Menu
an observation based on the Chantay's performance at the Jim Pash
benefit:
They performed...
several Buddy Holly songs with vocals
a Righteous Bros song with vocals
and when the guy from the Pyramids (whose name escapes me at the
moment) sat in with them, they did...
at least one Chuck Berry song
And they were SO comfortable doing those numbers, like they'd done 'em
a thousand times before. In fact, they said something like "this is
the kind of stuff we used to play at the Rendevous ballroom when it
was there..."
It made me think, perhaps all these guys were just the better quality
cover bands who were in the right place at the right time, (i.e.
Orange County - early sixties) and took advantage of the situation
that developed, more or less.
Actually, all the high-profile, early rock guitar
instro groups were influenced somewhat by Chet, when
it comes to his technical guitar picking delivery, but
not necessarily with his timing. Remember, he wasn't a
rock 'n' roll guitarist.
But going back to George. When he and I did a dual
guitar concert together in Albuquerque last January
(soon to be released on DVD), I heard some of his
licks that had Ventures written all over it, and I
know he was the originator; not the Ventures.
Yes, Tomsco was not The Ventures only influence, but I
firmly believe that he was the definitive spark to The
Ventures' onset and ultimate style. But only that,
because thereafter the group zoomed past The Fireballs
and all the other instrumental rock bands once "Walk
Don't Run" was released. (The Ventures was also the
group that put The Fender guitar firmly on the map.)
In fact, George told me once that when he heard "Walk
Don't Run" that it was like a speeding freight train
that left his group and all the other instro rock
bands far, far behind.
Of course, don't forget Chuck Berry. His novel licks
have been lifted by just about all of the rock
guitarists, young and old alike.
Dick Stewart
Editor - TLM
--- Marty Tippens <> wrote:
> Easy Red, you're arguing on emotion rather than
> fact. Saying that Tomsco is a formidable guitarist
> is extraneous information and doesn't support the
> notion that the Fireballs were a heavy influence on
> the Ventures. I agree that the Ventures tone is
> similar to the Fireballs but it is also similar to
> the Wailers That can't be helped when a band
> consists of Fender guitars and amps. The Ventures
> songwriting and general playing style owes more to
> the Fabulous Wailers and Chet. Understand that I am
> not saying that the Fireballs had no influence on
> the Ventures, I'm sure they had some influence but
> not a heavy influence.
> -Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: red_thundr
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:17 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the
> Influencers?
>
>
> I'd have to say you're flat out wrong (again).
>
> The Fireballs have a heavy influence on The
> Ventures. Their style
> goes far beyond "Bulldog". The Ventures borrowed
> quite generously
> from Tomsco and company, both stylistically and
> compositionally.
> George T. is definitely no slouch, and while Chet
> Atkins was quite a
> good guitarist, George is rather formidable
> himself. George's style
> is very tasteful, and often makes use of
> complicated chord melodies
> rivaling Chet in complexity. Even the guitar tone
> used by the
> Ventures is pretty much a direct ripoff what
> George T. used at that
> time. One thing you'll notice is the virtual
> absence of any bass
> playing on The Fireballs instrumentals. If you
> add a bassline and
> boosted the drums slightly, you'd be hard pressed
> to tell the
> difference between The Fireballs and The Ventures,
> especially on
> songs such as "Teekee", "Josh", and "Doop".
>
> --- In , "Marty
> Tippens"
> <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > Dick, I'm gonna say your fifth point is an
> overstatement. The
> Ventures certainly heard the Fireballs as they
> covered Bulldog but
> their sound was not greatly inspired by them. The
> early sound of the
> Ventures indicates big inspiration from the
> Fabulous Wailers and Chet
> Atkins.
> > -Marty
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dick Stewart
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who
> Influenced the Influencers?
> >
> >
> > Briefly, the way I see it:
> >
> > First, there was country (called it western
> back
> > then).
> >
> > Second: Elvis came on the scene and put a rock
> 'n'
> > roll spin on country ("That's All Right")
> >
> > Third: Holly, who originally played country,
> was so
> > flipped out over Elvis's new sound, that he
> was
> > influenced by the King to do his own thing.
> >
> > Fourth: Because of Petty's arrangement and
> production
> > genius and Holly's style, along came The
> Fireballs and
> > The String-A-Longs.
> >
> > Fifth: The Ventures were greatly inspired by
> The
> > Fireballs and they took guitar instros to a
> new level.
> >
> > Sixth: Everyone else (except for Duane Eddy
> and one or
> > two others)jumped on the guitar rock instro
> band
> > wagon.
> >
> >
> > Dick Stewart
> > Editor - TLM
> >
> >
> > --- spskins <superchimp9@h...> wrote:
> > > Yeah, I hear it. Plus, his strat with
> slapback
> > > reverb or echo, or
> > > whatever, is a pretty thick, wet sound for
> the
> > > pre-tank era ("Maybe
> > > Baby", That'll Be the Day"), The tom toms in
> "Peggy
> > > Sue" are very Wipe
> > > Out-esque, "Heartbeat" presages
> Latin-influenced
> > > surf, the list goes
> > > on. A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the
> Crickets
> > > would be a hell of
> > > a lot better and make a hell of a lot more
> sense
> > > than The Doors or the
> > > Grateful Dead. There's also the whole
> Fireballs,
> > > Buddy Holly, and
> > > (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> > > producer/writing credit taker
> > > Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> > > --- In , "Dave
> Becker"
> > > <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > > > I wonder if there's any connection between
> the
> > > vocal stylings of Buddy
> > > > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> > > >
> > > > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he
> hard to
> > > catch...
> > > > BWD
> > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From:
> > > > [mailto:]
> > > > >On Behalf Of spskins
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:40 AM
> > > > >To:
> > > > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who
> Influenced the
> > > Influencers?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Don't forget Buddy Holly.
> > > > >--- In ,
> > > "stratrhythm"
> > > > ><lawyerschroeder@s...> wrote:
> > > > >> --- In ,
> Phil Dirt
> > > <phildirt@r...>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> Influences included Link Wray, Duane
> Eddy, the
> > > > >> Ventures, the Fireballs, Johnny and
> the
> > > Hurricanes
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So did Brian I think...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Anyway, who DID influence the
> influencers?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Duanne Eddy?
> > > > >> Gene Autry
> > > > >> Chet Atkins
> > > > >> Link Wray?
> > > > >> "Hambone" (a Local Slide Player)
> > > > >> Western Swing Music
> > > > >> the Ventures?
> > > > >> Chet Atkins
> > > > >> Duane Eddy
> > > > >> Les Paul
> > > > >> GIenn Miller
> > > > >> Tommy Dorsey
> > > > >> Country and Western Music
> > > > >> The Fireballs?
> > > > >> Unknown?
> > > > >> Johnny and the Hurricanes
> > > > >> Jazz greats
> > > > >> Bill Haley
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ...and Chet cites Django as his major
> > > influence. The roots grow deep.
> > > > >
>
=== message truncated ===
Of course they did...and if you gave 10 families who were hungry the choice
between Mcdonalds or a five star gourmet restaurant, I'm sure nine out of ten
would choose Mcdonalds. My point being... Chet's version of Walk Don't Run
(which I've never heard) I'm sure goes over most people's head. But that's
cool...I'm assuming that were not into surf music because we want to study
guitar technique pushed to the max...otherwise we'd be swapping posts in a
totally different group. I think it's mainly the "teenage driving beat" that
draws us into surf. At least me, anyway. A little technique doesn't hurt, but
it's gotta rock. I still say it takes two Ventures to play what 'ol Chet could
easily play by himself.
Cheers
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
I play the Chet fingerstyle version. I was showing off to a few folks with it at
the PCC record swap a couple of years ago. Then a guy took the guitar from me
and played the Ventures single note version. Many more ears perked up with
enthuiastic, "Wow, I remember that!" type of comments.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Bottom line though - The Ventures Walk Don't Run left one HECKUVA longer
lasting impression on the world than did Chet Atkins fingerstyle/jazz version!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Except it took two Ventures to play what one Chet Atkins could!
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Dick, I'm gonna say your fifth point is an overstatement. The Ventures
certainly heard the Fireballs as they covered Bulldog but their sound was not
greatly inspired by them. The early sound of the Ventures indicates big
inspiration from the Fabulous Wailers and Chet Atkins.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Stewart
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Briefly, the way I see it:
First, there was country (called it western back
then).
Second: Elvis came on the scene and put a rock 'n'
roll spin on country ("That's All Right")
Third: Holly, who originally played country, was so
flipped out over Elvis's new sound, that he was
influenced by the King to do his own thing.
Fourth: Because of Petty's arrangement and production
genius and Holly's style, along came The Fireballs and
The String-A-Longs.
Fifth: The Ventures were greatly inspired by The
Fireballs and they took guitar instros to a new level.
Sixth: Everyone else (except for Duane Eddy and one or
two others)jumped on the guitar rock instro band
wagon.
Dick Stewart
Editor - TLM
--- spskins <> wrote:
> Yeah, I hear it. Plus, his strat with slapback
> reverb or echo, or
> whatever, is a pretty thick, wet sound for the
> pre-tank era ("Maybe
> Baby", That'll Be the Day"), The tom toms in "Peggy
> Sue" are very Wipe
> Out-esque, "Heartbeat" presages Latin-influenced
> surf, the list goes
> on. A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the Crickets
> would be a hell of
> a lot better and make a hell of a lot more sense
> than The Doors or the
> Grateful Dead. There's also the whole Fireballs,
> Buddy Holly, and
> (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> producer/writing credit taker
> Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> --- In , "Dave Becker"
> <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > I wonder if there's any connection between the
> vocal stylings of Buddy
> > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> >
> > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he hard to
> catch...
> > BWD
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From:
> > [mailto:]
> > >On Behalf Of spskins
> > >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:40 AM
> > >To:
> > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the
> Influencers?
> > >
> > >
> > >Don't forget Buddy Holly.
> > >--- In ,
> "stratrhythm"
> > ><lawyerschroeder@s...> wrote:
> > >> --- In , Phil Dirt
> <phildirt@r...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> Influences included Link Wray, Duane Eddy, the
> > >> Ventures, the Fireballs, Johnny and the
> Hurricanes
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So did Brian I think...
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, who DID influence the influencers?
> > >>
> > >> Duanne Eddy?
> > >> Gene Autry
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Link Wray?
> > >> "Hambone" (a Local Slide Player)
> > >> Western Swing Music
> > >> the Ventures?
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Duane Eddy
> > >> Les Paul
> > >> GIenn Miller
> > >> Tommy Dorsey
> > >> Country and Western Music
> > >> The Fireballs?
> > >> Unknown?
> > >> Johnny and the Hurricanes
> > >> Jazz greats
> > >> Bill Haley
> > >>
> > >> ...and Chet cites Django as his major
> influence. The roots grow deep.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >Visit
> for archived
> > messages,
> > >bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
.
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No, you're definitely wrong, Marty.
The Ventures borrow heavily from The Fireballs. There is very little
"Chet" I hear in the Ventures, aside from the occasional country-ish
run. There is a lot more "George" than "Chet". I suggest you listen
a whole lot more closely to the Fireballs catalog in addition to
Tomsco's late 50s studio guitarist work at Norman Petty. Even after
The Ventures switched to Mosrites, the tone still copied George
Tomsco's. The Ventures were even so bold as to much rip off George's
style completely on "Percolator". You can't convince me that The
Ventures didn't borrow considerably from The Fireballs, if not
outright rip them off from time to time.
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
> Easy Red, you're arguing on emotion rather than fact. Saying that
Tomsco is a formidable guitarist is extraneous information and doesn't
support the notion that the Fireballs were a heavy influence on the
Ventures. I agree that the Ventures tone is similar to the Fireballs
but it is also similar to the Wailers That can't be helped when a band
consists of Fender guitars and amps. The Ventures songwriting and
general playing style owes more to the Fabulous Wailers and Chet.
Understand that I am not saying that the Fireballs had no influence on
the Ventures, I'm sure they had some influence but not a heavy influence.
> -Marty
>
I've been listening to quite a bit of Fireballs lately and always have. They're
one of my favorites. I can understand where you're coming from in that Fireballs
play single note style with Fender guitars and Amps but you need to revisit the
Fabulous Wailers's recordings to hear a much more direct influence.
The Ventures influence from Chet was obviously not so much in style but very
much in the way of song selection. In addition, The Ventures put many double
stops in their lead melodies. I beleive that was under the influence of Chet.
The Fireballs rarely used double-stops.
The Ventures did not rip off the Fireballs on Percolator. They ripped off Billy
Joe and the Checkmates.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: red_thundr
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 5:32 PM
Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
No, you're definitely wrong, Marty.
The Ventures borrow heavily from The Fireballs. There is very little
"Chet" I hear in the Ventures, aside from the occasional country-ish
run. There is a lot more "George" than "Chet". I suggest you listen
a whole lot more closely to the Fireballs catalog in addition to
Tomsco's late 50s studio guitarist work at Norman Petty. Even after
The Ventures switched to Mosrites, the tone still copied George
Tomsco's. The Ventures were even so bold as to much rip off George's
style completely on "Percolator". You can't convince me that The
Ventures didn't borrow considerably from The Fireballs, if not
outright rip them off from time to time.
--- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
> Easy Red, you're arguing on emotion rather than fact. Saying that
Tomsco is a formidable guitarist is extraneous information and doesn't
support the notion that the Fireballs were a heavy influence on the
Ventures. I agree that the Ventures tone is similar to the Fireballs
but it is also similar to the Wailers That can't be helped when a band
consists of Fender guitars and amps. The Ventures songwriting and
general playing style owes more to the Fabulous Wailers and Chet.
Understand that I am not saying that the Fireballs had no influence on
the Ventures, I'm sure they had some influence but not a heavy influence.
> -Marty
>
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm guessing that neither the Ventures nor Tomsco were the originator of such
licks in most cases. A lot of good rock guitar preceded those guys. In addition,
you'll hear most of the licks from the Ventures first albums on The Fabulous
Wailers earlier recordings.
That's a very humble comment from George concerning "Walk Don't Run". The truth
is that Tomsco was a more advanced player than the lead guitarist on Walk Don't
Run. Bob Bogle was somewhat of a beginner when they recorded that. Now Nokie,
that's another story.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Stewart
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
...But going back to George. When he and I did a dual
guitar concert together in Albuquerque last January
(soon to be released on DVD), I heard some of his
licks that had Ventures written all over it, and I
know he was the originator; not the Ventures.
Yes, Tomsco was not The Ventures only influence, but I
firmly believe that he was the definitive spark to The
Ventures' onset and ultimate style. But only that,
because thereafter the group zoomed past The Fireballs
and all the other instrumental rock bands once "Walk
Don't Run" was released. (The Ventures was also the
group that put The Fender guitar firmly on the map.)
In fact, George told me once that when he heard "Walk
Don't Run" that it was like a speeding freight train
that left his group and all the other instro rock
bands far, far behind...
Dick Stewart
Editor - TLM
--- Marty Tippens <> wrote:
> Easy Red, you're arguing on emotion rather than
> fact. Saying that Tomsco is a formidable guitarist
> is extraneous information and doesn't support the
> notion that the Fireballs were a heavy influence on
> the Ventures. I agree that the Ventures tone is
> similar to the Fireballs but it is also similar to
> the Wailers That can't be helped when a band
> consists of Fender guitars and amps. The Ventures
> songwriting and general playing style owes more to
> the Fabulous Wailers and Chet. Understand that I am
> not saying that the Fireballs had no influence on
> the Ventures, I'm sure they had some influence but
> not a heavy influence.
> -Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: red_thundr
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:17 PM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the
> Influencers?
>
>
> I'd have to say you're flat out wrong (again).
>
> The Fireballs have a heavy influence on The
> Ventures. Their style
> goes far beyond "Bulldog". The Ventures borrowed
> quite generously
> from Tomsco and company, both stylistically and
> compositionally.
> George T. is definitely no slouch, and while Chet
> Atkins was quite a
> good guitarist, George is rather formidable
> himself. George's style
> is very tasteful, and often makes use of
> complicated chord melodies
> rivaling Chet in complexity. Even the guitar tone
> used by the
> Ventures is pretty much a direct ripoff what
> George T. used at that
> time. One thing you'll notice is the virtual
> absence of any bass
> playing on The Fireballs instrumentals. If you
> add a bassline and
> boosted the drums slightly, you'd be hard pressed
> to tell the
> difference between The Fireballs and The Ventures,
> especially on
> songs such as "Teekee", "Josh", and "Doop".
>
> --- In , "Marty
> Tippens"
> <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > Dick, I'm gonna say your fifth point is an
> overstatement. The
> Ventures certainly heard the Fireballs as they
> covered Bulldog but
> their sound was not greatly inspired by them. The
> early sound of the
> Ventures indicates big inspiration from the
> Fabulous Wailers and Chet
> Atkins.
> > -Marty
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dick Stewart
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who
> Influenced the Influencers?
> >
> >
> > Briefly, the way I see it:
> >
> > First, there was country (called it western
> back
> > then).
> >
> > Second: Elvis came on the scene and put a rock
> 'n'
> > roll spin on country ("That's All Right")
> >
> > Third: Holly, who originally played country,
> was so
> > flipped out over Elvis's new sound, that he
> was
> > influenced by the King to do his own thing.
> >
> > Fourth: Because of Petty's arrangement and
> production
> > genius and Holly's style, along came The
> Fireballs and
> > The String-A-Longs.
> >
> > Fifth: The Ventures were greatly inspired by
> The
> > Fireballs and they took guitar instros to a
> new level.
> >
> > Sixth: Everyone else (except for Duane Eddy
> and one or
> > two others)jumped on the guitar rock instro
> band
> > wagon.
> >
> >
> > Dick Stewart
> > Editor - TLM
> >
> >
> > --- spskins <superchimp9@h...> wrote:
> > > Yeah, I hear it. Plus, his strat with
> slapback
> > > reverb or echo, or
> > > whatever, is a pretty thick, wet sound for
> the
> > > pre-tank era ("Maybe
> > > Baby", That'll Be the Day"), The tom toms in
> "Peggy
> > > Sue" are very Wipe
> > > Out-esque, "Heartbeat" presages
> Latin-influenced
> > > surf, the list goes
> > > on. A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the
> Crickets
> > > would be a hell of
> > > a lot better and make a hell of a lot more
> sense
> > > than The Doors or the
> > > Grateful Dead. There's also the whole
> Fireballs,
> > > Buddy Holly, and
> > > (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> > > producer/writing credit taker
> > > Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> > > --- In , "Dave
> Becker"
> > > <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > > > I wonder if there's any connection between
> the
> > > vocal stylings of Buddy
> > > > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> > > >
> > > > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he
> hard to
> > > catch...
> > > > BWD
> > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From:
> > > > [mailto:]
> > > > >On Behalf Of spskins
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:40 AM
> > > > >To:
> > > > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who
> Influenced the
> > > Influencers?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Don't forget Buddy Holly.
> > > > >--- In ,
> > > "stratrhythm"
> > > > ><lawyerschroeder@s...> wrote:
> > > > >> --- In ,
> Phil Dirt
> > > <phildirt@r...>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> Influences included Link Wray, Duane
> Eddy, the
> > > > >> Ventures, the Fireballs, Johnny and
> the
> > > Hurricanes
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So did Brian I think...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Anyway, who DID influence the
> influencers?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Duanne Eddy?
> > > > >> Gene Autry
> > > > >> Chet Atkins
> > > > >> Link Wray?
> > > > >> "Hambone" (a Local Slide Player)
> > > > >> Western Swing Music
> > > > >> the Ventures?
> > > > >> Chet Atkins
> > > > >> Duane Eddy
> > > > >> Les Paul
> > > > >> GIenn Miller
> > > > >> Tommy Dorsey
> > > > >> Country and Western Music
> > > > >> The Fireballs?
> > > > >> Unknown?
> > > > >> Johnny and the Hurricanes
> > > > >> Jazz greats
> > > > >> Bill Haley
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ...and Chet cites Django as his major
> > > influence. The roots grow deep.
> > > > >
>
=== message truncated ===
.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Of course a surf tribute to Buddy and the Crickets would make more sense than
one to the Doors or the Grateful Dead but not making sense is often more
interesting. For example, I find a bluegrass tribute to the Bealtes more
interesting than yet another bluegrass tribute to Bill Monroe. And classical
piano treatment of Bill Monroe songs would be more interesting than another
classical piano tribute to Beethoven.
-Marty
--- spskins <> wrote:
> ...A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the Crickets
> would be a hell of
> a lot better and make a hell of a lot more sense
> than The Doors or the
> Grateful Dead. There's also the whole Fireballs,
> Buddy Holly, and
> (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> producer/writing credit taker
> Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> --- In , "Dave Becker"
> <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > I wonder if there's any connection between the
> vocal stylings of Buddy
> > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> >
> > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he hard to
> catch...
> > BWD
> >
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A surf tribute to Bill Monroe would be really cool. Or expand it to
Earl Scruggs as well. It would be interesting to hear some peoples
picking skills with the Scruggs stuff and Monroe's mandolin could be
done well with surf guitar.
A surf tribute to Buddy Holly would be great. So many great songs. I
was born the day the music died. A couple decades later but the day
the music died and I am tone deaf.
-- In , "Marty Tippens" <mctippens@e...>
wrote:
> Of course a surf tribute to Buddy and the Crickets would make more
sense than one to the Doors or the Grateful Dead but not making sense
is often more interesting. For example, I find a bluegrass tribute to
the Bealtes more interesting than yet another bluegrass tribute to
Bill Monroe. And classical piano treatment of Bill Monroe songs would
be more interesting than another classical piano tribute to Beethoven.
> -Marty
>
> --- spskins <superchimp9@h...> wrote:
> > ...A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the Crickets
> > would be a hell of
> > a lot better and make a hell of a lot more sense
> > than The Doors or the
> > Grateful Dead. There's also the whole Fireballs,
> > Buddy Holly, and
> > (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> > producer/writing credit taker
> > Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> > --- In , "Dave Becker"
> > <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > > I wonder if there's any connection between the
> > vocal stylings of Buddy
> > > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> > >
> > > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he hard to
> > catch...
> > > BWD
> > >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is a debate that could go on indefinitely. It comes down to a question of
delivery. If you were big into bluegrass and jazz, of course you'd tend to
prefer Chet Atkins' stylings on most any song. But could his typical rendering
be called "immediate"; "urgent"; or "driving"?
How about the tone of the main guitar? Would Chet Atkins' sound be more
accurately described as "Intense, urgent and hard-driving" or "Genteel, laden
with technique and laid-back"?
Most Rock & Roll fans took instantly to The Ventures' version of Walk Don't Run
because of Bogle and Wilson's intuitive understanding of their target audience,
and what would create the most immediate and positive response within that
audience.
They simplified an arty jazz composition, added prominent drums, (which were
extremely subdued on Atkin's rendering), and what I consider "to-die-for" tones
from both rhythm and lead guitars. The song as they played it conveyed a sense
of urgency and immediacy, which was totally infectious, a quality of sound they
were never quite able to duplicate in subsequent recordings, (nor anyone else
for that matter).
It's quite ELITIST IMHO to equate The Ventures' Walk Don't Run with Mickey
Dee's, while implicitly equating Atkins' more arty version with a 5-star gourmet
restaurant. Please allow me to expand and clarify:
In Autumn 1960, when I first heard The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, I was 8 years
old, studying Classical Violin and Piano on a scholarship to the Hart College of
Music in Hartford, Connecticut. My teachers considered me a musical prodigy.
My parents' dream was for me to become a Classical Concert soloist ala Yascha
Heifetz. My days and nights were totally given over to the most intensive
studies of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Chopin, Lizst, Schubert, and numerous
other composers, against whom Chet Atkins could be considered as cultural "junk
food". My "ear" was definitely attuned to the most artistically crafted and
executed, most timeless music of modern history! Definitely L'Escoffier as
opposed to burgers, fries, (and hominy grits in Atkins' case).
IMHO measured against even the most exacting Classical standards of composition,
arrangement and execution, The Ventures blew Mr. Atkins right off the playing
field because they were able to wring the ultimate emotional force from that
Johnny Smith tune. Their rendition can only be described as "Classic", and the
fact that 45 years later, The Ventures' version of Walk Don't Run remains the
definitive version of the song is because they communicated PASSION, while
Atkins communicated more of a cerebral, contrived technical ability.
When judging "artistic expression", feeling is much more crucial than technique,
and this rule applies 24 hours of every day of every year!
It is no understatement to say that my first hearing, (by complete accident) of
The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, was a slow-acting catalyst which almost
single-handedly, caused me, eight years later, to halt my Classical Music
studies, (even with a scholarship offer to The Peabody Institute), and take up
guitar. And when I did, the very first song I dedicated myself to learning was
Walk Don't Run, Ventures-Style!!
The Ventures influences weren't just the contemporary recording artists of the
late 50's, but also included quite a bit of classical music, as evidenced by
covers they recorded on various of their 1960's albums. In terms of modern
Neo-Classic themes, their delivery of Richard Rogers' "Slaughter on 10th Avenue"
stands out as one of the most stunning Rock Instro recordings of the 1960's.
Other influences that appear in their early recordings were two of the best
Bands of the Swing Era: Duke Ellington (Caravan) and Harry James (Flight of The
Bumble Bee).
Sorry Dan, the Mickey Dees reference is way off the mark!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Of course they did...and if you gave 10 families who were hungry the choice
between Mcdonalds or a five star gourmet restaurant, I'm sure nine out of ten
would choose Mcdonalds. My point being... Chet's version of Walk Don't Run
(which I've never heard) I'm sure goes over most people's head. But that's
cool...I'm assuming that were not into surf music because we want to study
guitar technique pushed to the max...otherwise we'd be swapping posts in a
totally different group. I think it's mainly the "teenage driving beat" that
draws us into surf. At least me, anyway. A little technique doesn't hurt, but
it's gotta rock. I still say it takes two Ventures to play what 'ol Chet could
easily play by himself.
Cheers
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
I play the Chet fingerstyle version. I was showing off to a few folks with it at
the PCC record swap a couple of years ago. Then a guy took the guitar from me
and played the Ventures single note version. Many more ears perked up with
enthuiastic, "Wow, I remember that!" type of comments.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Bottom line though - The Ventures Walk Don't Run left one HECKUVA longer
lasting impression on the world than did Chet Atkins fingerstyle/jazz version!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Except it took two Ventures to play what one Chet Atkins could!
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Dick, I'm gonna say your fifth point is an overstatement. The Ventures
certainly heard the Fireballs as they covered Bulldog but their sound was not
greatly inspired by them. The early sound of the Ventures indicates big
inspiration from the Fabulous Wailers and Chet Atkins.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Stewart
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Briefly, the way I see it:
First, there was country (called it western back
then).
Second: Elvis came on the scene and put a rock 'n'
roll spin on country ("That's All Right")
Third: Holly, who originally played country, was so
flipped out over Elvis's new sound, that he was
influenced by the King to do his own thing.
Fourth: Because of Petty's arrangement and production
genius and Holly's style, along came The Fireballs and
The String-A-Longs.
Fifth: The Ventures were greatly inspired by The
Fireballs and they took guitar instros to a new level.
Sixth: Everyone else (except for Duane Eddy and one or
two others)jumped on the guitar rock instro band
wagon.
Dick Stewart
Editor - TLM
--- spskins <> wrote:
> Yeah, I hear it. Plus, his strat with slapback
> reverb or echo, or
> whatever, is a pretty thick, wet sound for the
> pre-tank era ("Maybe
> Baby", That'll Be the Day"), The tom toms in "Peggy
> Sue" are very Wipe
> Out-esque, "Heartbeat" presages Latin-influenced
> surf, the list goes
> on. A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the Crickets
> would be a hell of
> a lot better and make a hell of a lot more sense
> than The Doors or the
> Grateful Dead. There's also the whole Fireballs,
> Buddy Holly, and
> (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> producer/writing credit taker
> Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> --- In , "Dave Becker"
> <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > I wonder if there's any connection between the
> vocal stylings of Buddy
> > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> >
> > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he hard to
> catch...
> > BWD
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From:
> > [mailto:]
> > >On Behalf Of spskins
> > >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:40 AM
> > >To:
> > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the
> Influencers?
> > >
> > >
> > >Don't forget Buddy Holly.
> > >--- In ,
> "stratrhythm"
> > ><lawyerschroeder@s...> wrote:
> > >> --- In , Phil Dirt
> <phildirt@r...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> Influences included Link Wray, Duane Eddy, the
> > >> Ventures, the Fireballs, Johnny and the
> Hurricanes
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So did Brian I think...
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, who DID influence the influencers?
> > >>
> > >> Duanne Eddy?
> > >> Gene Autry
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Link Wray?
> > >> "Hambone" (a Local Slide Player)
> > >> Western Swing Music
> > >> the Ventures?
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Duane Eddy
> > >> Les Paul
> > >> GIenn Miller
> > >> Tommy Dorsey
> > >> Country and Western Music
> > >> The Fireballs?
> > >> Unknown?
> > >> Johnny and the Hurricanes
> > >> Jazz greats
> > >> Bill Haley
> > >>
> > >> ...and Chet cites Django as his major
> influence. The roots grow deep.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >Visit
> for archived
> > messages,
> > >bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
.
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Bruce,
You're only looking at one metric when there are several to consider. Sure we
hear great "emotional force" in the Ventures version of Walk Don't Run with it's
loud single note simplicity and crashing drums that appeal most to the least
common denominator (a group that I happily include myself in). But Chet's
version of Walk Don't Run has equal if not more emotional force. It's just
measured under a different metric, that of more interesting harmony and
technique. Can anyone make with the loud and crashing and come across as well as
the Ventures? No. Can anyone make with the fancy fingerwork and interesting
harmony the way Chet did? No.
Now on the metric of musicianship, Chet's style requires more training. It's
much harder to put forth the emotional content with a single guitar, creating
bass, harmony and melody. I'm more impressed when someone can produce intensity
that way than I am by intensity produced from amps and drums. But I still eat at
Mc Donalds more often than I do at better places just as I listen to the
Ventures more than Chet (and Chet more than Segovia).
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
This is a debate that could go on indefinitely. It comes down to a question
of delivery. If you were big into bluegrass and jazz, of course you'd tend to
prefer Chet Atkins' stylings on most any song. But could his typical rendering
be called "immediate"; "urgent"; or "driving"?
How about the tone of the main guitar? Would Chet Atkins' sound be more
accurately described as "Intense, urgent and hard-driving" or "Genteel, laden
with technique and laid-back"?
Most Rock & Roll fans took instantly to The Ventures' version of Walk Don't
Run because of Bogle and Wilson's intuitive understanding of their target
audience, and what would create the most immediate and positive response within
that audience.
They simplified an arty jazz composition, added prominent drums, (which were
extremely subdued on Atkin's rendering), and what I consider "to-die-for" tones
from both rhythm and lead guitars. The song as they played it conveyed a sense
of urgency and immediacy, which was totally infectious, a quality of sound they
were never quite able to duplicate in subsequent recordings, (nor anyone else
for that matter).
It's quite ELITIST IMHO to equate The Ventures' Walk Don't Run with Mickey
Dee's, while implicitly equating Atkins' more arty version with a 5-star gourmet
restaurant. Please allow me to expand and clarify:
In Autumn 1960, when I first heard The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, I was 8 years
old, studying Classical Violin and Piano on a scholarship to the Hart College of
Music in Hartford, Connecticut. My teachers considered me a musical prodigy.
My parents' dream was for me to become a Classical Concert soloist ala Yascha
Heifetz. My days and nights were totally given over to the most intensive
studies of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Chopin, Lizst, Schubert, and numerous
other composers, against whom Chet Atkins could be considered as cultural "junk
food". My "ear" was definitely attuned to the most artistically crafted and
executed, most timeless music of modern history! Definitely L'Escoffier as
opposed to burgers, fries, (and hominy grits in Atkins' case).
IMHO measured against even the most exacting Classical standards of
composition, arrangement and execution, The Ventures blew Mr. Atkins right off
the playing field because they were able to wring the ultimate emotional force
from that Johnny Smith tune. Their rendition can only be described as
"Classic", and the fact that 45 years later, The Ventures' version of Walk Don't
Run remains the definitive version of the song is because they communicated
PASSION, while Atkins communicated more of a cerebral, contrived technical
ability.
When judging "artistic expression", feeling is much more crucial than
technique, and this rule applies 24 hours of every day of every year!
It is no understatement to say that my first hearing, (by complete accident)
of The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, was a slow-acting catalyst which almost
single-handedly, caused me, eight years later, to halt my Classical Music
studies, (even with a scholarship offer to The Peabody Institute), and take up
guitar. And when I did, the very first song I dedicated myself to learning was
Walk Don't Run, Ventures-Style!!
The Ventures influences weren't just the contemporary recording artists of the
late 50's, but also included quite a bit of classical music, as evidenced by
covers they recorded on various of their 1960's albums. In terms of modern
Neo-Classic themes, their delivery of Richard Rogers' "Slaughter on 10th Avenue"
stands out as one of the most stunning Rock Instro recordings of the 1960's.
Other influences that appear in their early recordings were two of the best
Bands of the Swing Era: Duke Ellington (Caravan) and Harry James (Flight of The
Bumble Bee).
Sorry Dan, the Mickey Dees reference is way off the mark!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Of course they did...and if you gave 10 families who were hungry the choice
between Mcdonalds or a five star gourmet restaurant, I'm sure nine out of ten
would choose Mcdonalds. My point being... Chet's version of Walk Don't Run
(which I've never heard) I'm sure goes over most people's head. But that's
cool...I'm assuming that were not into surf music because we want to study
guitar technique pushed to the max...otherwise we'd be swapping posts in a
totally different group. I think it's mainly the "teenage driving beat" that
draws us into surf. At least me, anyway. A little technique doesn't hurt, but
it's gotta rock. I still say it takes two Ventures to play what 'ol Chet could
easily play by himself.
Cheers
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
I play the Chet fingerstyle version. I was showing off to a few folks with it
at the PCC record swap a couple of years ago. Then a guy took the guitar from me
and played the Ventures single note version. Many more ears perked up with
enthuiastic, "Wow, I remember that!" type of comments.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Bottom line though - The Ventures Walk Don't Run left one HECKUVA longer
lasting impression on the world than did Chet Atkins fingerstyle/jazz version!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Except it took two Ventures to play what one Chet Atkins could!
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Dick, I'm gonna say your fifth point is an overstatement. The Ventures
certainly heard the Fireballs as they covered Bulldog but their sound was not
greatly inspired by them. The early sound of the Ventures indicates big
inspiration from the Fabulous Wailers and Chet Atkins.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Stewart
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Briefly, the way I see it:
First, there was country (called it western back
then).
Second: Elvis came on the scene and put a rock 'n'
roll spin on country ("That's All Right")
Third: Holly, who originally played country, was so
flipped out over Elvis's new sound, that he was
influenced by the King to do his own thing.
Fourth: Because of Petty's arrangement and production
genius and Holly's style, along came The Fireballs and
The String-A-Longs.
Fifth: The Ventures were greatly inspired by The
Fireballs and they took guitar instros to a new level.
Sixth: Everyone else (except for Duane Eddy and one or
two others)jumped on the guitar rock instro band
wagon.
Dick Stewart
Editor - TLM
--- spskins <> wrote:
> Yeah, I hear it. Plus, his strat with slapback
> reverb or echo, or
> whatever, is a pretty thick, wet sound for the
> pre-tank era ("Maybe
> Baby", That'll Be the Day"), The tom toms in "Peggy
> Sue" are very Wipe
> Out-esque, "Heartbeat" presages Latin-influenced
> surf, the list goes
> on. A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the Crickets
> would be a hell of
> a lot better and make a hell of a lot more sense
> than The Doors or the
> Grateful Dead. There's also the whole Fireballs,
> Buddy Holly, and
> (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> producer/writing credit taker
> Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> --- In , "Dave Becker"
> <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > I wonder if there's any connection between the
> vocal stylings of Buddy
> > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> >
> > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he hard to
> catch...
> > BWD
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From:
> > [mailto:]
> > >On Behalf Of spskins
> > >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:40 AM
> > >To:
> > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the
> Influencers?
> > >
> > >
> > >Don't forget Buddy Holly.
> > >--- In ,
> "stratrhythm"
> > ><lawyerschroeder@s...> wrote:
> > >> --- In , Phil Dirt
> <phildirt@r...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> Influences included Link Wray, Duane Eddy, the
> > >> Ventures, the Fireballs, Johnny and the
> Hurricanes
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So did Brian I think...
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, who DID influence the influencers?
> > >>
> > >> Duanne Eddy?
> > >> Gene Autry
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Link Wray?
> > >> "Hambone" (a Local Slide Player)
> > >> Western Swing Music
> > >> the Ventures?
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Duane Eddy
> > >> Les Paul
> > >> GIenn Miller
> > >> Tommy Dorsey
> > >> Country and Western Music
> > >> The Fireballs?
> > >> Unknown?
> > >> Johnny and the Hurricanes
> > >> Jazz greats
> > >> Bill Haley
> > >>
> > >> ...and Chet cites Django as his major
> influence. The roots grow deep.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >Visit
> for archived
> > messages,
> > >bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marty -
Did you ever see Amadeus? The point I was making, as one whose early training
in music theory taught me how to differentiate between great moving music,
versus mechanical and highly technical renderings, is that artistry is the
communication, with the least embellishment, of a powerful emotional message.
That, Marty, is the Artist's ultimate goal.
Respect the craftsman, but in Amadeus, I think the message came through loud and
clear that Mozart, the boy genius trumped Saliere, the court-composer, because
as technically excellent as Saliere was, for all the fancy, elaborate frills and
fills, harmonies and interesting embellishments evident in Saliere's music, it
was nowhere near as emotionally powerful as was Mozart's.
Based on his phenomenal Artistry and Creativity, Mozart is the one the world
remembers. (Just what metric are we missing here?)
That's the difference, IMHO between Atkins' and The Ventures' delivery of the
same song.
Atkins played Walk Don't Run as a literal cover of Johnny Smith's original.
(Zero on the Creativity Metric/9.5 on the Craftsmanship Metric).
The Ventures, on the other hand, took what they felt were the song's most vital
elements, and made this tune over, creating something fresh and new - an
unforgettable classic, (9.5 on the Creativity Metric/7.5-8.0 on the
Craftsmanship Metric).
What The Ventures did, based on generally accepted definitions, best fits the
description of "art". I'm not putting Chet down, but no-one should put down The
Ventures' elegant, artistic creativity as "lowest common denominator" or
"McDonalds" because they didn't happen to be at a virtuouso's level of
craftsmanship.
The Ventures created and delivered something that 45 years later, is still
considered "Essential" listening for anyone interested in the history of Rock
Music. Nothing recorded by Hendrix, Page, Beck, Clapton, or Nugent, or Chet
Atkins, can take that away from them.
In that sense, they've accomplished a kind of immortality, somewhat akin to the
fact that centuries later, we remember Mozart, and have utterly forgotten
Saliere. Does anyone, even jokingly, ever refer to Mozart as "lowest common
denominator"?????
Just my 'umble opinion, guv'nor, which I'm sure is no more valid than yours.
Bruce D
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Bruce,
You're only looking at one metric when there are several to consider. Sure we
hear great "emotional force" in the Ventures version of Walk Don't Run with it's
loud single note simplicity and crashing drums that appeal most to the least
common denominator (a group that I happily include myself in). But Chet's
version of Walk Don't Run has equal if not more emotional force. It's just
measured under a different metric, that of more interesting harmony and
technique. Can anyone make with the loud and crashing and come across as well as
the Ventures? No. Can anyone make with the fancy fingerwork and interesting
harmony the way Chet did? No.
Now on the metric of musicianship, Chet's style requires more training. It's
much harder to put forth the emotional content with a single guitar, creating
bass, harmony and melody. I'm more impressed when someone can produce intensity
that way than I am by intensity produced from amps and drums. But I still eat at
Mc Donalds more often than I do at better places just as I listen to the
Ventures more than Chet (and Chet more than Segovia).
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
This is a debate that could go on indefinitely. It comes down to a question
of delivery. If you were big into bluegrass and jazz, of course you'd tend to
prefer Chet Atkins' stylings on most any song. But could his typical rendering
be called "immediate"; "urgent"; or "driving"?
How about the tone of the main guitar? Would Chet Atkins' sound be more
accurately described as "Intense, urgent and hard-driving" or "Genteel, laden
with technique and laid-back"?
Most Rock & Roll fans took instantly to The Ventures' version of Walk Don't
Run because of Bogle and Wilson's intuitive understanding of their target
audience, and what would create the most immediate and positive response within
that audience.
They simplified an arty jazz composition, added prominent drums, (which were
extremely subdued on Atkin's rendering), and what I consider "to-die-for" tones
from both rhythm and lead guitars. The song as they played it conveyed a sense
of urgency and immediacy, which was totally infectious, a quality of sound they
were never quite able to duplicate in subsequent recordings, (nor anyone else
for that matter).
It's quite ELITIST IMHO to equate The Ventures' Walk Don't Run with Mickey
Dee's, while implicitly equating Atkins' more arty version with a 5-star gourmet
restaurant. Please allow me to expand and clarify:
In Autumn 1960, when I first heard The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, I was 8 years
old, studying Classical Violin and Piano on a scholarship to the Hart College of
Music in Hartford, Connecticut. My teachers considered me a musical prodigy.
My parents' dream was for me to become a Classical Concert soloist ala Yascha
Heifetz. My days and nights were totally given over to the most intensive
studies of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Chopin, Lizst, Schubert, and numerous
other composers, against whom Chet Atkins could be considered as cultural "junk
food". My "ear" was definitely attuned to the most artistically crafted and
executed, most timeless music of modern history! Definitely L'Escoffier as
opposed to burgers, fries, (and hominy grits in Atkins' case).
IMHO measured against even the most exacting Classical standards of
composition, arrangement and execution, The Ventures blew Mr. Atkins right off
the playing field because they were able to wring the ultimate emotional force
from that Johnny Smith tune. Their rendition can only be described as
"Classic", and the fact that 45 years later, The Ventures' version of Walk Don't
Run remains the definitive version of the song is because they communicated
PASSION, while Atkins communicated more of a cerebral, contrived technical
ability.
When judging "artistic expression", feeling is much more crucial than
technique, and this rule applies 24 hours of every day of every year!
It is no understatement to say that my first hearing, (by complete accident)
of The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, was a slow-acting catalyst which almost
single-handedly, caused me, eight years later, to halt my Classical Music
studies, (even with a scholarship offer to The Peabody Institute), and take up
guitar. And when I did, the very first song I dedicated myself to learning was
Walk Don't Run, Ventures-Style!!
The Ventures influences weren't just the contemporary recording artists of the
late 50's, but also included quite a bit of classical music, as evidenced by
covers they recorded on various of their 1960's albums. In terms of modern
Neo-Classic themes, their delivery of Richard Rogers' "Slaughter on 10th Avenue"
stands out as one of the most stunning Rock Instro recordings of the 1960's.
Other influences that appear in their early recordings were two of the best
Bands of the Swing Era: Duke Ellington (Caravan) and Harry James (Flight of The
Bumble Bee).
Sorry Dan, the Mickey Dees reference is way off the mark!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Of course they did...and if you gave 10 families who were hungry the choice
between Mcdonalds or a five star gourmet restaurant, I'm sure nine out of ten
would choose Mcdonalds. My point being... Chet's version of Walk Don't Run
(which I've never heard) I'm sure goes over most people's head. But that's
cool...I'm assuming that were not into surf music because we want to study
guitar technique pushed to the max...otherwise we'd be swapping posts in a
totally different group. I think it's mainly the "teenage driving beat" that
draws us into surf. At least me, anyway. A little technique doesn't hurt, but
it's gotta rock. I still say it takes two Ventures to play what 'ol Chet could
easily play by himself.
Cheers
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
I play the Chet fingerstyle version. I was showing off to a few folks with it
at the PCC record swap a couple of years ago. Then a guy took the guitar from me
and played the Ventures single note version. Many more ears perked up with
enthuiastic, "Wow, I remember that!" type of comments.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Bottom line though - The Ventures Walk Don't Run left one HECKUVA longer
lasting impression on the world than did Chet Atkins fingerstyle/jazz version!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Except it took two Ventures to play what one Chet Atkins could!
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Dick, I'm gonna say your fifth point is an overstatement. The Ventures
certainly heard the Fireballs as they covered Bulldog but their sound was not
greatly inspired by them. The early sound of the Ventures indicates big
inspiration from the Fabulous Wailers and Chet Atkins.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Stewart
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Briefly, the way I see it:
First, there was country (called it western back
then).
Second: Elvis came on the scene and put a rock 'n'
roll spin on country ("That's All Right")
Third: Holly, who originally played country, was so
flipped out over Elvis's new sound, that he was
influenced by the King to do his own thing.
Fourth: Because of Petty's arrangement and production
genius and Holly's style, along came The Fireballs and
The String-A-Longs.
Fifth: The Ventures were greatly inspired by The
Fireballs and they took guitar instros to a new level.
Sixth: Everyone else (except for Duane Eddy and one or
two others)jumped on the guitar rock instro band
wagon.
Dick Stewart
Editor - TLM
--- spskins <> wrote:
> Yeah, I hear it. Plus, his strat with slapback
> reverb or echo, or
> whatever, is a pretty thick, wet sound for the
> pre-tank era ("Maybe
> Baby", That'll Be the Day"), The tom toms in "Peggy
> Sue" are very Wipe
> Out-esque, "Heartbeat" presages Latin-influenced
> surf, the list goes
> on. A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the Crickets
> would be a hell of
> a lot better and make a hell of a lot more sense
> than The Doors or the
> Grateful Dead. There's also the whole Fireballs,
> Buddy Holly, and
> (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> producer/writing credit taker
> Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> --- In , "Dave Becker"
> <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > I wonder if there's any connection between the
> vocal stylings of Buddy
> > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> >
> > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he hard to
> catch...
> > BWD
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From:
> > [mailto:]
> > >On Behalf Of spskins
> > >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:40 AM
> > >To:
> > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the
> Influencers?
> > >
> > >
> > >Don't forget Buddy Holly.
> > >--- In ,
> "stratrhythm"
> > ><lawyerschroeder@s...> wrote:
> > >> --- In , Phil Dirt
> <phildirt@r...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> Influences included Link Wray, Duane Eddy, the
> > >> Ventures, the Fireballs, Johnny and the
> Hurricanes
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So did Brian I think...
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, who DID influence the influencers?
> > >>
> > >> Duanne Eddy?
> > >> Gene Autry
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Link Wray?
> > >> "Hambone" (a Local Slide Player)
> > >> Western Swing Music
> > >> the Ventures?
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Duane Eddy
> > >> Les Paul
> > >> GIenn Miller
> > >> Tommy Dorsey
> > >> Country and Western Music
> > >> The Fireballs?
> > >> Unknown?
> > >> Johnny and the Hurricanes
> > >> Jazz greats
> > >> Bill Haley
> > >>
> > >> ...and Chet cites Django as his major
> influence. The roots grow deep.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >Visit
> for archived
> > messages,
> > >bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
.
Visit for archived messages,
bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
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The Ventures' profile is certainly on the wan just as Saliere's. I'm sure Chet
is not well remembered by the common folks either. Yes, the Ventures came up
with a clever arrangement. Yes, Chet's version was closer to the original in
that he kept the swing feel but he did turn it into a nice solo guitar piece
with clever walking bass and original and fantastic harmony. None of this
changes the idea that The Ventures version is loud fast and simple and
satisfying, like fast food. Chet's version is a more relaxed dinner at a nicer
restaurant.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Marty -
Did you ever see Amadeus? The point I was making, as one whose early training
in music theory taught me how to differentiate between great moving music,
versus mechanical and highly technical renderings, is that artistry is the
communication, with the least embellishment, of a powerful emotional message.
That, Marty, is the Artist's ultimate goal.
Respect the craftsman, but in Amadeus, I think the message came through loud
and clear that Mozart, the boy genius trumped Saliere, the court-composer,
because as technically excellent as Saliere was, for all the fancy, elaborate
frills and fills, harmonies and interesting embellishments evident in Saliere's
music, it was nowhere near as emotionally powerful as was Mozart's.
Based on his phenomenal Artistry and Creativity, Mozart is the one the world
remembers. (Just what metric are we missing here?)
That's the difference, IMHO between Atkins' and The Ventures' delivery of the
same song.
Atkins played Walk Don't Run as a literal cover of Johnny Smith's original.
(Zero on the Creativity Metric/9.5 on the Craftsmanship Metric).
The Ventures, on the other hand, took what they felt were the song's most
vital elements, and made this tune over, creating something fresh and new - an
unforgettable classic, (9.5 on the Creativity Metric/7.5-8.0 on the
Craftsmanship Metric).
What The Ventures did, based on generally accepted definitions, best fits the
description of "art". I'm not putting Chet down, but no-one should put down The
Ventures' elegant, artistic creativity as "lowest common denominator" or
"McDonalds" because they didn't happen to be at a virtuouso's level of
craftsmanship.
The Ventures created and delivered something that 45 years later, is still
considered "Essential" listening for anyone interested in the history of Rock
Music. Nothing recorded by Hendrix, Page, Beck, Clapton, or Nugent, or Chet
Atkins, can take that away from them.
In that sense, they've accomplished a kind of immortality, somewhat akin to
the fact that centuries later, we remember Mozart, and have utterly forgotten
Saliere. Does anyone, even jokingly, ever refer to Mozart as "lowest common
denominator"?????
Just my 'umble opinion, guv'nor, which I'm sure is no more valid than yours.
Bruce D
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Bruce,
You're only looking at one metric when there are several to consider. Sure we
hear great "emotional force" in the Ventures version of Walk Don't Run with it's
loud single note simplicity and crashing drums that appeal most to the least
common denominator (a group that I happily include myself in). But Chet's
version of Walk Don't Run has equal if not more emotional force. It's just
measured under a different metric, that of more interesting harmony and
technique. Can anyone make with the loud and crashing and come across as well as
the Ventures? No. Can anyone make with the fancy fingerwork and interesting
harmony the way Chet did? No.
Now on the metric of musicianship, Chet's style requires more training. It's
much harder to put forth the emotional content with a single guitar, creating
bass, harmony and melody. I'm more impressed when someone can produce intensity
that way than I am by intensity produced from amps and drums. But I still eat at
Mc Donalds more often than I do at better places just as I listen to the
Ventures more than Chet (and Chet more than Segovia).
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
This is a debate that could go on indefinitely. It comes down to a question
of delivery. If you were big into bluegrass and jazz, of course you'd tend to
prefer Chet Atkins' stylings on most any song. But could his typical rendering
be called "immediate"; "urgent"; or "driving"?
How about the tone of the main guitar? Would Chet Atkins' sound be more
accurately described as "Intense, urgent and hard-driving" or "Genteel, laden
with technique and laid-back"?
Most Rock & Roll fans took instantly to The Ventures' version of Walk Don't
Run because of Bogle and Wilson's intuitive understanding of their target
audience, and what would create the most immediate and positive response within
that audience.
They simplified an arty jazz composition, added prominent drums, (which were
extremely subdued on Atkin's rendering), and what I consider "to-die-for" tones
from both rhythm and lead guitars. The song as they played it conveyed a sense
of urgency and immediacy, which was totally infectious, a quality of sound they
were never quite able to duplicate in subsequent recordings, (nor anyone else
for that matter).
It's quite ELITIST IMHO to equate The Ventures' Walk Don't Run with Mickey
Dee's, while implicitly equating Atkins' more arty version with a 5-star gourmet
restaurant. Please allow me to expand and clarify:
In Autumn 1960, when I first heard The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, I was 8
years old, studying Classical Violin and Piano on a scholarship to the Hart
College of Music in Hartford, Connecticut. My teachers considered me a musical
prodigy. My parents' dream was for me to become a Classical Concert soloist
ala Yascha Heifetz. My days and nights were totally given over to the most
intensive studies of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Chopin, Lizst, Schubert, and
numerous other composers, against whom Chet Atkins could be considered as
cultural "junk food". My "ear" was definitely attuned to the most artistically
crafted and executed, most timeless music of modern history! Definitely
L'Escoffier as opposed to burgers, fries, (and hominy grits in Atkins' case).
IMHO measured against even the most exacting Classical standards of
composition, arrangement and execution, The Ventures blew Mr. Atkins right off
the playing field because they were able to wring the ultimate emotional force
from that Johnny Smith tune. Their rendition can only be described as
"Classic", and the fact that 45 years later, The Ventures' version of Walk Don't
Run remains the definitive version of the song is because they communicated
PASSION, while Atkins communicated more of a cerebral, contrived technical
ability.
When judging "artistic expression", feeling is much more crucial than
technique, and this rule applies 24 hours of every day of every year!
It is no understatement to say that my first hearing, (by complete accident)
of The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, was a slow-acting catalyst which almost
single-handedly, caused me, eight years later, to halt my Classical Music
studies, (even with a scholarship offer to The Peabody Institute), and take up
guitar. And when I did, the very first song I dedicated myself to learning was
Walk Don't Run, Ventures-Style!!
The Ventures influences weren't just the contemporary recording artists of
the late 50's, but also included quite a bit of classical music, as evidenced by
covers they recorded on various of their 1960's albums. In terms of modern
Neo-Classic themes, their delivery of Richard Rogers' "Slaughter on 10th Avenue"
stands out as one of the most stunning Rock Instro recordings of the 1960's.
Other influences that appear in their early recordings were two of the best
Bands of the Swing Era: Duke Ellington (Caravan) and Harry James (Flight of The
Bumble Bee).
Sorry Dan, the Mickey Dees reference is way off the mark!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Of course they did...and if you gave 10 families who were hungry the choice
between Mcdonalds or a five star gourmet restaurant, I'm sure nine out of ten
would choose Mcdonalds. My point being... Chet's version of Walk Don't Run
(which I've never heard) I'm sure goes over most people's head. But that's
cool...I'm assuming that were not into surf music because we want to study
guitar technique pushed to the max...otherwise we'd be swapping posts in a
totally different group. I think it's mainly the "teenage driving beat" that
draws us into surf. At least me, anyway. A little technique doesn't hurt, but
it's gotta rock. I still say it takes two Ventures to play what 'ol Chet could
easily play by himself.
Cheers
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
I play the Chet fingerstyle version. I was showing off to a few folks with
it at the PCC record swap a couple of years ago. Then a guy took the guitar from
me and played the Ventures single note version. Many more ears perked up with
enthuiastic, "Wow, I remember that!" type of comments.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Bottom line though - The Ventures Walk Don't Run left one HECKUVA longer
lasting impression on the world than did Chet Atkins fingerstyle/jazz version!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Except it took two Ventures to play what one Chet Atkins could!
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Dick, I'm gonna say your fifth point is an overstatement. The Ventures
certainly heard the Fireballs as they covered Bulldog but their sound was not
greatly inspired by them. The early sound of the Ventures indicates big
inspiration from the Fabulous Wailers and Chet Atkins.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Stewart
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Briefly, the way I see it:
First, there was country (called it western back
then).
Second: Elvis came on the scene and put a rock 'n'
roll spin on country ("That's All Right")
Third: Holly, who originally played country, was so
flipped out over Elvis's new sound, that he was
influenced by the King to do his own thing.
Fourth: Because of Petty's arrangement and production
genius and Holly's style, along came The Fireballs and
The String-A-Longs.
Fifth: The Ventures were greatly inspired by The
Fireballs and they took guitar instros to a new level.
Sixth: Everyone else (except for Duane Eddy and one or
two others)jumped on the guitar rock instro band
wagon.
Dick Stewart
Editor - TLM
--- spskins <> wrote:
> Yeah, I hear it. Plus, his strat with slapback
> reverb or echo, or
> whatever, is a pretty thick, wet sound for the
> pre-tank era ("Maybe
> Baby", That'll Be the Day"), The tom toms in "Peggy
> Sue" are very Wipe
> Out-esque, "Heartbeat" presages Latin-influenced
> surf, the list goes
> on. A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the Crickets
> would be a hell of
> a lot better and make a hell of a lot more sense
> than The Doors or the
> Grateful Dead. There's also the whole Fireballs,
> Buddy Holly, and
> (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> producer/writing credit taker
> Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> --- In , "Dave Becker"
> <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > I wonder if there's any connection between the
> vocal stylings of Buddy
> > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> >
> > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he hard to
> catch...
> > BWD
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From:
> > [mailto:]
> > >On Behalf Of spskins
> > >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:40 AM
> > >To:
> > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the
> Influencers?
> > >
> > >
> > >Don't forget Buddy Holly.
> > >--- In ,
> "stratrhythm"
> > ><lawyerschroeder@s...> wrote:
> > >> --- In , Phil Dirt
> <phildirt@r...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> Influences included Link Wray, Duane Eddy, the
> > >> Ventures, the Fireballs, Johnny and the
> Hurricanes
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So did Brian I think...
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, who DID influence the influencers?
> > >>
> > >> Duanne Eddy?
> > >> Gene Autry
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Link Wray?
> > >> "Hambone" (a Local Slide Player)
> > >> Western Swing Music
> > >> the Ventures?
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Duane Eddy
> > >> Les Paul
> > >> GIenn Miller
> > >> Tommy Dorsey
> > >> Country and Western Music
> > >> The Fireballs?
> > >> Unknown?
> > >> Johnny and the Hurricanes
> > >> Jazz greats
> > >> Bill Haley
> > >>
> > >> ...and Chet cites Django as his major
> influence. The roots grow deep.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >Visit
> for archived
> > messages,
> > >bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
.
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What The Ventures did, still meets the meaning of "Artistry" to a Tee!
Their arrangement of Walk Don't Run is NOT going to stuff you full of JUNK like
a Supersize Big Mac Meal at McDonalds! So, please forgive me for continuing to
fail to see the validity of this comparison, Marty!
Best Regards,
Bruce D
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
The Ventures' profile is certainly on the wan just as Saliere's. I'm sure Chet
is not well remembered by the common folks either. Yes, the Ventures came up
with a clever arrangement. Yes, Chet's version was closer to the original in
that he kept the swing feel but he did turn it into a nice solo guitar piece
with clever walking bass and original and fantastic harmony. None of this
changes the idea that The Ventures version is loud fast and simple and
satisfying, like fast food. Chet's version is a more relaxed dinner at a nicer
restaurant.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Marty -
Did you ever see Amadeus? The point I was making, as one whose early training
in music theory taught me how to differentiate between great moving music,
versus mechanical and highly technical renderings, is that artistry is the
communication, with the least embellishment, of a powerful emotional message.
That, Marty, is the Artist's ultimate goal.
Respect the craftsman, but in Amadeus, I think the message came through loud
and clear that Mozart, the boy genius trumped Saliere, the court-composer,
because as technically excellent as Saliere was, for all the fancy, elaborate
frills and fills, harmonies and interesting embellishments evident in Saliere's
music, it was nowhere near as emotionally powerful as was Mozart's.
Based on his phenomenal Artistry and Creativity, Mozart is the one the world
remembers. (Just what metric are we missing here?)
That's the difference, IMHO between Atkins' and The Ventures' delivery of the
same song.
Atkins played Walk Don't Run as a literal cover of Johnny Smith's original.
(Zero on the Creativity Metric/9.5 on the Craftsmanship Metric).
The Ventures, on the other hand, took what they felt were the song's most
vital elements, and made this tune over, creating something fresh and new - an
unforgettable classic, (9.5 on the Creativity Metric/7.5-8.0 on the
Craftsmanship Metric).
What The Ventures did, based on generally accepted definitions, best fits the
description of "art". I'm not putting Chet down, but no-one should put down The
Ventures' elegant, artistic creativity as "lowest common denominator" or
"McDonalds" because they didn't happen to be at a virtuouso's level of
craftsmanship.
The Ventures created and delivered something that 45 years later, is still
considered "Essential" listening for anyone interested in the history of Rock
Music. Nothing recorded by Hendrix, Page, Beck, Clapton, or Nugent, or Chet
Atkins, can take that away from them.
In that sense, they've accomplished a kind of immortality, somewhat akin to
the fact that centuries later, we remember Mozart, and have utterly forgotten
Saliere. Does anyone, even jokingly, ever refer to Mozart as "lowest common
denominator"?????
Just my 'umble opinion, guv'nor, which I'm sure is no more valid than yours.
Bruce D
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Bruce,
You're only looking at one metric when there are several to consider. Sure we
hear great "emotional force" in the Ventures version of Walk Don't Run with it's
loud single note simplicity and crashing drums that appeal most to the least
common denominator (a group that I happily include myself in). But Chet's
version of Walk Don't Run has equal if not more emotional force. It's just
measured under a different metric, that of more interesting harmony and
technique. Can anyone make with the loud and crashing and come across as well as
the Ventures? No. Can anyone make with the fancy fingerwork and interesting
harmony the way Chet did? No.
Now on the metric of musicianship, Chet's style requires more training. It's
much harder to put forth the emotional content with a single guitar, creating
bass, harmony and melody. I'm more impressed when someone can produce intensity
that way than I am by intensity produced from amps and drums. But I still eat at
Mc Donalds more often than I do at better places just as I listen to the
Ventures more than Chet (and Chet more than Segovia).
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
This is a debate that could go on indefinitely. It comes down to a question
of delivery. If you were big into bluegrass and jazz, of course you'd tend to
prefer Chet Atkins' stylings on most any song. But could his typical rendering
be called "immediate"; "urgent"; or "driving"?
How about the tone of the main guitar? Would Chet Atkins' sound be more
accurately described as "Intense, urgent and hard-driving" or "Genteel, laden
with technique and laid-back"?
Most Rock & Roll fans took instantly to The Ventures' version of Walk Don't
Run because of Bogle and Wilson's intuitive understanding of their target
audience, and what would create the most immediate and positive response within
that audience.
They simplified an arty jazz composition, added prominent drums, (which were
extremely subdued on Atkin's rendering), and what I consider "to-die-for" tones
from both rhythm and lead guitars. The song as they played it conveyed a sense
of urgency and immediacy, which was totally infectious, a quality of sound they
were never quite able to duplicate in subsequent recordings, (nor anyone else
for that matter).
It's quite ELITIST IMHO to equate The Ventures' Walk Don't Run with Mickey
Dee's, while implicitly equating Atkins' more arty version with a 5-star gourmet
restaurant. Please allow me to expand and clarify:
In Autumn 1960, when I first heard The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, I was 8
years old, studying Classical Violin and Piano on a scholarship to the Hart
College of Music in Hartford, Connecticut. My teachers considered me a musical
prodigy. My parents' dream was for me to become a Classical Concert soloist
ala Yascha Heifetz. My days and nights were totally given over to the most
intensive studies of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Chopin, Lizst, Schubert, and
numerous other composers, against whom Chet Atkins could be considered as
cultural "junk food". My "ear" was definitely attuned to the most artistically
crafted and executed, most timeless music of modern history! Definitely
L'Escoffier as opposed to burgers, fries, (and hominy grits in Atkins' case).
IMHO measured against even the most exacting Classical standards of
composition, arrangement and execution, The Ventures blew Mr. Atkins right off
the playing field because they were able to wring the ultimate emotional force
from that Johnny Smith tune. Their rendition can only be described as
"Classic", and the fact that 45 years later, The Ventures' version of Walk Don't
Run remains the definitive version of the song is because they communicated
PASSION, while Atkins communicated more of a cerebral, contrived technical
ability.
When judging "artistic expression", feeling is much more crucial than
technique, and this rule applies 24 hours of every day of every year!
It is no understatement to say that my first hearing, (by complete accident)
of The Ventures' Walk Don't Run, was a slow-acting catalyst which almost
single-handedly, caused me, eight years later, to halt my Classical Music
studies, (even with a scholarship offer to The Peabody Institute), and take up
guitar. And when I did, the very first song I dedicated myself to learning was
Walk Don't Run, Ventures-Style!!
The Ventures influences weren't just the contemporary recording artists of
the late 50's, but also included quite a bit of classical music, as evidenced by
covers they recorded on various of their 1960's albums. In terms of modern
Neo-Classic themes, their delivery of Richard Rogers' "Slaughter on 10th Avenue"
stands out as one of the most stunning Rock Instro recordings of the 1960's.
Other influences that appear in their early recordings were two of the best
Bands of the Swing Era: Duke Ellington (Caravan) and Harry James (Flight of The
Bumble Bee).
Sorry Dan, the Mickey Dees reference is way off the mark!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Of course they did...and if you gave 10 families who were hungry the choice
between Mcdonalds or a five star gourmet restaurant, I'm sure nine out of ten
would choose Mcdonalds. My point being... Chet's version of Walk Don't Run
(which I've never heard) I'm sure goes over most people's head. But that's
cool...I'm assuming that were not into surf music because we want to study
guitar technique pushed to the max...otherwise we'd be swapping posts in a
totally different group. I think it's mainly the "teenage driving beat" that
draws us into surf. At least me, anyway. A little technique doesn't hurt, but
it's gotta rock. I still say it takes two Ventures to play what 'ol Chet could
easily play by himself.
Cheers
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
I play the Chet fingerstyle version. I was showing off to a few folks with
it at the PCC record swap a couple of years ago. Then a guy took the guitar from
me and played the Ventures single note version. Many more ears perked up with
enthuiastic, "Wow, I remember that!" type of comments.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: bruce d
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Bottom line though - The Ventures Walk Don't Run left one HECKUVA longer
lasting impression on the world than did Chet Atkins fingerstyle/jazz version!
Bruce D
Dan Bartley <> wrote:
Except it took two Ventures to play what one Chet Atkins could!
Dan
Marty Tippens <> wrote:
Dick, I'm gonna say your fifth point is an overstatement. The Ventures
certainly heard the Fireballs as they covered Bulldog but their sound was not
greatly inspired by them. The early sound of the Ventures indicates big
inspiration from the Fabulous Wailers and Chet Atkins.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Stewart
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the Influencers?
Briefly, the way I see it:
First, there was country (called it western back
then).
Second: Elvis came on the scene and put a rock 'n'
roll spin on country ("That's All Right")
Third: Holly, who originally played country, was so
flipped out over Elvis's new sound, that he was
influenced by the King to do his own thing.
Fourth: Because of Petty's arrangement and production
genius and Holly's style, along came The Fireballs and
The String-A-Longs.
Fifth: The Ventures were greatly inspired by The
Fireballs and they took guitar instros to a new level.
Sixth: Everyone else (except for Duane Eddy and one or
two others)jumped on the guitar rock instro band
wagon.
Dick Stewart
Editor - TLM
--- spskins <> wrote:
> Yeah, I hear it. Plus, his strat with slapback
> reverb or echo, or
> whatever, is a pretty thick, wet sound for the
> pre-tank era ("Maybe
> Baby", That'll Be the Day"), The tom toms in "Peggy
> Sue" are very Wipe
> Out-esque, "Heartbeat" presages Latin-influenced
> surf, the list goes
> on. A surf tribute to Buddy Holly and the Crickets
> would be a hell of
> a lot better and make a hell of a lot more sense
> than The Doors or the
> Grateful Dead. There's also the whole Fireballs,
> Buddy Holly, and
> (later) Bobby Fuller connection with
> producer/writing credit taker
> Norman Petty of Clovis NM. Hmmm.
> --- In , "Dave Becker"
> <novapup@i...> wrote:
> > I wonder if there's any connection between the
> vocal stylings of Buddy
> > Holly and (The Surfaris') Surfer Joe ;-)
> >
> > When he's ridin' the freeways, Man, is he hard to
> catch...
> > BWD
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From:
> > [mailto:]
> > >On Behalf Of spskins
> > >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:40 AM
> > >To:
> > >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: Who Influenced the
> Influencers?
> > >
> > >
> > >Don't forget Buddy Holly.
> > >--- In ,
> "stratrhythm"
> > ><lawyerschroeder@s...> wrote:
> > >> --- In , Phil Dirt
> <phildirt@r...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> Influences included Link Wray, Duane Eddy, the
> > >> Ventures, the Fireballs, Johnny and the
> Hurricanes
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So did Brian I think...
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, who DID influence the influencers?
> > >>
> > >> Duanne Eddy?
> > >> Gene Autry
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Link Wray?
> > >> "Hambone" (a Local Slide Player)
> > >> Western Swing Music
> > >> the Ventures?
> > >> Chet Atkins
> > >> Duane Eddy
> > >> Les Paul
> > >> GIenn Miller
> > >> Tommy Dorsey
> > >> Country and Western Music
> > >> The Fireballs?
> > >> Unknown?
> > >> Johnny and the Hurricanes
> > >> Jazz greats
> > >> Bill Haley
> > >>
> > >> ...and Chet cites Django as his major
> influence. The roots grow deep.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >Visit
> for archived
> > messages,
> > >bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
.
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I'll agree with you there, Bruce. I was totally amazed at The
Ventures' cover of "Green Onions," when I first heard it. Being a
Hammond organ enthusiast, I love the original by Booker T & The MGs,
but what The Ventures did with it also appeals to my guitar playing
side. Nothing within the realm of classical music could really be
considered a "cover song," at least not in the same sense as anything
in popular western music can be so called. The only similarity, in
this case, is identifying the original composer/songwriter (if
possible), and identifying who created the arrangement in question.
Mozart's "Ein Klein Nacht Musik" wouldn't be considered a "cover
song," if Ravel had decided to render his own interpretation of the
piece in the style of "Bolero"...granted it'd probably sound rather
weird, as I sit imagining/wondering how such an arrangement would've
sounded. And if I'm imagining how "Ein Klein Nacht Musik" in the syle
of "Bolero" might sound, it's probably time for me to stop, and move
on to other subjects, here at Yahoo Groups. :D
Lizzy
--- In , bruce d <wizzbangg2003@y...> wrote:
> What The Ventures did, still meets the meaning of "Artistry" to a Tee!
>
> Their arrangement of Walk Don't Run is NOT going to stuff you full
of JUNK like a Supersize Big Mac Meal at McDonalds! So, please
forgive me for continuing to fail to see the validity of this
comparison, Marty!
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bruce D
