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Dusty is a great all around drummer that can play surf among many other
things- his style is obviously more involved than that of your typical surf
drummer, but definitely works in a four piece arrangement, too - buy some
J&TNR on CD and you will see - there's one more guitar, but its still
Dusty - no mistake about it.
Too bad about SRV - I met him once at college - I doubt it was sabotage -
just unfortunate. I don't think I'd wish anyone else dead in his place -
Clapton made a significant contribution back in the 60s before he got hooked
on smack in the 70s. I don't know, maybe the survivng members of Skynyrd
are due for another plane ride.
tfj
----- Original Message -----
From: rock verb <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention TooFastJim)
> Jeez, Jim, you're on a roll....five more posts and you'll have a book to
> publish!
>
> good thing you started this thread, it's nioce to find that there's more
> musicians with an interest broader then their own instrument.
Bandmembers'
> inetrest in eachothers sound, parts and the overall sound can be a major
> contribution toi the band. and it's lots of fun.
>
> in my former band i used to play an A-flat solo over an A song, just to
> check whether anyone was listining. it usually went unnoticed. and about
> the PA, don't know how it is in the States, here in Holland bands tend to
> play in so-called youth-centres, and they all have (crappy) PA's. most
bars
> have one too. Our drummer playes relatively soft, back then with 7A
> sticks.... And really, always the PA guy would be complaining he had to
hit
> harder, because it couldn't be amplified. but this is how hard he hits!!!
I
> don't know what it is, bad mics, bad amp, but somehow it just never
worked.
> sorry, my little frustration.
>
> Dusty, in my humble opinion, is not really a surf-drummer -ouch, don't
kill
> me (maybe he is, but he doesn't play surf-drums, is what i mean). He is a
> fantastic rock-drummer, and the greatness of both Slacktone and the recent
> DD is that they somehow bring the different styles they play together
> perfectly. Thus awesome in a three piece innovative surf band.... in a
> trad-style four-piece, i don't know... doesn't he play with Jon and the
> nightriders? how is he there? (sorry, i bought one LP of them, but gave it
> away since i didn't have a record player) just my two cents...
>
> anyway, keep posting about drums
>
> wannes
>
> i read you on dd/srv. still think that SRV should have stuck to
blues-rock.
> think he should have left that helicopter ride to Clapton too. Think it
was
> sabotaged? think they were after Clapton? Don't you love
> conspieracy-theories?
>
>
> >From: "toofastjim" <>
> >Reply-To:
> >To: <>
> >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> >TooFastJim)
> >Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:45:25 -0500
> >
> >Its always best when no one screws up, but you are right in that lead
> >guitar
> >and drum mistakes are usually noticed the most.
> >
> >I like surf drums when they're tuned jazzy (ie, somewhat high pitched
with
> >a
> >lot of ring) - the rest of the band noise usually absorbs the ringing of
> >the
> >drums & it sounds good most of the time - I also don't lke too much kick
> >drum in the mix - less kick puts more emphasis on the back beat, but
again
> >just my opinion. I actually prefer playing smaller rooms - takes the
whole
> >PA guy issue out of the picture & then the drums (and everything else)
are
> >only as loud as you play 'em. Hopefully when there is a sound guy, he
puts
> >me in the proper place in the mix & lets everything else be heard,
> >especially the lead guitar. If the kit is miked, it shouldn't matter how
> >hard you hit the drums, but if you're lucky enough to get a sound check,
> >make sure you hit the drums then as loud as you will when you start the
> >show - or else the drum mikes will start clipping & distorting. I
remember
> >Rip from the Penetrators posting something awhile ago stating that they
> >would bring a tip sheet for an uninitiated sound guy telling him how to
mix
> >the band. I would like to think we make it easy for sound guys because
we
> >don't have any vocals & don't talk too much (at our Halloween show, we
> >didn't say one word - the front line just pointed to The Nebulas logo on
my
> >bass drum & then held up signs that said CDs $10 / Buy or Die).
> >
> >I guess I hit the drums fairly hard, but I use light sticks, but if the
> >music requires a certain degree of intensity (hard & fast), then I aims
to
> >deliver. Speaking of hard-hitters, Dusty makes me sound like I'm using
> >brushes - although I don't think he plays too loud given who he's playing
> >with. He can play quiet, though - I've heard him. (listen to The New
> >Relampagos) - so its important to be able to play quiet if the song (or
> >song
> >part) calls for it - its all about dynamics. And Birdstuff is no subdued
> >jazz tapper, either - he plays hard and mean. This is not the same as
> >having to play your hard and fast stuff real quiet because you booked
> >yourself into a room suited for string quartets and acoustic duos &
volume
> >-
> >that's no fun - the band rarely enjoys it because they have to hold back
&
> >the audience gets ripped off because they only hear a 4 cylinder version
of
> >an 8 cylinder song. That's why we have demo CDs for booking - if you
> >think
> >aggressive surf music played with big amps (or more recently with really
> >loud little ones) will be too loud for your bar - don't book us. So far,
> >we
> >haven't had any volume complaints from any establishments we've played &
> >usually don't play louder than the other bands on the bill.
> >
> >The Live in Japan Caravan solo starts out with all drums for a while,
> >reaches a crescendo & then the bass guitar comes in - Mel may even be
> >hitting the strings with a stick while Bob fingers the fret board (I'll
> >have
> >to refer to my video copy of the performance to be sure), but the bass
> >notes
> >sound very percussive and this was long before Tony Levin started using
his
> >little finger sticks. Anyhoo, after the bass bit, the drums solo alone
> >again for a while before the whole band comes back in. Drum solos over
> >bass or guitar vamps sound fine too - listen to Satan's Pilgims version
of
> >"Casbah" & you'll find Johnny playing away while Teddy solos over the
top.
> >The point is, its still more interesting than Wipe Out.
> >
> >I have no problem with the SRV/dd version of Pipleine - it helped bring
> >surf
> >briefly back into mainstream rock & illustrated that it was an influence
> >among many guitar players. It also gave dd some more exposure, too.
Its
> >ok for a bar band to play that (or Wipeout) as their token surf song, but
I
> >think what I was trying say in my previous rants was if I'm going to see
a
> >surf band play surf/instro all night, I would rather they skipped those
two
> >(and a few others) and play their originals or obscure, less-covered
> >covers.
> >Just don't ask me about Gary Hoey and the rest of the Endless Summer II
> >soundtrack - it may be technically proficient, but not my cup of tea.
> >
> >toofastjim
> >The Nebulas
> >
> >www.thenebulas.com
> >
> >
> >PS - the opions stated above are just mine & shouldn't be taken too
> >seriously - if you're a drummer who likes to use thick heads with oil
> >between the plies and then still muffle whatever life they may have had
out
> >of them - go for it. As long as it results in the sound you're trying to
> >achieve - and your band is happy with it. Fortunately, I'm in a band
> >whose
> >members notice (and actively point out with disapproval) when I throw
> >something other than a single ply coated white head on a drum - I
> >appreciate
> >the fact they care about such things - especially because they're right -
> >it
> >was just a test to see if they were listening. Likewise, I like it when
> >they use 11s because they don't break as much as the 10s & string
snapping
> >is something everyone notices.
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: rock verb <>
> >To: <>
> >Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:34 AM
> >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> >TooFastJim)
> >
> >
> > > great post from the man with the oval bassdrum!
> > >
> > > no, i'm not a drummer, and yes, drums is a key-ingredient in surf.
> >Drummer
> > > and lead guitarist are on a shared 1st place when it comes to 'not
> >allowed
> > > to screw up'. Really, the bass and the rythm guitar can miss a not or
a
> > > chord every now and then (not saying they should, though), but a fuck
up
> >by
> > > the drummer will be immediatly noticed. respect for all the drummers.
> > >
> > > i like my surf drums to have a jazzy sound, a little back in the mix,
> >very
> > > dynamical and simple. Do all P.A.-people in general have a problem
with
> > > drummers that don't hit the kit as hard as they can?? Oh, and please
no
> > > compressors/gates on the drums!! Slacktone is the example to the rule,
> >of
> > > course, and obviously being a three-piece leaves much more room to the
> > > drummer.
> > >
> > > Good to point out the caravan-solo, but uhhh, isn't he playing bass
> >there
> > > too?
> > >
> > > wannes
> > >
> > > PS, your comment about pipeline, how about that version with steve ray
> > > vaughn????
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "toofastjim" <>
> > > >Reply-To:
> > > >To: <>
> > > >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> > > >TooFastJim)
> > > >Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:16:39 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Shit! I thought this was a message board about MILF hunters
worldwide
> >-
> >I
> > > >must be in the wrong place. Seriously, I would like to think and
hope
> >that
> > > >I'm not the only non-plank-plucker to hang out on this list. You
don't
> > > >have
> > > >to rename the thing, either - surf music is primarily a guitar-driven
> >genre
> > > >anyway & getting the surf sound out of the guitar (strings, amps,
> >speakers,
> > > >effects, microphones, tubes, tube mods, tolex, grill cloth - all that
> > > >shite)
> > > >is of the utmost importance. It helps to have the right equipment
(for
> >all
> > > >musicians, not just guitar) but once you start recording, the results
> >can
> > > >sound really good or really bad regardless of the instruments - its
up
> >to
> > > >the engineer to accurately capture the sound being produced by each
> > > >instrument - for most live surf gigs, you're on your own, so you
better
> > > >have
> > > >the equipment to get the sound you're looking for - or be prepared to
> >get
> > > >pissed off and pout in the corner for a spell. Drums are pretty
> >straight
> > > >forward - you put the head on the drum & tighten it. Just like the
> >guitar,
> > > >there are certain heads & drum sizes to use to get the desired sound,
> >but
> >I
> > > >think there are more alternatives in the guitar world - although from
> >an
> > > >aesthetic standpoint, if your guitar player is going to play with a
> >vintage
> > > >(or vintage-looking) Mosrite or Jag (not Jagstang OR Jagmaster)
> >through
> >a
> > > >1965 Showman cabinet & matching 1965 blackface reverb tank, you may
as
> > > >well
> > > >throw down 3/4 of what he paid for the cabinet alone on a vintage
drum
> >kit
> > > >(prefereably in a sparkle or pearl wrap) to complete the whole
> >retro/surf
> > > >stage presentation - the whole band just looks authentic when you do
it
> > > >that
> > > >way, but of course the sound has to come before all else.
> > > >
> > > >And now to the Q & A portion of our programme:
> > > >
> > > > > I really respect drummers and admire what they do (it seems
> >impossible
> > > >to
> > > > > the non-player). What do you feel the drummer's role in a surf
band
> > > >should
> > > > > be? Is it different than other genres?
> > > >
> > > >The drummer's role in any band is to provide a foundation for the
> >rhythm
> > > >section, upon which every other element of the music is based. If
you
> > > >don't
> > > >have solid drums, bass & preferably rhythm guitar laying it down,
> > > >everything on top of that, whether its a guitar melody line, organ
solo
> >or
> > > >even a vocal, will not sound as good (read: full) as it can. I
think
> >its
> > > >important for drummers in all genres not to overstep their bounds &
> >start
> > > >crowding the lead instrument (or vocal if there is one) - then one
> >becomes
> > > >less of a drummer & more of a wanker. For instro music, I view my
> >role
> >as
> > > >a beat-keeper, particularly in the traditional four-piece arrangement
> >that
> > > >I
> > > >am currently in. The same could be said for a five piece combo -
> >factoring
> > > >in the sax, organ or 3rd guitar - the drummer's role should be that
of
> >a
> > > >beat-master, maybe throwing in some basic fills to transition from
one
> > > >section to the next with the occasional 8 or 16 bar drum break in
every
> >3rd
> > > >or 4th song. In a trio, its a little more difficult as there is a
> >lot
> > > >more space to fill with fewer people to do it - usually it can
involve
> >one
> > > >single hyperactive guitar, too busy drums and/or an overplayed bass
(if
> >one
> > > >or two of those elements is grossly out of proportion with the rest,
> >the
> > > >results could be less than gratifying). Slacktone would be the
notable
> > > >exception to this - they seem very balanced - as active as Dusty is,
> >their
> > > >recordings/performances never seem to favor one instrument - sure the
> >drums
> > > >are busy, but because of what Meyer Wronski is doing, the whole mix
> >doesn't
> > > >seem drum heavy. Conversely, as amazing as Dave Wronski is - the mix
> > > >doesn't sound guitar heavy because of what's going on behind the 1971
> > > >Ludwig
> > > >Blue Sparkles - and of course whether you're listening to Mike or Sam
> >on
> > > >bass, they certainly contribute their 33.333% to the mix - again,
the
> >bass
> > > >doesn't overtake the performance, but at the same time, its the
> >furthest
> > > >thing from a guitar and drum-dominated trio. Other trios augment
their
> > > >recording sound with an extra instrument (Mark Brodie's various
> >projects
> >or
> > > >The Sir Finks come to mind) or sound effects & stuff (Destination
> >Earth)
> >&
> > > >that's all good, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a trio that can pull
> >it
> > > >off
> > > >as good as Slacktone. To get back to the question - in surf/instro
> >music,
> > > >there is no vocal, so the drummer has a little more room to
embellish,
> >but
> > > >it should not be at the expense of the total band sound &
particularly
> >that
> > > >of the lead instrument - I like to play in and out of whatever
phrases
> >the
> > > >lead guy (or girl) is playing & just leave him be during the middle
of
> >it -
> > > >afterall - everyone's looking at the guitar player anyway, right?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Whats the worst thing a guitar player can do to a drummer when
> >playing?
> > > >Play
> > > > > too loud? Play out of time?
> > > >
> > > >No and yes. If I'm behind my kit & all I hear is the lead guitar,
is
> >he
> > > >playing too loud?? Maybe... or maybe not. The mix may sound
perfect
> >out
> > > >front (which is all that really matters) but because of my proximity
to
> >the
> > > >other amps, my perception may be biased towards one instrument over
the
> > > >rest. In my situation, I play off the bass & the lead guitar - I
like
> >to
> > > >hear the rhythm, too, & I think its essential to the overall
> > > >instrumentation
> > > >of the band, but I only need to hear the bass to groove with and the
> >lead
> > > >guitar to follow the changes. I can only assume that the rhythm
guitar
> > > >player is doing his part (he usually is) and filling out the sound,
but
> >I
> > > >have enough problems holding onto two sticks and doing my own job. I
> >would
> > > >rather the guitar is too loud than too soft - my hearing might come
> >back
> > > >someday, but I rarely forgive myself if I screw something up because
I
> > > >can't
> > > >hear the guitar (god damn our verson of 3rd Star in Monterey to
hell).
> >And
> > > >yes, if someone goes out of time, especially the lead guitar player
(or
> > > >worse yet, the drummer) then that's no fun. Hopefully 75% of the
band
> >will
> > > >be playing one way & the final fourth can find his way back into the
> >folds
> > > >&
> > > >recover. If two people go one way and the other two go another, then
> >it
> > > >sounds like a wrestling match looks being filmed in the back of a
panel
> >van
> > > >travelling down Sunset Blvd. on a limited budget. To summarize, its
a
> > > >clusterfuck, folks.
> > > >
> > > > > Where do you stand on the whole "Wipeout" issue? I remember a
thread
> >on
> > > >Cow.
> > > > > or Reverborama where most bands poo-poo'ed the notion of playing
it
> > > >live.
> > > >Is
> > > > > it a drummer's signature song or a tired stereotype of the genre?
> > > >
> > > >Well, "Wipeout" is a great example of good surf drums - the beat
> >originated
> > > >as a cadence played by drummers in the school marching band - but
there
> >are
> > > >other good examples of surf drums too. I think because of the song's
> > > >overwhelming popularity, it has achieved novelty status, so its
> >probably
> > > >common for cover bands to do it & say they do a surf tune & everyone
> >will
> > > >like it. While its certainly Ron Wilson's signature song, I don't
> >think
> >it
> > > >has to be a drummer's signature song - at least in a modern surf band
> > > >setting. I mean, normal rock drummers will probably come across it
at
> > > >some
> > > >point in their development - figure out how to play it (which isn't
> >that
> > > >hard) & be done with it. As a fan and player of the true
surf/instro
> > > >music, I would join ranks with those that poo poo the notion of
playing
> >it
> > > >live - I would say the same thing of Pipeline (go ahead, castrate the
> > > >blasphemer) - I mean both songs are so well known (and so often
> >covered)
> > > >that I don't need to hear either one again (live or covered). If
> >you're
> >in
> > > >a band & playing in a situation where playing those songs will get
you
> >more
> > > >money, or prevent rotten vegetables from being hurled at you, then by
> >all
> > > >means play 'em. I just try and avoid those gigs if I can. Going
back
> >to
> > > >the previous question again, the absolute worse thing that can happen
> >to
> >a
> > > >drummer is when the guitar player goes out of time while you're
playing
> >one
> > > >of the above-mentioned standards under protest in public & the whole
> >thing
> > > >becomes a debacle of mass proportions. So if you do decide to play
> >Wipe
> > > >Out, make sure it sounds impeccable & that everyone in the band can
> >play
> >it
> > > >without a hitch - you don't want to be known as the surf band that
> >can't
> > > >play Wipe Out correctly - especially when that may be the only song
the
> > > >audience knows. I'll take Hal Blaine's performance on "K-39" or Mel
> > > >Taylor's "Caravan" solo from The Ventures 1965 Live in Japan over
> >"Wipe
> > > >Out" any day.
> > > >
> > > > > What are some of the best surf tunes for drummers?
> > > >
> > > >To listen to or play? K-39 is just a masterpiece as far as a
> >consistent
> > > >recording, stick control & dynamics are concerned. I listen to surf
> >music
> > > >for the guitar sound (different textures & sounds, lead & rhythm
> >interplay,
> > > >etc), so as long as the drummer is doing his/her job than I'm happy
as
> >a
> > > >listener. I really hate recordings where the guitar sound is great &
> >the
> > > >drums sound like crap (or worse when they sound like crap and they're
> >too
> > > >loud in the mix). Every drummer approaches a song differently, so
some
> >may
> > > >be more enjoyable for some than others - it all depends on the
drummer.
> > > >Play any Straitjackets song & I'll like it because Jimmy Lester is an
> > > >awesome drummer as are so many others. There are so many 1st Wave
> >songs
> > > >that feature good, yet simple & effective drums (Margaya by the
Fender
> >IV,
> > > >Exotic by The Sentinals, Time Bomb by The Avengers VI, Surf Party by
> >The
> > > >Astronauts, Third Star from the Left by The Nocturnes, & of course
The
> > > >Wedge). The best surf tunes to play for drummers are what the
> >drummers
> > > >themselves make out of them. Personally I like playing all of the
> >songs
> >we
> > > >play (both originals and covers) because I can play almost whatever I
> >want
> > > >&
> > > >have a good time and not get in anyone else's way while doing it. I
> >most
> > > >enjoy playing a basic surf beat & listening to whatever evil sounds
are
> > > >coming out of the guitar amps with a big smile on my face - there is
a
> > > >reason we wear dark pants in The Nebulas!
> > > >
> > > >toofastjim
> > > >The Nebulas
> > > >
> > > >www.thenebulas.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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