is playing & just leave him be during the middle of
>it -
> > >afterall - everyone's looking at the guitar player anyway, right?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Whats the worst thing a guitar player can do to a drummer when
>playing?
> > >Play
> > > > too loud? Play out of time?
> > >
> > >No and yes. If I'm behind my kit & all I hear is the lead guitar, is
>he
> > >playing too loud?? Maybe... or maybe not. The mix may sound perfect
>out
> > >front (which is all that really matters) but because of my proximity to
>the
> > >other amps, my perception may be biased towards one instrument over the
> > >rest. In my situation, I play off the bass & the lead guitar - I like
>to
> > >hear the rhythm, too, & I think its essential to the overall
> > >instrumentation
> > >of the band, but I only need to hear the bass to groove with and the
>lead
> > >guitar to follow the changes. I can only assume that the rhythm guitar
> > >player is doing his part (he usually is) and filling out the sound, but
>I
> > >have enough problems holding onto two sticks and doing my own job. I
>would
> > >rather the guitar is too loud than too soft - my hearing might come
>back
> > >someday, but I rarely forgive myself if I screw something up because I
> > >can't
> > >hear the guitar (god damn our verson of 3rd Star in Monterey to hell).
>And
> > >yes, if someone goes out of time, especially the lead guitar player (or
> > >worse yet, the drummer) then that's no fun. Hopefully 75% of the band
>will
> > >be playing one way & the final fourth can find his way back into the
>folds
> > >&
> > >recover. If two people go one way and the other two go another, then
>it
> > >sounds like a wrestling match looks being filmed in the back of a panel
>van
> > >travelling down Sunset Blvd. on a limited budget. To summarize, its a
> > >clusterfuck, folks.
> > >
> > > > Where do you stand on the whole "Wipeout" issue? I remember a thread
>on
> > >Cow.
> > > > or Reverborama where most bands poo-poo'ed the notion of playing it
> > >live.
> > >Is
> > > > it a drummer's signature song or a tired stereotype of the genre?
> > >
> > >Well, "Wipeout" is a great example of good surf drums - the beat
>originated
> > >as a cadence played by drummers in the school marching band - but there
>are
> > >other good examples of surf drums too. I think because of the song's
> > >overwhelming popularity, it has achieved novelty status, so its
>probably
> > >common for cover bands to do it & say they do a surf tune & everyone
>will
> > >like it. While its certainly Ron Wilson's signature song, I don't
>think
>it
> > >has to be a drummer's signature song - at least in a modern surf band
> > >setting. I mean, normal rock drummers will probably come across it at
> > >some
> > >point in their development - figure out how to play it (which isn't
>that
> > >hard) & be done with it. As a fan and player of the true surf/instro
> > >music, I would join ranks with those that poo poo the notion of playing
>it
> > >live - I would say the same thing of Pipeline (go ahead, castrate the
> > >blasphemer) - I mean both songs are so well known (and so often
>covered)
> > >that I don't need to hear either one again (live or covered). If
>you're
>in
> > >a band & playing in a situation where playing those songs will get you
>more
> > >money, or prevent rotten vegetables from being hurled at you, then by
>all
> > >means play 'em. I just try and avoid those gigs if I can. Going back
>to
> > >the previous question again, the absolute worse thing that can happen
>to
>a
> > >drummer is when the guitar player goes out of time while you're playing
>one
> > >of the above-mentioned standards under protest in public & the whole
>thing
> > >becomes a debacle of mass proportions. So if you do decide to play
>Wipe
> > >Out, make sure it sounds impeccable & that everyone in the band can
>play
>it
> > >without a hitch - you don't want to be known as the surf band that
>can't
> > >play Wipe Out correctly - especially when that may be the only song the
> > >audience knows. I'll take Hal Blaine's performance on "K-39" or Mel
> > >Taylor's "Caravan" solo from The Ventures 1965 Live in Japan over
>"Wipe
> > >Out" any day.
> > >
> > > > What are some of the best surf tunes for drummers?
> > >
> > >To listen to or play? K-39 is just a masterpiece as far as a
>consistent
> > >recording, stick control & dynamics are concerned. I listen to surf
>music
> > >for the guitar sound (different textures & sounds, lead & rhythm
>interplay,
> > >etc), so as long as the drummer is doing his/her job than I'm happy as
>a
> > >listener. I really hate recordings where the guitar sound is great &
>the
> > >drums sound like crap (or worse when they sound like crap and they're
>too
> > >loud in the mix). Every drummer approaches a song differently, so some
>may
> > >be more enjoyable for some than others - it all depends on the drummer.
> > >Play any Straitjackets song & I'll like it because Jimmy Lester is an
> > >awesome drummer as are so many others. There are so many 1st Wave
>songs
> > >that feature good, yet simple & effective drums (Margaya by the Fender
>IV,
> > >Exotic by The Sentinals, Time Bomb by The Avengers VI, Surf Party by
>The
> > >Astronauts, Third Star from the Left by The Nocturnes, & of course The
> > >Wedge). The best surf tunes to play for drummers are what the
>drummers
> > >themselves make out of them. Personally I like playing all of the
>songs
>we
> > >play (both originals and covers) because I can play almost whatever I
>want
> > >&
> > >have a good time and not get in anyone else's way while doing it. I
>most
> > >enjoy playing a basic surf beat & listening to whatever evil sounds are
> > >coming out of the guitar amps with a big smile on my face - there is a
> > >reason we wear dark pants in The Nebulas!
> > >
> > >toofastjim
> > >The Nebulas
> > >
> > >www.thenebulas.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Je kan ook Messenger berichten op je mobiele telefoon ontvangen!
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > .
> > Visit for archived messages,
>bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Chatten met je vrienden via het web? Probeer MSN Messenger
hell yeah, done it too often!
a jazzers quote (i believe it was charlie parker, dont know for sure) was
"you're always a half step away from a great note".... that works too, as
soon as you hear something strange, just move up one fret, if you do it fast
enough it will work out fine.
>From: "urbansurfkings" <>
>Reply-To:
>To:
>Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
>TooFastJim)
>Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 01:33:42 -0000
>
>--- In SurfGuitar101@y..., "toofastjim" <toofastjim@e...> wrote:
> > Its always best when no one screws up, but you are right in that
>lead guitar
> > and drum mistakes are usually noticed the most.
> >
>Play that mistake twice, and folks think ya meant to do it.... ;-)
>
>Mike/USK
>
_________________________________________________________________
Abonneer je op de MSN Nieuwsbrieven van jouw interesse
Dusty is a great all around drummer that can play surf among many other
things- his style is obviously more involved than that of your typical surf
drummer, but definitely works in a four piece arrangement, too - buy some
J&TNR on CD and you will see - there's one more guitar, but its still
Dusty - no mistake about it.
Too bad about SRV - I met him once at college - I doubt it was sabotage -
just unfortunate. I don't think I'd wish anyone else dead in his place -
Clapton made a significant contribution back in the 60s before he got hooked
on smack in the 70s. I don't know, maybe the survivng members of Skynyrd
are due for another plane ride.
tfj
----- Original Message -----
From: rock verb <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention TooFastJim)
> Jeez, Jim, you're on a roll....five more posts and you'll have a book to
> publish!
>
> good thing you started this thread, it's nioce to find that there's more
> musicians with an interest broader then their own instrument.
Bandmembers'
> inetrest in eachothers sound, parts and the overall sound can be a major
> contribution toi the band. and it's lots of fun.
>
> in my former band i used to play an A-flat solo over an A song, just to
> check whether anyone was listining. it usually went unnoticed. and about
> the PA, don't know how it is in the States, here in Holland bands tend to
> play in so-called youth-centres, and they all have (crappy) PA's. most
bars
> have one too. Our drummer playes relatively soft, back then with 7A
> sticks.... And really, always the PA guy would be complaining he had to
hit
> harder, because it couldn't be amplified. but this is how hard he hits!!!
I
> don't know what it is, bad mics, bad amp, but somehow it just never
worked.
> sorry, my little frustration.
>
> Dusty, in my humble opinion, is not really a surf-drummer -ouch, don't
kill
> me (maybe he is, but he doesn't play surf-drums, is what i mean). He is a
> fantastic rock-drummer, and the greatness of both Slacktone and the recent
> DD is that they somehow bring the different styles they play together
> perfectly. Thus awesome in a three piece innovative surf band.... in a
> trad-style four-piece, i don't know... doesn't he play with Jon and the
> nightriders? how is he there? (sorry, i bought one LP of them, but gave it
> away since i didn't have a record player) just my two cents...
>
> anyway, keep posting about drums
>
> wannes
>
> i read you on dd/srv. still think that SRV should have stuck to
blues-rock.
> think he should have left that helicopter ride to Clapton too. Think it
was
> sabotaged? think they were after Clapton? Don't you love
> conspieracy-theories?
>
>
> >From: "toofastjim" <>
> >Reply-To:
> >To: <>
> >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> >TooFastJim)
> >Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:45:25 -0500
> >
> >Its always best when no one screws up, but you are right in that lead
> >guitar
> >and drum mistakes are usually noticed the most.
> >
> >I like surf drums when they're tuned jazzy (ie, somewhat high pitched
with
> >a
> >lot of ring) - the rest of the band noise usually absorbs the ringing of
> >the
> >drums & it sounds good most of the time - I also don't lke too much kick
> >drum in the mix - less kick puts more emphasis on the back beat, but
again
> >just my opinion. I actually prefer playing smaller rooms - takes the
whole
> >PA guy issue out of the picture & then the drums (and everything else)
are
> >only as loud as you play 'em. Hopefully when there is a sound guy, he
puts
> >me in the proper place in the mix & lets everything else be heard,
> >especially the lead guitar. If the kit is miked, it shouldn't matter how
> >hard you hit the drums, but if you're lucky enough to get a sound check,
> >make sure you hit the drums then as loud as you will when you start the
> >show - or else the drum mikes will start clipping & distorting. I
remember
> >Rip from the Penetrators posting something awhile ago stating that they
> >would bring a tip sheet for an uninitiated sound guy telling him how to
mix
> >the band. I would like to think we make it easy for sound guys because
we
> >don't have any vocals & don't talk too much (at our Halloween show, we
> >didn't say one word - the front line just pointed to The Nebulas logo on
my
> >bass drum & then held up signs that said CDs $10 / Buy or Die).
> >
> >I guess I hit the drums fairly hard, but I use light sticks, but if the
> >music requires a certain degree of intensity (hard & fast), then I aims
to
> >deliver. Speaking of hard-hitters, Dusty makes me sound like I'm using
> >brushes - although I don't think he plays too loud given who he's playing
> >with. He can play quiet, though - I've heard him. (listen to The New
> >Relampagos) - so its important to be able to play quiet if the song (or
> >song
> >part) calls for it - its all about dynamics. And Birdstuff is no subdued
> >jazz tapper, either - he plays hard and mean. This is not the same as
> >having to play your hard and fast stuff real quiet because you booked
> >yourself into a room suited for string quartets and acoustic duos &
volume
> >-
> >that's no fun - the band rarely enjoys it because they have to hold back
&
> >the audience gets ripped off because they only hear a 4 cylinder version
of
> >an 8 cylinder song. That's why we have demo CDs for booking - if you
> >think
> >aggressive surf music played with big amps (or more recently with really
> >loud little ones) will be too loud for your bar - don't book us. So far,
> >we
> >haven't had any volume complaints from any establishments we've played &
> >usually don't play louder than the other bands on the bill.
> >
> >The Live in Japan Caravan solo starts out with all drums for a while,
> >reaches a crescendo & then the bass guitar comes in - Mel may even be
> >hitting the strings with a stick while Bob fingers the fret board (I'll
> >have
> >to refer to my video copy of the performance to be sure), but the bass
> >notes
> >sound very percussive and this was long before Tony Levin started using
his
> >little finger sticks. Anyhoo, after the bass bit, the drums solo alone
> >again for a while before the whole band comes back in. Drum solos over
> >bass or guitar vamps sound fine too - listen to Satan's Pilgims version
of
> >"Casbah" & you'll find Johnny playing away while Teddy solos over the
top.
> >The point is, its still more interesting than Wipe Out.
> >
> >I have no problem with the SRV/dd version of Pipleine - it helped bring
> >surf
> >briefly back into mainstream rock & illustrated that it was an influence
> >among many guitar players. It also gave dd some more exposure, too.
Its
> >ok for a bar band to play that (or Wipeout) as their token surf song, but
I
> >think what I was trying say in my previous rants was if I'm going to see
a
> >surf band play surf/instro all night, I would rather they skipped those
two
> >(and a few others) and play their originals or obscure, less-covered
> >covers.
> >Just don't ask me about Gary Hoey and the rest of the Endless Summer II
> >soundtrack - it may be technically proficient, but not my cup of tea.
> >
> >toofastjim
> >The Nebulas
> >
> >www.thenebulas.com
> >
> >
> >PS - the opions stated above are just mine & shouldn't be taken too
> >seriously - if you're a drummer who likes to use thick heads with oil
> >between the plies and then still muffle whatever life they may have had
out
> >of them - go for it. As long as it results in the sound you're trying to
> >achieve - and your band is happy with it. Fortunately, I'm in a band
> >whose
> >members notice (and actively point out with disapproval) when I throw
> >something other than a single ply coated white head on a drum - I
> >appreciate
> >the fact they care about such things - especially because they're right -
> >it
> >was just a test to see if they were listening. Likewise, I like it when
> >they use 11s because they don't break as much as the 10s & string
snapping
> >is something everyone notices.
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: rock verb <>
> >To: <>
> >Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:34 AM
> >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> >TooFastJim)
> >
> >
> > > great post from the man with the oval bassdrum!
> > >
> > > no, i'm not a drummer, and yes, drums is a key-ingredient in surf.
> >Drummer
> > > and lead guitarist are on a shared 1st place when it comes to 'not
> >allowed
> > > to screw up'. Really, the bass and the rythm guitar can miss a not or
a
> > > chord every now and then (not saying they should, though), but a fuck
up
> >by
> > > the drummer will be immediatly noticed. respect for all the drummers.
> > >
> > > i like my surf drums to have a jazzy sound, a little back in the mix,
> >very
> > > dynamical and simple. Do all P.A.-people in general have a problem
with
> > > drummers that don't hit the kit as hard as they can?? Oh, and please
no
> > > compressors/gates on the drums!! Slacktone is the example to the rule,
> >of
> > > course, and obviously being a three-piece leaves much more room to the
> > > drummer.
> > >
> > > Good to point out the caravan-solo, but uhhh, isn't he playing bass
> >there
> > > too?
> > >
> > > wannes
> > >
> > > PS, your comment about pipeline, how about that version with steve ray
> > > vaughn????
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "toofastjim" <>
> > > >Reply-To:
> > > >To: <>
> > > >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> > > >TooFastJim)
> > > >Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:16:39 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Shit! I thought this was a message board about MILF hunters
worldwide
> >-
> >I
> > > >must be in the wrong place. Seriously, I would like to think and
hope
> >that
> > > >I'm not the only non-plank-plucker to hang out on this list. You
don't
> > > >have
> > > >to rename the thing, either - surf music is primarily a guitar-driven
> >genre
> > > >anyway & getting the surf sound out of the guitar (strings, amps,
> >speakers,
> > > >effects, microphones, tubes, tube mods, tolex, grill cloth - all that
> > > >shite)
> > > >is of the utmost importance. It helps to have the right equipment
(for
> >all
> > > >musicians, not just guitar) but once you start recording, the results
> >can
> > > >sound really good or really bad regardless of the instruments - its
up
> >to
> > > >the engineer to accurately capture the sound being produced by each
> > > >instrument - for most live surf gigs, you're on your own, so you
better
> > > >have
> > > >the equipment to get the sound you're looking for - or be prepared to
> >get
> > > >pissed off and pout in the corner for a spell. Drums are pretty
> >straight
> > > >forward - you put the head on the drum & tighten it. Just like the
> >guitar,
> > > >there are certain heads & drum sizes to use to get the desired sound,
> >but
> >I
> > > >think there are more alternatives in the guitar world - although from
> >an
> > > >aesthetic standpoint, if your guitar player is going to play with a
> >vintage
> > > >(or vintage-looking) Mosrite or Jag (not Jagstang OR Jagmaster)
> >through
> >a
> > > >1965 Showman cabinet & matching 1965 blackface reverb tank, you may
as
> > > >well
> > > >throw down 3/4 of what he paid for the cabinet alone on a vintage
drum
> >kit
> > > >(prefereably in a sparkle or pearl wrap) to complete the whole
> >retro/surf
> > > >stage presentation - the whole band just looks authentic when you do
it
> > > >that
> > > >way, but of course the sound has to come before all else.
> > > >
> > > >And now to the Q & A portion of our programme:
> > > >
> > > > > I really respect drummers and admire what they do (it seems
> >impossible
> > > >to
> > > > > the non-player). What do you feel the drummer's role in a surf
band
> > > >should
> > > > > be? Is it different than other genres?
> > > >
> > > >The drummer's role in any band is to provide a foundation for the
> >rhythm
> > > >section, upon which every other element of the music is based. If
you
> > > >don't
> > > >have solid drums, bass & preferably rhythm guitar laying it down,
> > > >everything on top of that, whether its a guitar melody line, organ
solo
> >or
> > > >even a vocal, will not sound as good (read: full) as it can. I
think
> >its
> > > >important for drummers in all genres not to overstep their bounds &
> >start
> > > >crowding the lead instrument (or vocal if there is one) - then one
> >becomes
> > > >less of a drummer & more of a wanker. For instro music, I view my
> >role
> >as
> > > >a beat-keeper, particularly in the traditional four-piece arrangement
> >that
> > > >I
> > > >am currently in. The same could be said for a five piece combo -
> >factoring
> > > >in the sax, organ or 3rd guitar - the drummer's role should be that
of
> >a
> > > >beat-master, maybe throwing in some basic fills to transition from
one
> > > >section to the next with the occasional 8 or 16 bar drum break in
every
> >3rd
> > > >or 4th song. In a trio, its a little more difficult as there is a
> >lot
> > > >more space to fill with fewer people to do it - usually it can
involve
> >one
> > > >single hyperactive guitar, too busy drums and/or an overplayed bass
(if
> >one
> > > >or two of those elements is grossly out of proportion with the rest,
> >the
> > > >results could be less than gratifying). Slacktone would be the
notable
> > > >exception to this - they seem very balanced - as active as Dusty is,
> >their
> > > >recordings/performances never seem to favor one instrument - sure the
> >drums
> > > >are busy, but because of what Meyer Wronski is doing, the whole mix
> >doesn't
> > > >seem drum heavy. Conversely, as amazing as Dave Wronski is - the mix
> > > >doesn't sound guitar heavy because of what's going on behind the 1971
> > > >Ludwig
> > > >Blue Sparkles - and of course whether you're listening to Mike or Sam
> >on
> > > >bass, they certainly contribute their 33.333% to the mix - again,
the
> >bass
> > > >doesn't overtake the performance, but at the same time, its the
> >furthest
> > > >thing from a guitar and drum-dominated trio. Other trios augment
their
> > > >recording sound with an extra instrument (Mark Brodie's various
> >projects
> >or
> > > >The Sir Finks come to mind) or sound effects & stuff (Destination
> >Earth)
> >&
> > > >that's all good, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a trio that can pull
> >it
> > > >off
> > > >as good as Slacktone. To get back to the question - in surf/instro
> >music,
> > > >there is no vocal, so the drummer has a little more room to
embellish,
> >but
> > > >it should not be at the expense of the total band sound &
particularly
> >that
> > > >of the lead instrument - I like to play in and out of whatever
phrases
> >the
> > > >lead guy (or girl) is playing & just leave him be during the middle
of
> >it -
> > > >afterall - everyone's looking at the guitar player anyway, right?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Whats the worst thing a guitar player can do to a drummer when
> >playing?
> > > >Play
> > > > > too loud? Play out of time?
> > > >
> > > >No and yes. If I'm behind my kit & all I hear is the lead guitar,
is
> >he
> > > >playing too loud?? Maybe... or maybe not. The mix may sound
perfect
> >out
> > > >front (which is all that really matters) but because of my proximity
to
> >the
> > > >other amps, my perception may be biased towards one instrument over
the
> > > >rest. In my situation, I play off the bass & the lead guitar - I
like
> >to
> > > >hear the rhythm, too, & I think its essential to the overall
> > > >instrumentation
> > > >of the band, but I only need to hear the bass to groove with and the
> >lead
> > > >guitar to follow the changes. I can only assume that the rhythm
guitar
> > > >player is doing his part (he usually is) and filling out the sound,
but
> >I
> > > >have enough problems holding onto two sticks and doing my own job. I
> >would
> > > >rather the guitar is too loud than too soft - my hearing might come
> >back
> > > >someday, but I rarely forgive myself if I screw something up because
I
> > > >can't
> > > >hear the guitar (god damn our verson of 3rd Star in Monterey to
hell).
> >And
> > > >yes, if someone goes out of time, especially the lead guitar player
(or
> > > >worse yet, the drummer) then that's no fun. Hopefully 75% of the
band
> >will
> > > >be playing one way & the final fourth can find his way back into the
> >folds
> > > >&
> > > >recover. If two people go one way and the other two go another, then
> >it
> > > >sounds like a wrestling match looks being filmed in the back of a
panel
> >van
> > > >travelling down Sunset Blvd. on a limited budget. To summarize, its
a
> > > >clusterfuck, folks.
> > > >
> > > > > Where do you stand on the whole "Wipeout" issue? I remember a
thread
> >on
> > > >Cow.
> > > > > or Reverborama where most bands poo-poo'ed the notion of playing
it
> > > >live.
> > > >Is
> > > > > it a drummer's signature song or a tired stereotype of the genre?
> > > >
> > > >Well, "Wipeout" is a great example of good surf drums - the beat
> >originated
> > > >as a cadence played by drummers in the school marching band - but
there
> >are
> > > >other good examples of surf drums too. I think because of the song's
> > > >overwhelming popularity, it has achieved novelty status, so its
> >probably
> > > >common for cover bands to do it & say they do a surf tune & everyone
> >will
> > > >like it. While its certainly Ron Wilson's signature song, I don't
> >think
> >it
> > > >has to be a drummer's signature song - at least in a modern surf band
> > > >setting. I mean, normal rock drummers will probably come across it
at
> > > >some
> > > >point in their development - figure out how to play it (which isn't
> >that
> > > >hard) & be done with it. As a fan and player of the true
surf/instro
> > > >music, I would join ranks with those that poo poo the notion of
playing
> >it
> > > >live - I would say the same thing of Pipeline (go ahead, castrate the
> > > >blasphemer) - I mean both songs are so well known (and so often
> >covered)
> > > >that I don't need to hear either one again (live or covered). If
> >you're
> >in
> > > >a band & playing in a situation where playing those songs will get
you
> >more
> > > >money, or prevent rotten vegetables from being hurled at you, then by
> >all
> > > >means play 'em. I just try and avoid those gigs if I can. Going
back
> >to
> > > >the previous question again, the absolute worse thing that can happen
> >to
> >a
> > > >drummer is when the guitar player goes out of time while you're
playing
> >one
> > > >of the above-mentioned standards under protest in public & the whole
> >thing
> > > >becomes a debacle of mass proportions. So if you do decide to play
> >Wipe
> > > >Out, make sure it sounds impeccable & that everyone in the band can
> >play
> >it
> > > >without a hitch - you don't want to be known as the surf band that
> >can't
> > > >play Wipe Out correctly - especially when that may be the only song
the
> > > >audience knows. I'll take Hal Blaine's performance on "K-39" or Mel
> > > >Taylor's "Caravan" solo from The Ventures 1965 Live in Japan over
> >"Wipe
> > > >Out" any day.
> > > >
> > > > > What are some of the best surf tunes for drummers?
> > > >
> > > >To listen to or play? K-39 is just a masterpiece as far as a
> >consistent
> > > >recording, stick control & dynamics are concerned. I listen to surf
> >music
> > > >for the guitar sound (different textures & sounds, lead & rhythm
> >interplay,
> > > >etc), so as long as the drummer is doing his/her job than I'm happy
as
> >a
> > > >listener. I really hate recordings where the guitar sound is great &
> >the
> > > >drums sound like crap (or worse when they sound like crap and they're
> >too
> > > >loud in the mix). Every drummer approaches a song differently, so
some
> >may
> > > >be more enjoyable for some than others - it all depends on the
drummer.
> > > >Play any Straitjackets song & I'll like it because Jimmy Lester is an
> > > >awesome drummer as are so many others. There are so many 1st Wave
> >songs
> > > >that feature good, yet simple & effective drums (Margaya by the
Fender
> >IV,
> > > >Exotic by The Sentinals, Time Bomb by The Avengers VI, Surf Party by
> >The
> > > >Astronauts, Third Star from the Left by The Nocturnes, & of course
The
> > > >Wedge). The best surf tunes to play for drummers are what the
> >drummers
> > > >themselves make out of them. Personally I like playing all of the
> >songs
> >we
> > > >play (both originals and covers) because I can play almost whatever I
> >want
> > > >&
> > > >have a good time and not get in anyone else's way while doing it. I
> >most
> > > >enjoy playing a basic surf beat & listening to whatever evil sounds
are
> > > >coming out of the guitar amps with a big smile on my face - there is
a
> > > >reason we wear dark pants in The Nebulas!
> > > >
> > > >toofastjim
> > > >The Nebulas
> > > >
> > > >www.thenebulas.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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