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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Surf Musician »

Permalink How do you write a surf song?

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Well Big Band drumming is a big part of The surf genre being it was really the only music to learn from on a drum kit basically invented in about 1911 (Dixieland Music). Before that each drum was played by a different musician etc...Big band players were the first to use the drum kit effectively (Even double bass (Louie Belson). Anyway most music teachers in the late 50's and early 60's were big band fans and players (most out of bands by then)...all the floor tom drumming on surf is big band style drumming

Ok many songs were inspired by Big Band numbers - I Am The Breeze, Slaughter On Tenth Avenue and When The Angels Sing etc. . (these were originally reworked Big band numbers)- Starting leads on the 5 (That's big band Swing - So many influences - My God sax players were did that come from? - Surf Music is a hybrid yes but Big Band was a huge influence. Lawrence Welk sold more Fender Guitars then any Surf Band ever did by getting a sponsor deal and having one on his show every week. Neil Levang had the most influence on guitar players because he played every model Fender had every week and kids ran out and bought one. - Who's your daddy hodad - Ok Duane Eddy too Big Grin But Duane Eddy's influence was Les Paul and he was a Big Band guitarist originally. Many Surfers reverse engineered Les Pauls records (The Ventures etc) I know The Ventures weren't surf but they influenced most bands in the genre.

I have never seen in any rock music book ever mention Neil Levang as an influence to anyone and he made Leo Fender millionaire in like matter of a few years. This guy was on TV every week - never mentioned in the history.

Last edited: Jan 22, 2019 22:40:09

Lawrence Welk sold more records and LP's than any other artist till The Beatles showed up (Even Elvis). So to be on this show either as a guest or commercial or product plug was a big deal back in the 60's.

Last edited: Jan 22, 2019 20:15:35

Brian wrote:

I've heard the classic surf beat as being described as "two on the two".

Yeah I had that backwards but the one I mentioned is used a lot too. But its in like half the hundreds of songs I studied. Usually combined with other patterns - But this is like the most used.

It should be used to start a new song being its such a big part of Surf as a backing track

Last edited: Jan 22, 2019 19:44:10

There's lots of great, and highly disparate advice here, which just goes to show there's no right way to do it. Whatever works for you!

I'll add one trick I've liked to employ: I like to focus on a particularly impactful moment that stands out from a given song (certainly doesn't have to be surf by any means). Find something that really hooks your ear, then identify what it is about that event that grabs you and try to recreate it and expand upon it. It could be a compelling chord change, an impactful rhythm accent, maybe a sudden change in dynamics, whatever. Then come up with a section of music that mirrors that vibe and you'll immediately have some sort of compelling hook or even a definitive moment around which to build your song. Usually you don't want to start with that moment right out of the gate, which means you'll construct your song to lead through or up to that moment. That'll force you to engage in more thoughtful song arranging than simply stringing riffs together one by one, and you'll produce much more emotionally dynamic music. Couple this with Danny's advice to start with chords and you'll have a lot of control over the direction of your song.

There is a definite evolution of a song's development - much like a rough draft as a novel writer (all the arts are like that) Its called idealization - it grows like a snow ball - and usually many takes later there is a song. I know one thing that all the different drum patterns are hooked together so it fits the groove of the song or vise versa. And you have to have one instrument play and pulse for the song or share duties as a band taking turns doing that etc. That's vital to any song keeping the groove going between the drums or bass lines (They have to fit together - a true art form.) The Surfer Beat is big in surf music because the rhythm is accented on the double snare part on the 2 etc....accenting is a lost art now too. That foot tap thing that people want to get up and dance. There is all kinds of ways to write a song, but when its done it should groove. All that Euro-Dance stuff now just seems like drum-loops well arranged into a groove. I read book that all number 1 hits have that pulse thing going on cymbals or bass or drum or guitar etc (could be any instrument). That's very important evidently.

I think vamping is a big part of good songs and accented notes on all the instruments (Ok this could be a pulse devise too). That's seems to be a lost art. To me you have to have the lows to have the highs in a song or it gets boring even if the playing is good. There something about dynamic accented drumming and the like that makes a song cook. I'm no expert but starting to realize that's a very important part of performing accenting notes.

Then there is reverse engineering of old tunes like this version from 1946 …...and the one below was from 1927 - I never heard this one before now....but you can remake old music - everybody else did - Why not now?

Last edited: Jan 22, 2019 23:10:41

Those versions are awesome!! I love all the “extra” notes in there, and that crazy rhythm.

Yes! Adapting minor key folk songs to me, seems like the best use of surf. (Other than original compositions that are as dramatic!)

https://www.facebook.com/bloodreefsurf/
https://bloodreefsurf.bandcamp.com/releases (nothing official yet, just some badly mixed snippets from practice)

Last edited: Jan 23, 2019 10:06:56

Yeah its neat to here earlier versions of tunes used in Surf Instrumentals from the 60's. Readers Digest had 85 box sets (10 records per box) with tons of music like this in them. If every surf band covers just one record there wouldn't be enough bands to cover it all. Lots of cool melodies that would make really cool covers in the Surf style etc.

I have not tried it yet being I have like 10 hrs of music on my flash drive. After a while you forget songs CD's ago after a while there is so much to remember, so may be this genre doesn't need anymore covers etc.

But if a band has writers block and being these old tunes could be remade into hipper versions with surf sound etc, many younger people in a audience might not even realize its old recycled music and accept it as new music. Even late 1960's band like The Doors used Bach and a few other classical composers as inspiration for ideas for songs etc . So many cool riffs and melodies. Many times old music takes on a new life just like Misirlou did with Dick Dale and many other groups. I think the song goes back to the 1880's, even though the first recording was in 1927.

This Big Band version from 1941 is interesting - I can see where other songs arranged like this could be converted to instrumental surf similar to what Dick Dale did as a example.

Last edited: Jan 23, 2019 20:34:06

The tie in of Big Band to Surf is interesting.

I was born in ‘54, always loved music and always took note of different musical styles, even from an early age. I am the youngest child of a mother and father who were a bit older when I was born and who grew up on Big Band music and, I think, always believed it would come back someday. (I wish my father could have lived long enough to hear the Brian Setzer Orchestra.) Between Big Band era parents and a sister 8 years older than I, my exposure to music was precocious. I heard Duane Eddy in real time and remember when Surf music first started to gain airplay, even though we lived nearly 2,000 miles from LA.

The SoCal Surf scene was big, there’s no denying that, but it happened in a much broader context. Henry Mancini was big in the early ‘60s and he loved using areverb drenched guitar with lots of tremolo in his pieces, along with Tic Tac bass doubled over the bssist’s line and played on a Dano VI, a Fender Bass VI or a normal guitar, but utilizing the lower strings, ala Duane Eddy.

Lawreance Welk was making the Top 40 into the early ‘60s and, you’re right, he probably paid for at least 25’ of Leo’s yacht because of Neal Levang’s use of Fender products. Smile From the perspective of my age group, and even more so from the perspective of persons younger than I, Welk was very old school, but he actually had a keen sense of what pleased a broad audience and delivered the goods.

I understand the role of Surf music and love the original recordings, but there were a lot of other people using electric guitars with lots of reverb and the occasional bit of tremolo. The Ventures were the tip of the iceberg. My parents listened to what would be considered an adult contemporary station (in today’s terms) and there was a lot of instrumental guitar music being played. The sound was probably closer to The Ventures, than it was to the Jaguar through a 6G15 and into a Showman sound of the hardcore Surf players, but it was definitely a byproduct of the Surf music scene. A 1962 movie with Jimmy Stuart entitled Mr. Hobbs Takes A Vacation, has all sort of instrumental fills with a reverb laden guitar with a fast tremolo playing the lead. I believe Mancini wrote that score.

All music exists in the continuum of time. The Beatles didn’t come out of nowhere, they sprang from Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Little Richard and Buddy Holly. The Beach Boys sprang from The Four Freshman and likely, some doo-wop influence. Surf music came along after Duane Eddy and Lonk Wray, both of who’ve used the power of the electric guitar as a major selling point of their music. I promise you, most of these guys had listened to Les Paul, and likely to Charlie Christian, possibly even Django Reinhardt. (Django would have been a Surf monster.)

I agree completely, Big Band drumming was likely part of the picture, as well. Listen to Benny Goodman’s Sing, Sing, Sing for a good example. Gene Krupa and Louie Bellson were both absolute monsters and not particularly shy about their playing. I’d venture that more than a few First Wave Surf drummers had worn some Big Band records thin, copying these cats. I wonder how many Surf tracks had Hal Blaine on drums.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.
My Guitar WebSite
Dead Thread

Django playing surf... utterly mind blowing to think about!!!!

Synchro, thank you for posting so thoughtfully!

Some instrumental big band music I have heard felt like rearranged folk songs, like that version of miserlou. My understanding is that Miserlou, and a billion other folk songs, are all SUPER old. But there’s no way to know how old or exactly where they came from.

The bottom line for me is that there are PLENTY of awesome dramatic surf songs that are begging to be arranged and played. I mean, rather than playing something hundreds of other surf bands have played!

https://www.facebook.com/bloodreefsurf/
https://bloodreefsurf.bandcamp.com/releases (nothing official yet, just some badly mixed snippets from practice)

Here's a great example...

Danny Snyder

aka El Viejo Gringo of Combo Tezeta
aka Mycroft Eloi of The TomorrowMen
aka Shecky Shekels of Meshugga Beach Party

I want buns of steel. But I also want buns of cinnamon.

synchro wrote:

I wonder how many Surf tracks had Hal Blaine on drums.

Yeah I grew up under the same conditions (older parents) My dad was a big band fan - saw them all live in the 1930's and 1940's - Glenn Miller - Charlie Barnet - Woody Herman - Benny Goodman (with Gene Krupa) in 1935 etc. I have like a 100 big band LP's I collected at Goodwill plus what my father had. Many I bought for 50 cents. Nobody now wants these. I think the same thing will happen to Surf. I have a lot of Christmas albums too you never hear much as well.

I don't think Big Band arrangements would work if not filtered through the traditional Surf Style like Dick Dale and The Deltones did. - Ok there is debate on that or what Surf really is as a genre. I think its definitely Big Band drumming with Melodies just a little dumbed down with lots of reverb. Usually the tunes are much shorter and many parts or variations taken out of the original arrangement to make it work right (that's just my opinion). Tempo is usually higher in the 130 to 140 bpm - Too fast or too slow doesn't seem to work I think anyway. But there are thousands of songs out there is storage never played for a long while. It all needs to be modernized some how I think. Its harder for me to play slower for some reason - I'm more like the fast guys by nature - I catch my self over doing it listen wise - it just sounds to fast. So I am aware of as a lister they like slower than player does I think. I'm working on that.

As far as song writing goes it takes a lot of experience to do that, and you have to have all the musical components just right or have taste that large groups of people will like. What I found is the songs I think are the songs most people like are incredible easy to play or not that fun for the player. Like Wipeout people go nuts and its the easiest song for me. There again the drum solo adds a lot - its a balance in the end. It seems like all the easy must is what most people like the most. And people don't care how hard you worked on a song and all that, they just want to have a good time etc. I think dance tunes are a way to go myself - Do people even dance anymore lol

Yeah I think Hal Blaine said once he is on 30,000 recordings - all the Beach Boys material (that's a lot). About half of Surf Instrumentals were played by Studio players in reality.

Last edited: Jan 25, 2019 12:41:56

This sounds alright I can tell you spent some time - that's pretty much what I had in mind - did you try different takes and Tempos ? Be neat to hear alternate mixes and arrangement changes. In studio work they usually picked the best sounding as listener by recording dramatically different arrangements etc etc. The only example I can remember is on The Surf Teens - Surf Mania CD they put both versions of a song. I like the original on the LP best. Neat to hear - so they did pick the best.

DannySnyder wrote:

Here's a great example...

I could detect absolutely no difference between those two recordings. Smile

Thanks for posting that Danny. Django was sort of a Dick Dale sort of character; larger than life and willing to take some risks musically. If you keep in mind the context of the times, he was about as avant garde as possible. In the Django bio I read, it said that he absolutely trashed his Manouche style guitars, because he played so aggressively. That sort of reminds me of Dick Dale trashing amps until Leo built a battle tank that could stand up to Dale’s playing.

It would be interesting, had Django lived longer, to see how he would have adapted to the changes in the music world. I doubt that he would have ever gone Surf, but I think it’s quite possible that he would have embraced reverb and tremolo.

The Kilaueas sounded great, BTW. I think that they used drip to great effect in that tune.

Surfing_Sam_61 wrote:

synchro wrote:

I wonder how many Surf tracks had Hal Blaine on drums.

Yeah I grew up under the same conditions (older parents) My dad was a big band fan - saw them all live in the 1930's and 1940's - Glenn Miller - Charlie Barnet - Woody Herman - Benny Goodman (with Gene Krupa) in 1935 etc. I have like a 100 big band LP's I collected at Goodwill plus what my father had. Many I bought for 50 cents. Nobody now wants these. I think the same thing will happen to Surf. I have a lot of Christmas albums too you never hear much as well.

I don't think Big Band arrangements would work if not filtered through the traditional Surf Style like Dick Dale and The Deltones did. - Ok there is debate on that or what Surf really is as a genre. I think its definitely Big Band drumming with Melodies just a little dumbed down with lots of reverb. Usually the tunes are much shorter and many parts or variations taken out of the original arrangement to make it work right (that's just my opinion). Tempo is usually higher in the 130 to 140 bpm - Too fast or too slow doesn't seem to work I think anyway. But there are thousands of songs out there is storage never played for a long while. It all needs to be modernized some how I think. Its harder for me to play slower for some reason - I'm more like the fast guys by nature - I catch my self over doing it listen wise - it just sounds to fast. So I am aware of as a lister they like slower than player does I think. I'm working on that.

As far as song writing goes it takes a lot of experience to do that, and you have to have all the musical components just right or have taste that large groups of people will like. What I found is the songs I think are the songs most people like are incredible easy to play or not that fun for the player. Like Wipeout people go nuts and its the easiest song for me. There again the drum solo adds a lot - its a balance in the end. It seems like all the easy must is what most people like the most. And people don't care how hard you worked on a song and all that, they just want to have a good time etc. I think dance tunes are a way to go myself - Do people even dance anymore lol

Yeah I think Hal Blaine said once he is on 30,000 recordings - all the Beach Boys material (that's a lot). About half of Surf Instrumentals were played by Studio players in reality.

Between the Big Bands and the Rock n’ Roll era, there was a big paradigm shift. It starts with a simple question, why were Big Bands big?

It came down to volume, plain and simple. In the era of amplification, if you want the trumpet to be louder, you turn up that channel on the PA. Before the era of amplification, if you wanted the trumpet to be louder, you hired an additional trumpeter. I got to hear a Big Band live, in a Denver Jazz club, and they were LOUD.

Having so many musicians working together made sight reading a necessity, and one’s employability was contingent on being able to read well. The music business required a lot of its artists in those days, by necessity.

Amplification made it possible for a small group to play any size venue. It made three and four piece bands viable. It made Rock n’ Roll, Country and Blues bands possible. If you listen to Goodman’s Sing, Sing, Sing, it’s quite raucous and not all that far from Rcok n’ Roll, but it was still Big Band music. The advent of portable amplification meant that Robert Johnson’s music gave way to Muddy Waters and B.B. King. Blues and Country mated and gave birth to Rock n’ Roll, which could not have happened without amps.

Smaller bands meant simpler arrangements and reading became less important. Rock players were scorned for not being able to read music. There was some serious animosity in the air. When Lawrence Welk had the Chantays play on his show, that was a watershed moment. It was a vote of confidence from one of the last of the old school band leaders in favor of Rock n’ Roll. I would venture to say that he lost some viewers when he did that, but he probably gained quite a few, too. Dry few adults took Rock n’ Roll seriously, before the Beatles, and even after they played Sullivan, there were many in my parent’s generation that considered Rock as “teenage music”.

Even Hal Blaine and the Wrecking Crew were somewhat controversial. They bridged the two paradigms, to some extent. Many of these people were experienced players that had some Jazz in their background, and they brought their experience to bear upon the task of creating Pop/Rock music. Where the old school studio players had played only from notated charts, the Wrecking Crew were able to wing it. This suited the task perfectly. I have heard, also, that there were plenty of Surf and Instrumental Rock recordings which ere, in fact, played by the Wrecking Crew.

Look up the Wikipedia page on No Matter What Shape. I saw an interview where Joe Saraceno, producer of that record, spoke of having to assemble a group of musicians after the fact, to become the T-Bones, so they would have a band to send on tour. It was actually Tommy Tedesco, Carole Kaye, Hal Blaine and Julius Wechter, among others, on the record. I have also heard that at least some of The Ventures music employed session musicians. They were no pretenders, as musicians, but I can believe that they let the session cats do the heavy lifting.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.
My Guitar WebSite
Dead Thread

Yeah when The Big Band strike happened in 1948, Country and Western bands that normally play country fairs moved into the clubs normally filled with Swing bands. The Country cats had little amps not much bigger than a radio, but were loud enough to replace Big Bands volume wise. They were paid much less being most bands were made up of only 4 or 5 people verse a Big Band with 15 to 30 people etc. So club owners made more money, hence Rock-n-Roll evolved out of Rockabilly acts that considered themselves only Country and Western at the time. Bill Halley was originally a radio DJ with a Country and Western band starting out as a example. He use to play at farmer markets starting out on the weekends and even DJ work off radio for parties in the late 1940's early 50's.

The same thing is happening today in clubs - DJ's are basically taking over where I live here. All the computer controlled files and all and improvise edits on the fly is killing bands that cost 10 times more. That's why I'm going solo or plan to, you can work more - most club owners can only afford about $100 a gig here verse playinga band on weekends only $1500 to $2500 and even then only certain clubs have that capability (It's pure economics). That's why I want to develop what I'm doing just to compete with DJ's and fill a big void (most solo guy's here only have acoustic guitars etc...Boreing - I'm ready to rock the house down lol

So yeah there is a evolution of the music and modification of the way its played over the last 70 years do to amplification and technology change. Where would Surf be without the amplifiers and Spring Reverb - probably nowhere. Yeah Big bands didn't need to be louder, but Les Paul developed a Amp that could be as loud as the horn section, in fact he had a big fight with those guys being he was cutting into their solo sections etc. It all started really with Les Paul wanting to be as loud as horn sections and being able to play solo's verse just playing chords all day which was the norm.

The Ventures usually had Nokie, Bob, and Don on there early records with many of session men filling in the back ground (keyboards - drums - orchestral type stuff on the 1960's stuff. Actually session players were a big secret in the 1960's most of the radio industry didn't know most of the music or backing tracks at least were only made by like 40 people and many of the so called groups were actually fake band like The Super Stocks - Grass Roots - The Monkees - and even The Beach Boys had a lot of material performed by session players and only their Vocals put on top. (Pet Sounds). These session players would show the bands how to play the songs before tours. Most groups liked that being they had time off from touring not having to record in studio's. That's why The Beatles stopped touring essentially because they where burned out and Even Brian Wilson quit the road due to the same problem. The Carpenters always used session players for new material to give their road band a break, Karen eventually burned out from all the work load - working that hard can cause all kinds of mental problems for performers. That's primary why there were session players to make it easy on performing artists.

Last edited: Jan 26, 2019 10:49:10

The situation is ever changing. A few years ago, a friend had the last minute need for a lead player at a little Country Bar, out in the middle of nowhere. It was actually a nice venue with a large dance floor and a decent ambiance. But no one came. I'm not saying we failed to hold an audience; only 2 or 3 people even showed up at the place all night.

In part, there was a Country concert about 70 miles away and that drew some of the faithful in another direction. If there's not a designated driver available, it's risky to stop off for even one drink, given the local standards for impairment (which are quite low).

Perhaps that's the core of the problem, live music is pretty much tied to alcohol sales as a source of revenue and has been for a long time. I've always wished that there were places where people could listen to music, bring their children and not involve alcohol. I'm not a teetotaler, or anything, but I wish that music could be funded by something other than alcohol sales.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.
My Guitar WebSite
Dead Thread

Yeah only parks gigs in the summer happen here without booze and that are family oriented - depending on the band it draws like 300 people on average free concert (the City Pays). Its a nice little park with a deck like stage with a triangle sail overhead for sunny days. I go there like everyday on my bicycle - its on the water to so scenic. That's about it park gigs or private parties - its dead here in the winter. It jumps from 3000 people in the winter to about 250,000 in the summer so there are a lot of clubs closed down right now/ About 100 are open in the summer.

Theres a huge place here with three stages called Secrets - huge Disney like club on a private beach - real nice - I would like to play there someday - they get like 30,000 people in there on the weekends. Its much like a Disney type water park type thing with night-club the works - Gary Hoey plays there like once a year - all kinds of touring bands etc. . There is another nice palce here a friend knows the owner real well - He told me they look for and want solo performers the most because they have to keep the entertaiment cost down to make money. But at the same time they need entertainment (some are not that good). Its just I'm 58 now and slowing down but everybody thinks I younger than that but I still hurt easy, its the miles I guess ...lol

Last edited: Jan 26, 2019 13:17:39

I can remember the frustration of being under 21 years of age and wanting to hear live music, but not being able to get into the clubs because of liquor laws. An old friend in Denver told me that as a teen, he used to stand in the alley behind Shaner's in Denver so he could hear (Jazz guitarist) Johhny Smith play live. I turned 21 on a Sunday and had to with until the next Friday to finally get into a jazz club and hear some live music. To add insult to injury, when I was 17, The Eagles were playing nightclubs about 20 miles from my parent's home (under another name) and I could have heard The Eagles live, but I wasn't old enough to get in, or buy a beer.

From a practical standpoint, it probably wouldn't survive financially, but I would love to have a music venue where entire families could come to listen to music, where gifted youngsters could meet and interact musically and where musicians could do clinics. Something on the order of a cross between Buck Owens' Crystal Palace (but family oriented) and a music school.

Back in the nineties, a woman whose son was musically gifted, started a coffee shop with live music, in part so her son could have an outlet for his musical efforts. She brought in Jazz bands on Saturday afternoons and had musical events several times during the week. It functioned as an Espresso shop, but had great music and a reading room atmosphere. Sadly, she ended up selling her business, but for a brief period of time, there was a great little music venue in north Denver called Sherman's Coffee Shop. Coincidentally, it was just across the street from Flesher Hinton Music, an amazing old school, full line music store.

I really wish that more could be done to help truly gifted young musicians, in developing their craft, learning to play music with other gifted players and, perhaps most importantly, learning to integrate music in with the rest of their lives. If a youngster is gifted musically but has no exposure to other musicians of their caliber, it can be very frustrating. It's not just about playing, but also about not allowing music to draw them into substance abuse, etc.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.
My Guitar WebSite
Dead Thread

Can we please stay on topic?

Site dude - S3 Agent #202
Need help with the site? SG101 FAQ - Send me a private message - Email me

"It starts... when it begins" -- Ralf Kilauea

Brian wrote:

Can we please stay on topic?

Please ignore this comment and continue haha! I am utterly FASCINATED by this discussion. Synchro:

image

https://www.facebook.com/bloodreefsurf/
https://bloodreefsurf.bandcamp.com/releases (nothing official yet, just some badly mixed snippets from practice)

You can continue, but please start another thread. This thread is about writing surf tunes.

Site dude - S3 Agent #202
Need help with the site? SG101 FAQ - Send me a private message - Email me

"It starts... when it begins" -- Ralf Kilauea

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