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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Surf Musician »

Permalink One guitar in a band: filling the gaps?

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Need you thought on surf trio with, yes, one guitar) drums and bass.

Sometimes I feel my guitar parts (and the composition in general) lacks some fullness, power, consistency or whatever. Rhythm section is doing it best to give powerful background but still...Any hints, advice?

More attitude towards three piece arrangement? How you do this?
More chord use to fill in the gaps? What else? Notice some shortened chords here and there, like three notes in a time, what are they? What shall I read on music theory may be?
Practice harder in making more notes per second?)

I’ve tried to add a second guitar a couple of times, wasn’t bad but wasn’t this great. I feel much better in trio format and my guys too.

Thanks)

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

New Single is out!

https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single

Waikiki Makaki

https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki

Lost Diver

https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin

Welcome to the trio club. This is my favourite format for playing surf, and the make up of Urban Surf Kings, of course. Here are some tips:

Guitar:
Add chords to help fill out: chord melody, in spaces.
Use double stops, or 3 note chords to harmonize the melody
Tremolo picking (Dick Dale style) fills up space nicely
Play melodies on the lower strings for a fuller sound

Bass:
Lines using more than just the root note
Lines playing something rhythmically different than the guitar

Drums:
Use the ride cymbal in place of the hi-hat for a fuller sound.
Quarter notes on the bass drum.

Also - Embrace the sparseness.

Rev

Canadian Surf

http://www.urbansurfkings.com/

Last edited: Mar 23, 2020 16:03:14

Slacktone.
I know... you'd have to be amazing Big Grin
But boy does he (Dave) fill in the gaps.

Dick Dale, was so dominant. He IS the lead, the rhythm section follows HIM.
His big string help too, filling in she spectrum. Tons of slides, tremolo slides, noises, a lot of reverb, expressive at all times. Then, even his silences are meaningful.

Commit, you can't be a shy one in this situation.

Last edited: Mar 23, 2020 13:38:16

I struggle with the same questions. I often feel the need to add another guitarist to the band but haven't for a few reasons.
With my trio the D-Rays I'm the weak link, much of our energy is based around my wonderful rhythm section. I get caught up in watching them play sometimes!

Here I always figured there were trios because it's hard enough to get three like minded musicians together to play surf, let alone four. I can't think of a situation where a surf combo is hurt by the addition of a rhythm guitar. A virtuoso has been mentioned as the exception, but most are not that and I find listening to the trio thing a little less interesting most times. Lots of texture is missing.

My band is a two piece! Lead guitar and bass guitar. We perform to a backing track comprised of real drums and a rhythm guitar that I record and layer onto the drums.

After going through six drummers in five years, enough was enough. It's like starting over each and every time.

I love two guitar surf bands because it adds middle frequencies to an otherwise lacking sound when the lead is tremolo picking on the upper GBE strings.

However, I say that but some three piece bands are incredibly talented such as the Black Flamingos, Par Avion, Boss Martians, Surfer Joe and my favorite, The Delstroyers (who play with keyboard backing tracks).

_

Hi, I'm Gellert, guitarist for The Fintastics.

https://www.facebook.com/TheFintastics

revmike wrote:

Welcome to the trio club. This is my favourite format for playing surf, and the make up of Urban Surf Kings, of course. Here are some tips:

Guitar:
Add chords to help fill out: chord melody, in spaces.
Use double stops, or 3 note chords to harmonize the melody
Tremolo picking (Dick Dale style) fills up space nicely
Play melodies on the lower strings for a fuller sound

Bass:
Lines using more than just the root note
Lines playing something rhythmically different than the guitar

Drums:
Use the ride cymbal in place of the hi-hat for a fuller sound.
Quarter notes on the bass drum.

Also - Embrace the sparseness.

Rev

I agree completely. I play in a trio and greatly prefer that format. Yes, I do embrace the sparseness. Good rhythm players are not easy to find. Listen to Bruce Welch or Don Wilson. That sort of rhythm playing does not grow on trees.

websurfer wrote:

Here I always figured there were trios because it's hard enough to get three like minded musicians together to play surf, let alone four. I can't think of a situation where a surf combo is hurt by the addition of a rhythm guitar. A virtuoso has been mentioned as the exception, but most are not that and I find listening to the trio thing a little less interesting most times. Lots of texture is missing.

I can think of such a situation. If the rhythm player doesn’t know his stuff. One of the reasons I play in trios is that I am picky about rhythm parts. IMO, a good rhythm part is one of the highest callings a guitarist can aspire to.

TheFintastics wrote:

My band is a two piece! Lead guitar and bass guitar. We perform to a backing track comprised of real drums and a rhythm guitar that I record and layer onto the drums.

After going through six drummers in five years, enough was enough. It's like starting over each and every time.

I love two guitar surf bands because it adds middle frequencies to an otherwise lacking sound when the lead is tremolo picking on the upper GBE strings.

However, I say that but some three piece bands are incredibly talented such as the Black Flamingos, Par Avion, Boss Martians, Surfer Joe and my favorite, The Delstroyers (who play with keyboard backing tracks).

Have you been following me around? Smile That is almost exactly our story with regard to drummers. Spinal Tap has better luck. Keeping a band together is not so easy, these days.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

revmike wrote:

Also - Embrace the sparseness.

Yeah, the first though that came tome is, turn up your reverb to fill in the gaps.

_websurfer wrote:

I can't think of a situation where a surf combo is hurt by the addition of a rhythm guitar.

Bravo!!!
It can't be that hard to find a rhythm player.

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I enjoy surf trios (1 guitar), 4 pc (2 gtrs), and 5 pc (3 gtrs, like The Astronauts!). Obviously, Slacktone Dave is a wonderful player and he brings in elements like tape echo as a way to add some special sauce at times. I agree with others here that the bass player needs to explore more walking lines and help cover the midrange. The great thing about a single guitar is that there is less "frequency competition" and even lower-register riffs stand out in the mix better. At venues where the sound and/or sound engineering is less than optimal, a dynamic 3 piece can fill out a lot of frequencies yet have the space between notes that adds a different kind of depth to the music. I loved music like Rush and The Police growing up so it is quite a normal thing. There are bands like Slacktone and Messer Chups that you start asking "what the heck could a rhythm guitar do in there and make it better"...most often, you'd think "no, it would get in the way"...you just need to reverse-engineer their approach and make it your own style.

Lorne
The Surf Shakers: https://www.facebook.com/TheSurfShakers
Vancouver BC Canada

Last edited: Mar 24, 2020 00:23:47

I agree that the bassist is very important in a trio setting. If the bassist just does a simple thump ... thump-thump line, things are going to sound very empty, but if the bass line keeps moving and acts, to some extent, as a counterpoint, life gets a lot better.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

TheFintastics wrote:

My band is a two piece! Lead guitar and bass guitar. We perform to a backing track comprised of real drums and a rhythm guitar that I record and layer onto the drums.

After going through six drummers in five years, enough was enough. It's like starting over each and every time.

I love two guitar surf bands because it adds middle frequencies to an otherwise lacking sound when the lead is tremolo picking on the upper GBE strings.

However, I say that but some three piece bands are incredibly talented such as the Black Flamingos, Par Avion, Boss Martians, Surfer Joe and my favorite, The Delstroyers (who play with keyboard backing tracks).

Cool) Like Hola Ghost! band with drum machine)

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

New Single is out!

https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single

Waikiki Makaki

https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki

Lost Diver

https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin

revmike wrote:

Welcome to the trio club. This is my favourite format for playing surf, and the make up of Urban Surf Kings, of course. Here are some tips:

Guitar:
Add chords to help fill out: chord melody, in spaces.
Use double stops, or 3 note chords to harmonize the melody
Tremolo picking (Dick Dale style) fills up space nicely
Play melodies on the lower strings for a fuller sound

Bass:
Lines using more than just the root note
Lines playing something rhythmically different than the guitar

Drums:
Use the ride cymbal in place of the hi-hat for a fuller sound.
Quarter notes on the bass drum.

Also - Embrace the sparseness.

Rev

Thanks a lot! By the way, your band is one of our favorites from the time we started a band in mid 2000th)

Last advice is brilliant, man!

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

New Single is out!

https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single

Waikiki Makaki

https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki

Lost Diver

https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin

Thoughts on using a looper? Any shame in it?

Our last practice was as a three piece and that was caused by a corona virus quarantine. What I discovered was that tempos needed to be brought up, the drummer added sonic excitement with much more splash/crash cymbal rhythms and I picked out music that had much more trem picking. For instance, we cover Journey to the Stars in a Ventures tempo but moved to a MOAM version and played as fast as we could. Very fun and very full!

The Kahuna Kings

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kahuna-Kings/459752090818447

https://thekahunakings.bandcamp.com/releases

I don't think is necessary to fill every hole. Space in music is key - too much music these days doesn't have any. Embrace the space!

The great thing about a single guitar is that there is less "frequency competition" and even lower-register riffs stand out in the mix better. At venues where the sound and/or sound engineering is less than optimal, a dynamic 3 piece can fill out a lot of frequencies yet have the space between notes that adds a different kind of depth to the music. ... There are bands like Slacktone and Messer Chups that you start asking "what the heck could a rhythm guitar do in there and make it better"...most often, you'd think "no, it would get in the way" ...

I think these are important points. I also play pedal steel guitar in various contexts. To me, that type of clean, spacious, twangy sound that shares much with surf guitar sounds, really shines in a spacious musical environment. Someone asked on another thread why I love surf music - that's one of many aspects that has always attracted me.

I think the guitarist who probably, to me, best embodied the ability to do everything in a trio format was Jimi Hendrix. I know, not surf music. And I know, lots of the studio stuff had him layering guitars, expanding his sound using effects, and so on. But I still learn things listening to him that I can apply to any style of music, even 50+ years later.

The Delverados - surf, punk, trash, twang - Facebook
Chicken Tractor Deluxe - hardcore Americana - Facebook and Website
The Telegrassers - semi-electric bluegrass/Americana - Facebook

Sonic_Blue wrote:

Thoughts on using a looper? Any shame in it?

while playing live? Dont no, never tried one.

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

New Single is out!

https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single

Waikiki Makaki

https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki

Lost Diver

https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin

stratdancer wrote:

Our last practice was as a three piece and that was caused by a corona virus quarantine. What I discovered was that tempos needed to be brought up, the drummer added sonic excitement with much more splash/crash cymbal rhythms and I picked out music that had much more trem picking. For instance, we cover Journey to the Stars in a Ventures tempo but moved to a MOAM version and played as fast as we could. Very fun and very full!

Cool, David! Thanks!

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

New Single is out!

https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single

Waikiki Makaki

https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki

Lost Diver

https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin

DaveMudgett wrote:

I don't think is necessary to fill every hole. Space in music is key - too much music these days doesn't have any. Embrace the space!

this is an important point. When I first started playing in bands, I wanted to work with piano players because that gave me a solid backdrop. Now, the situation has reversed, I greatly prefer to work without any chordal instrument. The sound of a melodic instrument against a bass line.

Bach’s two-part inventions did something similar, long ago. Recently, I heard a Jazz piece on Sirius XM where it was a tenor sax and a double bass. The openness of this was very refreshing. Taking it back to Surf and the electric guitar, we have a huge advantage over most other instruments, because we can turn up the volume. We can also expand our sound with reverb devices.

The small ensemble was restricted to small rooms until the era of amplification. Big bands were big, because it took 18-19 pieces to be heard. I’ve had the privilege of seeing a big band live in a small room and I was wishing that I had ear plugs. They were LOUD! Just before WW II, Benny Goodman started featuring small ensembles in portions of his concerts. This wouldn’t have been possible in a large concert environment before the audio amplifier.

After the War, amplification made it into more hands, probably hastened by the fact that there were Signal Corps GIs had returned from the War with skills which could be transferred to supporting amplifying devices. The result was the small “combo”, which brought us more in the way of small bands of 3-5 pieces in Jazz, Blues, Country, and the developing Rock n’ Roll. Music changed and the idea of keeping a song going with a small ensemble came into its own.

In the Big Band era, rhythm guitar was a specialty and a good rhythm player would not find himself out of work. Freddie Green was the pulse of Count Basie’s orchestra for a very long time. In the amplified era, rhythm guitar changed somewhat, but IMO, it is still a skill that takes time to develop. Bruce Welch, of the Shadows, was a powerful rhythm player, as on example. Barry Gibb of the BeeGees wast another. Such players don’t just play a chord by the right name, but also voice their chords to fit well with one another so that the overall sound is even and chords stay within a consistent pitch range. You won’t find that level of skill standing on just any street corner.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

This is only my opinion, but I believe a good gretsch guitar works best in a 3 piece. In fact I don't like it at all in 4 piece bands, but it's awesome (in the true sense of the word) when it has the sonic space to do it's thing.

Danny Snyder

Latest project - Now That's What I Call SURF
_
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

I'm back playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

DannySnyder wrote:

This is only my opinion, but I believe a good gretsch guitar works best in a 3 piece. In fact I don't like it at all in 4 piece bands, but it's awesome (in the true sense of the word) when it has the sonic space to do it's thing.

yes when I play Gretsch I surely fill more space sonically as well) but it lacks the clear punch of a strat.

image

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

New Single is out!

https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single

Waikiki Makaki

https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki

Lost Diver

https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin

Last edited: Mar 25, 2020 04:51:31

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