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How many of you guys that write riffs write them with
a particular scale in mind, like "I'm going to fiddle
around in E harmonic minor until I come up with
something I like"? How many people ignore scales
completely when they write and just play until
something comes out that sounds good?
A friend of mine who is a bedroom player and a great
(in his own mind, of course) critic of music (but
never does anything...yeah, one of those) told me
while we were attending the Crimson Ghosts/Phantom
Creeps show here a while back during one of John and
Gein's instro numbers that a lot of the lead work in
guitar driven instro music is done "over the fifth,"
as in whatever root chord/bass note is being played by
the bass/rhythm guitar, the lead guitar player will be
playing in the key of the fifth of the root as opposed
to the root, like if the rhythm player is strumming an
A then the lead guitar will play it's riff in E.
I didn't really pay attention at the time as I was
just enjoying the show, but I've always meant to post
here and ask if there was anything to that statement.
I have never played guitar with another stringed
instrument, only drums, so I've never really had much
of an opportunity to try these things out for myself.
Richard
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Richard,
That is very interesting and good timing. I usually only figure out lead
guitar parts. But the past few days I've been learning Mar Gaya, both
lead and rhythm, and that's exactly what's happening on that song. Of
course I don't know if you can say that for the majority of the songs
out there in the wild.
BN
(Who has serious arm and hand damage now. If you think the lead guitar
part is hard on the old picking arm, the rhythm is just as bad on the
fretting hand if you have heavy strings!)
Richard wrote:
>A friend of mine who is a bedroom player and a great
>(in his own mind, of course) critic of music (but
>never does anything...yeah, one of those) told me
>while we were attending the Crimson Ghosts/Phantom
>Creeps show here a while back during one of John and
>Gein's instro numbers that a lot of the lead work in
>guitar driven instro music is done "over the fifth,"
>as in whatever root chord/bass note is being played by
>the bass/rhythm guitar, the lead guitar player will be
>playing in the key of the fifth of the root as opposed
>to the root, like if the rhythm player is strumming an
>A then the lead guitar will play it's riff in E.
>
>
--- In , Richard <errant_jedi@y...>
wrote:
a lot of the lead work in
> guitar driven instro music is done "over the fifth,"
> as in whatever root chord/bass note is being played by
> the bass/rhythm guitar, the lead guitar player will be
> playing in the key of the fifth of the root as opposed
> to the root, like if the rhythm player is strumming an
> A then the lead guitar will play it's riff in E.
>
This is, from a theoretical perspective, BS. I can understand that it
might be a way to communicate about music for selfthought musicians,
and there is nothing wrong with that. but it doesn't really make
sense.
DISCLAIMER: By no means am i suggesting that anyone should know all
this to make music, or do i mean disrespect for selftought musicians
that make up their own vocabulary for talking about music. whatever
works for you works for you.
Phew, having said that:
- first of all: what key of E? there's the 7 classical keys of E,
various pentatonics, a-tonal, chromatic, whole-tone, and various
variations. at the same time, one set of notes can be differnet
scales depending on the context ( |Iwould say: bgin and end note, but
that's not entirely correct. anyway, as in Am scale an C major scale)
- there is no such thing as two keys at once, as in 'he is playing in
a and the other guy is playing in E, you would be playing some weird
scale together.
But, more then likely, bass/backing guitar are simply playing the
chord, and that scale you refer to is not the scale of E but a
different A scale. In your example, it would probably actually be E
minor (aeolic - sp?) which has one # (F#), and so being A minor #6
scale (forgot he right name for that scale) anyway, it's a rather
common scale with an Am and a D (f#!) in the backing, allowing for
nice bluesy double tone on g and b strings.
something similar happens in Margaya: just because you start the
melody on the 5th of a scale, doesn't make it a different scale.
Ok mono_tones, you are right, that made no sense to
me. What made me give credence to it is the fact that
most of the "stock" surf songs we all know seem to
conform to this when you look at them; the two easiest
examples are Pipeline and Penetration. The rhythm
riff for Pipeline is in Em (E-B-G-B...or 1-5-3-5) and
the lead riff appears to follow Bm (by virtue of the
fact that it begins and ends on B) even though all the
notes it plays are in Em. (At least I think this is
the case, I don't have my guitar and I'm in a hurry).
In Penetration the rhythm part is in Gm and the lead
part is in Dm, and though I don't have my guitar right
now but I don't think that the lead is in Gm but in
Dm, or is it that Gm is simply not the key of the song
as I've always assumed from the rhythm part? Perhaps
a more correct way of saying "playing over the fifth"
in this base would be for the rhythm guitar to play
"under the fourth?" I've no experience with real
composition, just making simple rock songs out of
chord progressions. It never occured to me before
that the rhythm/bass note being played through an
entire riff was not actually the root.
Richard
--- mono_tones_1 <> wrote:
> But, more then likely, bass/backing guitar are
> simply playing the
> chord, and that scale you refer to is not the scale
> of E but a
> different A scale. In your example, it would
> probably actually be E
> minor (aeolic - sp?) which has one # (F#), and so
> being A minor #6
> scale (forgot he right name for that scale) anyway,
> it's a rather
> common scale with an Am and a D (f#!) in the
> backing, allowing for
> nice bluesy double tone on g and b strings.
> something similar happens in Margaya: just because
> you start the
> melody on the 5th of a scale, doesn't make it a
> different scale.
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You know I thought about this some more, and although Mar Gaya
starts out like that, it doesn't stay that way. So forget what I
wrote below. The relationship between lead and rhythm changes
throughout the song; this probably creates the tension you hear.
BN
--- In , Brian Neal <brian@s...> wrote:
> Richard,
>
> That is very interesting and good timing. I usually only figure
out lead
> guitar parts. But the past few days I've been learning Mar Gaya,
both
> lead and rhythm, and that's exactly what's happening on that song.
Of
> course I don't know if you can say that for the majority of the
songs
> out there in the wild.
>
> Richard wrote:
>
> >A friend of mine who is a bedroom player and a great
> >(in his own mind, of course) critic of music (but
> >never does anything...yeah, one of those) told me
> >while we were attending the Crimson Ghosts/Phantom
> >Creeps show here a while back during one of John and
> >Gein's instro numbers that a lot of the lead work in
> >guitar driven instro music is done "over the fifth,"
> >as in whatever root chord/bass note is being played by
> >the bass/rhythm guitar, the lead guitar player will be
> >playing in the key of the fifth of the root as opposed
> >to the root, like if the rhythm player is strumming an
> >A then the lead guitar will play it's riff in E.
> >
> >
I think both approaches work. Sometimes a riff or hook will evolve into a great
song without any thought of scales. Yet, it's also fun to decide on a particular
scale/sound/feel to write a song in as well. Here's what I did for the most
recent song of mine. I came up with the chord progression first, then invented
the melody. What a pleasant surprise when it was finished. I never would have
come up with that melody if I had started with the riff, or scale(s) first.
BTW, I don't have a web site to post my songs on but I'd love have input on
them. I just do little demos here at home for possible use in a real studio. If
anyone wants a listen I can email an MP3.
Cheers
Dan
Richard <> wrote:
How many of you guys that write riffs write them with
a particular scale in mind, like "I'm going to fiddle
around in E harmonic minor until I come up with
something I like"? How many people ignore scales
completely when they write and just play until
something comes out that sounds good?
A friend of mine who is a bedroom player and a great
(in his own mind, of course) critic of music (but
never does anything...yeah, one of those) told me
while we were attending the Crimson Ghosts/Phantom
Creeps show here a while back during one of John and
Gein's instro numbers that a lot of the lead work in
guitar driven instro music is done "over the fifth,"
as in whatever root chord/bass note is being played by
the bass/rhythm guitar, the lead guitar player will be
playing in the key of the fifth of the root as opposed
to the root, like if the rhythm player is strumming an
A then the lead guitar will play it's riff in E.
I didn't really pay attention at the time as I was
just enjoying the show, but I've always meant to post
here and ask if there was anything to that statement.
I have never played guitar with another stringed
instrument, only drums, so I've never really had much
of an opportunity to try these things out for myself.
Richard
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