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>I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
>relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
>again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
>clearly came out of country music
Nice post, Carb. Interesting perspectives. I also like to at least
compare and see the influences evolve and how the genres relate over
time. My personal view is that musically, Hillbilly/Rockabilly, sits
between Surf and Bluegrass, and Deke kinda sits between both of those
;-) So to me, you don't get from one to the other directly. There are
correlations and comparisons to be made between Surf and Bluegrass, like
picking techniques and minor key focuses, true.
Bay Area folks may remember a now-defunct band from San Francisco in the
late 80s/early 90s called The Movie Stars, (featuring Jill Olson on
upright bass, now of the band, Red Meat) who experimented in a merge of
Surf and Honky Tonk Bluegrass, more like trying to infuse Ventures
stylings and carefully applied reverb to Bluegrass. When I saw this
LIVE, I was like, wow, certainly not Surf, but this is totally
innovative! They put out one quite rare vinyl album. Haven't heard
anyone do things like that since.
A Bay Area bluegrass fave of mine is the Hot Buttered Rum String Band.
All fantastic players and their "jams" are blinding with rhythm and
accuracy. Check 'em out.
bIG wAvE Dave Becker
>-----Original Message-----
>From:
[mailto:]
>On Behalf Of carbon4logic
>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:27 AM
>To:
>Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent explanation
>on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through high
>school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
>occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
>earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which brought in
>the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
>disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
>conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
>technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing, rock,
>was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue that
>those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
>the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads, and
>even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their roots,
>eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
>
>I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as a 'new'
>form of musical expression that combined elements of different
>traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and peaked,
>then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
>different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen bros
>movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
>permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in film
>soundtrack composers libraries.
>
>I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
>relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the obvious
>again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in surf
>clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country before
>he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
>tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and surf
>employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes and
>minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill tuning,
>think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
>grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the wall
>rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
>influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
>later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as well
>as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
>
>Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an interesting
>contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
>ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
>ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can some
>aspects of Surf.
>
>One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious versions
>of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
>directions.
>
>I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world, between
>the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting, because,
>sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
>information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to be
>incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to see if
>it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature, great
>accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
>
>J
>
>
>--- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
>wrote:
>> The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on whether
>you
>> define them from a musicological or time period point of view. Most
>> people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does not
>jive
>> with the music's evolution or sound.
>>
>> First Wave: The Heyday
>>
>> The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to draw a
>line
>> in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording of "Mr.
>> Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
>(8.61).
>> Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will generally
>> agree this is where it started.
>>
>> The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
>reverb,
>> took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical surf
>> instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave, there
>were
>> actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The Chantays,
>the
>> Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
>Surfaris,
>> the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
>>
>> By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles and
>> sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences, again
>> changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand. The
>> first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
>singles
>> and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of the
>> sixties.
>>
>> Second Wave: The Revival
>>
>> The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of the
>first
>> wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a reliving of
>the
>> past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
>beginnings
>> of the third wave (more later).
>>
>> The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
>Nightriders. In
>> '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep. Contemporary to
>them
>> ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders, the
>El
>> Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the Wedge,
>and
>> the Evasions, among others.
>>
>> This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
>>
>> Third Wave: Rebirth
>>
>> Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant evolution,
>the
>> sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas. Just
>as
>> the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican, Flamenco,
>West
>> Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
>space
>> themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over the
>first
>> few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
>>
>> Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
>wave. The
>> Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into their
>> sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn with
>> non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
>Vibrabeams,
>> Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the start
>with
>> rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and commentary.
>The
>> Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I think of
>> them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with traditional
>> sounds for a significantly different sound.
>>
>> The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
>around
>> 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf as a
>> platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad wars.
>> Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras, the
>> Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence, eventually
>> hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum piece,
>freed
>> to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
>today's
>> bands descend from.
>>
>> From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more like a
>> calendar.
>>
>> First Wave: 1961-1965
>> Second Wave: 1979-1986
>> Third Wave: 1989-2000
>> Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
>>
>> The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands have
>little
>> in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any of
>these
>> periods.
>>
>> That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
>> Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music, and a
>> representational act or album for each? I've tried searching and
>its
>> too nebula-ous of a term.
>>
>> What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
>
>
>
>
>
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