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Well Ivan,
I don't see the contradiction to Phil's argument that the Shadows did
not push the guitar envelope. The Shadows did prime many big name
English guitarists but, beyond introducing them to guitar, they had
little if any part in the evolution of the skills of those
guitarists. U.K. guitar skills were improved by looking to other
American guitar influences, primarily in the blues and jazz realm.
Looking at the big picture, The Shadows were a great band, quite
influntial in their part of the world though at a rudimentary level,
yet they didn't cause any kind of a stir in the U.S. The big names
that sight the Shadows as an influence shook the U.S. BUT those big
names had bigger influences than the Shadows. Much more often, in
interviews of the day the chief influence mentioned was the blues.
And even if some said the Shadows were an influence, the style they
played owed much more to other influences.
-Marty
--- In , "ipongrac" <ipongrac@g...>
wrote:
>
> Bill and Phil,
>
> to recap: I wasn't arguing that the Shadows were more or even as
> influential on surf bands as the Ventures! That would obviously be
> a ridiculous argument. Without Ventures, no surf music - it's as
> simple as that. The Shadows obviously had at most a peripheral
> influence on the surf scene, and probably not even that. And I
know
> that MANY surf guitarists were inspired by the Ventures to pick up
> the guitar.
>
> What I WAS saying is that the Shadows actually inspired many more
> guitarists who ended up becoming legendary (even though many surf
> fans may not really like them) then the Ventures. As Marty
> admitted, the list of the big-name guitarists that claim the
> Ventures as a primary influence is much smaller than the list of
the
> big-name guitarists that claim the Shadows as a primary influence.
>
> Which actually also contradicts Phil's claim that the Shadows
> created only copy-cat bands that did not evolve the music much.
> Well, I would agree if the music we're talking about is strictly
r&r
> instrumentals. The fact is that we saw much greater evolution of
> rock instros in the US as part of the surf scene, than we did in
> England and Europe as a result of the popularity of the Shadows
> (though there were quite a few great, unknown bands that did a lot
> of cool stuff without just slavishly copying the Shads - they're
> just not known very well to most US surf fans, bands like the
> Hunters, the Phantoms, the Outlaws, the Fentones, the Eagles, the
> Dakotas, the Cougars, etc.). but if we're talking about the
> evolution of the rock music as a whole (for better or worse)
there's
> no doubt in my mind that the Shadows had much more impact than the
> Ventures. I mean, look at these bands: Queen, Pink Floyd, Deep
> Purple, Dire Straits, etc., etc. Now give me the names of some
huge
> (non-instrumental) sixties, seventies, or eighties band where the
> guitarist claimed the Ventures as the primary influence. (I'm sure
> there are some, but none come to mind.) So, I think the Shadows
> created much more rock evolution (again, in many cases for the
> worse) than the Ventures.
>
> It is also for this reason that I would say that the Shadows were
> VERY influential in the US! However, the influence was quite
> indirect. Obviously the Shads were never able to break through
here
> in any way shape or form (well, "You're The One That I Want" and
> another big hit from the movie Grease were written by one of the
> Shadows...), but their indirect influence was huge.
>
> Ivan
>
> PS And yes, I know all about the Ventures impact on Japan. That's
> simply not what I was talking about.
>
> --- In , Phil Dirt <phildirt@r...>
> wrote:
> > Bill,
> >
> > I think your observations are right on the money. I've
> > talked with many US guitarists of the day, and have
> > been listening to this music since day one. What it
> > looks like to me goes something like this:
> >
> > The Shadows were virtually unknown in the US in the
> > sixties (only one LP release - the mistitled "Surfing
> > With The Shadows"), but they had a huge influence in
> > Britain and Europe. It was a different kind of
> > influence as well. Their sound was not just
> > influential, it was often copied outright, especially
> > today. It's hard to talk to an early sixties British
> > guitarist that doesn't mention them in their
> > influences list. Another difference is that they were
> > first down that sound path. One little piece of
> > evidence that they didn't influence US bands was the
> > one Shadows styled LP the Challengers did, a style
> > change they quickly dropped to return to surf.
> >
> > In the US, the Ventures inspired huge numbers of
> > players, many of which had a 5 years' earlier
> > influences laying ground work, from Link Wray, Johnny
> > and the Hurricanes, and the Fireballs, and more.
> > Unlike the Shadows, the Ventures didn't inspire a
> > thousand sound-alikes, but rather a thousand bands,
> > each with their own sound. They created an environment
> > friendly to rock instro evolution.
> >
> > Secondly, the Ventures' "Play Guitar With" series was
> > the teacher to a whole lot of beginners.
> >
> > Third, the Ventures took rock instro to Japan and
> > sparked the eleki scene, essentially launching a new
> > era in Japanese music and culture. The impact they had
> > on Japan should not be understated. It was immense.
> > Like the Shadows in Europe, many of the eleki bands
> > copied the Ventures, but others evolved their own
> > unique sound.
> >
> > Lastly, and by way of observation, the instrumentals
> > covered around the world by other than Shadows styled
> > bands are virtually all of American origin, either
> > from the Ventures songbook or surf. "Walk, Don't Run,"
> > "Pipeline," etc. It may likely be the energy in the
> > music that makes the difference. The Shadows played
> > extremely polish, often beautiful songs, sometimes
> > with lush arrangements. The Ventures, surfbands, etc.,
> > on the other hand, were rock 'n' roll.
> >
> > As a final note, I also don't think it's valid to try
> > to demonstrate which is more important or more
> > credible or whatever. They are very different, apples
> > and oranges so to speak, and both had an influence few
> > bands can claim.
> >
> > Phil Dirt
> >
> > --- supertwangreverb <supertwangreverb@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Maybe the Shadows had more of an impact in Britian,
> > > but I doubt that for America, or even Japan. My
> > > dad is dead now but by looking through his record
> > > collection it's fairly easy to see which band
> > > influenced a 16-18 year old guitarsist in 1964.
> > > I'm sure his collection is rather similar to
> > > the countless other American garage
> > > bands of the mid 60s. I'm also willing to bet
> > > the Ventures had more of an influence on the actual
> > > American surf bands at the time as well.
> > > Lastly, aren't the Ventures responsible for a
> > > cultural change in Japan during 1965?
> >
> > =====
