seamoor
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 122
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Posted on May 20 2008 10:41 AM
"I don't play pyrotechnic scales. I play about frustration, patience, anger. Music is an extension of my soul..."
"Every song is like a painting..."
"People just loved the sound because I kept it simple..."
"When I start playing I'm just a rollercoaster of sound. I don't know what's coming next, I never do..."
"You know, music is sex. It's a sensual driving mode that affects people if it's played a certain way..."
Except, I would add, in addition to frustration, patience, and anger, play about mystery, reverence, enthusiasm, awe, compassion, and most importantly, metanoia...
Seamoor Glas
The Iterators
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planish
Joined: Jan 09, 2008
Posts: 473
Sackville, New Brunswick
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Posted on May 20 2008 10:39 PM
seamoor
"I don't play pyrotechnic scales. I play about frustration, patience, anger. Music is an extension of my soul..."
"People just loved the sound because I kept it simple..."
And that's where guys like Joe Satriani and Steve Vai go horribly wrong. They're like "hey, look what I can do!" Very proficient guitar players, yes, but they seem to know nothing about music.
— I'm not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on May 20 2008 11:44 PM
I think Satriani and Vai would argue that their music is about expression, not just flash. You can have both, although Vai and Satriani have horrible expression of their music. Differing schools of thought that is all.
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estreet
Joined: Mar 17, 2007
Posts: 839
United Kingdom
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Posted on May 21 2008 12:00 AM
The thing about people like Satriani, Vai and the worst offender, Yngwie Malmsteen, is that they only really sell records to other guitarists. That stuff means nothing to the music listening public. There was a 'Top Guitarist' poll on MSN lately and even with what I would imagine was a pretty young user-base voting, it was all Hendrix, Clapton, Page etc etc. in the top 10. I don't think the shredders do anything that connects with people in the way music is supposed to - it's just to impress other players, which is a pretty sad (in the true sense) concept really. I'm sure they would argue that it's about more than that but it depends what your reference is I suppose. If you don't 'get' the point of BB King's 3 notes every now and then or Bo Diddley grooving on a single chord for 3 minutes or any of those things like that which encompass the heart of popular music in a way that can only be felt and not explained - then I guess what these guys do makes some sort of sense.
— http://www.myspace.com/thepashuns
Youth and enthusiasm are no match for age and treachery.
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zak
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2728
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Posted on May 21 2008 12:40 AM
This post has been removed by the author.
Last edited: Sep 27, 2009 23:00:54
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estreet
Joined: Mar 17, 2007
Posts: 839
United Kingdom
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Posted on May 21 2008 03:07 AM
In all fairness you could say the same thing about Danny Gatton or Lenny Breau or dozens of other "virtuoso" guitar players. It's just that Satriani, Vai and Malsteen and their ilk are probably not very well liked in these parts.
Indeed, and I don't own any of their albums either. In fact I don't own any albums by a solo guitarist. I have nothing against great musicianship or even a bit of flash playing as long as it's focused into either a great song or tune. Steely Dan employed the finest players and put them to work on (mostly) sharp and to the point three minute songs. Same with Surf playing; a bit of flash is fine , but it's the melody and atmosphere that counts.
Like you say, most people want to hear catchy tunes and I do too. When I listen to music I don't want to listen as a 'guitarist' unless I switch that part of me on. The fact that I could easily play anything by the Ramones doesn't affect the fact that I'd be having a much better time listening to them than a Danny Gatton album.
— http://www.myspace.com/thepashuns
Youth and enthusiasm are no match for age and treachery.
Last edited: May 21, 2008 03:15:11
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SURFmole
Joined: Nov 22, 2007
Posts: 901
Portland, OR
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Posted on May 21 2008 03:11 AM
planish
And that's where guys like Joe Satriani and Steve Vai go horribly wrong. They're like "hey, look what I can do!" Very proficient guitar players, yes, but they seem to know nothing about music.
It's ironic that you'd pick probably two of the most trained and musically literate guitar players as an example of "knowing nothing about music" 
That would be like me saying "LeRoy Neiman knows nothing about painting"...sure...I personally wouldn't let him paint the floor of my garage (I HATE his art)...but by the same token I wouldn't imply that he's not capable of creating a great painting.
JakeDobner
I think Satriani and Vai would argue that their music is about expression, not just flash. You can have both, although Vai and Satriani have horrible expression of their music. Differing schools of thought that is all.
But do they have a horrible expression of their music...or an accurate expression of themselves? It's all art and fashion...and your tastes just happen to be different.
Personally, I'd never play a pointy headstock flourescent painted guitar with a handgrip cut into it, play through dozens of rack effects, and put on baggy shirts and eyeliner in the morning...but if it works for Steve and Joe...well, it's all cool...that's their "thing". Their music is the same way; I don't really like listening to it because it doesn't reflect my personal tastes, style, or what I listen to music for at this point in my life.
Steve Vai's already proven he can do nearly any style of music as can be clearly seen by his insane discography...he's gone from Frank Zappa, to P.I.L., to Motorhead, to Joe Jackson, etc etc. and has reached a level of mastery that's beyond what most guitarists (professional ones included) will ever reach in their lifetime. With that in mind I'm pretty sure he's playing a near perfect expression of his music.
That being said, I haven't heard Vai play anything in years that's even remotely interested me (boring whammy bar wanking with crappy overprocessed tone and multiple overdubs).
Still, I can respect those guys for the level of proficiency they've reached on the instrument...and at least Vai made a few good records w/ Zappa...and I love the P.I.L album (although I haven't listened to it in years).
zak
The irony is that I can't think of too many surf guitar players who can play any of that masturbatory longhair "shred" guitar, but I know plenty of metal guitar players that could play surf effortlessly and convincingly (I should know, I've had one for a bandmate since '97).
That fast muted triplet picking is nothing for a metalhead! 
zak
Most people who don't play an instrument couldn't care less how technically advanced your guitar playing is, they want to hear catchy songs.
I agree entirely!! The same can be said for any instrument or musical genre...people just want a good melody and want to be entertained.
— www.apollo4.com
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seamoor
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 122
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Posted on May 21 2008 07:22 AM
estreet
The thing about people like Satriani, Vai and the worst offender, Yngwie Malmsteen, is that they only really sell records to other guitarists. That stuff means nothing to the music listening public.
I'm the last person to argue 'commercial potential' as the metric for the good and the beautiful--But I think there is a lot of truth to this statement. And I hate to say it, the same can be said for ToneMonger Eric Johnson--about whom I have very mixed feelings.
Still, I think people who play a musical instrument, who take an interest in theory and composition, tend to listen to music very differently than non-musicians--with a more informed and hyper critical ear. I can't stand to listen to music as 'background music'--I would rather have silence instead. And different folks have a different 'aesthetic'. I was imprinted with that line from 'Rock and Roll Music': "I got no kick against modern Jazz, unless they play it too darn fast, and lose the beauty of the melody, until it sounds just like a symphony. That's why I go for that Rock and Roll music." Preach it, Brother!
Personally, I have always been attracted to minimalist compositions, where the less is more philosophy governs--even my favorite surf songs are in the minimalist school: Quiet Surf, and Latinia. But it comes down to a matter of taste--Pyrotechnic wanking(alone) is NEVER going to make the hair on the back on my neck stand up, and that's the metric I am always searching for...
Seamoor Glas
The Iterators
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seamoor
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 122
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Posted on May 21 2008 07:39 AM
SURFmole
Steve Vai's already proven he can do nearly any style of music as can be clearly seen by his insane discography...he's gone from Frank Zappa, to P.I.L., to Motorhead, to Joe Jackson, etc etc. and has reached a level of mastery that's beyond what most guitarists (professional ones included) will ever reach in their lifetime. With that in mind I'm pretty sure he's playing a near perfect expression of his music.
That being said, I haven't heard Vai play anything in years that's even remotely interested me (boring whammy bar wanking with crappy overprocessed tone and multiple overdubs).
You know, in Frank Zappa's autobiography, he goes on at some length about different guitarists he has worked with, and their natural urge to Wank. (Including Steve Vai--whom he also praises) He was constantly schooling them to avoid making that choice, was constantly pushing back on them to choose melody, harmony, and tasteful rhythmic resolution over an eruption of scales--he felt like he was engaged in sex therapy with youthful premature ejaculators who just could not help themselves--it was a problem that consistently bugged him, as a composer.
And you know, I've never been thrilled with Andy Warhol, but I have to agree with the sentiment 'Art is anything you can get away with.'
To me, the greatest metaphor for creative success is people running out of the theatre screaming, waking up in the middle of the night with bad dreams, fearful of the dark--cause you showed them a MONSTER. A Monster you robbed graves to cobble together. A Monster you animated by pulling down the fire of the Gods from Olympus. Who climbed up from the workbench and stomped around with arms outstretched, scaring the shit out of everybody.
We were at this art show this weekend, and there were these neo-realistic sculptures by Marc Sijan http://www.marcsijan.com/
They look exactly like people, down to the eyelashes and the pedicure. Only they don't breathe. And people were freaking out over them. They were disturbed. My wife could not look at them. She said it reminded her of the victims of Pompeii. They are haunting.
Now--THAT's ART!
Seamoor Glas
The Iterators
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on May 21 2008 08:49 AM
I believe it was implied that Hendrix, Clapton, and Page were shredders and play just to impress. I have to disagree. Those three, especially Clapton, have created some of the most melodic songs and guitar parts of all-time. Layla, Tangerine, Hey Joe, Bell Bottom Blues, and on and on.
Surf Guitar kind of sucks sometimes, just like Yngwie can, like Vai, or Dimebag. I think we are all kind of blind to that. I've bought a handful of surf CDs I really don't like.
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estreet
Joined: Mar 17, 2007
Posts: 839
United Kingdom
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Posted on May 21 2008 10:28 AM
JakeDobner
I believe it was implied that Hendrix, Clapton, and Page were shredders and play just to impress. I have to disagree. .
Jake, if you mean in my posting where I referred to these names, read again and you'll see I implied quite the opposite. I was saying that unlike Satriani, Vai etc - the work of these guys has an appeal that you don't have to be a musician to relate to - hence the public's top 10 are all 'old school' players like them and there is a complete absence of shredders like Vai et all.
As it happens, I'm not Eric Clapton's biggest fan and Page's live playing is patchy at best. But I love the guitar work on the Zeppelin studio stuff and for me, Hendrix still defines rock guitar playing at it's best.
— http://www.myspace.com/thepashuns
Youth and enthusiasm are no match for age and treachery.
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Anonymous
Joined: Nov 10, 2000
Posts: -180
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Posted on May 21 2008 05:14 PM
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mournblade
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 328
central Pennsylvania
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Posted on May 21 2008 06:11 PM
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planish
Joined: Jan 09, 2008
Posts: 473
Sackville, New Brunswick
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Posted on May 21 2008 08:57 PM
seamoor
... to make the hair on the back on my neck stand up, and that's the metric I am always searching for...
I still get that from Samba Pa Ti, Wicked Game, David Gilmore's guitar track on Kate Bush's Rocket's Tail, Zeppelin's Ramble On.
Gee - those are all pretty old.
Fortunately, I can get it from non-guitar works too, like the Agnus Dei from Gabriel Faure's Requiem, the Adagio Assai part of Maurice Ravel's Piano Concerto in G major, and quite a few pipe tunes, like Braigh Loch Iall or The Mist-Covered Mountains. (I've heard that last one played live by just four of the pipers from the 78th Highlanders, and it's much more impressive.)
Ahh, bagpipes. The first Heavy Metal instrument. 
But I digress. Sorry, all. 
— I'm not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on May 21 2008 09:00 PM
estreet
JakeDobner
I believe it was implied that Hendrix, Clapton, and Page were shredders and play just to impress. I have to disagree. .
Jake, if you mean in my posting where I referred to these names, read again and you'll see I implied quite the opposite. I was saying that unlike Satriani, Vai etc - the work of these guys has an appeal that you don't have to be a musician to relate to - hence the public's top 10 are all 'old school' players like them and there is a complete absence of shredders like Vai et all.
As it happens, I'm not Eric Clapton's biggest fan and Page's live playing is patchy at best. But I love the guitar work on the Zeppelin studio stuff and for me, Hendrix still defines rock guitar playing at it's best.
Misread, my bad. Yeah, Page's live playing is pretty patchy. Studio though... He played some great stuff, although I'm not a huge fan of the more riffy songs.
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seamoor
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 122
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Posted on May 21 2008 10:18 PM
planish
Ahh, bagpipes. The first Heavy Metal instrument.
But I digress. Sorry, all.
The definition of a Gentleman is: someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but refrains from it.
Unlike the exchange student from the Isle of Skye:
"And how do you find the English students, Donald?" she asked.
"Mother," he replied, "they're such terrible, noisy people. The one on that side keeps banging his head on the wall and won't stop. The one on the other side screams and screams all night."
"Oh Donald! How do you manage to put up with these awful noisy English neighbours?"
"Mother, I do nothing. I just ignore them. I just stay here quietly, playing my bagpipes."
There used to be this great Rock band called Rare Air that featured electric bagpipes. They had this really good Japanese guitarist, as well. They totally rocked. This was of course, after the groundbreaking work of Bon Scott with the Young brothers, so they don't deserve credit as innovators--but, for taking it beyonds its form they were awesome...
Also, I still think the best work Jimmy Page ever did was with Donovan, an overlooked and generally forgotten artist who was more influential than is generally recalled...consider Gabor Szabo's version of Three Kingfishers off his Bacchanal recording...
Seamoor Glas
The Iterators
Last edited: May 22, 2008 04:50:46
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mournblade
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 328
central Pennsylvania
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Posted on May 22 2008 04:07 AM
seamoor
We were at this art show this weekend, and there were these neo-realistic sculptures by Marc Sijan http://www.marcsijan.com/
They look exactly like people, down to the eyelashes and the pedicure. Only they don't breathe. And people were freaking out over them. They were disturbed. My wife could not look at them. She said it reminded her of the victims of Pompeii. They are haunting.
Now--THAT's ART!
Seamoor Glas
The Iterators
===>Wow, that's some creepy stuff. Reminds me in a way of that unsettling "touring human anatomy" called "Body Works," or "KorperWelt."
And don't EVEN get me started on THAT one. . . .
Vince
— Is this something you can share with the rest of us, Amazing Larry?!?
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tonybologna
Joined: Mar 06, 2006
Posts: 796
Oakland
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Posted on May 22 2008 06:03 AM
seamoor
There used to be this great Rock band called Rare Air that featured electric bagpipes. They had this really good Japanese guitarist, as well. They totally rocked. This was of course, after the groundbreaking work of Bon Scott with the Young brothers, so they don't deserve credit as innovators--but, for taking it beyonds its form they were awesome...
Oh man, my roommate listens to Rare Air. That stuff is horrible! Celtic-new-wave-rock-hybrid...
— Science friction burns my fingers.
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seamoor
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 122
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Posted on May 22 2008 07:07 AM
tonybologna
Oh man, my roommate listens to Rare Air. That stuff is horrible! Celtic-new-wave-rock-hybrid...
"I understand the inventor of the bagpipes was inspired when he saw a man carrying an indignant, asthmatic pig under his arm. Unfortunately, the man-made object never equalled the purity of sound achieved by the pig." -Alfred Hitchcock
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planish
Joined: Jan 09, 2008
Posts: 473
Sackville, New Brunswick
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Posted on May 24 2008 12:13 AM
Q: Why do pipers keep pacing as they play?
A: To get away from the noise.
— I'm not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
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November Birthdays 
we are all wankers dudes so please shut up and play yer guitar 
