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Ok, I've got both my Yamaha SGV and 24" scale
Jagmaster strung with 12's. The SGV has Dean Markleys
and the Jagmaster has Roto Purples (per Ivan's
recommendation). After playing just the SGV for a
while I noticed more tenderness in the ends of my
fingers after playing and wondered if it was the
string gauge or the brand of string (Markley). The
setup is good, so that's not it.
After getting the Jagmaster back last week, freshley
setup with the Roto 12's, I find that these are a lot
more comfortable than the Markley 12's on the SGV.
So would this be more a function of the brand of
string or the scale length? I can't really feel any
appreciable difference in the texture of either string
set and the difference in scale length is only 3/4".
Richard
Discover Yahoo!
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out!
The increase in your discomort is due to the heightened tension
caused by the longer scale length in the SGV. 3/4" is actually quite
a big difference in scale length, and is demonstrated by an
appreciable increase in tension. For the same gauge of string, the
tension has to be higher to achieve the same pitch with a longer
scale length.
You can actually calculate the tension, if you know the unit weight
of the material used (supplied by the manufacturer) for a given
string, the scale length, and the desired pitch of that string. So,
if you wanted to have similar "tension feel" between your guitars,
you can plug in your scale length and desired pitch/tension, and back
solve for a gauge for a string. It's very simple. Note, however,
that compensation for longer scale length with lighter strings may
impact your tone, but that's a matter of personal preference, and up
to you to decide what you like.
D'Addario has a very convenient chart with the unit weights of their
line of strings. They also have the formula for back-calculation of
the string gauge from a scale length and pitch.
df
Good luck.
--- In , Richard <errant_jedi@y...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, I've got both my Yamaha SGV and 24" scale
> Jagmaster strung with 12's. The SGV has Dean Markleys
> and the Jagmaster has Roto Purples (per Ivan's
> recommendation). After playing just the SGV for a
> while I noticed more tenderness in the ends of my
> fingers after playing and wondered if it was the
> string gauge or the brand of string (Markley). The
> setup is good, so that's not it.
>
> After getting the Jagmaster back last week, freshley
> setup with the Roto 12's, I find that these are a lot
> more comfortable than the Markley 12's on the SGV.
>
> So would this be more a function of the brand of
> string or the scale length? I can't really feel any
> appreciable difference in the texture of either string
> set and the difference in scale length is only 3/4".
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> Discover Yahoo!
> Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it
out!
>
Hey Richard,
I found the 24" scale on a Jag allowed me to go up a string guage over the 25.5"
scale on
my Strat and Jazzmaster, simply because the lower tension was easier to fret.
That's why I
am chasing a 24.75" conversion scale neck for my project guitar. I want to put
as much
string mass in motion above the pickup as I can. Just 3/4" inch or so of scale
length
makes a noticeable difference in fretting ease.
I've always found it odd that Fender made the Jazzmaster one scale and the
Jaguar
another. Maybe the Jaguar was supposed to appeal to younger players with smaller
hands.
Maybe it had to do with tone. Maybe a marketing gimmick. Who knows?
Another Fender mystery.
Gavin
> Ok, I've got both my Yamaha SGV and 24" scale
> Jagmaster strung with 12's. The SGV has Dean Markleys
> and the Jagmaster has Roto Purples (per Ivan's
> recommendation). After playing just the SGV for a
> while I noticed more tenderness in the ends of my
> fingers after playing and wondered if it was the
> string gauge or the brand of string (Markley). The
> setup is good, so that's not it.
>
> After getting the Jagmaster back last week, freshley
> setup with the Roto 12's, I find that these are a lot
> more comfortable than the Markley 12's on the SGV.
>
> So would this be more a function of the brand of
> string or the scale length? I can't really feel any
> appreciable difference in the texture of either string
> set and the difference in scale length is only 3/4".
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> Discover Yahoo!
> Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out!
>
> I've always found it odd that Fender made the Jazzmaster one scale
and the Jaguar
> another. Maybe the Jaguar was supposed to appeal to younger players
with smaller hands.
> Maybe it had to do with tone. Maybe a marketing gimmick. Who knows?
>
> Another Fender mystery.
>
> Gavin
Jazz guitarists went for short scale necks. look at the Gibson
Byrdland...that has a shorter scale than the Jaguar. I think Leo was
trying to make the Jaguar the perfect "Jazz Master" guitar. I think
the Duo-sonic, and the Mustang were to appeal to the younger players.
The Jaguar was top of line and costly.
Bill
www.reluctantaquanauts.com
Richard, one more thing. The other guys all made valid and important
points, but I want to say a bit about the Rotosound Purples. I
haven't tried the Dean Markley strings, but I did actually try Gibson
Sonomatic 12-58 - also nickel, and very similar gauges as the Roto
Purples. I found them to be quite a bit more difficult to play
compared to the Rotos (on the same guitar). Rotos are quite amazing,
as far as I'm concerned. They sound unbelievably warm right out of
the package (unlike most strings that have a lot of annoying zingy
brightness initially), they last forever, and are very easy on the
fingers for being pretty thick strings - and you can get them for
$5/pack through Juststrings.com! I am crazy about them. So, I'd say
that the scale is definitely VERY important, but the strings play a
role, as well. The best thing to do is to try the Rotos on the SGV,
too - let us know how it works out.
Ivan
--- In , Richard <errant_jedi@y...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, I've got both my Yamaha SGV and 24" scale
> Jagmaster strung with 12's. The SGV has Dean Markleys
> and the Jagmaster has Roto Purples (per Ivan's
> recommendation). After playing just the SGV for a
> while I noticed more tenderness in the ends of my
> fingers after playing and wondered if it was the
> string gauge or the brand of string (Markley). The
> setup is good, so that's not it.
>
> After getting the Jagmaster back last week, freshley
> setup with the Roto 12's, I find that these are a lot
> more comfortable than the Markley 12's on the SGV.
>
> So would this be more a function of the brand of
> string or the scale length? I can't really feel any
> appreciable difference in the texture of either string
> set and the difference in scale length is only 3/4".
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> Discover Yahoo!
> Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it
out!
>
Speaking of long scale lengths, I'm now playing a 30" scale guitar...not
bass...not baritone...a guitar. Now the rest of the story. I have a Dano
6-string bass that I could never get to sound right and the string spacing is
too close with the thick bass strings (yes, even the light 6-string bass type).
I strung it as a baritone for a while and that was ok but how many single note
songs can you play on a baritone before yer bored with it.
So I've got guitar strings for the top 4 strings and bass strings for the bottom
2. I'm having a blast arranging tunes that sound like a bass and guitar are
playing.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:16 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: String gauges, scale length, and finger pain
The increase in your discomort is due to the heightened tension
caused by the longer scale length in the SGV. 3/4" is actually quite
a big difference in scale length, and is demonstrated by an
appreciable increase in tension. For the same gauge of string, the
tension has to be higher to achieve the same pitch with a longer
scale length.
You can actually calculate the tension, if you know the unit weight
of the material used (supplied by the manufacturer) for a given
string, the scale length, and the desired pitch of that string. So,
if you wanted to have similar "tension feel" between your guitars,
you can plug in your scale length and desired pitch/tension, and back
solve for a gauge for a string. It's very simple. Note, however,
that compensation for longer scale length with lighter strings may
impact your tone, but that's a matter of personal preference, and up
to you to decide what you like.
D'Addario has a very convenient chart with the unit weights of their
line of strings. They also have the formula for back-calculation of
the string gauge from a scale length and pitch.
df
Good luck.
--- In , Richard <errant_jedi@y...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, I've got both my Yamaha SGV and 24" scale
> Jagmaster strung with 12's. The SGV has Dean Markleys
> and the Jagmaster has Roto Purples (per Ivan's
> recommendation). After playing just the SGV for a
> while I noticed more tenderness in the ends of my
> fingers after playing and wondered if it was the
> string gauge or the brand of string (Markley). The
> setup is good, so that's not it.
>
> After getting the Jagmaster back last week, freshley
> setup with the Roto 12's, I find that these are a lot
> more comfortable than the Markley 12's on the SGV.
>
> So would this be more a function of the brand of
> string or the scale length? I can't really feel any
> appreciable difference in the texture of either string
> set and the difference in scale length is only 3/4".
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> Discover Yahoo!
> Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it
out!
>
.
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bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So I've got guitar strings for the top 4 strings and bass strings
for the bottom 2. I'm having a blast arranging tunes that sound like a
bass and guitar are playing.
>
> -Marty
Marty,
Have you a copy of the Chet Atkins album from around '68 called "Solo
Flights".........
Bill
www.reluctantaquanauts.com
So the Rotos are nickel, and the Dean Markleys are stainless??
With my experince in flatwound strings, nickel flats of the the same
gauge as stainless always are more bendy...thus easier on the
hands. Maybe this is your situation Richard.
Bill
www.reluctantaquanauts.com
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
> Richard, one more thing. The other guys all made valid and
important
> points, but I want to say a bit about the Rotosound Purples. I
> haven't tried the Dean Markley strings, but I did actually try
Gibson
> Sonomatic 12-58 - also nickel, and very similar gauges as the Roto
> Purples. I found them to be quite a bit more difficult to play
> compared to the Rotos (on the same guitar). Rotos are quite
amazing,
> as far as I'm concerned. They sound unbelievably warm right out
of
> the package (unlike most strings that have a lot of annoying zingy
> brightness initially), they last forever, and are very easy on the
> fingers for being pretty thick strings - and you can get them for
> $5/pack through Juststrings.com! I am crazy about them. So, I'd
say
> that the scale is definitely VERY important, but the strings play
a
> role, as well. The best thing to do is to try the Rotos on the
SGV,
> too - let us know how it works out.
>
> Ivan
>
> --- In , Richard <errant_jedi@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I've got both my Yamaha SGV and 24" scale
> > Jagmaster strung with 12's. The SGV has Dean Markleys
> > and the Jagmaster has Roto Purples (per Ivan's
> > recommendation). After playing just the SGV for a
> > while I noticed more tenderness in the ends of my
> > fingers after playing and wondered if it was the
> > string gauge or the brand of string (Markley). The
> > setup is good, so that's not it.
> >
> > After getting the Jagmaster back last week, freshley
> > setup with the Roto 12's, I find that these are a lot
> > more comfortable than the Markley 12's on the SGV.
> >
> > So would this be more a function of the brand of
> > string or the scale length? I can't really feel any
> > appreciable difference in the texture of either string
> > set and the difference in scale length is only 3/4".
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
> >
> > Discover Yahoo!
> > Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it
> out!
> >
Go out and buy any Tuck and Patti album. Tuck Andress takes the Joe
Pass thumb bass thing to the nth degree. His cover of Wes
Montgomery's "Up and at It" will make you want to give up the guitar
for good. That thing with harmonics he does at the end... holy crap.
...And he's got soul.
and *this* is how you do simultaneous walking bass:
Tuck is just sick. It's like a 4-man band: lead, rhythm, bass, and
percussion. His wife Patti has a gorgeous voice too.
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
Marty,
>
> Have you a copy of the Chet Atkins album from around '68 called "Solo
> Flights".........
>
> Bill
> www.reluctantaquanauts.com
Yeah, Tuck and Patti have some great stuff. I've learned a couple of his
arrangements in the past. They printed 'em in Guitar Player. Lenny Breau is
another to investigate if you haven't already. He's also amazing with the
harmonics and walking bass. Martin Taylor is another.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:12 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: String gauges, scale length, and finger pain
Go out and buy any Tuck and Patti album. Tuck Andress takes the Joe
Pass thumb bass thing to the nth degree. His cover of Wes
Montgomery's "Up and at It" will make you want to give up the guitar
for good. That thing with harmonics he does at the end... holy crap.
...And he's got soul.
and *this* is how you do simultaneous walking bass:
Tuck is just sick. It's like a 4-man band: lead, rhythm, bass, and
percussion. His wife Patti has a gorgeous voice too.
--- In , "supertwangreverb"
<supertwangreverb@y...> wrote:
Marty,
>
> Have you a copy of the Chet Atkins album from around '68 called "Solo
> Flights".........
>
> Bill
> www.reluctantaquanauts.com
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yeah, I have that Chet album. He does the same trick (bass strings on 5 and 6)
for one side of the album but he's using Gretsch guitar scale as opposed to 30"
scale.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: supertwangreverb
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:20 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: String gauges, scale length, and finger pain
> So I've got guitar strings for the top 4 strings and bass strings
for the bottom 2. I'm having a blast arranging tunes that sound like a
bass and guitar are playing.
>
> -Marty
Marty,
Have you a copy of the Chet Atkins album from around '68 called "Solo
Flights".........
Bill
www.reluctantaquanauts.com
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ivan -
Thank you so much for your endorsement of the Roto
Strings, and of juststrings.com!
I've been using D'Addario 12's and 13's, but like you,
I don't like the zingy brightness they have when new.
I've just ordered several sets of the Roto Purple 12's
and 13's for my Strat and Jazzmaster.
Bruce D
--- ipongrac <> wrote:
> Richard, one more thing. The other guys all made
> valid and important
> points, but I want to say a bit about the Rotosound
> Purples. I
> haven't tried the Dean Markley strings, but I did
> actually try Gibson
> Sonomatic 12-58 - also nickel, and very similar
> gauges as the Roto
> Purples. I found them to be quite a bit more
> difficult to play
> compared to the Rotos (on the same guitar). Rotos
> are quite amazing,
> as far as I'm concerned. They sound unbelievably
> warm right out of
> the package (unlike most strings that have a lot of
> annoying zingy
> brightness initially), they last forever, and are
> very easy on the
> fingers for being pretty thick strings - and you can
> get them for
> $5/pack through Juststrings.com! I am crazy about
> them. So, I'd say
> that the scale is definitely VERY important, but the
> strings play a
> role, as well. The best thing to do is to try the
> Rotos on the SGV,
> too - let us know how it works out.
>
> Ivan
>
> --- In , Richard
> <errant_jedi@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I've got both my Yamaha SGV and 24" scale
> > Jagmaster strung with 12's. The SGV has Dean
> Markleys
> > and the Jagmaster has Roto Purples (per Ivan's
> > recommendation). After playing just the SGV for a
> > while I noticed more tenderness in the ends of my
> > fingers after playing and wondered if it was the
> > string gauge or the brand of string (Markley).
> The
> > setup is good, so that's not it.
> >
> > After getting the Jagmaster back last week,
> freshley
> > setup with the Roto 12's, I find that these are a
> lot
> > more comfortable than the Markley 12's on the SGV.
>
> >
> > So would this be more a function of the brand of
> > string or the scale length? I can't really feel
> any
> > appreciable difference in the texture of either
> string
> > set and the difference in scale length is only
> 3/4".
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
> >
> > Discover Yahoo!
> > Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and
> more. Check it
> out!
> >
>
>
>
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
The package for the Markleys says "NickelSteel", so I
would assume that they're nickel. The Roto's and the
short scale are so much more comfortable that I
haven't really played the SGV much...I think I'll try
my extra package of Roto's (they came with an extra
top string, btw, a very nice idea) on the SGV and see
what kind of difference it makes.
Richard
--- supertwangreverb <>
wrote:
> So the Rotos are nickel, and the Dean Markleys are
> stainless??
> With my experince in flatwound strings, nickel flats
> of the the same
> gauge as stainless always are more bendy...thus
> easier on the
> hands. Maybe this is your situation Richard.
>
> Bill
> www.reluctantaquanauts.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
wrote:
> Thank you so much for your endorsement of the Roto
> Strings, and of juststrings.com!
You're very welcome Bruce.
> I've been using D'Addario 12's and 13's, but like you,
> I don't like the zingy brightness they have when new.
> I've just ordered several sets of the Roto Purple 12's
> and 13's for my Strat and Jazzmaster.
Great, let us know how you like them. I actually recently bought a
couple of sets of D'Addario 12s, cause juststrings ran out of the
Rotos. I put them on one of my Strats about a month ago. They're
good strings, but I don't think they're nearly as good as the Rotos.
As you say, lot of zingy brightness for the first several weeks of
use, and they just don't feel as good as the Rotos. They're a bit
harder to play, too (though not as bad as Gibsons). So, I think
switching from D'Addario to Rotos will prove to be a revelation for
you. They have the most vintage sound of any roundwound strings I
have ever heard.
Ivan
I never liked D'addario Chromes but I know alot of surf guys use
these. Our old drummer plays Lennon in a tribute band...these guys
are sicker than surf guys when it came to getting things gear
related right. He said D'addario Chromes chewed up his frets, which
would make sense seeing that they are stainless, he gave me my first
set up Pyramid flats, and after 6 months of heavy use my wound G
string started to unwind because of the indents the frets left on
the string...those Pyamids were so soft... That never happened when
I was using stainless strings, the frets were taking all the abuse.
If those Dean's say stainless anywhere in the title I'm willing to
bet they are just nickel plated stainless.
Bill
www.reluctantaquanauts.com
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
> --- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
> wrote:
> > Thank you so much for your endorsement of the Roto
> > Strings, and of juststrings.com!
>
> You're very welcome Bruce.
>
> > I've been using D'Addario 12's and 13's, but like you,
> > I don't like the zingy brightness they have when new.
> > I've just ordered several sets of the Roto Purple 12's
> > and 13's for my Strat and Jazzmaster.
>
> Great, let us know how you like them. I actually recently bought
a
> couple of sets of D'Addario 12s, cause juststrings ran out of the
> Rotos. I put them on one of my Strats about a month ago. They're
> good strings, but I don't think they're nearly as good as the
Rotos.
> As you say, lot of zingy brightness for the first several weeks of
> use, and they just don't feel as good as the Rotos. They're a bit
> harder to play, too (though not as bad as Gibsons). So, I think
> switching from D'Addario to Rotos will prove to be a revelation
for
> you. They have the most vintage sound of any roundwound strings I
> have ever heard.
>
> Ivan
Ivan should get a commission. I've just ordered some 11's (reds) and 13's. For
some reason they run out of colors when you want 13's.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: String gauges, scale length, and finger pain
Ivan -
Thank you so much for your endorsement of the Roto
Strings, and of juststrings.com!
I've been using D'Addario 12's and 13's, but like you,
I don't like the zingy brightness they have when new.
I've just ordered several sets of the Roto Purple 12's
and 13's for my Strat and Jazzmaster.
Bruce D
--- ipongrac <> wrote:
> Richard, one more thing. The other guys all made
> valid and important
> points, but I want to say a bit about the Rotosound
> Purples. I
> haven't tried the Dean Markley strings, but I did
> actually try Gibson
> Sonomatic 12-58 - also nickel, and very similar
> gauges as the Roto
> Purples. I found them to be quite a bit more
> difficult to play
> compared to the Rotos (on the same guitar). Rotos
> are quite amazing,
> as far as I'm concerned. They sound unbelievably
> warm right out of
> the package (unlike most strings that have a lot of
> annoying zingy
> brightness initially), they last forever, and are
> very easy on the
> fingers for being pretty thick strings - and you can
> get them for
> $5/pack through Juststrings.com! I am crazy about
> them. So, I'd say
> that the scale is definitely VERY important, but the
> strings play a
> role, as well. The best thing to do is to try the
> Rotos on the SGV,
> too - let us know how it works out.
>
> Ivan
>
> --- In , Richard
> <errant_jedi@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I've got both my Yamaha SGV and 24" scale
> > Jagmaster strung with 12's. The SGV has Dean
> Markleys
> > and the Jagmaster has Roto Purples (per Ivan's
> > recommendation). After playing just the SGV for a
> > while I noticed more tenderness in the ends of my
> > fingers after playing and wondered if it was the
> > string gauge or the brand of string (Markley).
> The
> > setup is good, so that's not it.
> >
> > After getting the Jagmaster back last week,
> freshley
> > setup with the Roto 12's, I find that these are a
> lot
> > more comfortable than the Markley 12's on the SGV.
>
> >
> > So would this be more a function of the brand of
> > string or the scale length? I can't really feel
> any
> > appreciable difference in the texture of either
> string
> > set and the difference in scale length is only
> 3/4".
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
> >
> > Discover Yahoo!
> > Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and
> more. Check it
> out!
> >
>
>
>
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
> Ivan should get a commission.
I'm all for that!!
> I've just ordered some 11's (reds) and 13's.
I don't think you'll be sorry... Let us know what you think...
> For some reason they run out of colors when you want 13's.
Really?
Ivan
Thanks Ivan,
I can't wait for the strings to come in.
Unfortunately, I just got the shipping notice from
JustStrings, and they say the 13's are on back-order,
but at least I'll have the 12's in a couple of days.
I'll definitely post my reactions after I've had a
chance to play them.
Bruce D
--- ipongrac <> wrote:
> --- In , bruce d
> <wizzbangg2003@y...>
> wrote:
> > Thank you so much for your endorsement of the Roto
> > Strings, and of juststrings.com!
>
> You're very welcome Bruce.
>
> > I've been using D'Addario 12's and 13's, but like
> you,
> > I don't like the zingy brightness they have when
> new.
> > I've just ordered several sets of the Roto Purple
> 12's
> > and 13's for my Strat and Jazzmaster.
>
> Great, let us know how you like them. I actually
> recently bought a
> couple of sets of D'Addario 12s, cause juststrings
> ran out of the
> Rotos. I put them on one of my Strats about a month
> ago. They're
> good strings, but I don't think they're nearly as
> good as the Rotos.
> As you say, lot of zingy brightness for the first
> several weeks of
> use, and they just don't feel as good as the Rotos.
> They're a bit
> harder to play, too (though not as bad as Gibsons).
> So, I think
> switching from D'Addario to Rotos will prove to be a
> revelation for
> you. They have the most vintage sound of any
> roundwound strings I
> have ever heard.
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
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I got the same thing when I ordered my Roto purples.
It took a week or so for them to get them in stock. I
wonder if they just move that many?
Richard
--- bruce d <> wrote:
> Thanks Ivan,
>
> I can't wait for the strings to come in.
> Unfortunately, I just got the shipping notice from
> JustStrings, and they say the 13's are on
> back-order,
> but at least I'll have the 12's in a couple of days.
> I'll definitely post my reactions after I've had a
> chance to play them.
>
> Bruce D
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