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Thanks BW Dave. Yes, I also appreciate those surf bands that try different
things. The Ultra's, in particular, had some great country twang influence on
their CD.
-Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Becker
To:
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 6:12 PM
Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
Nicely done! Marty, I admire anyone who makes these types of attempts.
Sounds like a lot of TexMexWestern flair but merges a Bluegrass feel
with the banjo.
It's these kinda experiments where cool new creative stuff is born.
Pretty unique, I'd say.
BW Dave
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
[mailto:]
>On Behalf Of Marty Tippens
>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:21 PM
>To:
>Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>I attempted a more direct bluegrass / surf marriage featuring a
Tele-banjo
>earlier this year on the Surfguitar101 comp that can be heard by
clicking
>
>Marty_Tippens.mp3
>
>-Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dave Becker
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>
>
> >I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> >relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
> >again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
> >clearly came out of country music
>
> Nice post, Carb. Interesting perspectives. I also like to at least
> compare and see the influences evolve and how the genres relate over
> time. My personal view is that musically, Hillbilly/Rockabilly, sits
> between Surf and Bluegrass, and Deke kinda sits between both of those
> ;-) So to me, you don't get from one to the other directly. There are
> correlations and comparisons to be made between Surf and Bluegrass,
like
> picking techniques and minor key focuses, true.
>
> Bay Area folks may remember a now-defunct band from San Francisco in
the
> late 80s/early 90s called The Movie Stars, (featuring Jill Olson on
> upright bass, now of the band, Red Meat) who experimented in a merge
of
> Surf and Honky Tonk Bluegrass, more like trying to infuse Ventures
> stylings and carefully applied reverb to Bluegrass. When I saw this
> LIVE, I was like, wow, certainly not Surf, but this is totally
> innovative! They put out one quite rare vinyl album. Haven't heard
> anyone do things like that since.
>
> A Bay Area bluegrass fave of mine is the Hot Buttered Rum String
Band.
> All fantastic players and their "jams" are blinding with rhythm and
> accuracy. Check 'em out.
>
> bIG wAvE Dave Becker
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:
> [mailto:]
> >On Behalf Of carbon4logic
> >Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:27 AM
> >To:
> >Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
> >
> >You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent explanation
> >on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through high
> >school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
> >occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
> >earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which brought in
> >the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
> >disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
> >conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
> >technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing, rock,
> >was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue that
> >those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
> >the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads, and
> >even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their roots,
> >eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
> >
> >I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as a 'new'
> >form of musical expression that combined elements of different
> >traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and peaked,
> >then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
> >different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen bros
> >movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
> >permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in film
> >soundtrack composers libraries.
> >
> >I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> >relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
> >again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
> >clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country before
> >he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
> >tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and surf
> >employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes and
> >minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill tuning,
> >think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
> >grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the wall
> >rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
> >influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
> >later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as well
> >as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
> >
> >Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an interesting
> >contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
> >ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
> >ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can some
> >aspects of Surf.
> >
> >One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious versions
> >of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
> >directions.
> >
> >I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world, between
> >the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting, because,
> >sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
> >information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to be
> >incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to see if
> >it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature, great
> >accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
> >
> >J
> >
> >
> >--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> >wrote:
> >> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether
> >you
> >> define them from a musicological or time period point of view.
Most
> >> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not
> >jive
> >> with the music's evolution or sound.
> >>
> >> First Wave: The Heyday
> >>
> >> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a
> >line
> >> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
> >> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
> >(8.61).
> >> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will
generally
> >> agree this is where it started.
> >>
> >> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
> >reverb,
> >> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
> >> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there
> >were
> >> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays,
> >the
> >> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
> >Surfaris,
> >> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
> >>
> >> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
> >> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
> >> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
> >> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
> >singles
> >> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
> >> sixties.
> >>
> >> Second Wave: The Revival
> >>
> >> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the
> >first
> >> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of
> >the
> >> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
> >beginnings
> >> of the third wave (more later).
> >>
> >> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
> >Nightriders. In
> >> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to
> >them
> >> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the
> >El
> >> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge,
> >and
> >> the Evasions, among others.
> >>
> >> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
> >>
> >> Third Wave: Rebirth
> >>
> >> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution,
> >the
> >> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just
> >as
> >> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco,
> >West
> >> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
> >space
> >> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the
> >first
> >> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
> >>
> >> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
> >wave. The
> >> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
> >> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
> >> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
> >Vibrabeams,
> >> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start
> >with
> >> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary.
> >The
> >> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think
of
> >> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
> >> sounds for a significantly different sound.
> >>
> >> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
> >around
> >> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as
a
> >> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
> >> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
> >> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
> >> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece,
> >freed
> >> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
> >today's
> >> bands descend from.
> >>
> >> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like
a
> >> calendar.
> >>
> >> First Wave: 1961-1965
> >> Second Wave: 1979-1986
> >> Third Wave: 1989-2000
> >> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
> >>
> >> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have
> >little
> >> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of
> >these
> >> periods.
> >>
> >> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> >> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
> >> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and
> >its
> >> too nebula-ous of a term.
> >>
> >> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
> >
> >
> >
> >
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