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I never said Jim Thomas was a Clarence White clone. But here is a
quote from an old article about the band:
'Jim Thomas credits the legendary surf guitarist Dale as one of his
influences, along with Clarence White...'
'Emmylou Rides Clarence West and Then South' is pretty close to the
country flatpick style of Clarence White...as for Jim's trad surf
sound, his version of Quiet Surf is not much different than
Polodars'. He's been playing songs from Endless Summer for years,
and recently, even playing Shig and Buzz tunes, which are as retro
as you can get.
As for examples of rhythmic similarity between fast paced surf
instrumentals and breakdowns, I would have thought it was obvious. I
can't get to any music resources from work, but, off the top of my
head, Shuckin the Corn by Eric Weissberg and Marshall Brickman or
the Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn by Hickory Wind vs. Cross-
Steppin by the Eliminators. I threw in the Hickory Wind tune to show
that this is a rhythimic pattern inherited from pre-bluegrass string
band breakdown forms deriving from folk fiddle traditions.
Istanbul(not Constantinople) has been covered by both Surf bands--
The Halibuts--as well as bluegrass bands.
What I am saying is that we share the same genes that perform
glycolysis with flatworms, in spite of the fact that flatworms do
not have opposable thumbs or pre-frontal lobes.
J
--- In , "Marty Tippens"
<mctippens@e...> wrote:
> Alright J,
>
> Your compare and contrast of Surf and Bluegrass has some valid
bits but there is no obvious evidence of Clarence White influence in
the playing of Jim Thomas. To mention "rhythmic sequences" without
supporting examples is far too ambiguous to be meaningful.
>
> When Clarence played bluegrass, it was full on traditional. When
JT plays surf, it is rarely traditional. Sure, when Clarence played
country rock, he developed a unique sound and style as Jim has with
surf. But a unique sound and style is common to many other
guitarists and doesn't make for an obvious mapping of one guitarist
to the other. I don't know if Jim has ever sited White as an
influence, but there is no obvious evidence of it in his playing.
>
> -Marty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: carbon4logic
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:26 AM
> Subject: [SurfGuitar101] Re: waves
>
>
> You know, it just struck me after reading your excellent
explanation
> on the 'phylogeny' (I know, sorry, but I didn't sleep through
high
> school Biology) of Surf, that a very similar historical pattern
> occured with Bluegrass music, although the timeline encompasses
> earlier periods on the calendar. The third revival, which
brought in
> the stuff they characterized as 'Newgrass', prompted incredible
> disagreements and turf wars between those who had a very
> conservative approach, and thought that combining bluegrass
> technical stuff with other genres, jazz, classical, swing,
rock,
> was a blasphemous transgression. In some ways one could argue
that
> those tensions led to the 'breakdown' of the scene, although,
> the 'jazzgrass' hybrid survived in a few small separate threads,
and
> even some of the most aggressive innovators returned to their
roots,
> eventually (Tony Rice), fr instance.
>
> I mention this only because Surf, like bluegrass, emerged as
a 'new'
> form of musical expression that combined elements of different
> traditions in an original way, caught on like a fever and
peaked,
> then waned, then went through a rediscovery phase, a couple of
> different times--the most recent in bluegrass being the Cohen
bros
> movie a couple of years ago, and now, both forms seem to have a
> permanent home in marketing toolboxes for selling stuff, or in
film
> soundtrack composers libraries.
>
> I have had this argument for many years, whether there is ANY
> relation between surf and bluegrass -- and I will state the
obvious
> again -- one of the original libraries of guitar techniques in
surf
> clearly came out of country music--Dick Dale played country
before
> he became King of the Surf Guitar, and there is the rockabilly
> tradition, definitely an influence--also, both bluegrass and
surf
> employ double picking, also, both rely heavily on minor modes
and
> minor scale progressions--in bluegrass, they call it sawmill
tuning,
> think-- pretty polly, or east virginia, or walking boss or shady
> grove. Also, in both forms, there are flat out, balls to the
wall
> rhythmic sequences that have certain aspects in common. The
> influence of Clarence White, formerly of the Kentucky Gentlemen,
> later, the Byrds, is obvious in the playing of Jim Thomas, as
well
> as other notable surf guitarists, fr instance.
>
> Not to put too fine a point on it, I just think its an
interesting
> contrast and compare type of thing. Obviously, the feel, the
> ambiance is different, but still...the breakdown form can be
> ultimately traced to the music of the Gypsies, or Rom, as can
some
> aspects of Surf.
>
> One final note -- I have heard bluegrass bands do curious
versions
> of pipeline, and miserlou--so some leakage has occurred in both
> directions.
>
> I always thought that the conflict in the surf music world,
between
> the traditionalists, and the progressives, was interesting,
because,
> sometimes, in a conflict or disagreement, there is a nugget of
> information that is missing from both arguments, which tend to
be
> incomplete, or one sided. I like to pick apart that nugget to
see if
> it contains any gold. There is magic in conflict. In nature,
great
> accidental beauty is sometimes the product of conflict.
>
> J
>
>
> --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> wrote:
> > The answer to "are they really that discrete" depends on
whether
> you
> > define them from a musicological or time period point of view.
Most
> > people on these lists seem to mean time periods, but that does
not
> jive
> > with the music's evolution or sound.
> >
> > First Wave: The Heyday
> >
> > The beginning (post all precursors because you just have to
draw a
> line
> > in the sand somewhere) was 1961 with the Belairs recording
of "Mr.
> > Moto" (5.61) and Dick Dale's recording of "Let's Go Trippin'"
> (8.61).
> > Neither represents the sound of surf, but historians will
generally
> > agree this is where it started.
> >
> > The sound evolved rapidly, and by 1962 with the advent of the
> reverb,
> > took on the signature sound. Perhaps the most stereotypical
surf
> > instros is the Chantays' "Pipeline." Within the first wave,
there
> were
> > actually many different sub-set sounds. Dick Dale. The
Chantays,
> the
> > Belairs, Eddie and the Showmen, the Surfaris, the Original
> Surfaris,
> > the Sentinals, and others all had unique sounds.
> >
> > By '63, some changes began to creep in, such as hot rod titles
and
> > sound effects. By '64, space and sci-fi were new influences,
again
> > changing the sound significantly. By '65, the end was at hand.
The
> > first wave is generally from 1961 through 1965, with a few odd
> singles
> > and surf guitar influences following through the remainder of
the
> > sixties.
> >
> > Second Wave: The Revival
> >
> > The revival was just what its name implies, a rejuvenation of
the
> first
> > wave sounds and styles. In some ways, it was more of a
reliving of
> the
> > past. It also often has bands lumped in that were really the
> beginnings
> > of the third wave (more later).
> >
> > The probably poster band of the revival was Jon and the
> Nightriders. In
> > '79, they cut 4 tracks and issued a seven-inch ep.
Contemporary to
> them
> > ('79 and '80) were Cowabunga (SF Bay Area), the Surf Raiders,
the
> El
> > Caminos (pre-Vibrabeams, Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas), the
Wedge,
> and
> > the Evasions, among others.
> >
> > This "wave" continues today in the trad bands.
> >
> > Third Wave: Rebirth
> >
> > Just like the original wave, when surf was in constant
evolution,
> the
> > sound inevitably began incorporating new features and ideas.
Just
> as
> > the first wave took influences from Spanish, Mexican,
Flamenco,
> West
> > Coast Jazz, Country, and the Islands, and added sound effects,
> space
> > themes, and varied the lineup to include new instruments over
the
> first
> > few years, so the "revival" would give birth to reinvention.
> >
> > Beginning as early as 1979, the seeds were sown for the third
> wave. The
> > Insect Surfers (then in the DC area) brought surf ideas into
their
> > sound before moving and dropping the new wave for surf reborn
with
> > non-traditional instruments and sounds. The El Caminos (pre-
> Vibrabeams,
> > Tidetones, and Surf Piranhas) were a hybrid right from the
start
> with
> > rockabilly drums and their demented diving lyrics and
commentary.
> The
> > Halibuts can be seen in either the second or third wave. I
think of
> > them mostly as third wave because they merged ska with
traditional
> > sounds for a significantly different sound.
> >
> > The burst of creativity in terms of volume did not come until
> around
> > 1989 and 1990 when San Francisco area bands suddenly used surf
as a
> > platform for a new direction. This sparked the ongoing trad
wars.
> > Notable among the early cart up-setters were/are the Ultras,
the
> > Mermen, and Pollo Del Mar. From these bands influence,
eventually
> > hundreds of bands were freed from seeing surf as a museum
piece,
> freed
> > to transgress into bold new territory. This is where many of
> today's
> > bands descend from.
> >
> > From a volume of bands and releases point of view, it's more
like a
> > calendar.
> >
> > First Wave: 1961-1965
> > Second Wave: 1979-1986
> > Third Wave: 1989-2000
> > Fourth Wave: 2002-present.
> >
> > The trouble with this definition is that many of the bands
have
> little
> > in common. It's not a cohesive sound by any stretch amid any
of
> these
> > periods.
> >
> > That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > --- Rob Campbell <mantid@g...> wrote:
> > Would anyone be able to run down the "waves" of surf music,
and a
> > representational act or album for each? I've tried searching
and
> its
> > too nebula-ous of a term.
> >
> > What wave are we on now? Are they really that discrete?
>
>
>
>
>
> .
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messages, bookmarks, files, polls, etc.
>
>
>
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