Menu
Just found this group tho' I've been listening to (and trying to play)
surf music for a long, long year.
Got the Jazzmaster (strung with heavy gauge flatwounds, of course) and
the old Fenders & Voxes with plenty of reverb onboard.
I was just playing 'Pipeline' and somebody handed me a really thin,
flexable pick when I dropped the thick Fender teardrop I've been using
forever. What a revelation! The way the pick flexes and snaps against
the string makes it super easy to pull of that tremolo picked glissando
that kicks off the tune.
Is this how the Big Kahunas do it? Am I cheating? I always thought I
needed a fat pick to get a fat tone, but this bendy piece of plastic
makes the work alot easier. Any comments and/or suggestions would be
much appreciated.
dr
> I was just playing 'Pipeline' and somebody handed me a really thin,
> flexable pick when I dropped the thick Fender teardrop I've been using
> forever. What a revelation! The way the pick flexes and snaps against
> the string makes it super easy to pull of that tremolo picked glissando
> that kicks off the tune.
>
> Is this how the Big Kahunas do it? Am I cheating? I always thought I
> needed a fat pick to get a fat tone, but this bendy piece of plastic
> makes the work alot easier. Any comments and/or suggestions would be
> much appreciated.
>
> dr
Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people going to
inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have to
use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct thinning of
the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also, the
overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do precision,
high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast scalar run.
If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting point
and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know when
you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and have the
most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but they
dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight muffled
sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums with
the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking runs.
It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for the
sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick out a
few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good luck.
Wow, what an incredibly fast reply Red!
I'm no stranger to thick picks as my first musical love is hot club
swing and when I'm not listening to Dick Dale I'm listening to Django
Reinhardt. For acoustic gypsy picking I use a Wegen 3.5 mm pick, but,
as you say, heavy picks seem to blunt the sound of an electric guitar.
The two styles seem to complement one another (all that
augmented/diminished melodic minor stuff) and I just heard a gypsy
version of Hank Marvin's (Shadows) 'Man of Mystery' featuring wall-to-
wall DiMeola machine gun pickin' that leads me to my next question;
Do you do a lot of damping to get that staccato thing going? If so,
do you use your fretting hand or the side of your palm near the
bridge to mute the sustain?
Really appreciate your help,
DR
--- In , "red_thundr" <red_thundr@y...>
wrote:
>
> > I was just playing 'Pipeline' and somebody handed me a really
thin,
> > flexable pick when I dropped the thick Fender teardrop I've been
using
> > forever. What a revelation! The way the pick flexes and snaps
against
> > the string makes it super easy to pull of that tremolo picked
glissando
> > that kicks off the tune.
> >
> > Is this how the Big Kahunas do it? Am I cheating? I always
thought I
> > needed a fat pick to get a fat tone, but this bendy piece of
plastic
> > makes the work alot easier. Any comments and/or suggestions would
be
> > much appreciated.
> >
> > dr
>
> Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people going
to
> inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have to
> use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
>
> What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct thinning
of
> the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also, the
> overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
> string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
> transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
> volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
> tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do
precision,
> high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast scalar
run.
>
> If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
> that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting
point
> and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know when
> you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and have
the
> most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
>
> I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but they
> dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight
muffled
> sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums with
> the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
> tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
> precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking
runs.
> It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
> snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for the
> sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
>
> Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick out
a
> few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good luck.
As Red said, a lot of us will insist on certain ways to improve tremelo picking
but I'm going to suggest that befinners don't go with what feels best. I
actually think it's best to try techniques that work best for someone else even
if it doesn't work for you at first. For example, playing bar chords on acoustic
guitar doesn't come easy for many beginners so they play open chords for a
while. It's not until beginners force themselves to get comfortable with bar
chords that they begin to feel right.
As for tremelo picking, if you like the way a certain player does it, find out
what pick they use and how they hold the pick. Also find out the string gage and
whether they use wrist, forearm or a combination to get the technique.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:15 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Tremolo picking question - pick thickness
Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people going to
inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have to
use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct thinning of
the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also, the
overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do precision,
high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast scalar run.
If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting point
and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know when
you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and have the
most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but they
dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight muffled
sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums with
the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking runs.
It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for the
sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick out a
few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good luck.
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree with Marty - When I was just beginning to learn surf guitar I used those
super-thin picks for a while, but was always irritated at the very thin, reedy
sound they caused my guitar to make. Tremelo picking or double-picking with the
thin picks will not really make it that much easier to transition to the
medium-to-thick picks that will give you the full tone and aggressive picking
sound that most surf guitarists want. I use Dunlop nylon picks from about .80
mm to 1.03mm and they're my personal favorites.
Bruce D
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
As Red said, a lot of us will insist on certain ways to improve tremelo picking
but I'm going to suggest that befinners don't go with what feels best. I
actually think it's best to try techniques that work best for someone else even
if it doesn't work for you at first. For example, playing bar chords on acoustic
guitar doesn't come easy for many beginners so they play open chords for a
while. It's not until beginners force themselves to get comfortable with bar
chords that they begin to feel right.
As for tremelo picking, if you like the way a certain player does it, find out
what pick they use and how they hold the pick. Also find out the string gage and
whether they use wrist, forearm or a combination to get the technique.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:15 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Tremolo picking question - pick thickness
Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people going to
inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have to
use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct thinning of
the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also, the
overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do precision,
high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast scalar run.
If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting point
and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know when
you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and have the
most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but they
dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight muffled
sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums with
the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking runs.
It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for the
sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick out a
few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good luck.
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
---------------------------------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
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---------------------------------
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Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Great!
As you're obviously no beginner, you will figure out what works best
for you. My intent is to foster a person's uniqueness. Only then
does your own personality shine through. While tried and true
techniques are well and good, you'll end up a mere clone if you only
copy someone else.
As for the Al DiMeola thing, well, I didn't really get into that too
intentionally, and I only do it for little runs to help articulate
each note. The technique I use on the notes is very light muting with
my palm at the bridge; the fret hand muting is only to help keep the
open strings from ringing. At first, I damped pretty heavily,
thinking that I was really doing the DiMeola thing, but listening
back, I was muting way too heavily, to the point where I was pushing
the strings sharp. Controlling the level of muting takes practice,
because it involves sliding your picking hand forward and back ever so
slightly, NOT by pressing harder on the strings, because you'll just
make them go sharp.
It took a long while to develop my picking to the point where I don't
anchor my fingers on the face of the guitar for support. To do the
muting thing properly and articulately, a floating right hand
technique is best, with the hand forming something of a loose fist,
fingers in. The pick should be quite perpendicular to the string to
get the best, cleanest attack. It literally takes hours and hours
with the metronome, doing the same thing over and over again. Once
you can actually play the lick at speed, ha, then the hard part
starts! The dynamic control is by far the most difficult thing,
because to make it really sparkle, the run needs to be executed not
only smoothly, but without random dynamics, else it just sounds
sloppy. The dynamic control is even more important as you shift over
strings; it's tough to keep it extremely even.
I saw Al DiMeola in concert a few weeks ago, and he has really cut
back on his trademark muting. Afterwards, I chatted with him and
Manuel Barrueco, and casually mentioned it. He said that it's still
part of his palette, but he's more recently getting into exploring
more sophisticated polyrhythms with the pick. I must admit, at times,
he sounded like a very advanced fingerpicking guitarist, like Adrian
Legg. Wish I'd taken some pics... BTW, Al DiMeola is not a big guy,
and he's no fan of "P. Diddy", ha-ha.
I'd love to know who does that version of 'Man Of Mystery'. Have you
heard the flamenco version of The Ventures' "The Savage", by Steve
Stevens? Steve Stevens is Billy Idol's renowned guitarist and
collaborator. He's also been diddling in the DiMeola style lately.
Steve's version is a total homage to DiMeola, especially the intro.
His whole picked gypsy flamenco intro is easily as fast as I've heard
any surf players trem pick, it's breathtaking.
--- In , "d0rad02004" <artRVH@h...>
wrote:
> Wow, what an incredibly fast reply Red!
>
> I'm no stranger to thick picks as my first musical love is hot club
> swing and when I'm not listening to Dick Dale I'm listening to
Django
> Reinhardt. For acoustic gypsy picking I use a Wegen 3.5 mm pick,
but,
> as you say, heavy picks seem to blunt the sound of an electric
guitar.
>
> The two styles seem to complement one another (all that
> augmented/diminished melodic minor stuff) and I just heard a gypsy
> version of Hank Marvin's (Shadows) 'Man of Mystery' featuring
wall-to-
> wall DiMeola machine gun pickin' that leads me to my next question;
>
> Do you do a lot of damping to get that staccato thing going? If so,
> do you use your fretting hand or the side of your palm near the
> bridge to mute the sustain?
>
> Really appreciate your help,
> DR
>
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with both of you.
It's more prudent to relate an experience and let the player make up
their own mind instead of dictating an approach based on an arrogant
assumption that they want to sound like *you*. Let them come to their
own conclusions based on their goals and personal preferences. They
will learn far more from the experience of trial and error than they
would from following a strict process and method.
Provide people with options and insight instead of just assuming that
they want to sound like everyone else; let them take what they want
from the advice. There will be no leaps in the evolution of surf (or
any other style) guitar unless creativity and individuality is
fostered. The truest innovators have always been guided by their own
sensibilities. Fortunately, guys like Michael Hedges, Stanley Jordan,
and Eddie Van Halen didn't listen when someone told them that their
techniques were "wrong".
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
wrote:
> I agree with Marty - When I was just beginning to learn surf guitar
I used those super-thin picks for a while, but was always irritated at
the very thin, reedy sound they caused my guitar to make. Tremelo
picking or double-picking with the thin picks will not really make it
that much easier to transition to the medium-to-thick picks that will
give you the full tone and aggressive picking sound that most surf
guitarists want. I use Dunlop nylon picks from about .80 mm to 1.03mm
and they're my personal favorites.
>
> Bruce D
>
>
> Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> As Red said, a lot of us will insist on certain ways to improve
tremelo picking but I'm going to suggest that befinners don't go with
what feels best. I actually think it's best to try techniques that
work best for someone else even if it doesn't work for you at first.
For example, playing bar chords on acoustic guitar doesn't come easy
for many beginners so they play open chords for a while. It's not
until beginners force themselves to get comfortable with bar chords
that they begin to feel right.
>
> As for tremelo picking, if you like the way a certain player does
it, find out what pick they use and how they hold the pick. Also find
out the string gage and whether they use wrist, forearm or a
combination to get the technique.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: red_thundr
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:15 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Tremolo picking question - pick
thickness
>
> Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people
going to
> inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have
to
> use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
>
> What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct
thinning of
> the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also,
the
> overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
> string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
> transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
> volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
> tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do
precision,
> high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast
scalar run.
>
> If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
> that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting
point
> and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know
when
> you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and
have the
> most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
>
> I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but
they
> dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight
muffled
> sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums
with
> the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
> tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
> precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking
runs.
> It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
> snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for
the
> sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
>
> Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick
out a
> few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good
luck.
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You're not actually disagreeing, Red. I didn't say anything about wanting the
player to sound like "you" or "me". I said the beginner should find a player
whose technique they like and find out how they do it. This is the same thing
you are saying when you say, "Let them come to their
own conclusions based on their goals and personal preferences." As we know, a
player does not develop such goals in a vacuum but by listening to other
players. Adapting more advanced techniques and synthesizing those techniques is
where creativity as well as improvement come in.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Tremolo picking question - pick thickness
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with both of you.
It's more prudent to relate an experience and let the player make up
their own mind instead of dictating an approach based on an arrogant
assumption that they want to sound like *you*. Let them come to their
own conclusions based on their goals and personal preferences. They
will learn far more from the experience of trial and error than they
would from following a strict process and method.
Provide people with options and insight instead of just assuming that
they want to sound like everyone else; let them take what they want
from the advice. There will be no leaps in the evolution of surf (or
any other style) guitar unless creativity and individuality is
fostered. The truest innovators have always been guided by their own
sensibilities. Fortunately, guys like Michael Hedges, Stanley Jordan,
and Eddie Van Halen didn't listen when someone told them that their
techniques were "wrong".
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
wrote:
> I agree with Marty - When I was just beginning to learn surf guitar
I used those super-thin picks for a while, but was always irritated at
the very thin, reedy sound they caused my guitar to make. Tremelo
picking or double-picking with the thin picks will not really make it
that much easier to transition to the medium-to-thick picks that will
give you the full tone and aggressive picking sound that most surf
guitarists want. I use Dunlop nylon picks from about .80 mm to 1.03mm
and they're my personal favorites.
>
> Bruce D
>
>
> Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> As Red said, a lot of us will insist on certain ways to improve
tremelo picking but I'm going to suggest that befinners don't go with
what feels best. I actually think it's best to try techniques that
work best for someone else even if it doesn't work for you at first.
For example, playing bar chords on acoustic guitar doesn't come easy
for many beginners so they play open chords for a while. It's not
until beginners force themselves to get comfortable with bar chords
that they begin to feel right.
>
> As for tremelo picking, if you like the way a certain player does
it, find out what pick they use and how they hold the pick. Also find
out the string gage and whether they use wrist, forearm or a
combination to get the technique.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: red_thundr
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:15 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Tremolo picking question - pick
thickness
>
> Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people
going to
> inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have
to
> use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
>
> What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct
thinning of
> the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also,
the
> overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
> string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
> transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
> volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
> tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do
precision,
> high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast
scalar run.
>
> If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
> that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting
point
> and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know
when
> you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and
have the
> most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
>
> I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but
they
> dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight
muffled
> sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums
with
> the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
> tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
> precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking
runs.
> It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
> snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for
the
> sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
>
> Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick
out a
> few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good
luck.
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Red,
I'm going to add my Two-Cents to what Marty's said here - I don't think it's
arrogant to relate one's own learning experiences, which led me to being able to
play the way one wanted to sound. (It just so happens that I want to be able to
sound like DD, or PJ or Nokie when playing a cover of one of their tunes! I
don't think at any point in my posting, I said, expressed or implied, "This is
what you need to do to sound like ME" (!!!!!) Having re-read my original
posting, I'm pretty darned puzzled how you would have gotten that impression in
the first place anyway.
Most players go through a lot of different types and thicknesses of picks before
they settle on something they really feel comfortable with. For surf music,
which should have strong, toneful lead guitar sounds, one of those ultra-thin
picks simply won't cut it! It's gonna be reminiscent of the sound of a snapping
playing card attached to the spokes of your bicycle wheel when you were 8 years
old, and thought it sounded like a Harley. If you or some other player happens
to think that a weak, paper-thin, wispy sounding lead guitar is the sound you
want to project, you're most welcome to it!
In the nearly 40 years I've been playing guitar and associating with other
guitarists, especially surf-oriented guitarists, I have never met even one who
aspired to make a spindly, papery, wispy sound playing his Strat, J/M or Jag
through a dimed Fender amp!
BTW, sharing experience and accumulated knowledge is part of what makes a
community a positive environment for all. What kind of person sees sharing as
being an arrogant thing to do?
Bruce D
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
You're not actually disagreeing, Red. I didn't say anything about wanting the
player to sound like "you" or "me". I said the beginner should find a player
whose technique they like and find out how they do it. This is the same thing
you are saying when you say, "Let them come to their
own conclusions based on their goals and personal preferences." As w know, a
player does not develop such goals in a vacuum but by listening to other
players. Adapting more advanced techniques and synthesizing those techniques is
where creativity as well as improvement come in.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Tremolo picking question - pick thickness
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with both of you.
It's more prudent to relate an experience and let the player make up
their own mind instead of dictating an approach based on an arrogant
assumption that they want to sound like *you*. Let them come to their
own conclusions based on their goals and personal preferences. They
will learn far more from the experience of trial and error than they
would from following a strict process and method.
Provide people with options and insight instead of just assuming that
they want to sound like everyone else; let them take what they want
from the advice. There will be no leaps in the evolution of surf (or
any other style) guitar unless creativity and individuality is
fostered. The truest innovators have always been guided by their own
sensibilities. Fortunately, guys like Michael Hedges, Stanley Jordan,
and Eddie Van Halen didn't listen when someone told them that their
techniques were "wrong".
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...>
wrote:
> I agree with Marty - When I was just beginning to learn surf guitar
I used those super-thin picks for a while, but was always irritated at
the very thin, reedy sound they caused my guitar to make. Tremelo
picking or double-picking with the thin picks will not really make it
that much easier to transition to the medium-to-thick picks that will
give you the full tone and aggressive picking sound that most surf
guitarists want. I use Dunlop nylon picks from about .80 mm to 1.03mm
and they're my personal favorites.
>
> Bruce D
>
>
> Marty Tippens <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> As Red said, a lot of us will insist on certain ways to improve
tremelo picking but I'm going to suggest that befinners don't go with
what feels best. I actually think it's best to try techniques that
work best for someone else even if it doesn't work for you at first.
For example, playing bar chords on acoustic guitar doesn't come easy
for many beginners so they play open chords for a while. It's not
until beginners force themselves to get comfortable with bar chords
that they begin to feel right.
>
> As for tremelo picking, if you like the way a certain player does
it, find out what pick they use and how they hold the pick. Also find
out the string gage and whether they use wrist, forearm or a
combination to get the technique.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: red_thundr
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:15 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Tremolo picking question - pick
thickness
>
> Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people
going to
> inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have
to
> use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
>
> What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct
thinning of
> the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also,
the
> overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
> string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
> transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
> volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
> tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do
precision,
> high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast
scalar run.
>
> If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
> that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting
point
> and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know
when
> you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and
have the
> most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
>
> I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but
they
> dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight
muffled
> sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums
with
> the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
> tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
> precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking
runs.
> It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
> snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for
the
> sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
>
> Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick
out a
> few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good
luck.
>
>
>
>
> .
> Visit for archived
messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Look, you're going again on what you "believe" sounds right. That's
fine, but neither you nor Marty have any right to assert that belief
on other people. Marty especially needs to learn how to provide
advice and insight without assuming that he is any kind of recognized
authority, which he is not. Interestingly, I have gotten quite a lot
of private emails from lurkers on this group who would like nothing
more than to have Marty shut his trap for a while, just because he
seems to have an opinion on everything. And these lurkers are good
people who have given me kind, useful advice in the background,
behind-the-scenes. I admire and respect their efforts. I do feel
sorry for the fact that they feel pushed out by certain opinionated
individuals. It makes for a less positive environment when they don't
feel welcome.
The key to good advisement is not to proselytize, but to provide
options and insight. Relate your vast experience and knowledge in an
unopinionated, informative way. Strive to take the words "I", "me",
and "my" out of it and state things in such a way that the person with
the questions comes away informed of their choices, both pros and cons.
Believe me, I couldn't care less what your opinion is, but if you give
people some facts, they're more inclined to listen and maybe come away
with a little more knowledge.
You have an opinion about what surf music should sound like, fine.
You're entitled to it. But keep it to yourself. Others may not share
the same opinion, or they might be looking to try something different.
Don't discourage that experimentation by making the assumption that
those who are asking for advice want to follow the norm, or whatever
you think surf music should sound like. Give them options and facts.
Don't preach. Easy.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
> Red,
>
> I'm going to add my Two-Cents to what Marty's said here - I don't
think it's arrogant to relate one's own learning experiences, which
led me to being able to play the way one wanted to sound. (It just so
happens that I want to be able to sound like DD, or PJ or Nokie when
playing a cover of one of their tunes! I don't think at any point in
my posting, I said, expressed or implied, "This is what you need to do
to sound like ME" (!!!!!) Having re-read my original posting, I'm
pretty darned puzzled how you would have gotten that impression in the
first place anyway.
>
> Most players go through a lot of different types and thicknesses of
picks before they settle on something they really feel comfortable
with. For surf music, which should have strong, toneful lead guitar
sounds, one of those ultra-thin picks simply won't cut it! It's gonna
be reminiscent of the sound of a snapping playing card attached to the
spokes of your bicycle wheel when you were 8 years old, and thought it
sounded like a Harley. If you or some other player happens to think
that a weak, paper-thin, wispy sounding lead guitar is the sound you
want to project, you're most welcome to it!
>
> In the nearly 40 years I've been playing guitar and associating with
other guitarists, especially surf-oriented guitarists, I have never
met even one who aspired to make a spindly, papery, wispy sound
playing his Strat, J/M or Jag through a dimed Fender amp!
>
> BTW, sharing experience and accumulated knowledge is part of what
makes a community a positive environment for all. What kind of person
sees sharing as being an arrogant thing to do?
>
> Bruce D
>
Red- How are their answers any different than yours? You were the
first to chime in on this thread, and you gave the guy step by step
instructions on how to use a thick pick! You also used "me" and "I"
consistantly in your post. "I" don't see the difference
between "your" post, and "their" posts!
I have sensed some hostility in many of your recent posts.
Whats the deal? I read and post on Surf Guitar 101 because it's a
freindly group who, although might have differing opinions, always
keep it civil, and about the surf music. Who are
these "lurkers"? "I" personally like Marty and Bruces posts. I
don't always agree with them, but I respect their opinion, and
more often than not, I learn something from them....
The questions was "Is this cheating? Is this the way the Big
Kahuna's do it? Any comments would be apprectiated?" They gave
their comments, you gave yours. Lets leave it at that.
"My" two cents worth...
Chris
--- In , "red_thundr" <red_thundr@y...>
wrote:
>
> > I was just playing 'Pipeline' and somebody handed me a really
thin,
> > flexable pick when I dropped the thick Fender teardrop I've been
using
> > forever. What a revelation! The way the pick flexes and snaps
against
> > the string makes it super easy to pull of that tremolo picked
glissando
> > that kicks off the tune.
> >
> > Is this how the Big Kahunas do it? Am I cheating? I always
thought I
> > needed a fat pick to get a fat tone, but this bendy piece of
plastic
> > makes the work alot easier. Any comments and/or suggestions
would be
> > much appreciated.
> >
> > dr
>
> Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people
going to
> inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have
to
> use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
>
> What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct
thinning of
> the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also,
the
> overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
> string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
> transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
> volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
> tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do
precision,
> high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast
scalar run.
>
> If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
> that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting
point
> and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know when
> you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and have
the
> most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
>
> I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but they
> dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight
muffled
> sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums
with
> the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
> tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
> precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking
runs.
> It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
> snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for
the
> sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
>
> Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick
out a
> few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good
luck.
red_thundr <> wrote:
"neither you nor Marty have any right to assert that belief on other people."
BD>>>Excuuuuuse me, Since when did you unilaterally repeal the First Ten
Amendments? I guess "Red" is a very appropos handle for you! You have now
succeeded in showing the entire group that you can't express a differing opinion
in a polite, respectful fashion.
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
> Red,
>
> I'm going to add my Two-Cents to what Marty's said here - I don't
think it's arrogant to relate one's own learning experiences, which
led me to being able to play the way one wanted to sound. (It just so
happens that I want to be able to sound like DD, or PJ or Nokie when
playing a cover of one of their tunes! I don't think at any point in
my posting, I said, expressed or implied, "This is what you need to do
to sound like ME" (!!!!!) Having re-read my original posting, I'm
pretty darned puzzled how you would have gotten that impression in the
first place anyway.
>
> Most players go through a lot of different types and thicknesses of
picks before they settle on something they really feel comfortable
with. For surf music, which should have strong, toneful lead guitar
sounds, one of those ultra-thin picks simply won't cut it! It's gonna
be reminiscent of the sound of a snapping playing card attached to the
spokes of your bicycle wheel when you were 8 years old, and thought it
sounded like a Harley. If you or some other player happens to think
that a weak, paper-thin, wispy sounding lead guitar is the sound you
want to project, you're most welcome to it!
>
> In the nearly 40 years I've been playing guitar and associating with
other guitarists, especially surf-oriented guitarists, I have never
met even one who aspired to make a spindly, papery, wispy sound
playing his Strat, J/M or Jag through a dimed Fender amp!
>
> BTW, sharing experience and accumulated knowledge is part of what
makes a community a positive environment for all. What kind of person
sees sharing as being an arrogant thing to do?
>
> Bruce D
>
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
---------------------------------
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You know, my reply took a stance where I gave options, and didn't
assert my opinion. I left it up to the person asking the question,
and hopefully they came off informed and better able to make their own
decision as to what to do. I didn't once tell them to do things one
way or another unless pressed for more details. That's the
difference: I'm not going to dictate to someone what they should sound
like or play like, it should ultimately be their choice. It's more
important to let them develop uniqueness and individuality than it is
to steer them into conformity, especially since the instrument is a
tool for personal expression. If they ask for advice, I'll give them
options, but no way am I going to taint their stylistic development by
telling them what to do unless they explicitly ask.
--- In , "Chris" <chris@b...> wrote:
> Red- How are their answers any different than yours? You were the
> first to chime in on this thread, and you gave the guy step by step
> instructions on how to use a thick pick! You also used "me" and "I"
> consistantly in your post. "I" don't see the difference
> between "your" post, and "their" posts!
>
> I have sensed some hostility in many of your recent posts.
> Whats the deal? I read and post on Surf Guitar 101 because it's a
> freindly group who, although might have differing opinions, always
> keep it civil, and about the surf music. Who are
> these "lurkers"? "I" personally like Marty and Bruces posts. I
> don't always agree with them, but I respect their opinion, and
> more often than not, I learn something from them....
>
> The questions was "Is this cheating? Is this the way the Big
> Kahuna's do it? Any comments would be apprectiated?" They gave
> their comments, you gave yours. Lets leave it at that.
>
> "My" two cents worth...
> Chris
>
>
> --- In , "red_thundr" <red_thundr@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I was just playing 'Pipeline' and somebody handed me a really
> thin,
> > > flexable pick when I dropped the thick Fender teardrop I've been
> using
> > > forever. What a revelation! The way the pick flexes and snaps
> against
> > > the string makes it super easy to pull of that tremolo picked
> glissando
> > > that kicks off the tune.
> > >
> > > Is this how the Big Kahunas do it? Am I cheating? I always
> thought I
> > > needed a fat pick to get a fat tone, but this bendy piece of
> plastic
> > > makes the work alot easier. Any comments and/or suggestions
> would be
> > > much appreciated.
> > >
> > > dr
> >
> > Well, use whatever works for you. You'll get a lot of people
> going to
> > inject their ridiculous opinion and try to tell you what you have
> to
> > use, but ultimately, it's up to you. I'll relate my experience.
> >
> > What I do notice with thinner picks is there is a distinct
> thinning of
> > the tone and an increase in the brightness of the attack. Also,
> the
> > overall strength of the attack goes down, since the pick, not the
> > string, is absorbing all your picking energy by bending instead of
> > transmitting that energy to the string. You won't get the same
> > volume. Light picks also leave much to be desired in the area of
> > tactile feedback; this is essential if you want to ever do
> precision,
> > high-speed picking of single-note phrases, like, say, a fast
> scalar run.
> >
> > If you find that a lighter pick is easier for tremolo picking, but
> > that it alters your tone too much, try using it as your starting
> point
> > and gradually work your way up to a heavier pick. You'll know when
> > you hit that balance point where you've got the best tone and have
> the
> > most comfortable and enjoyable playing experience, trust me.
> >
> > I used to use Dunlop 2.0 mm picks (the thick purple ones), but they
> > dulled my attack as it wore down, and overall, it had a slight
> muffled
> > sound. I eased up on my pick gauge, now I play PickBoy mediums
> with
> > the sandpapery grip. It gets through the strings easily enough on
> > tremolo picked parts, yet it's still stiff enough to give me that
> > precision and tactile feedback in my Al DiMeola-inspired picking
> runs.
> > It's also just thin enough to give my attack just a bit of crisp
> > snap. I turn to the heavy Dunlops now and again on acoustic for
> the
> > sake of volume, but primarily I use medium to medium-heavy picks.
> >
> > Picks are relatively inexpensive to experiment with, so... pick
> out a
> > few different ones on your next trip to the music store. Good
> luck.
