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Its always best when no one screws up, but you are right in that lead guitar
and drum mistakes are usually noticed the most.
I like surf drums when they're tuned jazzy (ie, somewhat high pitched with a
lot of ring) - the rest of the band noise usually absorbs the ringing of the
drums & it sounds good most of the time - I also don't lke too much kick
drum in the mix - less kick puts more emphasis on the back beat, but again
just my opinion. I actually prefer playing smaller rooms - takes the whole
PA guy issue out of the picture & then the drums (and everything else) are
only as loud as you play 'em. Hopefully when there is a sound guy, he puts
me in the proper place in the mix & lets everything else be heard,
especially the lead guitar. If the kit is miked, it shouldn't matter how
hard you hit the drums, but if you're lucky enough to get a sound check,
make sure you hit the drums then as loud as you will when you start the
show - or else the drum mikes will start clipping & distorting. I remember
Rip from the Penetrators posting something awhile ago stating that they
would bring a tip sheet for an uninitiated sound guy telling him how to mix
the band. I would like to think we make it easy for sound guys because we
don't have any vocals & don't talk too much (at our Halloween show, we
didn't say one word - the front line just pointed to The Nebulas logo on my
bass drum & then held up signs that said CDs $10 / Buy or Die).
I guess I hit the drums fairly hard, but I use light sticks, but if the
music requires a certain degree of intensity (hard & fast), then I aims to
deliver. Speaking of hard-hitters, Dusty makes me sound like I'm using
brushes - although I don't think he plays too loud given who he's playing
with. He can play quiet, though - I've heard him. (listen to The New
Relampagos) - so its important to be able to play quiet if the song (or song
part) calls for it - its all about dynamics. And Birdstuff is no subdued
jazz tapper, either - he plays hard and mean. This is not the same as
having to play your hard and fast stuff real quiet because you booked
yourself into a room suited for string quartets and acoustic duos & volume -
that's no fun - the band rarely enjoys it because they have to hold back &
the audience gets ripped off because they only hear a 4 cylinder version of
an 8 cylinder song. That's why we have demo CDs for booking - if you think
aggressive surf music played with big amps (or more recently with really
loud little ones) will be too loud for your bar - don't book us. So far, we
haven't had any volume complaints from any establishments we've played &
usually don't play louder than the other bands on the bill.
The Live in Japan Caravan solo starts out with all drums for a while,
reaches a crescendo & then the bass guitar comes in - Mel may even be
hitting the strings with a stick while Bob fingers the fret board (I'll have
to refer to my video copy of the performance to be sure), but the bass notes
sound very percussive and this was long before Tony Levin started using his
little finger sticks. Anyhoo, after the bass bit, the drums solo alone
again for a while before the whole band comes back in. Drum solos over
bass or guitar vamps sound fine too - listen to Satan's Pilgims version of
"Casbah" & you'll find Johnny playing away while Teddy solos over the top.
The point is, its still more interesting than Wipe Out.
I have no problem with the SRV/dd version of Pipleine - it helped bring surf
briefly back into mainstream rock & illustrated that it was an influence
among many guitar players. It also gave dd some more exposure, too. Its
ok for a bar band to play that (or Wipeout) as their token surf song, but I
think what I was trying say in my previous rants was if I'm going to see a
surf band play surf/instro all night, I would rather they skipped those two
(and a few others) and play their originals or obscure, less-covered covers.
Just don't ask me about Gary Hoey and the rest of the Endless Summer II
soundtrack - it may be technically proficient, but not my cup of tea.
toofastjim
The Nebulas
www.thenebulas.com
PS - the opions stated above are just mine & shouldn't be taken too
seriously - if you're a drummer who likes to use thick heads with oil
between the plies and then still muffle whatever life they may have had out
of them - go for it. As long as it results in the sound you're trying to
achieve - and your band is happy with it. Fortunately, I'm in a band whose
members notice (and actively point out with disapproval) when I throw
something other than a single ply coated white head on a drum - I appreciate
the fact they care about such things - especially because they're right - it
was just a test to see if they were listening. Likewise, I like it when
they use 11s because they don't break as much as the 10s & string snapping
is something everyone notices.
----- Original Message -----
From: rock verb <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention TooFastJim)
> great post from the man with the oval bassdrum!
>
> no, i'm not a drummer, and yes, drums is a key-ingredient in surf. Drummer
> and lead guitarist are on a shared 1st place when it comes to 'not allowed
> to screw up'. Really, the bass and the rythm guitar can miss a not or a
> chord every now and then (not saying they should, though), but a fuck up
by
> the drummer will be immediatly noticed. respect for all the drummers.
>
> i like my surf drums to have a jazzy sound, a little back in the mix,
very
> dynamical and simple. Do all P.A.-people in general have a problem with
> drummers that don't hit the kit as hard as they can?? Oh, and please no
> compressors/gates on the drums!! Slacktone is the example to the rule, of
> course, and obviously being a three-piece leaves much more room to the
> drummer.
>
> Good to point out the caravan-solo, but uhhh, isn't he playing bass there
> too?
>
> wannes
>
> PS, your comment about pipeline, how about that version with steve ray
> vaughn????
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "toofastjim" <>
> >Reply-To:
> >To: <>
> >Subject: Re: [SurfGuitar101] A Drummer's Perspective? (attention
> >TooFastJim)
> >Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:16:39 -0500
> >
> >Shit! I thought this was a message board about MILF hunters worldwide -
I
> >must be in the wrong place. Seriously, I would like to think and hope
that
> >I'm not the only non-plank-plucker to hang out on this list. You don't
> >have
> >to rename the thing, either - surf music is primarily a guitar-driven
genre
> >anyway & getting the surf sound out of the guitar (strings, amps,
speakers,
> >effects, microphones, tubes, tube mods, tolex, grill cloth - all that
> >shite)
> >is of the utmost importance. It helps to have the right equipment (for
all
> >musicians, not just guitar) but once you start recording, the results can
> >sound really good or really bad regardless of the instruments - its up to
> >the engineer to accurately capture the sound being produced by each
> >instrument - for most live surf gigs, you're on your own, so you better
> >have
> >the equipment to get the sound you're looking for - or be prepared to get
> >pissed off and pout in the corner for a spell. Drums are pretty straight
> >forward - you put the head on the drum & tighten it. Just like the
guitar,
> >there are certain heads & drum sizes to use to get the desired sound, but
I
> >think there are more alternatives in the guitar world - although from an
> >aesthetic standpoint, if your guitar player is going to play with a
vintage
> >(or vintage-looking) Mosrite or Jag (not Jagstang OR Jagmaster) through
a
> >1965 Showman cabinet & matching 1965 blackface reverb tank, you may as
> >well
> >throw down 3/4 of what he paid for the cabinet alone on a vintage drum
kit
> >(prefereably in a sparkle or pearl wrap) to complete the whole retro/surf
> >stage presentation - the whole band just looks authentic when you do it
> >that
> >way, but of course the sound has to come before all else.
> >
> >And now to the Q & A portion of our programme:
> >
> > > I really respect drummers and admire what they do (it seems impossible
> >to
> > > the non-player). What do you feel the drummer's role in a surf band
> >should
> > > be? Is it different than other genres?
> >
> >The drummer's role in any band is to provide a foundation for the rhythm
> >section, upon which every other element of the music is based. If you
> >don't
> >have solid drums, bass & preferably rhythm guitar laying it down,
> >everything on top of that, whether its a guitar melody line, organ solo
or
> >even a vocal, will not sound as good (read: full) as it can. I think
its
> >important for drummers in all genres not to overstep their bounds & start
> >crowding the lead instrument (or vocal if there is one) - then one
becomes
> >less of a drummer & more of a wanker. For instro music, I view my role
as
> >a beat-keeper, particularly in the traditional four-piece arrangement
that
> >I
> >am currently in. The same could be said for a five piece combo -
factoring
> >in the sax, organ or 3rd guitar - the drummer's role should be that of a
> >beat-master, maybe throwing in some basic fills to transition from one
> >section to the next with the occasional 8 or 16 bar drum break in every
3rd
> >or 4th song. In a trio, its a little more difficult as there is a lot
> >more space to fill with fewer people to do it - usually it can involve
one
> >single hyperactive guitar, too busy drums and/or an overplayed bass (if
one
> >or two of those elements is grossly out of proportion with the rest, the
> >results could be less than gratifying). Slacktone would be the notable
> >exception to this - they seem very balanced - as active as Dusty is,
their
> >recordings/performances never seem to favor one instrument - sure the
drums
> >are busy, but because of what Meyer Wronski is doing, the whole mix
doesn't
> >seem drum heavy. Conversely, as amazing as Dave Wronski is - the mix
> >doesn't sound guitar heavy because of what's going on behind the 1971
> >Ludwig
> >Blue Sparkles - and of course whether you're listening to Mike or Sam on
> >bass, they certainly contribute their 33.333% to the mix - again, the
bass
> >doesn't overtake the performance, but at the same time, its the furthest
> >thing from a guitar and drum-dominated trio. Other trios augment their
> >recording sound with an extra instrument (Mark Brodie's various projects
or
> >The Sir Finks come to mind) or sound effects & stuff (Destination Earth)
&
> >that's all good, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a trio that can pull it
> >off
> >as good as Slacktone. To get back to the question - in surf/instro
music,
> >there is no vocal, so the drummer has a little more room to embellish,
but
> >it should not be at the expense of the total band sound & particularly
that
> >of the lead instrument - I like to play in and out of whatever phrases
the
> >lead guy (or girl) is playing & just leave him be during the middle of
it -
> >afterall - everyone's looking at the guitar player anyway, right?
> >
> >
> > > Whats the worst thing a guitar player can do to a drummer when
playing?
> >Play
> > > too loud? Play out of time?
> >
> >No and yes. If I'm behind my kit & all I hear is the lead guitar, is he
> >playing too loud?? Maybe... or maybe not. The mix may sound perfect
out
> >front (which is all that really matters) but because of my proximity to
the
> >other amps, my perception may be biased towards one instrument over the
> >rest. In my situation, I play off the bass & the lead guitar - I like to
> >hear the rhythm, too, & I think its essential to the overall
> >instrumentation
> >of the band, but I only need to hear the bass to groove with and the lead
> >guitar to follow the changes. I can only assume that the rhythm guitar
> >player is doing his part (he usually is) and filling out the sound, but I
> >have enough problems holding onto two sticks and doing my own job. I
would
> >rather the guitar is too loud than too soft - my hearing might come back
> >someday, but I rarely forgive myself if I screw something up because I
> >can't
> >hear the guitar (god damn our verson of 3rd Star in Monterey to hell).
And
> >yes, if someone goes out of time, especially the lead guitar player (or
> >worse yet, the drummer) then that's no fun. Hopefully 75% of the band
will
> >be playing one way & the final fourth can find his way back into the
folds
> >&
> >recover. If two people go one way and the other two go another, then it
> >sounds like a wrestling match looks being filmed in the back of a panel
van
> >travelling down Sunset Blvd. on a limited budget. To summarize, its a
> >clusterfuck, folks.
> >
> > > Where do you stand on the whole "Wipeout" issue? I remember a thread
on
> >Cow.
> > > or Reverborama where most bands poo-poo'ed the notion of playing it
> >live.
> >Is
> > > it a drummer's signature song or a tired stereotype of the genre?
> >
> >Well, "Wipeout" is a great example of good surf drums - the beat
originated
> >as a cadence played by drummers in the school marching band - but there
are
> >other good examples of surf drums too. I think because of the song's
> >overwhelming popularity, it has achieved novelty status, so its probably
> >common for cover bands to do it & say they do a surf tune & everyone will
> >like it. While its certainly Ron Wilson's signature song, I don't think
it
> >has to be a drummer's signature song - at least in a modern surf band
> >setting. I mean, normal rock drummers will probably come across it at
> >some
> >point in their development - figure out how to play it (which isn't that
> >hard) & be done with it. As a fan and player of the true surf/instro
> >music, I would join ranks with those that poo poo the notion of playing
it
> >live - I would say the same thing of Pipeline (go ahead, castrate the
> >blasphemer) - I mean both songs are so well known (and so often covered)
> >that I don't need to hear either one again (live or covered). If you're
in
> >a band & playing in a situation where playing those songs will get you
more
> >money, or prevent rotten vegetables from being hurled at you, then by all
> >means play 'em. I just try and avoid those gigs if I can. Going back to
> >the previous question again, the absolute worse thing that can happen to
a
> >drummer is when the guitar player goes out of time while you're playing
one
> >of the above-mentioned standards under protest in public & the whole
thing
> >becomes a debacle of mass proportions. So if you do decide to play Wipe
> >Out, make sure it sounds impeccable & that everyone in the band can play
it
> >without a hitch - you don't want to be known as the surf band that can't
> >play Wipe Out correctly - especially when that may be the only song the
> >audience knows. I'll take Hal Blaine's performance on "K-39" or Mel
> >Taylor's "Caravan" solo from The Ventures 1965 Live in Japan over "Wipe
> >Out" any day.
> >
> > > What are some of the best surf tunes for drummers?
> >
> >To listen to or play? K-39 is just a masterpiece as far as a consistent
> >recording, stick control & dynamics are concerned. I listen to surf
music
> >for the guitar sound (different textures & sounds, lead & rhythm
interplay,
> >etc), so as long as the drummer is doing his/her job than I'm happy as a
> >listener. I really hate recordings where the guitar sound is great & the
> >drums sound like crap (or worse when they sound like crap and they're too
> >loud in the mix). Every drummer approaches a song differently, so some
may
> >be more enjoyable for some than others - it all depends on the drummer.
> >Play any Straitjackets song & I'll like it because Jimmy Lester is an
> >awesome drummer as are so many others. There are so many 1st Wave songs
> >that feature good, yet simple & effective drums (Margaya by the Fender
IV,
> >Exotic by The Sentinals, Time Bomb by The Avengers VI, Surf Party by The
> >Astronauts, Third Star from the Left by The Nocturnes, & of course The
> >Wedge). The best surf tunes to play for drummers are what the drummers
> >themselves make out of them. Personally I like playing all of the songs
we
> >play (both originals and covers) because I can play almost whatever I
want
> >&
> >have a good time and not get in anyone else's way while doing it. I most
> >enjoy playing a basic surf beat & listening to whatever evil sounds are
> >coming out of the guitar amps with a big smile on my face - there is a
> >reason we wear dark pants in The Nebulas!
> >
> >toofastjim
> >The Nebulas
> >
> >www.thenebulas.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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