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I never said that you said JT was a CW clone. I said that the
Clarence White influence is not obvious in JT's playing and that your
mention of "rhythmic patterns" was too ambiguous to be meaningful.
I'm happy to see that you now offer a specific example. I'll have to
hear that "Emmylou Rides..." track.
As I stated, JT rarely plays trad. This is not to say he never plays
trad. You mention one example and I have seen him perform other trad
examples.
-Marty
--- In , "carbon4logic"
<carbon4logic@y...> wrote:
> I never said Jim Thomas was a Clarence White clone. But here is a
> quote from an old article about the band:
>
> 'Jim Thomas credits the legendary surf guitarist Dale as one of his
> influences, along with Clarence White...'
>
>
>
> 'Emmylou Rides Clarence West and Then South' is pretty close to the
> country flatpick style of Clarence White...as for Jim's trad surf
> sound, his version of Quiet Surf is not much different than
> Polodars'. He's been playing songs from Endless Summer for years,
> and recently, even playing Shig and Buzz tunes, which are as retro
> as you can get.
>
> As for examples of rhythmic similarity between fast paced surf
> instrumentals and breakdowns, I would have thought it was obvious.
I
> can't get to any music resources from work, but, off the top of my
> head, Shuckin the Corn by Eric Weissberg and Marshall Brickman or
> the Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn by Hickory Wind vs. Cross-
> Steppin by the Eliminators. I threw in the Hickory Wind tune to
show
> that this is a rhythimic pattern inherited from pre-bluegrass
string
> band breakdown forms deriving from folk fiddle traditions.
>
> Istanbul(not Constantinople) has been covered by both Surf bands--
> The Halibuts--as well as bluegrass bands.
>
> What I am saying is that we share the same genes that perform
> glycolysis with flatworms, in spite of the fact that flatworms do
> not have opposable thumbs or pre-frontal lobes.
>
> J
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "Marty Tippens"
> <mctippens@e...> wrote:
> > Alright J,
> >
> > Your compare and contrast of Surf and Bluegrass has some valid
> bits but there is no obvious evidence of Clarence White influence
in
> the playing of Jim Thomas. To mention "rhythmic sequences" without
> supporting examples is far too ambiguous to be meaningful.
> >
> > When Clarence played bluegrass, it was full on traditional. When
> JT plays surf, it is rarely traditional. Sure, when Clarence played
> country rock, he developed a unique sound and style as Jim has with
> surf. But a unique sound and style is common to many other
> guitarists and doesn't make for an obvious mapping of one
guitarist
> to the other. I don't know if Jim has ever sited White as an
> influence, but there is no obvious evidence of it in his playing.
> >
> > -Marty
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: carbon4logic
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:26 AM
> > Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
> >
> >
> > You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent
> explanation
> > on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through
> high
> > school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
> > occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
> > earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which
> brought in
> > the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
> > disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
> > conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
> > technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing,
> rock,
> > was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue
> that
> > those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
> > the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate
threads,
> and
> > even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their
> roots,
> > eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
> >
> > I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as
> a 'new'
> > form of musical expression that combined elements of different
> > traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and
> peaked,
> > then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
> > different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen
> bros
> > movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
> > permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in
> film
> > soundtrack composers libraries.
> >
> > I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> > relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the
> obvious
> > again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in
> surf
> > clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country
> before
> > he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
> > tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and
> surf
> > employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes
> and
> > minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill
> tuning,
> > think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or
shady
> > grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the
> wall
> > rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
> > influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky
Gentlemen,
> > later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as
> well
> > as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
> >
> > Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an
> interesting
> > contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
> > ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
> > ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can
> some
> > aspects of Surf.
> >
> > One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious
> versions
> > of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
> > directions.
> >
> > I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world,
> between
> > the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting,
> because,
> > sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
> > information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to
> be
> > incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to
> see if
> > it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature,
> great
> > accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> > --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> > wrote:
> > > The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on
> whether
> > you
> > > define them from a musicological or time period point of
view.
> Most
> > > people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that
does
> not
> > jive
> > > with the music's evolution or sound.
> > >
> > > First Wave: The Heyday
> > >
> > > The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to
> draw a
> > line
> > > in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording
> of "Mr.
> > > Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
> > (8.61).
> > > Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will
> generally
> > > agree this is where it started.
> > >
> > > The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
> > reverb,
> > > took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical
> surf
> > > instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave,
> there
> > were
> > > actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The
> Chantays,
> > the
> > > Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
> > Surfaris,
> > > the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
> > >
> > > By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod
titles
> and
> > > sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences,
> again
> > > changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at
hand.
> The
> > > first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few
odd
> > singles
> > > and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of
> the
> > > sixties.
> > >
> > > Second Wave: The Revival
> > >
> > > The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of
> the
> > first
> > > wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a
> reliving of
> > the
> > > past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
> > beginnings
> > > of the third wave (more later).
> > >
> > > The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
> > Nightriders. In
> > > '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep.
> Contemporary to
> > them
> > > ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders,
> the
> > El
> > > Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the
> Wedge,
> > and
> > > the Evasions, among others.
> > >
> > > This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
> > >
> > > Third Wave: Rebirth
> > >
> > > Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant
> evolution,
> > the
> > > sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas.
> Just
> > as
> > > the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican,
> Flamenco,
> > West
> > > Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound
effects,
> > space
> > > themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over
> the
> > first
> > > few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
> > >
> > > Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
> > wave. The
> > > Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into
> their
> > > sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn
> with
> > > non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
> > Vibrabeams,
> > > Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the
> start
> > with
> > > rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and
> commentary.
> > The
> > > Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I
> think of
> > > them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with
> traditional
> > > sounds for a significantly different sound.
> > >
> > > The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
> > around
> > > 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used
surf
> as a
> > > platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad
> wars.
> > > Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras,
> the
> > > Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence,
> eventually
> > > hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum
> piece,
> > freed
> > > to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
> > today's
> > > bands descend from.
> > >
> > > From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more
> like a
> > > calendar.
> > >
> > > First Wave: 1961-1965
> > > Second Wave: 1979-1986
> > > Third Wave: 1989-2000
> > > Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
> > >
> > > The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands
> have
> > little
> > > in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any
> of
> > these
> > > periods.
> > >
> > > That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
> > >
> > > Phil
> > >
> > > --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> > > Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music,
> and a
> > > representational act or album for each? I've tried searching
> and
> > its
> > > too nebula-ous of a term.
> > >
> > > What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > Visit for archived
> messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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