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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Gear »

Need more dwell!

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MPoppitt Joined: Apr 23, 2006 Posts: 133 Austin TEXAS!	Posted on Sep 18 2006 03:53 PM Is there a SIMPLE mod to get some more dwell out of my stock Quad Reverb's reverb circuit? I'm lookin for a tad more 'drip'. What would happen if I put a 12ax7 in place of the 12at7 reverb driver? will it drive the pan harder, distort, or just mess things up? — Top
JeffLeites Joined: Mar 27, 2006 Posts: 343 North Hollywood, California	Posted on Sep 18 2006 09:19 PM I once accidentally reversed the 12AT7 and 12AX7. It resulted in lower output from having the 12AT7 in the recovery circuit, and distortion from having the 12AX7 in the preamp circuit. — My Web Site - Tunes - Pictures - Guitar Projects - Hard Rock Cafe Guitar Pins Top
MPoppitt Joined: Apr 23, 2006 Posts: 133 Austin TEXAS!	Posted on Sep 19 2006 01:43 AM Hmmm, I had a feeling it might distort. I didn't wanna try it in case it broke something. I wonder if something internal in the circuit can be changed to deal with the extra push from a 12ax7? — Top
WR Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 3832 netherlands	Posted on Sep 19 2006 03:25 AM why don't you just try it and see what it does? I dont think it could do much harm, they're subbed all the time, but Im sure you could find that on the net for sure. also the 5751 is a common substitute, Ive been advized the 5751 to get more out of the onboard, back when I was still using that. I cant remeber whetherI liked it.... or you could buy a reverb tank WR — Rules to live by #314: "When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is." https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/ Top
JeffLeites Joined: Mar 27, 2006 Posts: 343 North Hollywood, California	Posted on Sep 19 2006 07:55 PM WR's right, it won't hurt anything to try it. Both tubes have have the same "pin-out". — My Web Site - Tunes - Pictures - Guitar Projects - Hard Rock Cafe Guitar Pins Top
flatwound01 Joined: Mar 03, 2006 Posts: 464 Western MA	Posted on Sep 20 2006 05:27 AM The 5751 tube WR is talking is a "military" version of the 12AX7 that has about 30% less gain than the 12AX7. My tanks use a 12AT7 in the place of the 12AX7 - the 12AT7 has about 40% less gain than the 12AX7, as seems to reduce much of the "icepick" quality of my Fender reissue tank. To me, it also provides a litte more "drip" - check it out, it's a quick & easy "mod". Also, check out this suggestion from the Pedal Doctor site http://www.pedaldoctor.com/Repairs.html - it's in the lower right hand section of the reverb tank piece. The mod is pretty easy (and the site has some nice pics of a 1961 Fender tank!). This is one of Gerald Weber's mods - just attach a 220 ohm 1/4 watt resistor across the footswitch jack; it's said to "improve" the tone - a totally subjective result, of course. Good luck! -Dick — Fender Reissue Cap Mod Site http://home.comcast.net/~rmessick2/ Top
MPoppitt Joined: Apr 23, 2006 Posts: 133 Austin TEXAS!	Posted on Sep 20 2006 02:52 PM I threw a 12ax7 in there, and it did indeed distort. Oddly enough, it gave the reverb kind of a more distant quality; very textural. Not very good for surf, but I could see how it might work for some things. I will have to try that Weber mod, it looks easily reversable. — Top
DougForbes Joined: Mar 07, 2006 Posts: 62 La Crescenta CA.	Posted on Sep 22 2006 10:31 AM I think you may find a 220K ohm is what was specified. If you have a champ or similar low power amp you can get a pretty good idea of how hard you can drive the tank before distortion by plugging the tank "IN" to the "speaker out" of the amp. Plug the guitar into the champ and use the reverb output with your normal set up. You can find out what the tone controls and level on the champ need to be to achieve your sound. You won't have a "Mix" control unless you use a "Y" from the guitar into both the champ and the reverb input. Don't use that Marshall to drive the tank even though I know you want to so badly. Doug Top
D22 Joined: Apr 20, 2006 Posts: 2054	Posted on Sep 24 2006 09:55 AM ....3 spring reverb tank and swap out the 2-spring. Instant dripping wet, cave sound. — Top
flatwound01 Joined: Mar 03, 2006 Posts: 464 Western MA	Posted on Sep 24 2006 11:20 AM As Doug mentioned, the mod with the resister going across the footswitch jack should be a 220K value, not a 220 as I mentioned above (oops - forgot the "K"). Thanks for catching that Doug! -Dick — Fender Reissue Cap Mod Site http://home.comcast.net/~rmessick2/ Top
JeffLeites Joined: Mar 27, 2006 Posts: 343 North Hollywood, California	Posted on Sep 27 2006 12:29 AM flatwound01 As Doug mentioned, the mod with the resister going across the footswitch jack should be a 220K value, not a 220 as I mentioned above (oops - forgot the "K"). Thanks for catching that Doug! -Dick This morning I opened up my reverb and attached a 220k resistor across where the foot switch jack would go, if I had one (the grid of the recovery 12AX7 grid and ground). I used alligator clips to attach it, so I could easily do an A/B test with and without it. I could not hear any difference at all. — My Web Site - Tunes - Pictures - Guitar Projects - Hard Rock Cafe Guitar Pins Top
WR Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 3832 netherlands	Posted on Sep 27 2006 07:05 AM DGG ....3 spring reverb tank and swap out the 2-spring. Instant dripping wet, cave sound. Ive had a fender 75 with a 3spring tank, and subbed it for a 2spring. the 3spring did have more reverb, but indeed the deep cavelike sound, with less drip, while the 2spring gave faster, more attacky, sharper and esp more drippy sound. Of course it could have been the difference between those two indiviual trays. I liked the 3spring, but it had more of a spy-fi/spagetti western sound then typicalsurf. WR — Rules to live by #314: "When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is." https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/ Top
MPoppitt Joined: Apr 23, 2006 Posts: 133 Austin TEXAS!	Posted on Sep 27 2006 05:06 PM I'm a bit surprised that nobody has ever come up for a mod to do this all these years. As I understand it, the dwell control on the outboards controls the level of the signal that is sent to the pan. By turing up the dwell, you 'hit' the springs harder with a hotter level. Correct? So, what controls the preset amount of dwell in a stock Fender's reverb circuit? Is there something in the circuit that can be changed to up the level going to the tank, or is the amount of dwell available on the outboards a function of the bigger 6K6 tube? — Top
MelWaldorf Joined: Mar 03, 2006 Posts: 646	Posted on Sep 27 2006 08:52 PM Similar to what Doug said, if your Quad Reverb is stock (ie reverb on reverb channel only, not on Normal channel) you can take the reverb out RCA and run it into the normal channel. Insane, virtually uselessly enormous amounts of reverb, plus you have volume/treble/bass controls for it. I did this with a Bandmaster Reverb I used to have, good for a laugh, but I stick with the outboard tank. I imagine you could run an A/B switch from the reverb out to the stock return or the normal channel and use it for special effects. Mel Top
MPoppitt Joined: Apr 23, 2006 Posts: 133 Austin TEXAS!	Posted on Sep 28 2006 03:42 AM I have done this, and while it's nice to have volume/eq on the reverb, it works only on the back-end, 'recovery' of the circuit. The dwell works on the front-end, before the signal goes to the pan (I think). — Top
krupanut Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 492 Austin Texas	Posted on Sep 28 2006 10:11 AM Might be time to get a tank Mike.:wink: I know, I'm no real help at all. — The Thunderchiefs Top
Klas Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 2270 Stockholm, Sweden	Posted on Nov 19 2006 09:03 AM flatwound01 My tanks use a 12AT7 in the place of the 12AX7 - the 12AT7 has about 40% less gain than the 12AX7, as seems to reduce much of the "icepick" quality of my Fender reissue tank. To me, it also provides a litte more "drip" - check it out, it's a quick & easy "mod". I was interested in trying out this mod but then noticed that my reissue tank already had the 12AT7 tube. Also the paper sticker inside the tank has the 12AT7 listed as well and not the 12AX7. — T H E ✠ S U R F I T E S Top
WR Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 3832 netherlands	Posted on Nov 19 2006 03:51 PM two 12AT7's stock and on the label? that's pretty unique! — Rules to live by #314: "When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is." https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/ Top
diceophonic Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 2169 PacNW (Vancouver, Wa U.S.A.)	Posted on Nov 20 2006 01:43 AM DGG ....3 spring reverb tank and swap out the 2-spring. Instant dripping wet, cave sound. Question if I swap the old pan out of my 65 tank what would a 3 spring sound like from the current 2 spring in it now? I know you mentioned "Cave sound" "Instant dripping wet" but does that apply to a vintage circut "point to point" would the characteristics be alike to a printed printed circut board in sound or does it even matter it being a vintage circut or reissue circute the out come in the reverb 3 spring pan be the same "Cave sound" Instant dripping wet"?? what 3 spring model do you recomend if I was to do a swap, ohms etc..? I have also noticed that some reverb pans are medium delay what's up with that??? and some are not? what do current reissues and vintage reverb pans use meduim delay or??? here's a link to the reverb tank models http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/cgi-bin/mojotone/scan/co=yes/fi=products/rf=sku/sf=prod_group/se=Electronics/op=eq/sf=category/se=Reverb%20Tanks/tf=brand — -Kyle Beyond The Surf YouTube channel Beyond The Surf Instagram The Verbtones @ Instagram The Verbtones @ Facebook The Verbtones @ bandcamp Top
PhatTele Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 445	Posted on Nov 21 2006 12:22 PM The dwell in the BF and SF Fender combo amp circuits is controlled by a 1 meg resister tied to Pin 7 of the 12AT7 (see link to Pro Reverb layout as an example) http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/schem/pro_reverb_aa165_layout.gif You can replace that resister with a 1M audio taper control pot to adjust the amount of dwell "up to" the stock setting. This mod works great with the 3-spring tanks. I haven't tried going above and beyond a 1M resister in that position since "taming the dwell" is usually more of a problem than "not enough dwell." Top

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